Those crazy college republicans

[Soul Rebel]

College Republicans offer whites-only award


- - - - - - - - - - - -
The Associated Press



Feb. 15, 2004 | BRISTOL, R.I. (AP) -- A student group at Roger Williams University is offering a new scholarship for which only white students are eligible, a move they say is designed to protest affirmative action.

The application for the $50 award requires an essay on "why you are proud of your white heritage" and a recent picture to "confirm whiteness."


"Evidence of bleaching will disqualify applicants," says the application, issued by the university's College Republicans.

Jason Mattera, 20, who is president of the College Republicans, said the group is parodying minority scholarships.


"White kids are at a handicap," Mattera told The Providence Journal. "Handing out scholarships based on someone's color is absurd."

The stunt has angered some at the university, but the administration is staying of the fray. The school's provost said it is a student group's initiative and is not endorsed by Roger Williams.

Mattera, who is of Puerto Rican descent, is himself is a recipient of a $5,000 scholarship open only to a minority group.

"No matter what my ethnicity is, I'm making a statement that scholarships should be given out based on merit and need," he said.

It's not the first brush with controversy for the group. The school temporarily froze the Republicans' money in the fall during a fight over a series of articles published in its monthly newsletter. One article alleged that a gay-rights group indoctrinates students into homosexual sex .

[Osman Ghazi]

Would this Mattera be open for the scholarship?
i.e. would he be considered 'white'?

[Stapler]

What?

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Well, I agree with the Republicans on that issue. Private organizations are just as entitled to give a scholorship to a minority group as the Republicans are to a white kid. However, I don't think anyone should be able to give a scholorship purely on the basis of someones race. That can turn into a real circus, like affirmative action. Granted, without it, colleges would turn real white and masculine, real fast. But do you give a white man who is .01% black the same affirmative action benefits as a man who just came off the boat from Somolia? Should you recognize a transexuals status as a man/woman for such benefits? Perhaps someone with blood from all different races could make a tidy fortune on this. Or do you start excluding people because they aren't black enough, or they are "tainted"? I don't see people rushing to give scholorships to ugly people, or to people who have a low IQ. They are discrimated against by the system too, but yet they receive no support. Affirmative action is nothing more then a half-hearted attempt to make a fucked up system like this try and seem a little less discrimatory. I think college education should be free, and they should have to take anyone no matter what their race, IQ, or anything else. If you are willing to do the work, and can pass the test, then great, if not, then try again, or cry me a river.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 17 2004, 03:09 AM
Would this Mattera be open for the scholarship?
i.e. would he be considered 'white'?
Well, here's the thing with being Hispanic or Latino- statistically Hispanics and Latinos identify with being of Hispanic/Latino ethnicity, but mark off white as race. They identify more with being white than say, black. Which gets confusing because whites dont consider Hispanics or Latinos to be white. So i dont know if Mattera would be open for the scholarship. For one, it says hes of descent, which doesnt necessarily make him puerto rican.

I just find this whole thing absurd. First, the fact that they called it a "parody" bothers me. Its not funny or amusing. Theres a reason for having scholarships for minorities- they dont have the same opportunities, although the republicans deny it. Second, the fact that they think its only about being a minority is completely false. Mattera says its to demonstrate its about getting a scholarship based on merit, but minority scholarships are based on that!!! I have gotten a scholarship for minorities and it wasnt just because i was spanish, but because i worked my ass off (having a 3.4 gpa, being an activist, working within the community, working 2 to 3 jobs at a time, etc.). I earned that scholarship, it wasnt just handed to me, as Mattera suggests. Third, the fact that they need a picture is crazy!!! Most minority scholarships dont require that, so why should they???!!! Are they really going to check if someone is bleaching their skin? How much more ridiculous can they get?



MM- you know- i wish that if you were to quote me in your signature that you would write in full what i really said. By just quoting a certain thing, without the full explanation, its just ridiculous- which i guess you were trying to do. I didnt say that the GM seeds themselves caused the suicide, but that the effect of using these seeds did it---which you completely avoided mentioning. If you are going to quote someone, quote them properly.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Originally posted by SenoraChe+Feb 16 2004, 11:30 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (SenoraChe @ Feb 16 2004, 11:30 PM)
Osman [email protected] 17 2004, 03:09 AM
Would this Mattera be open for the scholarship?
i.e. would he be considered &#39;white&#39;?
Well, here&#39;s the thing with being Hispanic or Latino- statistically Hispanics and Latinos identify with being of Hispanic/Latino ethnicity, but mark off white as race. They identify more with being white than say, black. Which gets confusing because whites dont consider Hispanics or Latinos to be white. So i dont know if Mattera would be open for the scholarship. For one, it says hes of descent, which doesnt necessarily make him puerto rican.

I just find this whole thing absurd. First, the fact that they called it a "parody" bothers me. Its not funny or amusing. Theres a reason for having scholarships for minorities- they dont have the same opportunities, although the republicans deny it. Second, the fact that they think its only about being a minority is completely false. Mattera says its to demonstrate its about getting a scholarship based on merit, but minority scholarships are based on that&#33;&#33;&#33; I have gotten a scholarship for minorities and it wasnt just because i was spanish, but because i worked my ass off (having a 3.4 gpa, being an activist, working within the community, working 2 to 3 jobs at a time, etc.). I earned that scholarship, it wasnt just handed to me, as Mattera suggests. Third, the fact that they need a picture is crazy&#33;&#33;&#33; Most minority scholarships dont require that, so why should they???&#33;&#33;&#33; Are they really going to check if someone is bleaching their skin? How much more ridiculous can they get? [/b]
Make sure to answer only the easy questions.

