Read Marx to discover destruction of family values!

[Aslan]

Says Ben Carson:

''the purpose of it [the divisiveness] of course is to make people throw their hands up in disgust and say “This isn’t working. We need to move to another system.” Go back and read the Neo-Marxist literature. It’s all right there. All this stuff is not secret. That’s why I encourage people all the time to go read the stuff. You don’t have to take my word for it…Vladimir Lenin. Saul Alinsky. Karl Marx. These people laid all this stuff out.''

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/07/17/the-marxist-literature-ben-carson-wants-you-to-read/

Also what is your guys' opinions on Ben Carson? I love what he did for the field of medicine. But can this savant actually become president of the most powerful nation of the world?

[Comrade Jacob]

"OMEGERD teh familililililiy"
No he can't become president. I didn't even know he was running.

[Tim Cornelis]

How all these conspiracy theorists with their Cultural Marxism tell people to just read Marx when they've never read it, bluffing that what they say can actually be found in there. They think that's what Marx said because they've stumbled across fabricated quotes, such as those with the "revolutionary Holocaust", and take those at face value because it has a date and a source (never bothering to find the source material) -- who would lie about that after all? They then make the leap that the rest of what such people say about Marx must also be in there, so they assume it is without reading. What a nutcase Carson is with his paranoia about Marxism, Satanism, and Darwinism.

/rant

And no he's too nutty to be elected.

[Armchair Partisan]

This is a counterproductive strategy. The basic strategy to fight Marxism is to obfuscate, mystify and censor. Carson is doing the opposite and telling people to read Marx. In the end, we might even see some Republican voters develop some good sense and realize the merits of Marxism. Not many, since most probably won't bother to obey Carson and read Marx, but a few? Sure!

And hey, Carson is right - we do want to dismantle the traditional family and we do, indeed, "disdain to conceal our aims" and in that way, it is indeed "all right there". Of course, you can count on a Republican to put a negative spin on these facts.


and take those at face value because it has a date and a source (never bothering to find the source material)

This is actually a great point, and not exclusive to the present issue. I find that it is a massive problem in political and scientific discussion alike that there is simply so much information involved, nobody can reasonably hope to investigate the source and the evidence for every single claim involved - few have the time or the motivation to be so thorough, and eventually, everyone has to simply trust a few authority figures of their choice at some point and accept their claims. Am I the only one who thinks this is a serious problem in debates in general?

[Aslan]

My preferences for US presidencies (i.e which shit would you prefer?)
1. Bernie Sanders (I by no means like democratic socialism but at least he could open opportunities for grass-roots organizations
2. Jill Stein (liberal but at least anti-war)
3. rest of the shitty evil candidates...
4. Hillary clinton
5. Dr. Carson
6. Trump

[Counterculturalist]

Ben Carson is, quite simply, one of the stupidest people in the public eye today, second only to Trump himself. Unfortunately, I don't take it for granted that either is too looney to get elected.

I've tried to argue with people who are convinced of the existence of cultural Marxism, and it's beyond frustrating. Like, I've fucking read Marx, I've read Gramsci, I've read Adorno and Marcuse. I know what they fucking said and didn't say and how they did and didn't influence the world. Don't fucking try to tell me that these people said something they didn't say. Jesus fuck!

Also, these conspiracy mongers love to accuse everybody on the left of reading and worshipping Saul Alinsky. Is Alisnsky really that influential? I don't really know anybody who ever cites him. I feel like they pulled Alinsky out of their ass.

[Црвена]

Lol, "Neo"-Marxist? Stuff about the abolition of the family has been in Marxist literature from the very start. Probably just stuck the "Neo-" in there to make himself sound clever or something. Or to make Marxist views on the family sound like some sinister new development.

I don't think Carson (or Trump) will ultimately have broad enough appeal to be elected, but emotional blustering about family values and evul Marxists is probably a good way to win people over.

[Tim Cornelis]

Neo-Marxism is a real thing, it refers to Western Marxism, the Frankfurt School, Gramscianism. So basically neo-Marxism is 'code' for Cultural Marxism. So his use of it does make sense. Carson is talking about the conspiracy theory that Cultural Marxism promotes cultural decay, the destruction of the family, Christianity, nationalism, so that Marxists can take power. Neo-Marxism (the real thing) includes theories which try to explain the resilience of capitalism, such as Gramsci's theory of cultural hegemony. Supposedly, white Christian nationalist culture was immune to Marxism so we needed to erode it insidiously to win power. That Coconut Carson buys into white supremacist anti-semitic conspiracy theory should be definite proof that he is, uh, a coconut.

