The USSR -

[rezider]

Why is it that everytime someone brings up communism, they immediately jump to the USSR and start bashing Marx (one has to wonder what Marx has to do with the politics of the USSR), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and so on, talking about millions dead, hunger, lack of freedom...

I can't say that I've read every history book on the Soviet Union (taken into account that there are thousands of anti-soviet history books for some reason), but based on my father's knowledge, a colonel (we're Bulgarian) in the air forces who has lived and studied in Russia for many years, and my own research none of those claims seem true. My father has shown me albums with tons of pictures and things seem perfect and consistent with what I've read. He's shown me top secret military bases, the cosmodrome - and such things are believed to be so secret that outside people vanish if they ever entered them. There's not a single picture that shows in any way that those areas of the world, including Bulgaria, life was horrifying and miserable.

And even when I compare the character of my relatives on my father's side (who were all communists -- all of them with some type of uniform be it military, firefighter, police (милиция), medical or the bodyguards of our last communist leader Todor Zhivkov; I'd like to point out that my grandmother wasn't a member of the party, nor have most of her brothers, but they still had great jobs) to the character of others who are full on liberal capitalists or theists striving for theocracy I see that my long dead relatives were far better people than any of these so called MORAL anti-communists who spit American propaganda everywhere without acknowledging the terrifying things the USA has done. My relatives were friendly, always smiling and helping others and those degrated people were using their friends, lying left and right and making a living out of misleading people. I believe you understand my situation.

I have some 20 years of age behind my back, but I wasn't born back in those days. So where does this impression come from? Why is the anti-communist propaganda so strong and why is it mainly focused towards Russia and the now gone Soviet Union?

[Tim Cornelis]

Anecdotal experiences of appearances are the poorest form of knowledge, to paraphrase Hegel. Especially if they are by state agents. Do you think household pictures of Iranian Revolutionary Guard will reveal the lack of free speech or absence of gay rights? Additionally, mass starvation didn't happen after World War II, and only in the Soviet Union, so obviously people will not likely have a living memory of that.

'Communists with uniforms' are professional Tankies, I can't take that seriously, and their personality isn't a vindication. From what I've been told, bigots in the south of the USA are often the most friendly, kind, warm, and hospitable people there are.

[RedWorker]

There is little doubt that the quality of life for the average person living in the USSR and similar states was comparable to if not superior to that of the U.S. and Western Europe, according to several indicators documented by reliable sources, including food intake, housing, employment, access to and quality of education and healthcare and others. Having said that, they were not communist societies (nor socialist) in the least, and it is undoubtedly true that political repression resulted in many deaths in the USSR amongst several other events. There was, of course, lack of freedom - any political organization independent from the state-sanctioned elements was entirely violently repressed.

The politics of the USSR, Bulgaria and similar states were not a reflection of communism or socialism but rather of Stalinism which finds its conclusion in full acceptance of the free-market model by the political bureaucracy in the late 1980s. They were, instead, the remnants of a communist revolution the failure of which was later spread around the Earth.

The experiences of top state officials such as police and soldiers do not really say anything about the experiences of the ordinary person - and such 'uniformed' individuals should be strongly criticized rather than the opposite. You should stop relying on personal experience and anecdotes replacing actual historical information. That's what your rivals also rely on.

In 1917, homosexuality and abortion were legalized in Russia thanks to the communist revolution. Only a few years later these rights were removed by Stalin. These are clear examples of 'lack of freedom' as well as Stalinist counter-revolution.

[Wyboth]

Why is it that everytime someone brings up communism, they immediately jump to the USSR and start bashing Marx (one has to wonder what Marx has to do with the politics of the USSR), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and so on, talking about millions dead, hunger, lack of freedom...

It's because this is all they know about communism. High schools in the United States teach that the USSR was a terrible place where nobody was free to do anything, and that Stalin caused a famine, and was responsible for 4 times as many deaths as Hitler. None of this is true; it is all based on William Hearst, Robert Conquest, and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, who were either estimating, or outright lying. If you want a debunking of these claims (besides what you have already seen), look here: reddit(dot)com/r/communism/comments/2pwxm5/the_debunking_anticommunism_masterpost/?

The schools teach this, even though it's been debunked, because teenagers are impressionable, and they want to turn them away from communism. So, they don't tell them what communism actually is, and simply tell them communism is horrible, and it's responsible for millions of deaths, while ignoring all of the deaths capitalism is responsible for. I always start out by debunking the claims they make about the USSR, and then tell them what communism really is. The reaction I usually get is "That doesn't sound bad at all!"

[rezider]

Thank you for the answers!

