Cambodia, Pol Pot, and the Khmer Rouge

[Red, Green, and Gold]

Reading a bit about Pol Pot's terrible genocide in Cambodia, I was shocked. I had known somewhat of his atrocities, but was unaware of the scale that they were on. It had been estimated that Pol Pot killed almost 1/3 of the Cambodian population.

I was just wondering if any of you had any more good information about Pol Pot and his regime, and about the current situation in Cambodia.

Thanks...!

[praxis1966]

I don't pretend to be an expert on the subject, but there is a pretty good movie about your question. It details the events in Vietnam and Thailand as well, but is mostly about Cambodia during that period. It's a documentary, with Spalding Gray doing a one man stage show about his experience playing in the movie The Killing Fields. It does, however, contain pile upon pile of information on Indochina of the 50s, 60s and 70s. I couldn't find a DVD copy of it, but I did manage to track down a VHS copy at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6304152868/qid%3D1076660455/sr%3D11-1/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F1/002-1284048-8180001). It's called Swimming to Cambodia, and I highly recommend it.

[bubbrubb]

While studying in Paris he accepted the communist ideology from 1949 -52.In 1967, the Khmer rouge took up arms against the governemnt of Cambodia.POl pot was a part of this group. They didn't win until 1975. Pol Pot led Cambodia from 1975-79 during which he killed 2 million citizens in his agressive agrarian land refroms but was later ousted on a border dispute. He went into hiding and a guerilla war began. At one point they had amost 10,000 men, but most revolted over elections. He also ordered the killing of his wife and nine kids.In June 1997, one of his generals known as "the butcher" captured him and sentenced him to life improsonment with the Khmer Rouge and he later died of a heart attack in 1998.

I basically just summed up this article http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9804/16/p...line/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9804/16/pol.pot.timeline/index.html)

[LuZhiming]

The claim that Pol Pot killed millions of people is based solely on the fact that millions of people died. When one considers the massive U.S. bombing campaign at that time, it is fairly reasonable to conclude that Pol Pot's massacres are greatly exagerated.

Oh yes, and don't forget the U.S. and Britain arming Pol Pot and trying to keep him as the legal ruler of Cambodia (Through the U.N.) after the Vietnamese had overthrown him. :o

[Red, Green, and Gold]

Interesting stuff. Thanks to all who have replied.

[Urban Rubble]

The claim that Pol Pot killed millions of people is based solely on the fact that millions of people died. When one considers the massive U.S. bombing campaign at that time, it is fairly reasonable to conclude that Pol Pot's massacres are greatly exagerated.

That is a bunch of shit. Pure 100% bullshit.

Pol Pot's crimes were not exagerated. He ordered the killings of milllions based on what jobs they had. You've heard people say that the Khmer Rouge bandits looked at people's hands and killed them based on how worn they were ? Sounds far fetched right ? Well it actually happened, alot. My girlfriend's grandfather was beheaded with a sword after they looked at his hands. They asked him what his job was an he replied that he was a teacher, slice, head gone, rolling on the floor. My girlfriend's mother sat there and watched it happen. She was spared because she was some sort of farm worker. Out of their 23 member immediate family, 8 males were killed without trial, 4 women killed without trial. 5 escaped Cambodia for the U.S and 6 were never heard from again. When her parents got here they were in such poverty that they were forced to give her up for adoption, her father died from a sickness he picked up on the journey.

This is a common story with Cambodians from that era. Fuck Pol Pot and don't ever try to downplay his crimes in my presence.

[Red, Green, and Gold]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2004, 08:49 PM

The claim that Pol Pot killed millions of people is based solely on the fact that millions of people died. When one considers the massive U.S. bombing campaign at that time, it is fairly reasonable to conclude that Pol Pot's massacres are greatly exagerated.

That is a bunch of shit. Pure 100% bullshit.