[Soul Rebel]

Originally posted by MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr+Feb 17 2004, 03:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr @ Feb 17 2004, 03:32 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 11:30 PM

Osman [email protected] 17 2004, 03:09 AM
Would this Mattera be open for the scholarship?
i.e. would he be considered &#39;white&#39;?
Well, here&#39;s the thing with being Hispanic or Latino- statistically Hispanics and Latinos identify with being of Hispanic/Latino ethnicity, but mark off white as race. They identify more with being white than say, black. Which gets confusing because whites dont consider Hispanics or Latinos to be white. So i dont know if Mattera would be open for the scholarship. For one, it says hes of descent, which doesnt necessarily make him puerto rican.

I just find this whole thing absurd. First, the fact that they called it a "parody" bothers me. Its not funny or amusing. Theres a reason for having scholarships for minorities- they dont have the same opportunities, although the republicans deny it. Second, the fact that they think its only about being a minority is completely false. Mattera says its to demonstrate its about getting a scholarship based on merit, but minority scholarships are based on that&#33;&#33;&#33; I have gotten a scholarship for minorities and it wasnt just because i was spanish, but because i worked my ass off (having a 3.4 gpa, being an activist, working within the community, working 2 to 3 jobs at a time, etc.). I earned that scholarship, it wasnt just handed to me, as Mattera suggests. Third, the fact that they need a picture is crazy&#33;&#33;&#33; Most minority scholarships dont require that, so why should they???&#33;&#33;&#33; Are they really going to check if someone is bleaching their skin? How much more ridiculous can they get?
Make sure to answer only the easy questions. [/b]
what the hell are you talking about?

[Hampton]

"White kids are at a handicap," Mattera told The Providence Journal. "Handing out scholarships based on someone&#39;s color is absurd."


Mattera, who is of Puerto Rican descent, is himself is a recipient of a &#036;5,000 scholarship open only to a minority group.


"No matter what my ethnicity is, I&#39;m making a statement that scholarships should be given out based on merit and need," he said.

Oh the irony.


Evidence of bleaching will disqualify applicants," says the application, issued by the university&#39;s College Republicans.

That&#39;s some bullshit right there.

[Pete]

I am quite pissed off when I look for scholarships and have too look in the mirror to see whether or not I qualify.

"Applicant must be female"
- nope

"Applicant must be black"
- nope

"Applicant must be asian or hispanic"
- nope

"Applicant must be jewish" (no mirror checking here, but still)
- nope

"Applicant must be bisexual/homosexual" (see above)
- nope

"Applicant must fit this certian criteria that has nothing to do with his/her social standing or economic capibilities and thus will just smack all white males of the social status that needs scholarships in the face simply because they were born to the wrong parents with the wrong sexual tastes and the wrong sexual organ."
- damn it&#33;


Come now, me not being a minority sees this as injustice. It turns me into a minority. Is that fair? Or should we look past race, religion, and sexuality at the real problems such as income and social class? That is the question at hand. Will we perpetuate or break with the system?

I&#39;ve worked my ass off, I&#39;ve pulled off the good grades, and I don&#39;t get the scholarships because I&#39;m white? How is that fair? I mean anyone can pull the &#39;poor me&#39; control drama if they want to. It is sad no matter who does it. Fuck race, think about the real problems: social inequality. That doesn&#39;t mean excluding those deserving because of their skin colour.

I agree that the YR are being stupid. White heritage? Who the fuck cares. Live as you wish, from wherever you descend, that should NOT, NO MATTER WHAT, get in the way.

It is a parody Senor Che. You can&#39;t deny that. A sick one it may be, but a parody still.

(rambling rant rambling rant cut short by good sense).

-Pete

[Individual]

Yes.

As much as this may be discriminatory and sickening. The whole thing is a joke. I don&#39;t condone what they did. However there is no scholarship to be awarded. But merely a &#036;50 prize. Do you honestly think that they would be able to tell whether or not someone has bleached their skin? And besides that, who in the hell bleaches their skin besides Michael Jackson? Don&#39;t get to upset over this, for they did it as a mere joke. To poke fun at affirmative action.

[Anarchist Freedom]

this is funny because it just is but in a way its fine i think that all this putting one race ahead of another is bullshit there is races and we will try to put them on par ... but i think scholopships shold be open to anyone they want.




:che:


CGLM&#33; (http://www.cglm.tk)

[pedro san pedro]

Mattera says its to demonstrate its about getting a scholarship based on merit, but minority scholarships are based on that&#33;&#33;&#33; I have gotten a scholarship for minorities and it wasnt just because i was spanish, but because i worked my ass off (having a 3.4 gpa, being an activist, working within the community, working 2 to 3 jobs at a time, etc.). I earned that scholarship, it wasnt just handed to me, as Mattera suggests.

sounds like you deserved the scholarship.
i&#39;m for a dirt poor background, had to go to work at the end of my school day to support the family, do volunteer work in the community, am an activist, don&#39;t know what gpa stands for but am very intelligent, yet i wouldn&#39;t be able to apply for this scholarship.
as pete said, it should be based on my need for; and wether or not i deserve a scholarship, not the colour of my skin

[EneME]

Yes, I have to agree with the fact that scholarships should be considered on need base. I mean, someone might be of a minority race but come from an affluent family, it doesn&#39;t really make sense to give them a scholarship over a caucasian coming from a poor background. Although, I understand the intent of helping out minorities because of the reprecussions of historical racism that is felt to this day, I don&#39;t think its the right way. But, I think it&#39;s better than nothing....I&#39;d be up shit creek without a paddle myself if it wasn&#39;t for that.
Reminds me of the race based bake-sales (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,79811,00.html) I saw at berkeley...