I read quite a few history books on that part of Bulgaria's history and I've read a large part of Engels' and Marx' works, but I've barely scratched the surface when it comes to the USSR. It is however true that back in those days (here in Bulgaria) life was much simpler, calmer, easier and people were very happy including the civilians. The lack of freedom, though, was present. I would go as far to say that it is understandable given the situation with the USA as a passive aggressive force (both sides picking on each other) and USSR trying to create the specific lifestyle they're aiming for. As with all nations, people weren't happy about what they lacked (private property, jeans, the ability to choose BMW or Mercedes, luxuries I consider primitive and completely stupid) but barely noticed what they had: free healthcare, the possibility to study and work in the field you want, the ability to grow. I think this is one of the most important things - to grow (strive to be better). To quote Alber Camus, 'Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better.' But the lack of luxury has proven to be of the utmost importance to us.

There were restrictions, as you pointed out, about gay marriage, abortion and so on. But all those things were most likely to be polished out the more we learned.

People die. And as long as they die, ideas will change and a new day will always come.

I didn't know they legalized homosexuality and abortion. Could you elaborate further?

[tuwix]

Why is it that everytime someone brings up communism, they immediately jump to the USSR and start bashing Marx (one has to wonder what Marx has to do with the politics of the USSR), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and so on, talking about millions dead, hunger, lack of freedom...

I can't say that I've read every history book on the Soviet Union (taken into account that there're thousands of anti-soviet history books for some reason), but based on my father's knowledge, a colonel (we're Bulgarian) in the air forces who has lived and studied in Russia for many years, none of those claims seem true. My father has shown me albums with tons of pictures and things seem perfect. He's shown me top secret military bases, the cosmodrome. There's not a single picture that shows in any way that people in those areas of the world, including Bulgaria, have lived in misery.

And even when I compare the character of my relatives on my father's side (who were all communists -- all of them with some type of uniform be it military, firefighter, police (милиция), medical or the bodyguards of our last communist leader Todor Zhivkov) to the character of others who are full on liberal capitalists or theists striving for theocracy I see that my long dead relatives were far better people than any of these so called MORAL anti-communists. They were friendly, always smiling and helping others. I believe you understand my situation.

I have some 20 years of age behind my back, but I wasn't born back in those days. So where does this impression come from? Why is the anti-communist propaganda so strong and why is it mainly focused towards Russia and the now gone Soviet Union?

According to bourgeois media the Soviet Union was source of world communism and this is why communism is considered by them only int his context.

But I think you confuse communist pretenders with communists. To sign in to the party that has 'communist' in its name doesn't mean to be communist. The party must prove real communist intentions. Nobody will convince me that so-called Communist party of China that restored classic capitalism in China is in any way communist. And it's the same case for parties that were introducing Stalinism and state capitalism in central and eastern Europe, in Bulgaria for example...

[John Nada]

Why is it that everytime someone brings up communism, they immediately jump to the USSR and start bashing Marx (one has to wonder what Marx has to do with the politics of the USSR), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and so on, talking about millions dead, hunger, lack of freedom...How come when capitalism or bourgeois "democracy" is brought up no one says,"Fuck John Locke (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Locke)! He personally killed and enslaved billions of people!"?

Capitalist countries with governments influenced by John Locke's philosophy(like the US) have no problem killing, letting people starve or depriving them of freedom. Difference being that under those past attempts at constructing socialism providing bear necessities is a collective responsibility, whereas under plain old capitalism it's ostensibly the individual's responsibility. Anything goes wrong in the former, it's all blamed on socialism(regardless of whether it's is) and due to guilt by association, Marx's too. Anything good is in spite of socialist construction(it's never "Marx put people into space").

With capitalism all the death and oppression is pinned on the individual victim or exported abroad via imperialism. All the good is capitalism letting the individual capitalist make empires, the bad is a personal failure. Capitalism is absolved by committing it's crimes in nations beside "their own", and not pulling the trigger but leaving people to starve.
I can't say that I've read every history book on the Soviet Union (taken into account that there're thousands of anti-soviet history books for some reason), but based on my father's knowledge, a colonel (we're Bulgarian) in the air forces who has lived and studied in Russia for many years, none of those claims seem true. My father has shown me albums with tons of pictures and things seem perfect. He's shown me top secret military bases, the cosmodrome. There's not a single picture that shows in any way that people in those areas of the world, including Bulgaria, have lived in misery.

And even when I compare the character of my relatives on my father's side (who were all communists -- all of them with some type of uniform be it military, firefighter, police (милиция), medical or the bodyguards of our last communist leader Todor Zhivkov) to the character of others who are full on liberal capitalists or theists striving for theocracy I see that my long dead relatives were far better people than any of these so called MORAL anti-communists. They were friendly, always smiling and helping others. I believe you understand my situation.Anyone who's even somewhat Marxist is going to be better than anti-communist neoliberals and theocrats by default, even though the CPSU and the BCP went totally revisionist. Who the bourgeoisie put in charge now only makes it all the more obvious.