Pol Pot's crimes were not exagerated. He ordered the killings of milllions based on what jobs they had. You've heard people say that the Khmer Rouge bandits looked at people's hands and killed them based on how worn they were ? Sounds far fetched right ? Well it actually happened, alot. My girlfriend's grandfather was beheaded with a sword after they looked at his hands. They asked him what his job was an he replied that he was a teacher, slice, head gone, rolling on the floor. My girlfriend's mother sat there and watched it happen. She was spared because she was some sort of farm worker. Out of their 23 member immediate family, 8 males were killed without trial, 4 women killed without trial. 5 escaped Cambodia for the U.S and 6 were never heard from again. When her parents got here they were in such poverty that they were forced to give her up for adoption, her father died from a sickness he picked up on the journey.

This is a common story with Cambodians from that era. Fuck Pol Pot and don't ever try to downplay his crimes in my presence.
Thank you for the information, Urban Rubble. Your information seems far more valid than LuZhiming's claims on the subject. I did a bit of looking into the subject, curious about it, and found nothing but terrible deeds and... evilness on Pol Pot's part. He was a terrible man, a terrible leader and no sort of Communist whatsoever. It seems so unfair that this man, who killed so many so unfairly, was allowed to die under house arrest of a "heart condition."
Even without the experience and the stories that Urban Rubble has been witness to, I can safely say that anyone who supports Pol Pot, especially anyone who trys to paint a picture of his as some glorious Communist revoltionary, is full of shit.

http://www.gypsyjournal.com/Member/ID319/images/376_skulls.jpg
Just a small portion of the nearly 2 million Cambodians killed by Pol Pot.

[bubbrubb]

it doesnt matter if he killed 2 million or 100 thousand killing people just becasue they have a good job is insane pol pot was insane someone should have just shot the guy didnt anyone tell him he was insane

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 14 2004, 08:49 PM
That is a bunch of shit. Pure 100% bullshit.

Pol Pot's crimes were not exagerated. He ordered the killings of milllions based on what jobs they had. You've heard people say that the Khmer Rouge bandits looked at people's hands and killed them based on how worn they were ? Sounds far fetched right ? Well it actually happened, alot. My girlfriend's grandfather was beheaded with a sword after they looked at his hands. They asked him what his job was an he replied that he was a teacher, slice, head gone, rolling on the floor. My girlfriend's mother sat there and watched it happen. She was spared because she was some sort of farm worker. Out of their 23 member immediate family, 8 males were killed without trial, 4 women killed without trial. 5 escaped Cambodia for the U.S and 6 were never heard from again. When her parents got here they were in such poverty that they were forced to give her up for adoption, her father died from a sickness he picked up on the journey.

This is a common story with Cambodians from that era. Fuck Pol Pot and don't ever try to downplay his crimes in my presence.
Great, so basically all you are proving that Pol Pot was a brutal murderer that ruthlessly killed many people..... Duh!

That's not the point. I'm not denying that Pol Pot killed at least hundreds of thousands of people. But the U.S. bombing undoubtedly killed a lot of people as well. For just a small sample, an international relief official in Phnom Penh in 1973 stated in the Boston Globe that no fewer than 3,000 civillians had been killed in three weeks. And the reports get worse. The U.S. bombing almost always, specifically targeted highly populated areas. There were no Vietnamese of course. When you take that and add it to the massive starvation in Cambodia (Which was largely a direct result of the U.S. bombing, the failure of Lol Nol, and the U.S. overthrow of Prince Sihanouk.), it is hard to credit Pol Pot with the amount of casualties he was credited for.

[Urban Rubble]

That's not the point. I'm not denying that Pol Pot killed at least hundreds of thousands of people. But the U.S. bombing undoubtedly killed a lot of people as well. For just a small sample, an international relief official in Phnom Penh in 1973 stated in the Boston Globe that no fewer than 3,000 civillians had been killed in three weeks. And the reports get worse. The U.S. bombing almost always, specifically targeted highly populated areas. There were no Vietnamese of course. When you take that and add it to the massive starvation in Cambodia (Which was largely a direct result of the U.S. bombing, the failure of Lol Nol, and the U.S. overthrow of Prince Sihanouk.), it is hard to credit Pol Pot with the amount of casualties he was credited for.

