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SittingBull47
14th February 2004, 17:38
Where i used to work before getting fired (a cheap grocery store) I sometimes would take canned goods, food, items, and other things and donate them to a charity organization. My friends at work liked this, they even helped me nearly all the time, and the results were good. Recently, though, I keep hearing things like "no thievery, no matter how benevolent the purpose, can be justified". Maybe so in the eyes of John Law, but I'm sure the families and God would think different.
What do you comrades think? Can it be justified?

rolando
14th February 2004, 19:53
I agree that stealing can be justified. My view is that the grocery store is a bastion of capitalism, and it won't hurt to take a few cans. I would be opposed though if you were stealing from a non-profit or something like that.

The Children of the Revolution
14th February 2004, 20:23
I think "stealing", in a Communist society, WOULD be wrong. It would represent greed and selfishness as you would be taking from the group. Remember, property is theft!!

However, in capitalist society - which we are all living in - I think stealing CAN be justified. You said you stole from a store. This is a capitalist business; its owners undoubtedly have enough to eat. Many people though, presumably the benefactors of these charities, go to bed hungry at night. So I think stealing in this instance, "for the greater good", is FULLY justified.

Redistribution of wealth - Socialism in action!

peaccenicked
14th February 2004, 23:13
Stealing is not really a good idea, it is risky and the punishment may far outweigh the severity of the crime, but I would not rule it out and I think it the duty of the starving to steal food.Communism as advocated by Marx does not abolish personal property but private property, our goal is really to abolish the conditions
that breed poverty and human misery. The rich may call such an attempt theft but it is really reconqest.

Here is a quote from the Irish Socialist leader James Connolly.

"Would you confiscate the property of the capitalist class and rob men of that which they have, perhaps, worked a whole life time to accumulate?

Yes sir, and certainly not.

We would certainly confiscate the property of the capitalist class, but we do not propose to rob anyone. On the contrary, we propose to establish honesty once and forever as the basis of our social relations. This Socialist movement is indeed worthy to be entitled The Great Anti-Theft Movement of the Twentieth Century.

You see, confiscation is one great certainty of the future for every businessman outside the trust. It lies with him to say if it will be confiscation by the Trust in the interest of the Trust, or confiscation by Socialism in the interest of All.

If he resolves to continue to support the capitalist order of society he will surely have his property confiscated. After having, as you say, "worked for a whole lifetime to accumulate" a fortune, to establish a business on what he imagined would be a sound foundation, on some fine day the Trust will enter into competition with him, will invade his market, use their enormous capital to undersell him at ruinous prices, take his customers from him, ruin his business, and finally drive him into bankruptcy, and perhaps to end his days as a pauper.

That is capitalist confiscation! It is going on all around us, and every time the business man who is not a Trust Magnate votes for capitalism, he is working to prepare that fate for himself.

On the other hand, if he works for Socialism it also will confiscate his property. But it will only do so in order to acquire the industrial equipment necessary to establish a system of society in which the whole human race will be secured against the fear of want for all time, a system in which all men and women will be joint heirs and owners of all the intellectual and material conquests made possible by associated effort.

Socialism will confiscate the property of the capitalist and in return will secure the individual against poverty and oppression; it, in return for so confiscating, will assure to all men and women a free, happy and unanxious human life. And that is more than capitalism can assure anyone to-day.

So you see the average capitalist has to choose between two kinds of confiscation. One or the other he must certainly endure. Confiscation by the Trust and consequently bankruptcy, poverty and perhaps pauperism in his old age, or --

Confiscation by Socialism and consequently security, plenty and a Care-Free Life to him and his to the remotest generation.

Which will it be?

But it is their property. Why should Socialists confiscate it?

Their property, eh? Let us see: Here is a cutting from the New York World giving a synopsis of the Annual Report of the Coats Thread Company of Pawtucket, Rhode Island, for 1907. Now, let us examine it, and bear in mind that this company is the basis of the Thread Trust, with branches in Paisley, Scotland, and on the continent of Europe.

Also bear in mind that it is not a "horrible example," but simply a normal type of a normally conducted industry, and therefore what applies to it will apply in a greater or less degree to all others.

This report gives the dividend for the year at 20 per cent per annum. Twenty per cent dividend means 20 cents on the dollar profit. Now, what is a profit?

