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redstar2000
18th February 2004, 04:35
Let's begin with a "crude" observation. I've been around the "left" now for more than four decades. This is what I have observed.

As high as 90% of the participants are white males of above average intelligence in their late teens or early to mid 20s. While a few come from working class families, nearly all have parents in the "professions" -- and I don't mean teachers or social workers...I'm talking doctors, lawyers, perhaps engineers, university professors, etc. Once in a while, their parents are mid-level corporate managers, and I even ran into one once whose father was an actual "Texas oil-millionaire".

Young white women, also of above-average intelligence, constitute most of the remainder and also mostly come from a similar class background; people of color (from any class) are extremely rare.

Geographically, they mostly come from the Boston-New York area on the east coast and from the Seattle-San Francisco-Los Angeles area on the west coast. There's a smattering of folks from the mid-west and a tiny number from the southeast.

Ok, I'm one guy and there's no way I can parlay my observations into a "statistically significant sampling". In addition, I suffer under the same racist constraint that any white person does in North America...massive ignorance of the politics of other ethnic groups. For all I know, there could very well be a sizable African-American Leninist party or a thriving Chicano anarcho-syndicalist union...and I would have practically no way of knowing they even existed. The "left" media suffers much the same "white bias" as the bourgeois mainstream media.

But let's assume that I'm "roughly" right about all this..."in the ballpark" as the saying has it. How should we look at this from a Marxist standpoint?

Well, we could ask ourselves just what Marx meant when he talked about "class consciousness"? It wasn't just a "sense of identity or belonging" in his view. When he spoke of "a class for itself", he meant a class that no longer saw itself as "inferior" to the existing ruling class, but rather one that felt "class pride" and considered itself "fit to rule".

With historically brief and limited exceptions, the white working class in the United States has been conspicuously lacking in this consciousness. There have been periods of rebelliousness and struggle...but no clear emergence of that sense of "pride" and "fitness to rule" that Marx predicted.

Once in a while, a bright and self-educated white worker will embrace the "left"...otherwise, it's pretty much all "college kids".

The "college kids", now and then, beat their breasts and pull their hair over this "depressing" situation. There's much fuss made about "going to the workers" or "speaking the workers' language" or even "talking to the workers where they're at and not where we want them to be". But whether one becomes a Leninist missionary or some kind of fake reformist, the result is usually the same...the workers say a polite "thank you" and otherwise ignore the "left". There have been localized exceptions...but the pattern has remained intact thus far.

Why?

It's not all that difficult to explain the "college kid left". These are bright kids who either went to very good public schools or even better private schools. They were exposed to "the life of ideas" at an early age. Being perceptive, they "caught on" to some of the deceptive practices of capitalist ideologues and rebelled against that. Much of the "college-kid left" is very "moralistic" -- they see the world in abstract "good and evil" terms. The corporate polluter is "evil" while the militant environmentalist is "good". The corporate sweat-shop is "evil" while the union organizer is "good".

In other words, even when they call themselves "Marxists" or "anarchists", they usually don't have a real class analysis of present social reality. In their minds, it's a moral struggle between "good" and "evil".

This is not some kind of "fault" in their character or intelligence; it's an obvious product of the sub-class from which they originate. The "professional sub-class" concerns itself (among other matters) with defining things like "good" and "evil"...it's part of their job in capitalist society. The kids don't like their parents' definitions -- which are usually rather shabby rationales for corporate rapaciousness or imperialist aggression. So the kids make up their own definitions...it's what they've been trained to do.

Now and then, one will move on to a real Marxist understanding; probably more often then not, it will be one of the bright self-educated working class kids who will do that. S/he starts with a deeper understanding of what class really is, and with fewer illusions of "upward mobility".

But even s/he will run into the "stone wall" of proletarian indifference to "left" politics. And even s/he will puzzle or even agonize over "why the left can't get it right".

(It would be most interesting to do a study of working class kids who find their way into the left -- what were the circumstances in their lives that influenced them to do exactly what most of their contemporaries never even imagine.)

When does a working class develop into "a class for itself"? Can it happen at any time under any conditions? Or are there certain material conditions that must be present for real proletarian consciousness to emerge?

When a class society -- capitalism, for example -- is functioning successfully and even thriving, its ruling class is very "class conscious"...full of self-confidence, a "sense of mission", etc. At the other end of the food chain, the exploited class is depressed and demoralized -- it sees "no way out". Fatalism is pervasive and only individual "solutions" are even imaginable. This has been the situation here (with minor exceptions) since the stunning victories of U.S. imperialism in World War II.

