On the necessity of Normality/Communist Imagery

[Jacob Cliff]

Putting all prejudice and mean-spirited bigotry aside, we do need to face the fact that imagery does matter. Not so we can abide by some stupid, abstract "normality" for the sake of "fitting in," but because NOBODY will take people who looks excessively out of the ordinary (take for instance, Marilyn Manson) or "looser-ish" seriously. Even if we have excellent points -- even if we can shatter all opposing arguments to one thousand pieces and wonderfully explain our tendencies to people unfamiliar with them -- absolutely NOBODY will listen or take one seriously if you intentionally dress in all black leather or have gauges or something of the sort; or, even worse, when one dresses in communist-themed anime-like apparel ("adf-fuensalida" comes to mind with this).

Whatever your personal convictions are, or whatever you dress like or watch for your own entertainment, is one hundred percent fine and nobody should have to judge you for being yourself. This goes without saying. But tactically, I think we need to understand that dressing up in some ridiculous attire or costume while promoting communism does far more harm than good. It just gives our opponents ammunition to discredit all communists as being prepubescent teens or weirdos -- which are fine to be, but they will not pay attention to our ideas if they're fixed on the strange Lenin-themed Naruto gear you might be wearing during your rally.

[BIXX]

Putting all prejudice and mean-spirited bigotry aside, we do need to face the fact that imagery does matter. Not so we can abide by some stupid, abstract "normality" for the sake of "fitting in," but because NOBODY will take people who looks excessively out of the ordinary (take for instance, Marilyn Manson) or "looser-ish" seriously. Even if we have excellent points -- even if we can shatter all opposing arguments to one thousand pieces and wonderfully explain our tendencies to people unfamiliar with them -- absolutely NOBODY will listen or take one seriously if you intentionally dress in all black leather or have gauges or something of the sort; or, even worse, when one dresses in communist-themed anime-like apparel ("adf-fuensalida" comes to mind with this).

Whatever your personal convictions are, or whatever you dress like or watch for your own entertainment, is one hundred percent fine and nobody should have to judge you for being yourself. This goes without saying. But tactically, I think we need to understand that dressing up in some ridiculous attire or costume while promoting communism does far more harm than good. It just gives our opponents ammunition to discredit all communists as being prepubescent teens or weirdos -- which are fine to be, but they will not pay attention to our ideas if they're fixed on the strange Lenin-themed Naruto gear you might be wearing during your rally.

You're an idiot and your ideas are idiotic.

If someone needs someone else to look "normal" to accept their ideas they're not worth it.

[Aslan]

I...have to agree to a point. I'll have to disagree with you about the pop figures part. People like Marilyn Manson and black metal players are entertainers which means they need to be flashy! That's why they're called entertainers in the first place right? They have to be like that in order to create a ''persona'' around themselves, otherwise they're just an average Joe. However I agree with you that no-one will take you seriously if you don't take what your saying seriously. Something like class conflict should not be explained while wearing a flamboyant outfit; it makes you seem like a joke. Especially if you are debating against someone in a crowd since your opponent can easily make fun of your act and throw a red herring.

[Jacob Cliff]

You're an idiot and your ideas are idiotic.

If someone needs someone else to look "normal" to accept their ideas they're not worth it.
Thank you for the well, thought-out answer. Helps us to realize that hey, who cares if we're stereotyped as being overweight Slavophiles or anime fanatics (and consequently, bearing the joy of being represented in the media as this and having absolutely nobody take us seriously), at least we'll be showing those shallow people that we don't need them!

..Even if that means we're alienating 9/10ths of all people!

My point isn't to trash people for acting or being who they want, but the reality is, it's only throwing fuel to the flames when some guy joins a serious protest dressed up in a Naruto outfit with various allusions to Mao and Lenin and making an absolute fool out of himself. This stuff, sadly, is VERY common in the left, for some reason. If you are interested in that stuff, that's great; I'm not criticizing you. But leave it at home, because know that you're representing to ALL Americans the face of the communist movement here. And I digress: this isn't for the sake of "fitting in," but instead it's for the sake of being able to actually have a serious discussion with our opponents and publicize and propagate our views without being slammed-down for a few unfortunate stereotypes kept alive by real-life examples.