According to Socialists, profit only exists when all other items of production are paid for. The workers by their labour must create enough wealth to pay for certain items before profit appears. They must pay for the cost of raw material, the wear and tear of machine-ry, buildings, etc. (the depreciation of capital), the wages of superintendence, their own wages, and a certain amount to be left aside as a reserve fund to meet all possible contingencies. After, and only after, all these items have been paid for by their labour, all that is left is profit.

With this company the profit amounted to 20 cents on every dollar invested.

What does this mean? It means that in the course of five years - five times 20 cents equals one dollar - the workers in the industry had created enough profit to buy the whole industry from its present owners. It means that after paying all the expenses of the factory, including their own wages, they created enough profit to buy the whole building, from the roof to the basement, all the offices and agencies, and everything in the shape of capital. All this in five years.

And after they had so bought it from the capitalists it still belonged to the capitalists.

It means that if a capitalist had invested $1,000 in that industry, in the course of five years he would draw out a thousand dollars, and still have a thousand dollars lying there untouched; in the course of ten years he would draw two thousand dollars, in fifteen years he would draw three thousand dollars. And still his first thousand dollars would be as virgin as ever.

You understand that this has been going on ever since the capitalist system came into being; all the capital in the world has been paid for by the working class over and over again, and we are still creating it, and recreating it. And the oftener we buy it the less it belongs to us.

The capital of the master class is not their property; it is the unpaid labour of the working class - "the hire of the labourer kept back by fraud."

Oh, the capitalist has his anxieties too. And the worker has often a good time.

Sure: Say, where were you for the holidays?
* * *
Were you tempted to go abroad? Did you visit Europe? Did you riot, in all the abandonment of a wage slave let loose, among the pleasure haunts of the world?

Perhaps you went to the Riviera; perhaps you luxuriated in ecstatic worship of that glorious bit of nature's handiwork where the blue waters of the Mediterranean roll in all their entrancing splendor against the shores of classic Italy.
* * *
Perhaps you rambled among the vine-clad hills of sunny France, and visited the spots hallowed by the hand of that country's glorious history.
* * *
Perhaps you sailed up the castellated Rhine, toasted the eyes of bewitching German frauleins in frothy German beer, explored the recesses of the legend haunted Hartz mountains, and established a nodding acquaintance with the Spirit of the Brocken.

Perhaps you traversed the lakes and fjords of Norway, sat down in awe before the neglected magnificence of the Alhambra, had a cup of coffee with Menelik of Abyssinia, smelt afar off the odors of the streets of Morocco, climbed the Pyramids of Egypt, shared the hospitable tent of the Bedouin, visited Cyprus, looked in at Constantinople, ogled the dark-eyed beauties of Circassia, rubbed up against the Cossack in his Ural mountains, or...

Perhaps you lay in bed all day in order to save a meal, and listened to your wife wondering how she could make ends meet with a day's pay short in the weekly wages.

And whilst you thus squandered your substance in riotous living, did you ever stop to think of your master - your poor, dear, overworked, tired master?
* * *
Did you ever stop to reflect upon the pitiable condition of that individual who so kindly provides you with employment, and does no useful work himself in order that you may get plenty of it?
* * *
When you consider how hard a task it was for you to decide in what manner you should spend your Holiday; where you should go for that ONE DAY, then you must perceive how hard it is for your masters to find a way in which to spend the practically perpetual holiday which you force upon them by your love for work.
* * *
Ah, yes, that large section of our masters who have realised that ideal of complete idleness after which all our masters strive, those men who do not work, never did work, and with the help of God and the ignorance of the people - never intend to work, how terrible must be their lot in life!
* * *
We, who toil from early morn till late at night, from January till December, from childhood to old age, have no care or trouble or mental anxiety to cross our mind - except the landlord, the fear of loss of employment, the danger of sickness, the lack of common necessities, to say nothing of luxuries, for our children, the insolence of our superiors, the unhealthy condition of our homes, the exhausting nature of our toil, the lack of all opportunities of mental cultivation, and the ever-present question whether we shall shuffle off this mortal coil in a miserable garret, be killed by hard work, or die in the Poorhouse.

With these trifling exceptions we have nothing to bother us; but the boss, ah, the poor, poor boss!