[Црвена]

Oh ok, I didn't know that term referred to the Frankfurt School. Thanks. I'm surprised he even bothered to vaguely familiarise himseld with cultural hegemony etc.

[Counterculturalist]

Oh ok, I didn't know that term referred to the Frankfurt School. Thanks. I'm surprised he even bothered to vaguely familiarise himseld with cultural hegemony etc.

The thing is, these people don't have any real idea what any of this stuff really means. They just repeat what they've heard other idiots say. It's an "intellectual"-sounding cover for the usual anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, and it depends on nobody in their echo-chamber ever actually reading any of these authors. Even when Ben Carson urges his followers to read these books, he knows damn well that none of them will ever bother to do so. Glenn Beck uses the same trick.

[olahsenor]

Money is the cause of family problems. Reality bites among would be immigrants to the USA where they would marry to get a citizenship visa. One friend of mine married a Mexican lady. Mexican lady does not like to sign divorce papers. So his lawful wife has to content herself with living in the Philippines with nothing.

Another acquaintance of mine has to sell her body to dirty old men to feed her family. The husband did not know about this. When husband knew, he took poison and died. And capitalism is the cause of all of these. So many victims of capitalist injustice.

[Aslan]

Injustice and inequality is the name of the game in capitalism. You win or you lose and are basking in the shitty life under the boot of a guy who worked less and got more.

[BIXX]

Money is the cause of family problems. Reality bites among would be immigrants to the USA where they would marry to get a citizenship visa. One friend of mine married a Mexican lady. Mexican lady does not like to sign divorce papers. So his lawful wife has to content herself with living in the Philippines with nothing.

Another acquaintance of mine has to sell her body to dirty old men to feed her family. The husband did not know about this. When husband knew, he took poison and died. And capitalism is the cause of all of these. So many victims of capitalist injustice.

What the fuck

[Spectre of Spartacism]

I also have no idea what "Neo" Marxism is, except to say that it seems to be a term that non-Marxists who have no knowledge of Marxist theory use to describe people who are currently Marxist. I think they use the "neo" to sound intellectually sophisticated.

[Spectre of Spartacism]

What the fuck

Non-leftist, non-revolutionary troll, meet non-leftist, non-revolutionary troll.

[Aslan]

Neo-Marxist is supposed to entail the Frankfurt School. A loose intellectual school in West Germany that opposed both capitalism and Soviet style socialism in favor of a ''reevaluated'' marxian socialism. They were old intellectuals who wanted a new style of socialism.

[ComradeAllende]

Says Ben Carson:

''the purpose of it [the divisiveness] of course is to make people throw their hands up in disgust and say “This isn’t working. We need to move to another system.” Go back and read the Neo-Marxist literature. It’s all right there. All this stuff is not secret. That’s why I encourage people all the time to go read the stuff. You don’t have to take my word for it…Vladimir Lenin. Saul Alinsky. Karl Marx. These people laid all this stuff out.''

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/07/17/the-marxist-literature-ben-carson-wants-you-to-read/

Damn...For so long I've thought that the left was too disorganized to have any effect, and yet now we're destroying the family!!!! Didn't know we still had that kind of power!!!! :laugh:


Also what is your guys' opinions on Ben Carson? I love what he did for the field of medicine. But can this savant actually become president of the most powerful nation of the world?

All I know about Ben Carson is that he's a Horatio Alger wunderkid who separated conjoined twins (although Wikipedia gave me a quick summary of his other noteworthy achievements).

As for his electability, anything's possible now. According to Real Clear Politics collection of polls, Trump is ahead with a 1% spread, but Marco Rubio (the new GOP Establishment candidate) and Ted Cruz (Trump Lite) are steadily rising in popularity.

I think the source of Ben Carson's popularity are evangelicals, while he competes with Donald Trump for the reactionary white working and middle classes. Both possess a populist and nationalistic flare that appeals to "politically-incorrect" blue collar whites, but Ben Carson has the edge (in my opinion) because he appeals to the American Dream that many whites feel is slipping away. What better way to rebuke calls for racial and social justice than to point to him, the son of an impoverished single mother, and regurgitate some bullshit about opportunity and upward mobility?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2016/president/us/2016_republican_presidential_nomination-3823.html

[Spectre of Spartacism]

Neo-Marxist is supposed to entail the Frankfurt School. A loose intellectual school in West Germany that opposed both capitalism and Soviet style socialism in favor of a ''reevaluated'' marxian socialism. They were old intellectuals who wanted a new style of socialism.

According to whom does "Neo-Marxism" equate to the Frankfurt School?

[VivalaCuarta]

Doctor Ben Carson is right! Americans should read Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin! I don't know how that phony Saul Alinsky got in the mix, it must have been a rare oversight by the good doctor! But good advice nonetheless!