The U.S bombing did kill quite a few people, that is true, but to say it made a difference on Pol Pot's death toll is innacurate. They didn't even kill 100,000 with those bombings, and yes, some of those targets were VC troops, though not all of them.

The starving in Cambodia had virtually nothing to do with these bombings either.

The U.S's bombing runs did help pave the way for Pol Pot's rise to power, but they had no effect on his death tolls. He was responsible for them, not the U.S. Carpet bombing civilian targets was very wrong, but those bombings simply do not make an impact on the death tolls.

[LuZhiming]

The U.S bombing did kill quite a few people, that is true, but to say it made a difference on Pol Pot's death toll is innacurate. They didn't even kill 100,000 with those bombings,

To say that those bombings didn't even kill 100,000 people is a massive assumption. There has never actually been a decent investigation on the amount of deaths due to the U.S. bombings. Much less, the amount of deaths caused by the bombings. The issue was hardly even raised until 20+ years later, when information on the atrocities and casualties was not as accessible. If you look at the amount of bombs dropped on that country, it is not unreasonable to question the casualties of it and Pol Pot as well.


and yes, some of those targets were VC troops, though not all of them.

That's what the U.S. claimed, but there is little reason to take it seriously. Most familiar reporters that studied the area when the U.S. announced it would bomb it, claimed there weren't any Vietnamese operating in the Ho Chi Minh trail or anywhere else in Cambodia at that time. See if you can find some work on the subject by Henry Kamm and Malcolm Browne of the New York Times if you're looking for examples. And there were numerous reports that the U.S. was bombing no one besides peasents. The Sihanouk government claimed similar occurances.


The starving in Cambodia had virtually nothing to do with these bombings either.

I don't think that's true. The bombing killed quite a lot of farmers, and obviously it destroyed much of Cambodia's land. It also destabilized the country, which no doubt worsened conditions.


The U.S's bombing runs did help pave the way for Pol Pot's rise to power,

No doubt.


but they had no effect on his death tolls.

The figures for Pol Pot's victims are taken directly from the amount of people who died of excess deaths in Cambodia. And all of those deaths are blamed on Pol Pot. It is simply absurd to say all of those deaths were to credit for Pol Pot. Even today, with relief workers in Cambodia, people still die from unexploded bombs in Cambodia, there certainly were significant amounts of deaths from these bombs at a time when there were more of them and virtually no relief workers trying to remove these bombs. And starvation without a doubt resulted in the deaths of untold amounts. Pol Pot killed a lot of people, but certainly not anywhere near two million. The U.S. dropped about 550,000 tons bombs on Cambodia, which is about twenty-five times the explosive force of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima.

[praxis1966]

Ok, Lu. Fine. Let's assume for the sake of argument you're right and the American bombing raids account for a fourth of that death toll. The fact remains that Pol Pot and the Kamir Rouge were still responsible for the deaths of 1.5 million innocent civilians. The guy was a mass murder, and no amount of arguing by you or anyone else is going to change that. So just can it with your sensless argument already.

[bubbrubb]

no matter how much you say the u.s. had to do witht he death toll the fact is pol pot was respnsible for most of the killings and i dont think anyone can deny that pol pot was a very sick man :angry:

[Urban Rubble]

Amazing. No matter what sick fuck is committing the attrocities, people like LuZhming will always find a way to blame the U.S for it. Yes, there were Cambodians killed by U.S bombers, but you are just grasping at straws to say that those had an effect on the 2 million Pol Pot reportedly killed.

Some people just can't accept that there are other evil forces at work in the world besides the U.S

Next he's going to claim that Hitler didn't really kill 10 million because when the allies liberated the camps they accidentally shot a few Jews.


To say that those bombings didn't even kill 100,000 people is a massive assumption.

