Self-Determination

[Servia]

Did Vladimir Lenin violate his own principle of national self-determination by taking over Belarus and Ukraine?

Also, does Rosa Luxemburg support the invading of other nations to establish socialist states?

[Guardia Rossa]

1.1: No, first that he didn't exactly invade, there were many bolcheviks in ucraine, in fact (Trotsky and Bukharin were ukranian I think. Might re-Google that) He just aided his comrades in their socialist revolution (Just as he wanted to get to Germany through Poland, aswell as aid the few Polish communists and bolsheviks).

And 1.2: National self-determination isn't the right to a nation choose to have or not have a exploitative bourgeoisie. As we both know, no one has a choice in that matter (And even if they did, the Bourgeoisie and it's thralls wouldn't accept it). National self-determination is the emancipation of each and all opressed nations in a revolutionary federation, and this concept is older than Communism itself.

2: Any communist does. Lenin would invade nations and stabilish a revolutionary nation there, under the federation of revolutionary states (USSR, in the case)
Rosa would be against this and would make a single nation. I don't know how, haven't read much of Rosa's works.

Any questions, ask away. I'm a newb too, this answer is only 'till someone with dat Rep get's here.

[cyu]

Decide for yourself what is proper self-determination. Don't rely on what dead theorists say. Sure you can take their advice, but don't treat them as infallible.

Anarchists would tell you that's what the "self" part of self-determination means.

Marx would tell you to create a new synthesis from the thinkers you like, but it's still the same process in the end ;)

[Heilmann]

2: Any communist does. Lenin would invade nations and stabilish a revolutionary nation there, under the federation of revolutionary states (USSR, in the case)
Rosa would be against this and would make a single nation. I don't know how, haven't read much of Rosa's works.

Uh, what?

[Guardia Rossa]

Uh, what?

If there is a revolutionary situation in a country, there is no why not to aid the revolutionaries.

[Spectre of Spartacism]

Like all rights, Lenin contextualized the right of nations to self-determination in relation to the class struggle. It was not an inviolable right handed down from God or his Tsar.

[Khalistani]

I'm told by a lot of people on this forum who claim to be Communism that Communism no longer supports National Liberation.

Is this true, and if so, what is the meaning of this? Why did Europe deserve liberation while we deserve to be forced into an arranged marriage with an abusive husband?

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Decide for yourself what is proper self-determination. Don't rely on what dead theorists say. Sure you can take their advice, but don't treat them as infallible.

Anarchists would tell you that's what the "self" part of self-determination means.

Marx would tell you to create a new synthesis from the thinkers you like, but it's still the same process in the end ;)

Probably the best answer you're likely to get here. The national liberation thing is somewhat problematic considering situations like Israel which could argue that under such pretenses but then you have legitimate claims like Ireland, Scotland, Palestine, Kurdistan, and what not. But this also could just mean a perpetuation of the capitalist mode of production so under a domestic figurehead instead of a of a foreign neo-colonial one so what's the point, huh, tricky subject I think.

[Khalistani]

Probably the best answer you're likely to get here. The national liberation thing is somewhat problematic considering situations like Israel which could argue that under such pretenses but then you have legitimate claims like Ireland, Scotland, Palestine, Kurdistan, and what not. But this also could just mean a perpetuation of the capitalist mode of production so under a domestic figurehead instead of a of a foreign neo-colonial one so what's the point, huh, tricky subject I think.

I understand that the way the Jews did Israel was completely wrong, but do Jews still not deserve self-determination, especially considering their own long and arduous history of persecution?

I am curious as to your opinion on this.

[Blake's Baby]

... does Rosa Luxemburg support the invading of other nations to establish socialist states?

I can't think of a single passage that Rosa wrote that would be capable of being interpreted as support for an invasion by a 'Red Army', but then again, there wasn't really a Red Army when Rosa wrote.

I think she would have looked at what happened in the war between Poland and the USSR between November 1918 and March 1921 and conclude that you can't export revolution at bayonet-point, had she not been murdered in January 1919, about 6 weeks after the war began.

[Burzhuin]

Did Vladimir Lenin violate his own principle of national self-determination by taking over Belarus and Ukraine?

Also, does Rosa Luxemburg support the invading of other nations to establish socialist states?
I am not familiar with Rosa Luxemburg works. So I have no idea if she ever came with that idea.

But I am familiar with Belarus Ukraine situation, since it was native land of my parents. And I heard a lot of tales. Here are the choices they have: their own, Belarusian, Soviet government or Polish occupation. What would you chose? My grandfather fought Polish occupation till 1927. And he was not the only one. So I would not blame Lenin for listening people.