A "revolutionary message" delivered to such a class "falls on deaf ears"...it sounds unreal, like a fantasy.

Indeed, such a message is often met with open hostility. It's the "kidnap victim syndrome" spread over an entire class. Just as such victims have been known to "cope" with their powerlessness by emotionally identifying with their kidnappers, many members of the exploited class "cope" by emotionally identifying with their exploiters.

It's not my fault that I don't rebel against those who exploit me...they are obviously superior to me in every way and are doing just what I would do if I were superior like them.

When the stereotypical "Joe Six-Pack" cheers the latest imperialist victory that he watches on the dummyvision, he's expressing the kidnap-victim syndrome.

Corporate and political corruption, increasingly common characteristics of capitalist society, don't upset him at all -- it's "just what he would do" if he had the opportunity (he thinks).

Very well, what are the material conditions that "break up" that "false consciousness" and open the working class's ears to revolutionary messages?

Clearly, the primary requirement is the failure of the ruling class to demonstrate its "real superiority". It must show the working class that it is no longer competent to rule. It must destroy the working class "faith" in "the order of things".

A severe economic crisis and/or an unsuccessful imperialist war are two "good" ways to do that; but there may be others. As the present century ages, there may be no particular defining "crisis" but rather a growing malaise and alienation of the working class from a capitalism that sputters and stagnates without ever quite collapsing.

What will happen then is that the various messages of the "left" will, perhaps suddenly, find many receptive ears where none existed before. There will be some very sharp ideological struggles between those who want to be the new rulers and those who want the working class to rule itself...and the outcome, at least in the short run, is not guaranteed.

In part, things will depend on what that "college-kid left" has done in the intervening years to move towards a Marxist perspective, to abandon abstract "good and evil" for a working class outlook. It would be helpful to try and recruit more working class kids to the left right now...as they may be the most important part of that move towards a real Marxist understanding.

And where there are, even now, small outbreaks of class struggle, we should be telling people the kind of future we really want to see...a communist future. It will sound like "fantasy" to many -- but in some, it will plant a seed.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

Red Flag
18th February 2004, 04:57
Great post comrade..

I have witnessed first hand a revolutionary message falling apon deaf ears. I get alot of "that's the way of the world" and "if you can't beat em join them" responses, as well as the always agitating "everyone has the ability to climb to the top"..

I think classism is becoming more and more obvious though, and I feel it is the responsibility of us as leftists to promote leftist ideology to the many people who are now in search of some sort of alternative.

pedro san pedro
18th February 2004, 08:19
really nice post man, i also have witnessed this happen so often it is distressing.

found it strange that you pick the upper-middle to upper classes to bring forth the most leftists.

again, i can only speak for my own experiences, but a vast majority of the activists i have worked with are older than myself (22), a majority are white (except for the guys i know working in Fiji), all are of higher than normal intelligence, and most are not from wealthy backgrounds (though it has been a very very mixed bag in terms of class) and around 75% of the people working in my current org are female (oh yeah).

i have generally found that people from lower economic classes are much more willing to help, but those from upper classes tend to be more able.

Iepilei
18th February 2004, 15:25
Just going out on a limb here. It's been in my experience that the vast support for Marxism, as a practice, tends to be amongst those who have the time and the means to read up on political theory. Ironically enough, this falls into those who have the money/time to enjoy - or those who are surrounded by it on a daily basis... the upper classes and the "college kids."

Very rare is the occassion you hear a group of labourers speak of the crisises of the world, or the plight of their fellow man in nations around the world. No, most of the time you hear them speak of chit-chatty stuff, or the latest mishap on their favorite sports programme. Influence and surroundings play a large part in the activities of the working class. If surrounded by politics, someone will be political. If surrounded by crap, people will be - well you get the picture.

These are the reasons people support the idea of an educated vanguard leading a revolution and reconstructing the goverment "for the people." A nice place where white-collars and intellectuals believe the proletariat would enjoy living. In other words, a revolution by the bourgeoise for the proletariat. But what are the ways around this problem? How do you inject politics and class awareness to a group who, in America atleast, have no desire to learn on it? It all stems back to the same problem Marxists and the left in general has faced since our struggle first began.

Unity.

Solace
18th February 2004, 16:07
You cannot inject communism, first off.

The people, including the workers, cannot be all in deep theory and we cannot expect them to master the subject. A large, very large, number of people on this board don’t. They simply can’t find interest in politics, the ol’ “It’s the way things work and you can’t change it” comes back. And this is where we have something to do.