Go to a rally and give a great speech while dressed up in some ridiculous, cartoonish outfit and nobody is going to pay attention to your words, because they'll be focused on your strange obsession with trying to look out of the ordinary. If you honestly can't understand that this is the (sad) reality we face today, you've been living under a rock.

[BIXX]

Thank you for the well, thought-out answer. Helps us to realize that hey, who cares if we're stereotyped as being overweight Slavophiles or anime fanatics (and consequently, bearing the joy of being represented in the media as this and having absolutely nobody take us seriously), at least we'll be showing those shallow people that we don't need them!

..Even if that means we're alienating 9/10ths of all people!

My point isn't to trash people for acting or being who they want, but the reality is, it's only throwing fuel to the flames when some guy joins a serious protest dressed up in a Naruto outfit with various allusions to Mao and Lenin and making an absolute fool out of himself. This stuff, sadly, is VERY common in the left, for some reason. If you are interested in that stuff, that's great; I'm not criticizing you. But leave it at home, because know that you're representing to ALL Americans the face of the communist movement here. And I digress: this isn't for the sake of "fitting in," but instead it's for the sake of being able to actually have a serious discussion with our opponents and publicize and propagate our views without being slammed-down for a few unfortunate stereotypes kept alive by real-life examples.

Go to a rally and give a great speech while dressed up in some ridiculous, cartoonish outfit and nobody is going to pay attention to your words, because they'll be focused on your strange obsession with trying to look out of the ordinary. If you honestly can't understand that this is the (sad) reality we face today, you've been living under a rock.

1- unless they're predisposed to the ideas you're espousing they won't listen no matter what (I know form experience, as someone who looks pretty normal)

2- if we have to look normal for them to want to listen they aren't really in favor of freedom but of equality, meaning the equality to be like them and only like them, equality through homogenous existence. That not the kind of person who I want listening to me, that's the kind of person I want gone.

[BIXX]

Also I've never encountered the "anime" thing you're describing

[Bala Perdida]

Yeah I've been to a few protests and I've never seen anyone dressed like they slept through the stop at fanime. I've barely ever even seen anyone with a mao, che, or hammer and sickle shirt at a protest.

If you have to buy people with your image you're not worth taking seriously. It sounds murderously repetitive when you start pulling that mass appeal shit. Then the alternative ends up just being a reform.

[BIXX]

Thank you for the well, thought-out answer. Helps us to realize that hey, who cares if we're stereotyped as being overweight Slavophiles or anime fanatics (and consequently, bearing the joy of being represented in the media as this and having absolutely nobody take us seriously), at least we'll be showing those shallow people that we don't need them!

..Even if that means we're alienating 9/10ths of all people!

My point isn't to trash people for acting or being who they want, but the reality is, it's only throwing fuel to the flames when some guy joins a serious protest dressed up in a Naruto outfit with various allusions to Mao and Lenin and making an absolute fool out of himself. This stuff, sadly, is VERY common in the left, for some reason. If you are interested in that stuff, that's great; I'm not criticizing you. But leave it at home, because know that you're representing to ALL Americans the face of the communist movement here. And I digress: this isn't for the sake of "fitting in," but instead it's for the sake of being able to actually have a serious discussion with our opponents and publicize and propagate our views without being slammed-down for a few unfortunate stereotypes kept alive by real-life examples.

Go to a rally and give a great speech while dressed up in some ridiculous, cartoonish outfit and nobody is going to pay attention to your words, because they'll be focused on your strange obsession with trying to look out of the ordinary. If you honestly can't understand that this is the (sad) reality we face today, you've been living under a rock.

Should only the most attractive communists talk? The ones who have the most money to look as good as possible? At WHT point is someone worthy of espousing your communist ideals?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

By all accounts (including the remaining video footage), Bolshevik agitators prior to October looked awful - as in, they looked like average workers living with the poverty brought on by the war, and they looked greasy and tired because they would move from one factory or regiment to the next with no time for sleep. Those in the party centre who had the opportunity to dress better often dressed very distinctively, in leather jackets and pants with red ribbons. You could spot them a mile away. That didn't seem to stop them at all.