[RED CHARO]

THE REPLYS BY SOME OF THESE COMRADES ARE SHOCKING&#33;&#33;&#33; :angry:
When considering scho;erships, or what ever, based on race, are because; - people seam to forget we are talking about a whole race (wether black, aboriginal, Latino ets. etc. ) that are under priverliged, And the children of these people (ie. the future of these peoples race), will also bee under priverliged.
Therefore when ethnic people are born in the future , they will be even more under- priverliged, than they are alrteady. Therefore alienating minoritys in 1st world countrys, to a future of poverty, becvause of how they where born, even though they where born in first world countrys.
I feal the scolership programs should bee extended to phsicatric illnesses.
This whole College Republicans &#39;white pride&#39; shit is scary, because most voters agree with it&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :angry:

[Pete]

THE REPLYS BY SOME OF THESE COMRADES ARE SHOCKING&#33;&#33;&#33;
When considering scho;erships, or what ever, based on race, are because; - people seam to forget we are talking about a whole race (wether black, aboriginal, Latino ets. etc. ) that are under priverliged, And the children of these people (ie. the future of these peoples race), will also bee under priverliged

You don&#39;t get our points then

Sure they are underprivildged, that won&#39;t stop them from getting scholarships if they are open to EVERYONE WHO IS UNDERPRIVILIDGED just not the black/native/hispanic/asian/female/bisexual/homosexual/jewish/ect kids that are underprividildged.

The point is that being underprivilidged is not defined by race. The point is that people in the &#39;majority&#39; where those with &#39;affluence&#39; lie can also be underprivilidged. The point is to say that one person is disqualified because of DESCENT can be called RACISM without a doubt.

I don&#39;t give a shit what you colour is. Just don&#39;t start going down the paths of restrictive scholarships and claim to be a leftist. Please, just save us the shit and don&#39;t pretend.

[Soul Rebel]

I didnt say it was a parody or a joke. What i said was that i didnt find it funny. I also said that it bothered me to have them say it is so because i dont think its something we need to be poking fun at.

Also, i dont understand why its so hard for some of you to get it into your heads that all minority scholarships are given out because the people earned it. Its not handed out because they are a minority, but because they earned it. You need to understand that these scholarships are extremely important because when compared to whites, minority students are at a greater disadvantage. You get these scholarships because you are a student who worked your ass off and happen to be a minority.

And there are a lot of scholarships open to everyone. But because racism and sexism and poverty still does exist and because the past still affects the present, scholarships for minorities are essential. If it wasnt for these scholarships, many minority students would not be in school because they would not have the money or hope (that is so often lacking in poverty stricken school districts.) Trust me, i go to college in a city that is considered to be one of the poorest in the nation, and i see how many people wouldnt be in college had it not been for those scholarships.

I think that the thinking of "just handing it out" is crap. I feel that some people feel that way because they are not the ones getting the scholarship. Get over it.

[EneME]

I agree that people do not get scholarships simply because of their race/gender/sexual orientation but because of hard work. I think it&#39;s awesome that they are available because obviously we still live in a world filled with racism and sexism, but I think their also should be other criterias imposed, but of course thats up to scholarship programs and what not. Personally, I&#39;ve had the experience where I don&#39;t qualify for the majority of scholarships because they have specific requirements of being from certain countries, living in a certain area, and/or having a certain major. I think a student in need is a student in need period....
I guess I&#39;m just bitter that I hardly get help being a female-hispanic-college-student in dire need lol I understand both sides of the coin, but I firmly agree with AA and the standards set by scholarships...just feel their should be more available for every college student in need...

[Individual]

In no way shape of form am I trying to justify and/or defend these &#39;college republicans&#39;. However you said it yourself, there are many scholarships out there.

This is what those college republicans wanted, an uproar from the liberal community in order to sit back and laugh. Sure it is not right, and disheartening. The fact that you said there are scholarships open to anyone:


And there are a lot of scholarships open to everyone

Makes me ask myself why you are upset over this parody or joke about minority scholarships. You seem to realize that there are scholarships open to everyone, so why get upset over a joke? Again, not in support of this behavior, however think of it this way. I can&#39;t apply for a &#39;minority&#39; scholarship because I &#39;look&#39; white. You say minorities are underprivelaged, which I can partially agree on because of how this country is. But what about the underprivelaged &#39;whites&#39; in this country. They can&#39;t apply to these underprivelaged minority scholarships because they are white. To reverse the table, why should I have to look in the mirror and figure out if I have a dark enough skin tone to qualify for a minority scholarship?

I believe that having minority scholarships makes the racism issue worse. It fuels the fire. If we want to get everyone equal, then we need to make it equal. Scholarships should be based on your hard work and merit, like you said. So maybe we need to have scholarships based on your family income level. You can&#39;t tell me that there are not &#39;whites&#39; that live in section-8 housing, and that grow up underprivelaged. So we need to take down this wall of minority scholarships in order to accomplish what I&#39;m sure you, me, and everyone else want, race and class equality.

There is no need to get into an uproar over this. How many people do you actually think are going to apply for a scholarship of &#036;50? Maybe this guys college frat boys and thats about it. Everything he said was meant as a joke, a parody. This is what he wanted, an uproar. Lets not give that to him.

[Saint-Just]

I don&#39;t think Asians or Jews are underprivileged. Only African-Americans and Hispanics are, in general. But, the entire idea of &#39;scholarships&#39; is absolutely abhorrent in any case. Education should be free to the point of need at all levels. Its appauling that this scholarship system exists in the U.S. Unfortunately people have to argue about who recieves the scholarships.

I think that affirmative action is good, to a point. What needs to be concentrated on is the wealth and upbringing of ethnic minorities at an earlier stage now, rather than those at university. The reason less African-Americans and Hispanics go to university is more to do with other aspects of life than the selection process at universities.

[Pete]

Also, i dont understand why its so hard for some of you to get it into your heads that all minority scholarships are given out because the people earned it. Its not handed out because they are a minority, but because they earned it

The point is that I cannot get these because I am NOT a minority. I may be (and most likely am) just as deserving and have just as much need as they do but as I am white and a male I am EXCLUDED.