We need to show that they are other alternatives. We need to show them the possibilities.

We need to work with the people as part of them.

A revolution can be lead with 90 % of actives and 10% of ‘passives’ supporters.

Urban Rubble
19th February 2004, 03:10
Great post RedStar. I deal with these questions every day. Literally every damned day.

I go to work in the morning and see these men, these depressed, over worked apathetic construction workers. They have been defeated. They don't think about the state of the world, or even the state of their world. They are working for a paycheck, they are working so they can have their 2 days on the weekend.

Honestly, I don't think I'm smart enough to come up with an answer. I think about it everyday and I just can't come to a conclusion. Why do these people not give a damn about politics? Why are they so apathetic to everything that important in the world ? Why can I see so clearly how I am being exploited everyday at work, but the thought never crosses these guys minds ? Sure, they grumble about the boss, their shitty pay, how they're expected to work harder, but it never amounts to anything. They just accept things how they are. The thought that something is severly wrong just never crosses their mind.

I don't know. I don't know why I became attracted to these kinds of things and I don't know why the majority of people don't give a shit.

Great post though, I know I've been a huge help.

commie kg
19th February 2004, 17:15
It is an excellent post.

I would fall into the "college kid" demographic you mention, for the most part. I am from a middle-class family, the son of a "brain worker". I am also from the general geographic area you mention (the American west coast).

I do not, however, view communism as a struggle between "good an evil." I do understand that it is a class struggle, and I have often struggled with the fact that I am not really from a "working class background". Some communists believe that this makes me lose credibility, that I am just a pseudo-leftist.

I very much sympathize with the kinds of people Urban Rubble mantiones, the proles out there working crappy jobs, just looking forward to a meager paycheck and a weekend. I do that too.

I think that alot of middle-class "college kids" want nothing to do with the social structure in which they were raised. In many ways, the suburban middle-class is very harsh on kids. When I was younger I saw how stressful my parents' jobs were, even though they are considered middle-class. We lived in a nice house, in a "nice area." Of course they didn't own the house... And still don't. And they don't own the two cars. They will be paying off bills for the rest of their life. In all probability, I will end up selling their belongings to pay the bills after they die. I don't want to live like them, to be constantly worrying about money issues, getting several loans. I just want to live.

In this way, I think the middle class is in just as much trouble as the working class. Alot of people just overlook the middle class as another group of bourgeois, but they suffer almost as much as the lower class. A whole new set of problems comes with being "middle class".

pedro san pedro
20th February 2004, 00:59
i feel that i big part of the problem is that of scale.
these are issues that, ultimately, will have to be solved on a global level.
unfortunately, the human mind is not great at seeing things at a global level (i, for example, cant picture what a million people look like, or the distance to the moon), the problem becomes to large, to overwhelming.

perhaps what needs to be done is to show people small problems in their lives, problems that can be overcome reasonably easy.
this could be a way of gradually getting people interested in politics.
baby steps

Lardlad95
20th February 2004, 01:30
Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 05:35 AM
Let's begin with a "crude" observation. I've been around the "left" now for more than four decades. This is what I have observed.

As high as 90% of the participants are white males of above average intelligence in their late teens or early to mid 20s. While a few come from working class families, nearly all have parents in the "professions" -- and I don't mean teachers or social workers...I'm talking doctors, lawyers, perhaps engineers, university professors, etc. Once in a while, their parents are mid-level corporate managers, and I even ran into one once whose father was an actual "Texas oil-millionaire".

Young white women, also of above-average intelligence, constitute most of the remainder and also mostly come from a similar class background; people of color (from any class) are extremely rare.

Geographically, they mostly come from the Boston-New York area on the east coast and from the Seattle-San Francisco-Los Angeles area on the west coast. There's a smattering of folks from the mid-west and a tiny number from the southeast.

Ok, I'm one guy and there's no way I can parlay my observations into a "statistically significant sampling". In addition, I suffer under the same racist constraint that any white person does in North America...massive ignorance of the politics of other ethnic groups. For all I know, there could very well be a sizable African-American Leninist party or a thriving Chicano anarcho-syndicalist union...and I would have practically no way of knowing they even existed. The "left" media suffers much the same "white bias" as the bourgeois mainstream media.

But let's assume that I'm "roughly" right about all this..."in the ballpark" as the saying has it. How should we look at this from a Marxist standpoint?