Actually, if you look at graphs of where the bombs hit, and where there were populated villages, you'd see that most of those carpet bombings were done over unpopulated jungles. The ones that hit villages hit densly populated villages, and many were killed, but the vast majority of those bombs landed in jungle.


There has never actually been a decent investigation on the amount of deaths due to the U.S. bombings.

Yes, there has been. You are wrong.


If you look at the amount of bombs dropped on that country, it is not unreasonable to question the casualties of it and Pol Pot as well.

It is only unreasonable if you have never studied where the bombs landed. If you have not then yes, it is very reasonable to say the U.S was responsible for a viable amount of Pol Pot's muders.


I don't think that's true. The bombing killed quite a lot of farmers, and obviously it destroyed much of Cambodia's land. It also destabilized the country, which no doubt worsened conditions.

Again, have you ever looked at where those bombs landed ? It was quite a small area of Cambodia. These bombings had no major effect on the country's food supply.


It is simply absurd to say all of those deaths were to credit for Pol Pot.

I agree. It would be wrong to say ALL, I will just say MOST.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 06:26 AM
Ok, Lu. Fine. Let's assume for the sake of argument you're right and the American bombing raids account for a fourth of that death toll. The fact remains that Pol Pot and the Kamir Rouge were still responsible for the deaths of 1.5 million innocent civilians. The guy was a mass murder, and no amount of arguing by you or anyone else is going to change that. So just can it with your sensless argument already.
Please, be rational and read. I am not defending Pol Pot. He is a murderer of at least hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions. Pol Pot was a ruthless terrorist and dictator.


Amazing. No matter what sick fuck is committing the attrocities, people like LuZhming will always find a way to blame the U.S for it. Yes, there were Cambodians killed by U.S bombers, but you are just grasping at straws to say that those had an effect on the 2 million Pol Pot reportedly killed.

Grasping at straws? That figure actually came from a part in the book Cambodia: Year Zero where the author stated that Pol Pot officials bragged about killing two million people. That part was later shown to be completely fraudulent, but the figure remained. No one actually studied it, no one cared about the figure. Reporters never interviewed the Cambodian refugees. They never asked about the bombings of Cambodia. All one heard about from all of the New York Times reporters was that Pol Pot murdered people. The Finnish governments estimates after they put out a study on the matter are ignored. Michael Vickerey's estimes are ignored. David Chandler's figures are ignored. Just that fraudulent book is trusted.


Some people just can't accept that there are other evil forces at work in the world besides the U.S.

Some people just can't use their heads and overcomes biasnesses.


Actually, if you look at graphs of where the bombs hit, and where there were populated villages, you'd see that most of those carpet bombings were done over unpopulated jungles. The ones that hit villages hit densly populated villages, and many were killed, but the vast majority of those bombs landed in jungle.

No, the vast majority of the bombs landed in Cambodian agricultural areas. Why is it such a surprise that tons of Cambodians died because of the U.S. bombings and Lon Nol? The beginning of the secret bombing of Cambodia may not have killed too many, but the U.S. invasion that followed was extremely indiscriminate, and was only rivaled by the massive bombing that occured afterwards. Lon Nol was also quite repressive himself. No one ever counts the amount of people executed by him. Or the amount of people killed from South Vietnamese incursions or even those sucide missions Lon Nol was forcing people to do. The majority of the U.S. bombings were in farming areas around the Mekong River. More than 40% of Cambodia's farmland was turned into wasteland.


It is only unreasonable if you have never studied where the bombs landed. If you have not then yes, it is very reasonable to say the U.S was responsible for a viable amount of Pol Pot's muders.

The regions surrounding the Mekong River that were bombed were heavily populated. Cambodia didn't have a high urban population at that time.


Again, have you ever looked at where those bombs landed ? It was quite a small area of Cambodia. These bombings had no major effect on the country's food supply.

What? They destroyed about 40% of farming land and created more than 700,000 refugees. That completely destabalized the country, and is what created that starvation.