Seriously if the problem is &#39;underprivilidged&#39; don&#39;t exclude anyone who is underprivildged. Scholarships should be open to all who deserve them. ALL scholarships should be open to EVERYONE who deserves it REGARDLESS of race, ethnicity, or sex.

I think you can&#39;t grasp that. As soon as you bar one group from getting the scholarship you are no better yourself than those you criticize. I may be so against this because it is blocking my path, but I am willing to argue against you all day and you still won&#39;t realize my point.


And there are a lot of scholarships open to everyone

Yes, but there are more open to those who fit into a certain niche in society. Trust me, I&#39;ve spent hours looking.

And this is an arguement against your point. If there are so many scholarships out there for everyone then why do certain races/ethnicities/sexes/sexualities need their own? Why can&#39;t all those funds go to who ever deserves them? And those who deserve them the most get them? Race should have no place here.

My arguement is the same for everything.

Please think about what you are saying. You are supporting your own form of racism with these scholarships. Perhaps you can&#39;t see it as you are the one committing the crime?

And how many people are not in those schools because of those scholarships being unavailable for them?

You don&#39;t destroy fences by building your own.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 02:13 PM

THE REPLYS BY SOME OF THESE COMRADES ARE SHOCKING&#33;&#33;&#33;
When considering scho;erships, or what ever, based on race, are because; - people seam to forget we are talking about a whole race (wether black, aboriginal, Latino ets. etc. ) that are under priverliged, And the children of these people (ie. the future of these peoples race), will also bee under priverliged

You don&#39;t get our points then







Sure they are underprivildged, that won&#39;t stop them from getting scholarships if they are open to EVERYONE WHO IS UNDERPRIVILIDGED just not the black/native/hispanic/asian/female/bisexual/homosexual/jewish/ect kids that are underprividildged.

Problem is my friend that we are dealing with averages. America is a nation that loves to work with demographics. How much of this particular group does so and so. Why does only this group rank low on this test but high in another.

A higher percentage of minorities are underprivliged that that of the white popultion. Does that mean underpriviliged white kids don&#39;t deserve scholarships? No. However on average a white student is more likely to get into a good school, and get a good job out of college than a minority student. That is the purpose of affirmative action.

I don&#39;t disagree that all underpriviliged children deserve a helping hand, but once again this nation deals with percentages and averages.


The point is that being underprivilidged is not defined by race. The point is that people in the &#39;majority&#39; where those with &#39;affluence&#39; lie can also be underprivilidged. The point is to say that one person is disqualified because of DESCENT can be called RACISM without a doubt.


Thats a very good point..however. I suggest that you look at the various studies that have been done about "white" names and "black" names regarding Job Applications.

There were four groups set up.

1. Applicants with "white" names and outstandin applications

2. "Black" Applicants with outstanding applications

3. Whites with dismal applications

4. Blacks with dismal applications.

The Blacks were still less likely to get teh job than the people with "white soundsing names"

Here is a site talking about one such experiment

http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html

and another that was done in Milwaukee(my home town)

http://www.collegejournal.com/successwork/...910-wessel.html (http://www.collegejournal.com/successwork/workplacediversity/20030910-wessel.html)

These two aren&#39;t the exact experiements I was talking about, however they are along the same lines. I&#39;ve known of many such experiements thhat have been done and almost all have yeilded the same results.

So this is the reason for Affirmative Action. Because the playing field still isn&#39;t level. As a black male I&#39;m still going to make 25% less than my white counter part. I&#39;m still less likely to get a job than my equal white counterpart.

Now I don&#39;t think Affiirmative action is solving the problem in colleges or even in the workforce because even these experiments are still showing discrimination exists. I personally believe we must fix the communities to create long term change. However the point is that Affirmative Action was implemented for a reason.

Yes everyone who is underprivileged deserves an exteneded hand. However remember there are financial aid packages out there. Also without AA(even maybe with it) A black person is still less likely to meet sucess because of their descent.



I don&#39;t give a shit what you colour is. Just don&#39;t start going down the paths of restrictive scholarships and claim to be a leftist. Please, just save us the shit and don&#39;t pretend.

Thats the problem. You don&#39;t give a shit what your color is. But guess what, the establishment in America DOES care about what your color is.

Lets say we&#39;ve got two people. One is black, the other is white. Both grew up impoverished. Both Went to a shitty ass highschool. Both didn&#39;t go to college.

Logic would say these two are equally underpriviliged right? Wrong. The simple fact that one of the men is black sets him a notch lower than his white counterpart.

There is an old saying amongst white southerners "we may be poor but atleast we aren&#39;t ni**ers". IE no matter how poor you are atleast you aren&#39;t black.


Now like I said, I&#39;m personally against affirmative action. However I don&#39;t think it&#39;s right that you assume that all underpriviliged people are at the same level when that simply isn&#39;t true. I wish everyone was equal, but due to socio-economic factors they aren&#39;t.

By the way I apologize for using only statistics about black people, but I had the most information for this particular group.

[Pete]

America is a fucked up place. We all know that, but you have to see, just by the posts of those people who get the short end of the stick on this, that affirmative action is being counter-productive. How can you seek to create equality when you are supported disequality?

I am sorry for your country, I really am, but this racism concept. That is what I can&#39;t get my head around. It makes no sense. It is illogical. Perhaps your education system from the start is to blame, but certaintly keeping people out of the scholarship pool is not going to help.

Here when applying for schools no one looks at your name, just your number and your grades. Your grades land you the placement (except for places that require portfolios such as art schools, music schools, drama schools, and higher level arts which require proof of a critical mind) and in those cases the front page is turned over and the judging goes from there. That is also how it is down at the fair in my town.

Scholarships and the such are usually the same, the title page is flipped over and the rest are looked at. Except in the ones that require race/ethnic/ect/ect requirements. You see I am getting upset more over the fact that the arguement for affirmitative action contradicts itself (and for proof, and I hate citing films, I think American History X shows you the way that can work).