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Saul Alinsky has been a rather common Republican talking point since the '08 presidential race, probably earlier than that. Because Obama spent alot of time as a community organizer, the connection was made between Obama and the 'godfather of modern community organizing', which is Saul Alinsky.

Ever since, he's been a bogeyman that's been randomly inserted into your average republican scare quote/word salad. None of them actually expect anyone to research him.

[WideAwake]

You know I am not into conspiratorial thinking, and speculations without proofs. But I think that one of the main goals, of so many anti-marxism propaganda in America is to make poor americans hate socialism as much as they can. Even mainstream celebrities who have been supporting socialism (Like Sean Penn, Oliver Stone, Danny Glover) have not been supported by poor americans. Because the anti-equality, anti-socialism, anti-state-capitalism, anti-public services, anti-food-stamps, anti-welfare services, anti-gift economy, is so powerful, that some months ago I went to a Thrifty used clothes store and I was reading a political science book that they were selling there, and the book said that equality is bad

The negative insults against marxism is all over the place in America, in classical rock music stations (many classic rock music stations who are very much into Lynird Skynird, and Southern Rock are very anti-socialism), they even make jokes about how Obama is turning USA into USSR.

Most US presidents talk in a mean way against socialism, against marxism. Like John F. Kennedy in this speech in this video, who is morally and psychologically destroying Karl Marx and Engels in this video:


UTx_9xEavbs

PS: And on top of all the anti-marxism propaganda, that we have in America, the political parties that do defend marxism in America are too underground, too unknown, too ignored by the general public. While the political parties of the left that have media power, and economic resources to reach the masses, are social-democrats, too centrists, too reformists and too far away from marxism (examples: Bernie Sanders, Green Party, etc)








Says Ben Carson:

''the purpose of it [the divisiveness] of course is to make people throw their hands up in disgust and say “This isn’t working. We need to move to another system.” Go back and read the Neo-Marxist literature. It’s all right there. All this stuff is not secret. That’s why I encourage people all the time to go read the stuff. You don’t have to take my word for it…Vladimir Lenin. Saul Alinsky. Karl Marx. These people laid all this stuff out.''

http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/07/17/the-marxist-literature-ben-carson-wants-you-to-read/

Also what is your guys' opinions on Ben Carson? I love what he did for the field of medicine. But can this savant actually become president of the most powerful nation of the world?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Jokes on him. Liberal capitalism has been destroying "the family" for centuries, remaking gender norms and obliterating them again. The need to turn poor women into industrial labor did more damage to the family than some book written by a Frankfurt school thinker.

At least it is the communist who offers new norms for the reproduction of man for our modern era.

[WideAwake]

Yeah USA is a hell for most americans. Only a few in USA live a normal life without becoming crazy. Being poor in USA is even more painful than being poor in a poor country. Because the USA has an economic and social system where social contact, relative happiness, psychologic stability, pleasures and a normal life without getting very depressed and crazy requires a lot of money. In the hell of USA, there is an economic apartheid wity cities with one part of people living a happy life full of pleasures, and the other part of cities living a life of only working, working and domestic chores and people's faces more depressed than Robin Williams and Kurt Cobain (it is not a piece of cake to be poor in America). Because for the normal function of a brain and body, people need pleasures like movie theaters, disco dancing, social activities, etc. And in America almost all entertainments and pleasures are off-limits for the americans who live in the ugly sad and poor parts of most US cities. In other countries poor people have access even to free education, free health services, parties, and fun.




Reality bites among would be immigrants to the USA where they would marry to get a citizenship visa.

[OGG]

Doctor Ben Carson is right! Americans should read Karl Marx and Vladimir Lenin!
Doctor's orders

[Ocean Seal]

I never understand why Saul Alinsky is mentioned in the same sentence as Marx and Lenin.

[Mr. Piccolo]

If conservatives want to blame something for the decline in family values, they should blame the advertising industry for promoting the idea that material goods are more important than people.

Cultural Marxism is just a conspiracy theory Rightists use to complain about social and cultural developments they don't like while absolving their favored economic system of any responsibility.

[Comrade #138672]

Who the hell is Saul Alinsky?

[Aslan]

''Several important advances to Neo-Marxism came after World War I from Georg Lukács, Karl Korsch and Antonio Gramsci. From the Institute for Social Research founded in 1923 at the University of Frankfurt am Main grew one of the most important schools of neo-Marxist interdisciplinary social theory, The Frankfurt School. Its founders were Max Horkheimer and Theodor W. Adorno whose critical theories had great influence on Marxist theory especially after their exile to New York (Columbia University) after the rise of National Socialism in Germany in 1933.''