Well, we could ask ourselves just what Marx meant when he talked about "class consciousness"? It wasn't just a "sense of identity or belonging" in his view. When he spoke of "a class for itself", he meant a class that no longer saw itself as "inferior" to the existing ruling class, but rather one that felt "class pride" and considered itself "fit to rule".

With historically brief and limited exceptions, the white working class in the United States has been conspicuously lacking in this consciousness. There have been periods of rebelliousness and struggle...but no clear emergence of that sense of "pride" and "fitness to rule" that Marx predicted.

Once in a while, a bright and self-educated white worker will embrace the "left"...otherwise, it's pretty much all "college kids".

The "college kids", now and then, beat their breasts and pull their hair over this "depressing" situation. There's much fuss made about "going to the workers" or "speaking the workers' language" or even "talking to the workers where they're at and not where we want them to be". But whether one becomes a Leninist missionary or some kind of fake reformist, the result is usually the same...the workers say a polite "thank you" and otherwise ignore the "left". There have been localized exceptions...but the pattern has remained intact thus far.

Why?

It's not all that difficult to explain the "college kid left". These are bright kids who either went to very good public schools or even better private schools. They were exposed to "the life of ideas" at an early age. Being perceptive, they "caught on" to some of the deceptive practices of capitalist ideologues and rebelled against that. Much of the "college-kid left" is very "moralistic" -- they see the world in abstract "good and evil" terms. The corporate polluter is "evil" while the militant environmentalist is "good". The corporate sweat-shop is "evil" while the union organizer is "good".

In other words, even when they call themselves "Marxists" or "anarchists", they usually don't have a real class analysis of present social reality. In their minds, it's a moral struggle between "good" and "evil".

This is not some kind of "fault" in their character or intelligence; it's an obvious product of the sub-class from which they originate. The "professional sub-class" concerns itself (among other matters) with defining things like "good" and "evil"...it's part of their job in capitalist society. The kids don't like their parents' definitions -- which are usually rather shabby rationales for corporate rapaciousness or imperialist aggression. So the kids make up their own definitions...it's what they've been trained to do.

Now and then, one will move on to a real Marxist understanding; probably more often then not, it will be one of the bright self-educated working class kids who will do that. S/he starts with a deeper understanding of what class really is, and with fewer illusions of "upward mobility".

But even s/he will run into the "stone wall" of proletarian indifference to "left" politics. And even s/he will puzzle or even agonize over "why the left can't get it right".

(It would be most interesting to do a study of working class kids who find their way into the left -- what were the circumstances in their lives that influenced them to do exactly what most of their contemporaries never even imagine.)

When does a working class develop into "a class for itself"? Can it happen at any time under any conditions? Or are there certain material conditions that must be present for real proletarian consciousness to emerge?

When a class society -- capitalism, for example -- is functioning successfully and even thriving, its ruling class is very "class conscious"...full of self-confidence, a "sense of mission", etc. At the other end of the food chain, the exploited class is depressed and demoralized -- it sees "no way out". Fatalism is pervasive and only individual "solutions" are even imaginable. This has been the situation here (with minor exceptions) since the stunning victories of U.S. imperialism in World War II.

A "revolutionary message" delivered to such a class "falls on deaf ears"...it sounds unreal, like a fantasy.

Indeed, such a message is often met with open hostility. It's the "kidnap victim syndrome" spread over an entire class. Just as such victims have been known to "cope" with their powerlessness by emotionally identifying with their kidnappers, many members of the exploited class "cope" by emotionally identifying with their exploiters.

It's not my fault that I don't rebel against those who exploit me...they are obviously superior to me in every way and are doing just what I would do if I were superior like them.

When the stereotypical "Joe Six-Pack" cheers the latest imperialist victory that he watches on the dummyvision, he's expressing the kidnap-victim syndrome.

Corporate and political corruption, increasingly common characteristics of capitalist society, don't upset him at all -- it's "just what he would do" if he had the opportunity (he thinks).

Very well, what are the material conditions that "break up" that "false consciousness" and open the working class's ears to revolutionary messages?

Clearly, the primary requirement is the failure of the ruling class to demonstrate its "real superiority". It must show the working class that it is no longer competent to rule. It must destroy the working class "faith" in "the order of things".

A severe economic crisis and/or an unsuccessful imperialist war are two "good" ways to do that; but there may be others. As the present century ages, there may be no particular defining "crisis" but rather a growing malaise and alienation of the working class from a capitalism that sputters and stagnates without ever quite collapsing.