It may look like the way to fix things, but you just end up pissing off a lot of deserving "average" kids in the process and turning the "majority" into a "minority." It is pretty ridiculous, and the program makes no sense with its end results in mind. ..

Anyways I am a bit too emotionally charged to get out of the circles I have been thrown in by this topic (which I am taking as a sign to sit down and shut up), but I firmly stand against this affirmative action program. You are hurting yourselves as well as those in the &#39;majority,&#39; and I am not to blame.

[Soul Rebel]

Pete- i totally get what you are saying. I completely getting it however, like i said minorities in this country are statistically more impoverished.

I never denied that whites are poor or can be poor-its quite obvious as i look around me that they are. And they do deserve scholarships and should be entitled to an education just like anyone else.

But the point that i was making Pete is that we still live in a system influenced by racism and sexism that would take in more whites (because of color) than other minorities if it wasnt for minority only scholarships. Get what im saying?

I dont understand why everyone is thinking that i (or Lardlad) dont get that poverty happens to everyone. We are very aware that it happens across all ethnicites, colors, races, etc. We are not dening that in any way. We are just asking that you not forget the racism that has often prohibited people from entering schools, from getting adequate education, funding (in elementary, middle, and high school) etc.

And i dont believe that i am perpetuating racism in any way. I think any person is entitled to education and if underpriviledged they should be helped, regardless of who they are. But like i said racism has often held people back.

I would love it if we could have one giant scholarship for everyone, but because racism and every other -ism still exists, it would be impossible for it to work fairly. Until our society does away with these things, there will be a need for affirmative action and minority scholarships.

And please dont tell me what i do and dont get or understand. Just because i dont agree, it doesnt mean i dont get it. I thought you would have enough respect and intelligence to understand that. And i dont know if that comment about pretending to be a leftist was directed towards Red Charo alone, or to me too, but i feel that was completely out of line. I am a leftist, and most people here will say the same, even though you and i disagree on this topic, so i see no need for comments like that.

So i hope you get what im saying pete.

with much love and in solidarity:)

[antieverything]

I agree completely with affermative action in education. I can&#39;t stand sitting through a discussion on race with a bunch of white kids who went to all white schools in suburbs. But I also can&#39;t stand sitting through discussions on educational inequality where I&#39;m the only person who went to an underfunded, mostly-minority public school. Where is the affermative action based on class?

And you know what? I&#39;m going to come right out and say that I&#39;m sick of being at a disadvantage when I apply for internships with progressive/radical organizations. I get passed over for not being a woman of color and or LGBTQ. The same thing happens when I apply for activist trainings...but that is more understandable since it is based on group discussion. Activist trainings have introduced me to the most amazing LGBTQ people and people of color that I could have possibly met&#33; But when it comes to performing a job for no pay, to being a slave for an organization I believe in such as the Socialist Party, why does it matter that I&#39;m not a lesbian if I can do the job better than anyone else? I still agree with the SP&#39;s policy of having a gender-balanced executive board but having preferences for gender, ethnicity, and sexual orientation at such a low, non-powerful level is unnecessary. It has nothing to do with the job&#33; I don&#39;t even get a bonus from coming from a poor background&#33;&#33;&#33;

[Pete]

SenoraChe I am not denying racism but yes Affirmative action does perpetuate racism. Enough people percieve it as a form of racism/sexism that they start getting those feeligns too. As I said before, you can&#39;t claim to fight something by using its forces.

Basically Antieverything said what I want to say: Why don&#39;t you just have affirmative action based on class? If minorities are more impoverished (which I will not deny though I know very very rich memebers of minorities) then they should recieve those scholarships more. That makes sense. Being exclusive by race doesn&#39;t.

You see? We need to move forward along leftist ideals, not forward along the &#39;be nice to everyone&#39; 20th century liberal ideals.


And please dont tell me what i do and dont get or understand. Just because i dont agree, it doesnt mean i dont get it. I thought you would have enough respect and intelligence to understand that. And i dont know if that comment about pretending to be a leftist was directed towards Red Charo alone, or to me too, but i feel that was completely out of line. I am a leftist, and most people here will say the same, even though you and i disagree on this topic, so i see no need for comments like that.


As I said in my last post I was getting to emotional because I can feel the negative effects of the system you want, and I did consider editing my posts, but decided to let them stand to show this point. I hope you understand that (by understand I mean see why I did not change my posts)? Yes the attacks were unfounded, but in the same instant the emotions that drove the attacks are important to look at. Where are they coming from? Why do they come out? It is better not to surpress them, in my honest opinion.

This topic is emotional only because it excludes so many people from a &#39;cash cow&#39; (I can&#39;t think of any other words for it) that should be open to them. And emotions cause attacks. This, I believe is fairly acceptable. As soon as one person is helped by something they often times don&#39;t stop to see who it hurts. Those hurt either accept it and move on, or take it as a slight and lash out.

Honestly I do not believe that affirmative action based on race can be incorporated into leftwing thought, which is based on class. It has its home in the 20th century liberal movement that wanted everyone to be happy. Affirmative action should be based on class, and then no one will be excluded except those without need and if there are more minorities with need then is it not only a logical extension to say that they will get the scholarships more often?

You see I don&#39;t see the logic in having race based scholarships. Perhaps I am too far down on the concept of class, perhaps I am lucky growing up in a nation with a lot less bigotry still in practice. But also, perhaps as I am looking at something that would help me, and also those of different races ect, and you are looking at things that would help you, as a minority, we each have closed our eyes to the greater issue. I, though, honestly feel your idea has more flaws then mine does. As I have said again and again in a few different forms: you cannot take down fences by building new ones.

And that is the point I want to bring forth.

