Flaws of Syndicalism and Mutualism

[Servia]

Why are Syndicalism and Mutualism inadequate?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Why are you grouping the two together?

[BIXX]

Is this a question with or without bias? I don't support either but the way you asked the question seems like you're just trying to get a bunch of people to shit on those tendencies without real discussion.

[OGG]

How about, "What are some criticisms of Syndicalism and Mutualism?"

[Servia]

What I am asking is why do people prefer communism over these systems?

[QueerVanguard]

Why are Syndicalism and Mutualism inadequate?

Because they are unworkable Proudhonist systems of worker managed capital. 'nuff said.

[The Feral Underclass]

Because they are unworkable Proudhonist systems of worker managed capital. 'nuff said.

Since when has Syndicalism been Proudhonist?

[Decolonize The Left]

Is this a question with or without bias? I don't support either but the way you asked the question seems like you're just trying to get a bunch of people to shit on those tendencies without real discussion.

I'm tempted to agree, especially from an OP with a Lenin avatar.

OP, do you have a critique of syndicalism or mutualism from a communist perspective that you wish to put forward as adequate?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

As much as it might be a questionable way to start a discussion, the user has recently asked some 'beginner' questions regarding reform and revolution so I'd say that there's no need for any real degree of suspicion - they're new and looking for answers, it seems.

As to the question itself, both ideologies put forward positions of worker managed capitalism although notably branches of syndicalism recognise the need to end capitalism altogether. Syndicalism is particularly interesting historically since it has at times been hugely popular and powerful, particularly in Italy and Spain but also France and the US. Would.wrote more but I'm on my phone.

[QueerVanguard]

Since when has Syndicalism been Proudhonist?

http://i.imgur.com/sLNwm4M.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Varlin

[Hatshepsut]

In 1929, Leon Trotsky gave an answer as far as syndicalism goes:


"Those who, in principle, counterpose trade union autonomy to the leadership of the Communist Party, counterpose thereby – whether they want to or not – the most backward proletarian section to the vanguard of the working class, the struggle for immediate demands to the struggle for the complete liberation of the workers, reformism to Communism, opportunism to revolutionary Marxism."

-Communism & Syndicalism
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1931/unions/3-commsyn.htm

I would say the bolded part, prioritizing immediate demands issuing from particular trades, is the fundamental flaw. The USA's United Auto Workers union managed to drive wages on auto assembly lines in Detroit up to $27/hour (over $50 today) before GM packed up for Mexico in 1989, laying off 50000 people:

Counts et al. Detroit: The New Motor City
https://web.stanford.edu/class/e297c/poverty_prejudice/citypoverty/hdetroit.htm

Ford kept the UAW at bay in Claycomo, Missouri; therefore this plant has survived. But look, it hires supervisors from the precariat at Kelly Services. Want a job?

9654

Communists hope to put this insanity to rest for good. They see that the bourgeoisie will convert asymmetry in U.S. labor over to asymmetry between U.S. and Mexican labor in response to pressure from labor aristocracies. They can support trade unions against the bourgeoisie, especially where severe exploitation as in the fast food industry is seen. But they're not looking to re-create a modern version of the medieval guild.

[Servia]

I'm tempted to agree, especially from an OP with a Lenin avatar.

OP, do you have a critique of syndicalism or mutualism from a communist perspective that you wish to put forward as adequate?

I don't. That's why I am asking. I am not Leninist; I am not sure what kind of "ist" I am. I find myself often envisioning society as some sort of variation of syndicalism, but I worry that is just because my own views aren't fully developed. I made my profile picture Lenin with children near a Christmas tree when it was the winter holiday season out of fun.

[Guardia Rossa]

Welcome, comrade. You could take a look at the "Communism: What would utopia be like"
Don't go farther than the first page though, there is danger in those texts.

[Hatshepsut]

I don't. That's why I am asking. I am not Leninist; I am not sure what kind of "ist" I am...

Not a bad place to be. I find it unfortunate there have to be so many “ists” and “ites” in this business. Those who subscribe to a definite tendency have the courage of conviction, which can be an advantage. But I don’t see why Marx and Engels themselves must be right about every issue they gave an opinion on; they weren’t clairvoyants of unbounded cognition and they lived a long time ago in a world that differed from ours.

As a communist I don’t see solutions within capitalism, however. We’re led to believe private property an eternal institution under God-given or natural rights when its landed form is only 4000 years old, recent in evolutionary terms, with the modern, capital-forming property concepts arriving on the scene during the 16th to 18th centuries.

Neither syndicalism nor mutualism addresses private property, the Hippopotamus in the room. Mutualism claims property will be in smallholdings with trade upon a free market and finance going through a credit union. I doubt this system could prevent quick emergence of a propertied bourgeoisie. As it’s totally unacceptable to political establishments today, we would need a revolution to inaugurate mutualism. If we’re going to have a revolution, why not just eliminate the private property altogether?

Communism’s past implementations in the USSR and China had sordid histories of course. Both these countries’ revolutions occurred in unfavorable circumstances, then left important problems such as the disarmament of social order and policing unresolved. While I disagree with anarchists that a state can immediately be dispensed with, this camp has raised the corrupting influence of power and need for control of violence as problems I feel communism must solve before it can work.

[Servia]

Could the DOTP look like a syndicalist organized society?