He has everything to bother him. Whilst we are amusing ourselves in the hold of a ship shoveling coal, swinging a hammer in front of a forge, toiling up a ladder with bricks, stitching until our eyes grow dim at the board, gaily riding up and down for twelve hours per day, seven days per week, on a trolley car, riding around the city in all weather with teams or swinging by the skin of our teeth on the iron framework of a skyscraper, standing at our ease OUTSIDE the printing office door listening to the musical click of the linotype as it performs the work we used to do INSIDE, telling each other comforting stories about the new machinery which takes our places as carpenters, harness-makers, tinplate-workers, labourers, etc., in short whilst we are enjoying ourselves, free from all mental worry.

Our unselfish tired-out bosses are sitting at home, with their feet on the table, softly patting the bottom button of their vests.

Working with their brains.

Poor bosses! Mighty brains!

Without our toil they would never get the education necessary to develop their brains; if we were not defrauded by their class of the fruits of our toil we could provide for education enough to develop the mental powers of all, and so deprive the ruling class of the last vestige of an excuse for clinging to mastership, viz., their assumed intellectual superiority.

I say "assumed," because the greater part of the brainwork of industry today is performed by men taken from the ranks of the workers, and paid high salaries in proportion as they develop expertness as slave-drivers.

As education spreads among the people the workers will want to enjoy life more; they will assert their right to the full fruits of their labour, and by that act of self-assertion lay the foundation of that Socialist Republic in which labour will be so easy, and the reward so great, that life will seem a perpetual holiday.
* * *
But Socialism is against religion. I can't be a Socialist and be a Christian.
O, quit your fooling! That talk is all right for those who know nothing of the relations between capital and labour, or are innocent of any knowledge of the processes of modern industry, or imagine that men, in their daily struggles for bread or fortunes, are governed by the Sermon on the Mount.

But between workingmen that talk is absurd. We know that Socialism bears upon daily life in the workshop, and that religion does not; we know that the man who never set foot in a church in his lifetime will, if he is rich, be more honored by Christian society than the poor man who goes to church every Sunday, and says his prayers morning and evening; we know that the capitalists of all religions pay more for the service of a good lawyer to keep them out of the clutches of the law than for the services of a good priest to keep them out of the clutches of the devil; and we never heard a capitalist, who, in his business, respected the Sermon on the Mount as much as he did the decisions of the Supreme Court.

These things we know. We also know that neither capitalist nor worker can practice the moral precepts of religion, and without its moral precepts a religion is simply a sham. If a religion cannot enforce its moral teachings upon its votaries it has as little relation to actual life as the pre-election promises of a politician have to legislation.

We know that Christianity teaches us to love our neighbour as ourselves, but we also know that if a capitalist attempted to run his business upon that plan his relatives would have no difficulty in getting lawyers, judges and physicians to declare him incompetent to conduct his affairs in the business world.

He would not be half as certain of reaching Heaven in the next world as he would be of getting into the "bughouse" in this.

And, as for the worker. Well, in the fall of 1908, the New York World printed an advertisement for a teamster in Brooklyn, wages to be $12 per week. Over 700 applicants responded. Now, could each of these men love their neighbours in that line of hungry competitors for that pitiful wage?

As each man stood in line in that awful parade of misery could he pray for his neighbour to get the job, and could he be expected to follow up his prayer by giving up his chance, and so making certain the prolongation of the misery of his wife and little ones?

No, my friend, Socialism is a bread and butter question. It is a question of the stomach; it is going to be settled in the factories, mines and ballot boxes of this country and is not going to be settled at the altar or in the church.

This is what our well-fed friends call a "base, material standpoint," but remember that beauty and genius and art and poetry and all the finer efflorescences of the higher nature of man can only be realised in all their completeness upon the material basis of a healthy body, that not only an army but the whole human race marches upon its stomach, and then you will grasp the full wisdom of our position.

That the question to be settled by Socialism is the effect of private ownership of the means of production upon the well-being of the race; that we are determined to have a straight fight upon the question between those who believe that such private ownership is destructive of human well-being and those who believe it to be beneficial, that as men of all religions and of none are in the ranks of the capitalists, and men of all religions and of none are on the side of the workers the attempt to make religion an issue in the question is an intrusion, an impertinence and an absurdity.

Personally I am opposed to any system wherein the capitalist is more powerful than God Almighty. You need not serve God unless you like, and may refuse to serve Him and grow fat, prosperous and universally respected. But if you refuse to serve the capitalist your doom is sealed; misery and poverty and public odium await you.