[RED CHARO]

Originally posted by [email protected] 17 2004, 02:13 PM

THE REPLYS BY SOME OF THESE COMRADES ARE SHOCKING&#33;&#33;&#33;
When considering scho;erships, or what ever, based on race, are because; - people seam to forget we are talking about a whole race (wether black, aboriginal, Latino ets. etc. ) that are under priverliged, And the children of these people (ie. the future of these peoples race), will also bee under priverliged

You don&#39;t get our points then

Sure they are underprivildged, that won&#39;t stop them from getting scholarships if they are open to EVERYONE WHO IS UNDERPRIVILIDGED just not the black/native/hispanic/asian/female/bisexual/homosexual/jewish/ect kids that are underprividildged.

The point is that being underprivilidged is not defined by race. The point is that people in the &#39;majority&#39; where those with &#39;affluence&#39; lie can also be underprivilidged. The point is to say that one person is disqualified because of DESCENT can be called RACISM without a doubt.

I don&#39;t give a shit what you colour is. Just don&#39;t start going down the paths of restrictive scholarships and claim to be a leftist. Please, just save us the shit and don&#39;t pretend.
You have to be kidding me Pete;
Stop pretending to be a lefty????????????????????? :lol:
I think u should look at yourself Mr. Pete&#33;

[Pete]

Read the post right above yours.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 18 2004, 04:25 AM
America is a fucked up place. We all know that, but you have to see, just by the posts of those people who get the short end of the stick on this, that affirmative action is being counter-productive. How can you seek to create equality when you are supported disequality?

I am sorry for your country, I really am, but this racism concept. That is what I can&#39;t get my head around. It makes no sense. It is illogical. Perhaps your education system from the start is to blame, but certaintly keeping people out of the scholarship pool is not going to help.

Here when applying for schools no one looks at your name, just your number and your grades. Your grades land you the placement (except for places that require portfolios such as art schools, music schools, drama schools, and higher level arts which require proof of a critical mind) and in those cases the front page is turned over and the judging goes from there. That is also how it is down at the fair in my town.

Scholarships and the such are usually the same, the title page is flipped over and the rest are looked at. Except in the ones that require race/ethnic/ect/ect requirements. You see I am getting upset more over the fact that the arguement for affirmitative action contradicts itself (and for proof, and I hate citing films, I think American History X shows you the way that can work).

It may look like the way to fix things, but you just end up pissing off a lot of deserving "average" kids in the process and turning the "majority" into a "minority." It is pretty ridiculous, and the program makes no sense with its end results in mind. ..

Anyways I am a bit too emotionally charged to get out of the circles I have been thrown in by this topic (which I am taking as a sign to sit down and shut up), but I firmly stand against this affirmative action program. You are hurting yourselves as well as those in the &#39;majority,&#39; and I am not to blame.
Making the majority a minority?

Unless we are talking about HBCU&#39;s there is not a college or university in the United States where Minorities are the majority.

At the University of Michigan, which brought up this whole case(again) blacks only made up 14% of the student body. Blacks in the US make up about 12% of the population so they were represented pretty much correctly.

Also a flaw in the whole idea of eliminating affirmative action is that you still aren&#39;t solving the problem. So where as now employers are atleast forced to hire some black people, with it removed they don&#39;t have to. IE, it&#39;s going to get even more unlevel than it already is.

You are basically sending minorities back into teh slot of third class citizen, and we are justbarely starting to get out of the second class slot.

Now I don&#39;t believe Affirmative Action is the best plan, but you can&#39;t criticize without bringing in an alternative.

And don&#39;t just say eliminating the system because you know that wont make anything equal.

[Individual]

Don&#39;t worry Pete, I understand where you are trying to come from. Which is where I am trying to come from. My only problem is I get no creditability for I am &#39;white&#39;.

As much as any one of you, or myself, want to bring down the walls of race issues. We are not helping this by carrying them on. A percentage of minorities certainly do have a harder time making it. However it is not just minorities. I grew up with a single parent working 7 days a week in order to live in a 2 bedroom apartment. This is not the apathy card, however my point being minorities are not the only ones in need.

If impoverished &#39;white&#39; people cannot apply to a minority scholarship, what is the difference between minorities not being able to apply for other programs or scholarships. This is in no way justified.

By putting these walls up (making &#39;minority&#39; only scholarships) you help to fuel the fire of race issues. The problem exists on both sides. Surely change is needed from within rural white communities, however by isolating themselves with &#39;minority&#39; clubs/programs/groups/scholarships they are doing nothing to help the issues. I believe in Affirmative Action. However I cannot support &#39;minority&#39; only scholarships. This is like fighting segregation, with segregation.

In no way am I discriminatory, for I grew up, and currently live in a very diverse community. I know the problems that exist, and I strongly believe efforts need to be made on both sides. This may be straying off topic, so I&#39;ll try and go back...

Instead of having all of these &#39;minority&#39; scholarships. There needs to be more scholarships that favor underprivelaged kids. Whether latino(a), African-American, Caucasion, Asian-American, Middle-Eastern, European, blue, green, or gray, scholarships should apply to everyone that is in the same position.

Like Pete was saying, I also know very wealthy minorities. And your arguement is that minorities need these scholarships because they are underprivelaged. What happens when these very-privelaged students apply against you for a scholarship. These privelaged minorities have an extremely higher chance at getting a scholarship than I ever would have, yet I am white.

I clearly see the discrimination that goes on, however scholarships for different ethnicities to help with being underprivelaged, is the same as underprivelaged caucasion&#39;s trying to get a scholarship against wealthy caucasion&#39;s that have the privelage. Does this make sense? This is why more scholarships should be based on maybe an income level.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 06:20 AM
Don&#39;t worry Pete, I understand where you are trying to come from. Which is where I am trying to come from. My only problem is I get no creditability for I am &#39;white&#39;.

As much as any one of you, or myself, want to bring down the walls of race issues. We are not helping this by carrying them on. A percentage of minorities certainly do have a harder time making it. However it is not just minorities. I grew up with a single parent working 7 days a week in order to live in a 2 bedroom apartment. This is not the apathy card, however my point being minorities are not the only ones in need.