[Armchair Partisan]

There is an expression for this: "respectability politics".

It's not a good idea.

[RedWorker]

IMO the simplistic original post raises a greater issue and I think there are several elements to this:

1. Of course, everyone has the right to dress how he or she wants.

2. At the same time, this shouldn't prevent us from analyzing. E.g. the Burqa, or why do some demonstrators in events connected to women's question intentionally dress like 'sluts'? It cannot be pretended that these instances have no meaning. This is not an issue of 'right' or 'wrong'. It is an issue that obviously hints that more analysis of personal behaviour and its connection to social phenomena is needed.

3. This has a possible connection to discrimination issues, and phenomena such as transgenderism/queer. E.g., a person assigned male gender who has a penchant for dressing femininely, being contrasted with the issue being brought up here of "the need to be taken seriously by the public".

4. The connection between politics and personality fulfilment, between political standing and personal behaviour. An individual may on a political level be a communist and on an individual level have a penchant for personal behaviour that breaks social norms. But these behaviours are not part of political action, nor is political action part of these behaviours. In a similar way, a political standing is in a way part of the fulfilment of the own personality, or such personal behaviours can be seen as fulfilment of a political standing.

[Jacob Cliff]

1- unless they're predisposed to the ideas you're espousing they won't listen no matter what (I know form experience, as someone who looks pretty normal)

2- if we have to look normal for them to want to listen they aren't really in favor of freedom but of equality, meaning the equality to be like them and only like them, equality through homogenous existence. That not the kind of person who I want listening to me, that's the kind of person I want gone.
And I can understand that, and I well agree on a personal level. Sadly, the Internet and News Outlets are the primary source from which people derive their thoughts on political matters, it seems. And from experience as an Internet user on other sites, it is absolutely impossible for people to so much as listen to us while they can pull some red herring because of a few so-called "cringy" people. This post was only made because they center around people who purposely dress up in Russian-esque attire or a naruto costume, and they only see that and not their arguments.

Maybe you haven't seen it; I'm not sure just how common it is. I'm just concerned with how seriously people will take us if a great bulk of us so extremely out of the ordinary for absolutely no reason besides for the purpose of attracting attention.

Just my thoughts.

[Jacob Cliff]

By all accounts (including the remaining video footage), Bolshevik agitators prior to October looked awful - as in, they looked like average workers living with the poverty brought on by the war, and they looked greasy and tired because they would move from one factory or regiment to the next with no time for sleep. Those in the party centre who had the opportunity to dress better often dressed very distinctively, in leather jackets and pants with red ribbons. You could spot them a mile away. That didn't seem to stop them at all.
But the average worker IS a common sight. The problem is that many communists today do the exact opposite: I have seen far too many, on the Internet and in real life, dress up in some extremely strange attire which, I'm guessing by the looks of it, comes from some anime, and others who purposely try and dress in other constumes.

If anything, we SHOULD look like the average worker; we should appeal to the proletariat and look and speak as if we're fighting for the interests of their class – because we are, after all. Bolsheviks were common workers who looked the part because they hadn't the money to purchase anything more; today I've seen far too many in expensive, cartoonish outfits (which, to be honest, are just plain weird and ridiculous) for absolutely no reason whatsoever besides to attract attention.

Idk – again I'm not trying to alienate the oppressed folk of capitalism who we SHOULD unite with, but at the same time, our image is important. The way we're displayed will reflect on the level of seriousness people take us, and there's nothing worse than a marginal political tendency that is condemned to the abyss of ridiculousness.

[RedAnarchist]

You're an idiot and your ideas are idiotic.

If someone needs someone else to look "normal" to accept their ideas they're not worth it.

This is a verbal warning for flaming.

[Ele'ill]

But the average worker IS a common sight. The problem is that many communists today do the exact opposite: I have seen far too many, on the Internet and in real life, dress up in some extremely strange attire which, I'm guessing by the looks of it, comes from some anime, and others who purposely try and dress in other constumes.