To be fair your family was likely more privileged than most. Though Bulgaria was more progressive than the US in such things like decriminalizing homosexuality, towards the end the BCP under Zhivkov took an anti-Marxist line on Bulgarian Turks by denying them self-determination and imposing forced assimilation.
I have some 20 years of age behind my back, but I wasn't born back in those days. So where does this impression come from? Why is the anti-communist propaganda so strong and why is it mainly focused towards Russia and the now gone Soviet Union?The USSR and the Eastern bloc were the US's and NATO's enemy 1#. Any and every attempt at constructing socialism will get slandered, even(especially) if it did everything right and made a worker's paradise. Guarantee next revolution it'll go into overdrive. Even in Marx's day he joked newspapers said he ate babies:lol:.

The imperialist governments spent billions pumping out propaganda to make all those countries look like hell on Earth. It was a psychological war against the Eastern Bloc and various anti-imperialist movements. The bourgeoisie didn't want workers and oppressed peoples getting any smart ideas. People's entire careers were devoted to it. Anti-communism and neoliberalism have achieved hegemony.

[Thirsty Crow]

Why is it that everytime someone brings up communism, they immediately jump to the USSR and start bashing Marx (one has to wonder what Marx has to do with the politics of the USSR), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and so on, talking about millions dead, hunger, lack of freedom... I think there's a perfectly legitimate reason for jumping to the issue of ex-USSR. After all, it was the first historical instance of a social revolution resulting in the formation of a state which proclaimed both itself socialist and the wider social relations as basically classless.

Basically, since the idea was that class relations in the USSR were "non-antagonistic".

Marx is considered the intellectual godfather of the political-administrative ruling class. Of course, any argument about Marx's responsibility is silly, but that's the reason I suppose. Millions dead, slave labor, brutal repression of the working class, yeah those were phenomena that can be associated with historical figures. It's necessary that communists today engage with this infamous historical legacy.


I can't say that I've read every history book on the Soviet Union (taken into account that there're thousands of anti-soviet history books for some reason), but based on my father's knowledge, a colonel (we're Bulgarian) in the air forces who has lived and studied in Russia for many years, none of those claims seem true. My father has shown me albums with tons of pictures and things seem perfect. He's shown me top secret military bases, the cosmodrome. There's not a single picture that shows in any way that people in those areas of the world, including Bulgaria, have lived in misery.

That's a really lousy way to form opinion on a historical state. Photographs show only the actual thing(s) being photographed, and nothing else.


And even when I compare the character of my relatives on my father's side (who were all communists -- all of them with some type of uniform be it military, firefighter, police (милиция), medical or the bodyguards of our last communist leader Todor Zhivkov) to the character of others who are full on liberal capitalists or theists striving for theocracy I see that my long dead relatives were far better people than any of these so called MORAL anti-communists. They were friendly, always smiling and helping others. I believe you understand my situation.

That's another matter.

But even though I kind of understand your more personal concerns here, it would be inadvisable to let these be the basic building blocks of your understanding of history.

[rezider]

It's been quite I while since I've heard sober and reasonable arguments.

It seems that I've made a bit of a wrong impression with what I've written, so I had to edit it... a lot. I understand that I gave you the impression that I am basing my knowledge only on what my father has told me, which is incorrect. I initially faced this problem more often the I was growing up. People I've known since first grade gradually turned away from it (back in those days all we knew is that 'it was good during dad's time'). And the more time passed the more I began to see the bigger picture - everyone, everywhere was bashing communism and everytime I spoke of Marx and Engels, they would just shun me because they couldn't deal with the arguments I presented. For me philosophy is something of a hobby and Marx and Engels were a fine addition to my knowledge. Unfortunately... I still can't explain how this psychology of the masses managed to turn communists into ex-communists.

[Exterminatus]

They immediately jump on the USSR because the USSR claimed itself to be a paragon of socialism and socialism is the only force which can force change in class relations and thus destroy bourgeoisie class.

To be honest, the USSR did give them plenty of material to work with.

[Cliff Paul]

There is little doubt that the quality of life for the average person living in the USSR and similar states was comparable to if not superior to that of the U.S. and Western Europe, according to several indicators documented by reliable sources, including food intake, housing, employment, access to and quality of education and healthcare and others.

What sources are you referring to?

[RedWorker]

I didn't know they legalized homosexuality and abortion. Could you elaborate further?

The communist revolution in Russia in 1917 abolished laws on sexual morality. The idea was that the state should have no interference on sexual morality. Stalin, as one of the most visible figures of the counter-revolution, aimed to promote a traditional view of the family, sexual morality and sexist ideas of women as "children-breeders". This is, of course, an entirely conservative, authoritarian and anti-communist outlook.


What sources are you referring to?

Any source that details such statistics. Human Rights in the Soviet Union (https://archive.org/details/HumanRightsInTheSovietUnion), though you may not agree with its analyses and/or arguments, provides statistics about USSR (and other countries) from non-USSR sources relating to quality of life among other things

[ñángara]

Why is it that everytime someone brings up communism, they immediately jump to the USSR and start bashing Marx (one has to wonder what Marx has to do with the politics of the USSR), Lenin, Stalin, Khrushchev and so on, talking about millions dead, hunger, lack of freedom...
The real concern to the communists of today about this western propaganda is how some Russian communists could screw the socialist revolution that much.