If impoverished &#39;white&#39; people cannot apply to a minority scholarship, what is the difference between minorities not being able to apply for other programs or scholarships. This is in no way justified.

By putting these walls up (making &#39;minority&#39; only scholarships) you help to fuel the fire of race issues. The problem exists on both sides. Surely change is needed from within rural white communities, however by isolating themselves with &#39;minority&#39; clubs/programs/groups/scholarships they are doing nothing to help the issues. I believe in Affirmative Action. However I cannot support &#39;minority&#39; only scholarships. This is like fighting segregation, with segregation.

In no way am I discriminatory, for I grew up, and currently live in a very diverse community. I know the problems that exist, and I strongly believe efforts need to be made on both sides. This may be straying off topic, so I&#39;ll try and go back...

Instead of having all of these &#39;minority&#39; scholarships. There needs to be more scholarships that favor underprivelaged kids. Whether latino(a), African-American, Caucasion, Asian-American, Middle-Eastern, European, blue, green, or gray, scholarships should apply to everyone that is in the same position.

Like Pete was saying, I also know very wealthy minorities. And your arguement is that minorities need these scholarships because they are underprivelaged. What happens when these very-privelaged students apply against you for a scholarship. These privelaged minorities have an extremely higher chance at getting a scholarship than I ever would have, yet I am white.

I clearly see the discrimination that goes on, however scholarships for different ethnicities to help with being underprivelaged, is the same as underprivelaged caucasion&#39;s trying to get a scholarship against wealthy caucasion&#39;s that have the privelage. Does this make sense? This is why more scholarships should be based on maybe an income level.
....Lets get away from the individual people, no back stories.

Chances are in this nation if you are a minority then you are more likely to be impoverished than if you are white. That is the whole justification. You guys are personalizing it. The system isn&#39;t meant to be personalized, it is meant to increase the percentage of minorities in college.

Yes there are lots of poor whites, but the percentage of the white population that is poor isn&#39;t as high as teh percentage in minority populations. Once again americans deal with demographics, not individuals.

Once again though I don&#39;t agree with affirmative action, but until you guys come up with a better solution (I have my own and I&#39;ll tell you about it in good time) i&#39;m going to fight you on this

[Individual]

Yes there are lots of poor whites, but the percentage of the white population that is poor isn&#39;t as high as teh percentage in minority populations. Once again americans deal with demographics, not individuals.

Obviously the percentage for minorities would be greater, hence the term minority (less of). Maybe you should find actual numbers, not percentages. Percentage is not a fair comparison. Unless you can show me the number of impoverished whites compared to the total number of all impoverished minorities, I shall not agree with this. I have a feeling that the number of impoverished whites is if not equal, only a small percentage less than that of total number of impoverished minorities.

If you can prove me wrong on this than I shall retract everything I have said.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 11:53 PM

Yes there are lots of poor whites, but the percentage of the white population that is poor isn&#39;t as high as teh percentage in minority populations. Once again americans deal with demographics, not individuals.

Obviously the percentage for minorities would be greater, hence the term minority (less of). Maybe you should find actual numbers, not percentages. Percentage is not a fair comparison. Unless you can show me the number of impoverished whites compared to the total number of all impoverished minorities, I shall not agree with this. I have a feeling that the number of impoverished whites is if not equal, only a small percentage less than that of total number of impoverished minorities.

If you can prove me wrong on this than I shall retract everything I have said.
http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty...9/povrac99.html (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty99/povrac99.html)

here is a graph from 1999, it&#39;s kinda hard to see but you&#39;ll see it soon enough.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty.../r&dtable5.html (http://www.census.gov/hhes/poverty/poverty02/r&dtable5.html)

and here is one of numbers.

http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFF...lang=en&_sse=on (http://factfinder.census.gov/jsp/saff/SAFFInfo.jsp?geo_id=01000US&_geoContext=&_street=&_county=&_cityTown=&_state=&_zip=&_content=tp9_race_ethnicity.html&_watermark=people_watermark.gif&_gnId=0&_gtId=0&_title=Race+and+Ethnicity&_lang=en&_sse=on)

This last one is shows the percentage of races in the nation.

whites make up 69 percent of the population, minorities make up about 30.5%(Black,Asian,Native America, Hispanic, etc.)

The number of impoverished whites is higher than that of impoverished minorities, as you can tell from the different sets of numbers I&#39;vepresented, but let me explain the reason I&#39;m using percentages.


If you are black you are a little bit more than 3 times as likely to be impoverished than if you are white. Blacks having a poverty rate of 23.3%, while whites have one of 7.7%

Now 23.3% is less than half of the total number however remember what impoverished means. In america Impoverished means you make &#036;16,000 or less a year.

Now, these facts and figures only talk about impoverished. However People who aren&#39;t impoverished still can&#39;t afford college for their children. My father makes 90,000 a year and we are still praying my brother gets a scholarship so he can get into U penn, or U of Chicago. Now college tution has risen recently and I&#39;ll bring you stats on that later.

But the point is this isn&#39;t taking into account lower middleclass people.

So I will conceede that there are more poor white people than minorities. But remember Whites also make up about 70% of the population. It&#39;s logical that they&#39;d have more people who are impoverished.

But only 7.7% of whites are under the poverty lines. That means that if you are white you are more likely not to be impoverished than a minority. That is why there are scholarships for minorites. because they are less likely to be as economically stable.


Once again i don&#39;t agree with affirmative action, I think there are better ways. But you keep attacking it without bringing up a posisble solution that still makes sure that disadvantaged minorities are helped out.

[RedCeltic]

One has to take into perspective what the college republicans are actually trying to say with this stunt.

I believe that they are in truth arguing that ethnic minorities should not have racial based scholarships.