If anything, we SHOULD look like the average worker; we should appeal to the proletariat and look and speak as if we're fighting for the interests of their class – because we are, after all. Bolsheviks were common workers who looked the part because they hadn't the money to purchase anything more; today I've seen far too many in expensive, cartoonish outfits (which, to be honest, are just plain weird and ridiculous) for absolutely no reason whatsoever besides to attract attention.

Idk – again I'm not trying to alienate the oppressed folk of capitalism who we SHOULD unite with, but at the same time, our image is important. The way we're displayed will reflect on the level of seriousness people take us, and there's nothing worse than a marginal political tendency that is condemned to the abyss of ridiculousness.

I wouldn't suggest you and your buddies climb into your home made 3 person dinosaur costume to prowl the streets looking for people trapped at bus stops to talk at about marx however that's pretty easy to avoid.

[Rafiq]

By all accounts (including the remaining video footage), Bolshevik agitators prior to October looked awful - as in, they looked like average workers living with the poverty brought on by the war, and they looked greasy and tired because they would move from one factory or regiment to the next with no time for sleep. Those in the party centre who had the opportunity to dress better often dressed very distinctively, in leather jackets and pants with red ribbons. You could spot them a mile away. That didn't seem to stop them at all.

Dressing like ordinary workers in the early 20th century finds its historical equivalent in 2015: Ridiculous anime role-play bullshit.

Let me piss some people off: Today, most leftist kids dress in very seemingly "non-conformist" ways. But this is precisely a perversion, dressing eccentrically is to conform to the ethics of predominant ideology, there is nothing subversive about it, it is absolutely the logical result of consumerist individualism. This alone encapsulates a much deeper pattern of Leftists beyond how they dress, but we'll ignore that.

What if, in fact, dressing in a very conformist, plain manner, was as close to being subversive as your clothing is going to get? Not that I say woe unto all who dress eccentrically here - no one really cares. We are speaking about a much wider point.

[Guardia Rossa]

text

But dressing differently is not only for consumerist blablabla, it is also the self-affirmation of a person/group. Self-affirmation has nothing to do with consumerism blablabla's, the revolutionaries in france wore red berrets, the revolutionaries in russia were the "leather club", anarchists tend to use black clothing, painting hair, tattoos, etc, not for "evil, consumerist perversion" but for self-affirmation of the person/group and to identify eachother.

I know who in school is anarchist/postmodern by their clothing. I know who in school is a rich idiot because of their clothing and manners. This is not consumerist individualism, as people wore differently to feel entitled to a certain group of persons since, hell, probably since we wore clothing, or even before.

[Rafiq]

But dressing differently is not only for consumerist blablabla, it is also the self-affirmation of a person/group. Self-affirmation has nothing to do with consumerism blablabla's, the revolutionaries in france wore red berrets, the revolutionaries in russia were the "leather club", anarchists tend to use black clothing, painting hair, tattoos, etc, not for "evil, consumerist perversion" but for self-affirmation of the person/group and to identify eachother.

In the past dressing differently was meant to distinguish oneself insofar as you belonged to something far beyond yourself. This is not the case today - it is very conformist to, for lack of a better phrase, to "not be a conformist".

So to dress plainly, and simply, would indeed be "dressing differently", an avowed rejection of consumerist fashion identities.


I know who in school is anarchist/postmodern by their clothing. I know who in school is a rich idiot because of their clothing and manners. This is not consumerist individualism, as people wore differently to feel entitled to a certain group of persons since, hell, probably since we wore clothing, or even before.

Of course, people who dress in such a way as to distinguish themselves may be genuine, and perhaps they do distinguish themelves in such a way. The question however is to ask why: Because here in the US, most rich idiots dress eccentrically, the postmodern capitalist of the 21st century is not some bland "square".

There is nothing wrong with differing yourself as far as the clothes you wear for political reasons, but the point is that most of this is a perversion: For you to be able to politically distinguish yourself, the politics which exists beyond your head needs to be there - not the case for Communist role players here wearing Mao caps. I doubt people in the past had to argue about what was the "true" revolutionary fashion, because it was already well established what this was. And it was not "me trying 2 be me".

[Synergy]

As long as you aren't wearing something distracting/confusing to people (since you want them to listen to you and understand your message) then you should be fine.

That's why I always dress up as Barney The Dinosaur: the most beloved character of all time.