It's a real thing. Although its mostly found in campuses and subscribed only by a bunch of old intellectuals these days.

[ComradeOm]

''Several important advances to Neo-Marxism came after World War I from Georg Lukács, Karl Korsch and Antonio Gramsci. From the Institute for Social Research founded in 1923 at the University of Frankfurt am Main grew one of the most important schools of neo-Marxist interdisciplinary social theory, The Frankfurt School. Its founders were Max Horkheimer and Theodor W. Adorno whose critical theories had great influence on Marxist theory especially after their exile to New York (Columbia University) after the rise of National Socialism in Germany in 1933.''

It's a real thing. Although its mostly found in campuses and subscribed only by a bunch of old intellectuals these days.Except that none of the above described themselves as a 'cultural Marxist' or 'neo-Marxist'. Lumping them all together into one vaguely defined school is typically either extreme reductionism or right-wing conspiracy wank. When Carson describes gay marriage as a 'neo-Marxist plot', for example, then he's probably using it in the latter sense.

Edit: Wow. Only two active threads today in Politics, as of writing. Tumbleweed.

[odysseus]

Honestly I am not all that concerned about Carson, or Trump. Primary voters in the US are a crazy bunch, and i am not to sure either will win the primary, but I am assured ni the knowledge there's no way in hell they'd ever win in a general election. But as long as some people are curious enough to actually read Marx, and not read conservative blogs about marx, then w/e. Good for us.

[RedMaterialist]

Here is Marx on the family (from the Communist Manifesto:


Abolition [Aufhebung] of the family! Even the most radical flare up at this infamous proposal of the Communists.

On what foundation is the present family, the bourgeois family, based? On capital, on private gain. In its completely developed form, this family exists only among the bourgeoisie. But this state of things finds its complement in the practical absence of the family among the proletarians, and in public prostitution.

Supposedly about 60% of all "families" are headed by single mothers. And then you have same sex marriage, gay/lesbian parents, etc. The bourgeois "family" is definitely, as Marx predicted, being abolished, not by Lenin, but by Keynes.

[Rafiq]

I fail to see how it is different: You will definitely not find many single mothers among the bourgeoisie. The bourgeois family is not being destroyed - at a practical level - it has simply underwent destruction among the working class.

But we must ask the question: To what extent was the sexual revolution, and the destruction of the nuclear family owed to its incompatibility with the conditions of life of the American proletariat?

What you say is ironic because it was precisely the rise of neoliberalism that coincided with the destruction of the family (among ordinary people), the nuclear family never enjoyed so much of a basis of existence among the proletariat as in immediate post-war American society. This era is over.

Many will talk about the destruction of "family values", but to what extent did"family values" actually prevail among ordinary people before WWII?

[RedMaterialist]

I fail to see how it is different: You will definitely not find many single mothers among the bourgeoisie. The bourgeois family is not being destroyed - at a practical level - it has simply underwent destruction among the working class.

But isn't that Marx's point, that the "bourgeois" family no longer exists among the working class, if it ever did?


But we must ask the question: To what extent was the sexual revolution, and the destruction of the nuclear family owed to its incompatibility with the conditions of life of the American proletariat?


I think it was that capitalism needed everybody in the working class to participate fully in commodity production which meant that minorities, women and gays had to be allowed to expand their own freedom to be fully part of the economic system. A sexually or racially suppressed worker is not a happy worker. On the positive side those former suppressed workers are now at least positioned to develop a working class consciousness. Bernie Sanders has a lot of support among single moms, on the other hand Kaitlyn Jenner is still a Republican.

The bourgeois family became incompatible with the bourgeois family when women were forced (or allowed) to leave the family home to work, when working men no longer were able to support their traditional family.



Many will talk about the destruction of "family values", but to what extent did"family values" actually prevail among ordinary people before WWII?

Certainly not as prevalent as the American myth of "family values" would have people believe. You can imagine the physical and sexual abuse on the idyllic American family farm in the early 20th century.

[VivalaCuarta]

The family does exist in the working class under capitalism. Women are still forced by society to carry out the unpaid, unproductive labor of reproducing the working class. This special role, and the ideological and legal edifice that justifies and regulates it, are the basis of the systematic oppression of women. There are severe penalties, de jure and de facto, for biological parents (especially women) who abscond from their solemn duties in this regard.

That this family doesn't look like its ideal representation in bourgeois ideology should not be surprising, nor, as Marx observed, is it new to the 21st century.

[Synergy]

Ben Carson's ship is going to be sinking really soon, me thinks. He's way too crazy and has a history of lying about his own life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22ZOuq-uRQc

[Aslan]

And down goes Ben Carson....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BepyTSzueno