For if the college republicans would happen to argue that college is unaffordable for many whites as well they would be stating something that would be against the parties consistent practice of balancing the state budget by cutting budgets and funding to higher education.

In per portion to their population size, minority groups stand a greater chance of finding higher education unaffordable and unobtainable.

Yet that doesn’t mean that more minorities find higher education unaffordable than whites does it? It seems statistically there would actually be more poor whites that can not afford higher education, yet much less in per portion when compared to ethnic minorities.

So now you have large populations of people, who do not qualify for special scholarships that are designed to give equal opportunity, do not qualify for aid etc… unless like me, they serve time in the armed forces. (This is the population category I fit in, as that’s the only way I could afford education.)

Scholarships for minorities is not the problem, their function is to solve that specific problem that in per portion to their population size, simply more ethnic minorities can not afford higher Ed.

It is not designed, nor is it meant to address the issue of poor people in general, regardless of ethnic background, not being able to afford higher education.

Scholarships for ethnic minorities, aid, and affirmative action are not what holds poor white kids back, but rather it’s:::

1) The low income required to qualify for grants is so low that a family could not possibly support itself. Despite being from a poor household that could not afford my college tuition I still didn’t qualify for a grant until I was older and working off the books.

2) The amount of money given out by these grants once obtained still doesn’t cover the expense of college.

3) Budget cuts and tuition hikes to public schools have not only left State Universities like the SUNY (state university of New York) understaffed, has caused large drop outs of students who either have grades drop due to the need to work as they go to school, or outright fail to come up with the money.

Loans are I suppose the only way now days for anyone to afford “public” education, and going into debt in order to afford a decent existence is, I suppose, the “American Way."

You know, back when CUNY (City university of New York) was run by the city and not the state, tuition was only about as much as a semester’s worth of books cost now.

That’s something to think about isn’t it.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 03:31 AM
One has to take into perspective what the college republicans are actually trying to say with this stunt.

I believe that they are in truth arguing that ethnic minorities should not have racial based scholarships.

For if the college republicans would happen to argue that college is unaffordable for many whites as well they would be stating something that would be against the parties consistent practice of balancing the state budget by cutting budgets and funding to higher education.

In per portion to their population size, minority groups stand a greater chance of finding higher education unaffordable and unobtainable.

Yet that doesn’t mean that more minorities find higher education unaffordable than whites does it? It seems statistically there would actually be more poor whites that can not afford higher education, yet much less in per portion when compared to ethnic minorities.

So now you have large populations of people, who do not qualify for special scholarships that are designed to give equal opportunity, do not qualify for aid etc… unless like me, they serve time in the armed forces. (This is the population category I fit in, as that’s the only way I could afford education.)

Scholarships for minorities is not the problem, their function is to solve that specific problem that in per portion to their population size, simply more ethnic minorities can not afford higher Ed.

It is not designed, nor is it meant to address the issue of poor people in general, regardless of ethnic background, not being able to afford higher education.

Scholarships for ethnic minorities, aid, and affirmative action are not what holds poor white kids back, but rather it’s:::

1) The low income required to qualify for grants is so low that a family could not possibly support itself. Despite being from a poor household that could not afford my college tuition I still didn’t qualify for a grant until I was older and working off the books.

2) The amount of money given out by these grants once obtained still doesn’t cover the expense of college.

3) Budget cuts and tuition hikes to public schools have not only left State Universities like the SUNY (state university of New York) understaffed, has caused large drop outs of students who either have grades drop due to the need to work as they go to school, or outright fail to come up with the money.

Loans are I suppose the only way now days for anyone to afford “public” education, and going into debt in order to afford a decent existence is, I suppose, the “American Way."

You know, back when CUNY (City university of New York) was run by the city and not the state, tuition was only about as much as a semester’s worth of books cost now.

That’s something to think about isn’t it.
A very good analysis

Care to give a solution to the entire problem though?

[RedCeltic]

Hmmm... well personally I think public higher ed. ( In New York State at least) could be funded by making corperations pay their taxes, and making signifigant cuts on our prision system.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 04:07 AM
Hmmm... well personally I think public higher ed. ( In New York State at least) could be funded by making corperations pay their taxes, and making signifigant cuts on our prision system.
Free State college is something I support. However we still need t make sure that students are prepared.

Having gone to inner city schools before, and having gone to suburban schools believe me, we need to also focus on HighSchool Education

[RedCeltic]

Originally posted by Lardlad95+Feb 20 2004, 05:57 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lardlad95 @ Feb 20 2004, 05:57 PM)
[email protected] 20 2004, 04:07 AM
Hmmm... well personally I think public higher ed. ( In New York State at least) could be funded by making corperations pay their taxes, and making signifigant cuts on our prision system.
Free State college is something I support. However we still need t make sure that students are prepared.

Having gone to inner city schools before, and having gone to suburban schools believe me, we need to also focus on HighSchool Education [/b]
This is true, yet I did not mention reform needed in primary and secondery education, because since the topic of this thread was on racial based scholerships, I assumed we were talking about strictly higher education here.

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by RedCeltic+Feb 21 2004, 12:15 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RedCeltic @ Feb 21 2004, 12:15 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 05:57 PM

[email protected] 20 2004, 04:07 AM
Hmmm... well personally I think public higher ed. ( In New York State at least) could be funded by making corperations pay their taxes, and making signifigant cuts on our prision system.
Free State college is something I support. However we still need t make sure that students are prepared.

Having gone to inner city schools before, and having gone to suburban schools believe me, we need to also focus on HighSchool Education
This is true, yet I did not mention reform needed in primary and secondery education, because since the topic of this thread was on racial based scholerships, I assumed we were talking about strictly higher education here. [/b]
Well I see fixing primary and secondary education as a solution to fixing the need for affirmative action.

If you go to a poor grammar school, to a poor middle school, to a poor highschool. I would expect you to need some help getting into college.

We ust cut the problem out at it&#39;s root