No worker is compelled to enter a church and to serve God; every worker is compelled to enter the employment of a capitalist and serve him.

As Socialists we are concerned to free mankind from the servitude forced upon them as a necessity of their life; we propose to allow the question of all kinds of service voluntarily rendered to be settled by the emancipated human race of the future.

I do not deny that Socialists often leave the church. But why do they do so? Is their defection from the church a result of our attitude towards religion; or is it the result of the attitude of the church and its ministers towards Socialism?

Let us take a case in point, one of those cases that are being paralleled every day in our midst. An Irish Catholic joins the Socialist movement. He finds that as a rule the Socialist men and women are better educated than their fellows; he finds that they are immensely cleaner in speech and thought than are the adherents of capitalism in the same class; that they are devoted husbands and loyal wives, loving and cheerful fathers and mothers, skilful and industrious workers in the shops and office, and that although poor and needy as a rule, yet that they continually bleed themselves to support their cause, and give up for Socialism what many others spend in the saloon.

He finds that a drunken Socialist is as rare as a white blackbird, and that a Socialist of criminal tendencies is such a rare avis that when one is found the public press heralds it forth as a great discovery.

Democratic and republican jailbirds are so common that the public press do not regard their existence as "news" to anybody, nor yet does the public press think it necessary to say that certain criminals belong to the Protestant or Catholic religions. That is nothing unusual, and therefore not worth printing. But a criminal Socialist - that would be news indeed!

Our Irish Catholic Socialist gradually begins to notice these things. He looks around and he finds the press full of reports of crimes, murders, robberies, bank swindlers, forgeries, debauches, gambling transactions, and midnight orgies in which the most revolting indecencies are perpetrated. He investigates and he discovers that the perpetrators of these crimes were respectable capitalists, pillars of society, and red-hot enemies of Socialism, and that the dives in which the highest and the lowest meet together in a saturnalia of vice contribute a large proportion of the campaign funds of the capitalist political parties.

Some Sunday he goes to Mass as usual, and he finds that at Gospel the priest launches out into a political speech and tells the congregation that the honest, self-sacrificing, industrious, clean men and women, whom he calls "comrades" are a wicked, impious, dissolute sect, desiring to destroy the home, to distribute the earnings of the provident among the idle and lazy of the world, and reveling in all sorts of impure thoughts about women.

And as this Irish Catholic Socialist listens to this foul libel, what wonder if the hot blood of anger rushes to his face, and he begins to believe that the temple of God has itself been sold to the all-desecrating grasp of the capitalist?

While he is yet wondering what to think of the matter, he hears that his immortal soul will be lost if he fails to vote for capitalism, and he reflects that if he lined up with the brothel keepers, gambling house proprietors, race track swindlers, and white slave traders to vote the capitalist ticket, this same priest would tell him he was a good Catholic and loyal son of the church.

At such a juncture the Irish Catholic Socialist often rises up, goes out of the church and wipes its dust off his feet forever. Then we are told that Socialism took him away from the church. But did it? Was it not rather the horrible spectacle of a priest of God standing up in the Holy Presence lying about and slandering honest men and women, and helping to support polidcal parties whose campaign fund in every large city represents more bestiality than ever Sodom and Gomorrah knew?

These are the things that drive Socialists from the church, and the responsibility for every soul so lost lies upon those slanderers and not upon the Socialist movement"

hazard
15th February 2004, 02:24
many forms of stealing are supposedly justified

MASS THEFT is perfectly legitimate

this process is called PROFIT

that is, when an item or product r service is sold for more than it is worth

capitalism can only function under the ideology that theft is not only condonable, put allowed to continue on a scale as wide and as vast as the entire spectrum of the world exists

Xvall
15th February 2004, 03:36
If propety is theft, you can't really 'steal' it, now can you? Anyways, stealing can sometimes be justified, especially when the person in possession of the 'property' had no right to it in the first place.

Palmares
15th February 2004, 04:48
I guess the question is whether you 'want' to steal the given item(s), or whether you 'need' to steal it.

Desire or life and death desperation.

So, it can be justified.

The good 'ol "If the ends justifys the means".

Dawood
15th February 2004, 18:01
The question is rather, is it justifiable to pay, thus supporting capitalism?

redstar2000
15th February 2004, 18:12
Office technology makes it much easier for workers to steal important information from their employers, a study has shown.