What will happen then is that the various messages of the "left" will, perhaps suddenly, find many receptive ears where none existed before. There will be some very sharp ideological struggles between those who want to be the new rulers and those who want the working class to rule itself...and the outcome, at least in the short run, is not guaranteed.

In part, things will depend on what that "college-kid left" has done in the intervening years to move towards a Marxist perspective, to abandon abstract "good and evil" for a working class outlook. It would be helpful to try and recruit more working class kids to the left right now...as they may be the most important part of that move towards a real Marxist understanding.

And where there are, even now, small outbreaks of class struggle, we should be telling people the kind of future we really want to see...a communist future. It will sound like "fantasy" to many -- but in some, it will plant a seed.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
...Reading this I've realized a few things

The first being that hanging around a bunch of self rightous boho wierdos all your life has given you an incredible insight to our tremendous failures to organize the working class. I too have never seen alot of socialist minroities, and I am one myself. Though I know a few, mainly remnants of the black panther era. If not the rare inner city kid who is smart enough to realize something just isn't right.

One thing I'd like to get your opinion on is how to get more minorities to hear the esseges we convey. Undoubtedly they'd be more receptive to it, however there are a few things we must take into consideration.

1. Most minorities are Very traditionalist/religious

2. Alot of minorities have a culture of anti-intellectualism, especially African-Americans

3. Coming from a 60 year old white guy, I doubt they'd believe you. Though i suppose I could do it for you..>I could be the Aaron to your Moses...my name being Aaron after all.

4. Do you have a grandaughter around my age? Like the result of some fling you had with a black milatant?

5. How can we prevent another 60's/70's movement that drives future generations away from the left?


Also from what you've seen when do most leftists sell out?

redstar2000
20th February 2004, 02:38
1. Most minorities are very traditionalist/religious

2. A lot of minorities have a culture of anti-intellectualism, especially African-Americans

Both are major obstacles, no question about it. I'm sure there are, here and there, a few bright self-educated working class kids who are also people of color...but finding them is difficult.

I've been informed (on another board) that in the American southwest, Hispanics are starting to show up at "white left" demonstrations in significant numbers...so things may not be quite as grim as I portrayed them.


Do you have a granddaughter around my age? Like the result of some fling you had with a black militant?

Flings I had many; children (to the best of my knowledge) I had none. No doubt due to my heavy tobacco use reducing my fertility.


How can we prevent another 60's/70's movement that drives future generations away from the left?

Dumping Leninism would be a good start. :D

But also we can't assume that future generations of workers will necessarily be as "alienated" from the left as was the case in the 60s and 70s.

There were a small number of cases in that era where workers actually sought us out to help them in strike or potential strike situations.


Also from what you've seen when do most leftists sell out?

When they get a really good offer...especially if it's been "sugar-coated" so that it doesn't "look like" a sellout.

Say 75k per year plus generous benefits to be an "analyst" for the "Institute for Social Change and Development". They have a "mission statement" which says they are for "all good things". Their funding is carefully disguised, passing through three or four foundations (laundry mills) to wash off the corporate stink. And they don't give you any really nasty assignments until you've been there a couple of years and gotten used to the big money.

Clever bastards.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

Lardlad95
20th February 2004, 03:35
Both are major obstacles, no question about it. I'm sure there are, here and there, a few bright self-educated working class kids who are also people of color...but finding them is difficult.

Yeah see but finding the combination is the key. you can find some smart kids of color. You can find some socially concious kids of color. But to get the whole thing is a damn hard challenge. Like I said, they all stopped existing after the black pathers...


I've been informed (on another board) that in the American southwest, Hispanics are starting to show up at "white left" demonstrations in significant numbers...so things may not be quite as grim as I portrayed them.

Good point, especially since Hispanics (what ever that eally means) is now the largest minority


Flings I had many; children (to the best of my knowledge) I had none. No doubt due to my heavy tobacco use reducing my fertility.


....Yeah right, there are hundreds of little redstars running around with no faher, you dead beat bastard



Dumping Leninism would be a good start. :D

i concur



But also we can't assume that future generations of workers will necessarily be as "alienated" from the left as was the case in the 60s and 70s.

There were a small number of cases in that era where workers actually sought us out to help them in strike or potential strike situations.

Interesting. I just hope that the result of a new movement doesn't end up ruining the left's image as those movements had. Granted I agreed with alot of them, but you guys did kinda make us all look like hippie wierdos.

Thanks pops



When they get a really good offer...especially if it's been "sugar-coated" so that it doesn't "look like" a sellout.