The majority of those questioned, 72%, had no ethical problems stealing information to help them in a new post. Most, 58%, thought that, in moral terms, it ranked with exaggerating insurance claims.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/technology/3486397.stm

Works for me! :D

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

mia wallace
15th February 2004, 18:16
i think stealing can be justified in the kind if society we live in, but only if you are stealing to give it to someone who needs it, and if you can't give it without stealing. i think it can't be justefied if you're rich and still stealing, no metter who are you attending to give it to (except if it can't be bought).

Solace
15th February 2004, 23:30
If the stealing is done to satisfy a basic need, then it can be justified. What should not be accepted is the theft for the sake of accumulation.

However, I think there should not be a need for stealing in the first place.


The question is rather, is it justifiable to pay, thus supporting capitalism?

You cannot survive in the current system without buying. So, following your logic, you cannot survive without supporting capitalism. :unsure:

New Tolerance
16th February 2004, 00:09
What's your defination of stealing? (Or, what SHOULD be the defination of stealing?)

Stapler
16th February 2004, 01:39
stealing is: taking something from someone else that is not rightfully yours. I think that what you did is stealing, although it is justifieable, you gave to people who were impoverished by an unfair economic system, that nearly confines people to the social class - or caste - in which they were born.

Bad Grrrl Agro
16th February 2004, 02:31
I think robin hood justified stealing it all depends on who you steal from.

revolutionindia
16th February 2004, 04:03
stealing is not justified whatever the reason.

Stealing degrades you and makes you a sinner.
And every sin you commit the lesser are your chances of moving on to the next world.
Whatever the benefits they accrue to the beneficiary
This reminds me of a story
i will tell it in short

There was a robber who used to steal money form rich people
on the highways
Once he met buddha and tried to rob him,buddha tried to make him see light and asked him why he does that.
He replied that to feed his family his family supports him
in his work
buddha asked him to go home and ask his family if they support his
actions
On reaching home he asks everine what they think of his crimes
They all say
"that it is his duty to feed his family however that how he does it is left to him he will have to bear the consquences of his actions"

similarly
It is our duty to see that poor homeless people and hungry people are fed and clothed properly.
How we do it will only affect us.

The means do not justify the end
the means are equally important as the end

Because if the means are right then the end will definately not go wrong

If you dont eat one night and give that food to some one who needs it more
then it can be appreciated .

My simple philosophy in life is

TO BE GOOD AND DO GOOD

pandora
16th February 2004, 05:31
Stealing unless one is starving is inappropriate. But reminded of the bread riots in Russia, I withdraw judgement on people who do this.
From a Buddhist perspective, it is bad karma to steal, it creates poverty in the mind, but as a socialist working to even out the extremes of rich and poor, I believe it is worse karma not to offer to others, even of course books in the bible speak of giving a certain share of one's crop to the poor, although this is left in some parts of France it is not in the United States, so what is given there is not here, and many people go hungry.
Still I think one should always ask first, even when hungry, even if some people are stingy, others will create good karma and feel good about them selves that they are helping others in the community by giving. This is good from a socialist perspective. If people are starving and we need food, and no one will give it, and I can not shoot it, fish it, or dig it out of the ground, I could be reduced to stealing, but I would prefer to leave an IOU and an apology.
There must be respect and love in the community even if it means sacrificing oneself to gain it. The penaltys here for theft are outrageous, a full strike on three strikes you're out for a yogurt for the homeless! The laws are unfair.
Still human beings must be willing to speak to each other of need.

Don't Change Your Name
16th February 2004, 05:58
Well stealing can be justified in capitalism in many situations, but not on egualitarian societies.
And stealing in capitalism should be done to very rich greedy bastrds, especially if they threat people like shit, not on a small shop, otherwise we are just helping capitalism and possibly taking the small businessmen to poverty.

cubist
16th February 2004, 12:44
i would say that if you are stealing food to feed then yes it is fine, if however you are stealing in order to obtain riches you are nothing more than the lowest form of life.

now i say this as stealing to live. ie food and for the clothes literally on your back. It is the states job to ensure that you do not need to steal food and clothes for you to wear, if they are failing to provide then you should take what you are owed



stealing is not justified whatever the reason.

Stealing degrades you and makes you a sinner.
And every sin you commit the lesser are your chances of moving on to the next world.
Whatever the benefits they accrue to the beneficiary
This reminds me of a story
i will tell it in short

no Sin is a made up thing. it is breaking the law you should be concerned with not sinning against a blindly held faith.

next world you will be moving to the next world quicker if you don't EAT


everything i say is to do with stealing being the ONLY option, not the easy option.


There was a robber who used to steal money form rich people
on the highways
Once he met buddha and tried to rob him,buddha tried to make him see light and asked him why he does that.
He replied that to feed his family his family supports him
in his work
buddha asked him to go home and ask his family if they support his
actions
On reaching home he asks everine what they think of his crimes
They all say
"that it is his duty to feed his family however that how he does it is left to him he will have to bear the consquences of his actions"

Yes he will the consequences of Scoiety not GOD/GODS. would you support your dad if he stole to feed you or would you condem him to hell? he kept you alive after all, he did only steal from those who weren't in need.


similarly
It is our duty to see that poor homeless people and hungry people are fed and clothed properly.
How we do it will only affect us.

The means do not justify the end
the means are equally important as the end

Because if the means are right then the end will definately not go wrong

if the means are right? what about all the people in prison when they have done nothing wrong ask them what they think of that statement.

yes it is our duty to support those less fortunate than oneself thats why we pay taxes unfortunately two words ruin this DEFENSE BUDGET. and the belief that people put themselves in the situation and that they have no one else to blame but themselves


If you dont eat one night and give that food to some one who needs it more
then it can be appreciated .

My simple philosophy in life is
TO BE GOOD AND DO GOOD

To be good and do good, what is Good?
Is good keeping you and your family with a roof over they're head and some food to fill them and clothe they're backs?

Is good leaving them to die becuase you don't want to face the rath of a god you don't even know exists?

Anastacia
16th February 2004, 13:30
I think that stealing for oneself is wrong, but I am ready to steal if the money goes for good purpose. I wouldn't steal to myself if I don't need it. And even if I need, I'm not sure. Maybe if my life depends on it. But I would only steal from a person who owns more than he need.

Danton
16th February 2004, 19:29
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 05:03 AM
stealing is not justified whatever the reason.

Stealing degrades you and makes you a sinner.
And every sin you commit the lesser are your chances of moving on to the next world.

My simple philosophy in life is

TO BE GOOD AND DO GOOD
:blink:

Yes well, stealing, theft.. Ok it is a revolutionary activity and I wholeheartedly support it, redistribution of wealth... I make a point of stealing at least one item per day..

The highwaymen,social bandits and buccaneers like Dick Turpin, Pancho Villa and Michele Caruso were a revolutionary breed...

bombeverything
16th February 2004, 21:32
Yes it most certainly can.

Take what you can. Stealing is the only way to avoid feeding those parasites commonly referred to as 'capitalists'.

Faceless
16th February 2004, 21:43
There are two forms of theft in this society as I see it:

> the "legitimised" theft as enshrined by law.

> the "illegitimate" or illegal theft.

In Capitalist society the "legitimate" theft of employment and expoitation is neccessarily directed against the wage-labourer. The capitalist is the ultimate thief as we have all come to recognise. As it is committed against the innocent proletarian (who is innocent because he does not commit this theft) and harms his standard of living pushing him toward desperation it is wrong. It makes an entire "dispossesed" class. The law which makes this legitimate is written by the ruling elite and was written for the very purpose of preserving their privilage.
Illegal theft on the other hand is almost exclusively committed against the possessing class, the bourgeoisie. Attacking the dispossessed for one thing is futile anyway. Why does a person do this though? Out of need and greed. Is it really necessary to distinguish the difference between these? After all, the theft of something already stolen is not theft at all. Just as redistribution of stolen goods isn't wrong, no matter how badly redistributed it is. At best it isn't helpful for the victim but it isn't harmful at any rate. Theft from petty bourgeois' of the illegitimate kind isn't wrong if it is for survival as survival is the right of a victim of the under class.. Of course religion damns it because religion has been moulded by the ruling elite to serve their ends.

What would theft look like in Communist society (if it would exist at all)? One fact is that it would be seriously cut in magnitude as the lunpenproletariat is once and for all fed and housed. If there would be any then it would be wrong if society truly becomes classless (and it would be collective responsibility to stop it, but I seriously doubt that many other than those affected by mental disease would commit theft. Those who would commit it need help not criminalisation because where would you sell it in Communist society when you can get what you need for free.