Guess you never got a callback huh?



Say 75k per year plus generous benefits to be an "analyst" for the "Institute for Social Change and Development". They have a "mission statement" which says they are for "all good things". Their funding is carefully disguised, passing through three or four foundations (laundry mills) to wash off the corporate stink. And they don't give you any really nasty assignments until you've been there a couple of years and gotten used to the big money.

Clever bastards.

Pfft...that is just sickening how they do that. To thinks ome people would sell their souls for such things. It would take atleast 85k per year plus a 3,400 bonus just to get me even at teh table to discuss the options. :)

STI
20th February 2004, 03:59
....Yeah right, there are hundreds of little redstars running around with no faher, you dead beat bastard

Well, the more the better, methinks.


When they get a really good offer...especially if it's been "sugar-coated" so that it doesn't "look like" a sellout.

Say 75k per year plus generous benefits to be an "analyst" for the "Institute for Social Change and Development". They have a "mission statement" which says they are for "all good things". Their funding is carefully disguised, passing through three or four foundations (laundry mills) to wash off the corporate stink. And they don't give you any really nasty assignments until you've been there a couple of years and gotten used to the big money.

Clever bastards.


Michael Moore touched on this in "Stupid White Men". He said that the Democrats let you sell out without feeling like you're selling out. You're supporting the "good guy who might win", stopping "that horn- headed Republican" (not that Republicans aren't horn- headed, they are, but so are the democrats). He went into it with more detail, of course, and it's very late, and I'm very tired.

Retro
20th February 2004, 17:13
Heh, glad i took the time to read this well thought out post. Always good to hear something from comrade Redstar.

I must concur with the above statements. People around me have just accepted things as being their fate. That there is no way to overcome the position we are in, it doesn't help that capitalists have been pushing for so long that people have been brought into complacenty.

Coming from a middle class family, with a father as a lt. colonel in the military...i've seen how things have gone with the middle class syndrome. We always had to have a bigger house, newer cars, but meanwhile putting them further and further into debt. I'll be damned if i have to take up for their debts someday in the future. But that's how they get people, you always have to be one step higher, reaching for the upper middle class area that they think will make them happy. It's almost sickening...

Capitalists say we're individuals, nay i believe this is false. We are all tied under by them, forced to be their lap dogs, serving them at their whims.

I have been having leftist ideals for the upper portion of about 6 months now, im not a master of the subject like man yof you on here, but i have the spirit.

I've found something to believe in. Something that i can fight for, that i can defend. I've never had a true belief in my life that hasn't been torn-up by family or other people. However, this is mine, this is my dream, and if i don't live to see it happen, well i at least hope that i can help educate some of the masses in my time. :D

roman
24th February 2004, 14:54
A lot of weird things have been said in this thread:

Urban rubble says: I go to work in the morning and see these men, these depressed, over worked apathetic construction workers. They have been defeated. They don't think about the state of the world, or even the state of their world. They are working for a paycheck, they are working so they can have their 2 days on the weekend.

I find this kind of funny. The poor dumb construction workers. I have known contruction workers and they all were doing very well. Construction pays well in general and is good work. Most of the construction workers I knew were able to afford really nice homes and trucks. This reminds me of another thread where someone was talking about how horrible it must be to work some “prole” job like being a Plumber. For those of you who don’t know, Plumbers make very decent money. Perhaps he was refering to temporary workers on a construction site who usually are subbed out from temp agencies or day labor. Being a temp worker sucks almost no matter where you work, of the temp jobs you can get “on a walk in”, construction is one of the best.

Lardlad says: 1. Most minorities are Very traditionalist/religious 2. Alot of minorities have a culture of anti-intellectualism, especially African-Americans…[his next post] Yeah see but finding the combination is the key. you can find some smart kids of color. You can find some socially concious kids of color. But to get the whole thing is a damn hard challenge.

Do you know how bad you sound? You can’t find any a lot of smart darkies? For your information, there is a whole history of revolutionary movements within captive nation communities, I have no doubt that YOU have difficulty seeing it.

Lardlad: Good point, especially since Hispanics (what ever that eally means) is now the largest minority

Maybe you should find out what it means, that might be a good start..

commie kg
24th February 2004, 16:27
Construction pays well in general and is good work

Wha? You may enjoy working construction, but it pays well? I've known many construction workers, and I've never met one with a "well-paying" construction job. Not unless they were the contractor, the "boss" of the construction site. That's something I don't want to be.