I agree. It would be wrong to say ALL, I will just say MOST.

That much may be true.

[Saint-Just]

Ymir said to me that the Khymer Rouge saw cities as western organisms and that the only true Cambodians were the ones that lives from the land in the country side. So they killed anyone who did not fit their idea of a true Cambodian.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Pol Pot was insane. He was a mass murderer. I don't remember hearing someone supporting him ever. In fact I doubt he ever had supporters. The U$ killed a lot of people too.

[Yazman]

Next he's going to claim that Hitler didn't really kill 10 million because when the allies liberated the camps they accidentally shot a few Jews.

Actually, Hitler DIDN'T kill 10 million.

The commonly accepted figure is 6 million, not 10 million.

[LSD]

Actually, Hitler DIDN'T kill 10 million.

The commonly accepted figure is 6 million, not 10 million.

He meant civilians in total.

The commonly accepted figure for Jewish civilians is about 5.8 million, but including Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs, and the disabled, it's closer to 10 million.

[LuZhiming]

Originally posted by El Infiltr(A)[email protected] 22 2004, 06:30 AM
Pol Pot was insane. He was a mass murderer. I don't remember hearing someone supporting him ever. In fact I doubt he ever had supporters. The U$ killed a lot of people too.

Pol Pot enjoyed support from the greatest superpowers. He was supported by the Soviet Union and China during his rise to power and his rule. He was supported by the U.S., Singapore, China, Britain, and Thailand after he was overthrown. Basically, the only people who had the balls to stand up against Pol Pot were the Vietnamese, and they paid for it.

[zapata's_ghost]

i'm not positive on this but i heard that khmer rouge groups still occupy outer parts of cambodia where diamond mines are found. they are able to this by the help of the us government who provided them the land. the reason being that america can now import cheap diamonds by the tonne load for an extremely cheap price... oh yeah, and listen to 'Holiday in Cambodia' by the dead kennedys, it wont tell you that much but its a great song

[setumismo]

an interesting book on this topic is called "First they Killed my Father" by Loung Ung.

its a cambodian girl's account of what happened, starting from right before the pol pot regime and then up until she is able to flee. it will give you a lot of insight about what happened; it moved me to tears...

some reviews (http://www.history-asia.com/First_They_Killed_My_Father__A_Daughter_of_Cambodi a_Remembers_0060931388.html)

[Comrade Zeke]

Did you know the North Vatiamaness tried to free the Cambodians from Po Pot's dictatorship???? They freed like the western half of the courty.....Communism vs.the Fascism as I see it in the case of Vietnam and Cambodia. And to note on the U.S bombing who the fuck cares people bomb in wars shit happens and the Bombs didn't kill that many Cambodians.....it was the Khemer Rougue and Po Plot was that killed over 13 million I beilive.........so sad..what if Pol Pot was alive today??? I don't even want to think about the bastard :angry:
But it is preety mcu over and Cambodia is becoming a Democrcy.
sorry about spelling.

[Urban Rubble]

it was the Khemer Rougue and Po Plot was that killed over 13 million

:lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm not sure, but I think that's more than the population of Cambodia at the time. Pol Pot killed around 2 million.

[Comrade Zeke]

My mistake

[Kurai Tsuki]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 11:27 PM
While studying in Paris he accepted the communist ideology from 1949 -52.In 1967, the Khmer rouge took up arms against the governemnt of Cambodia.POl pot was a part of this group. They didn't win until 1975. Pol Pot led Cambodia from 1975-79 during which he killed 2 million citizens in his agressive agrarian land refroms but was later ousted on a border dispute. He went into hiding and a guerilla war began. At one point they had amost 10,000 men, but most revolted over elections. He also ordered the killing of his wife and nine kids.In June 1997, one of his generals known as "the butcher" captured him and sentenced him to life improsonment with the Khmer Rouge and he later died of a heart attack in 1998.

I basically just summed up this article http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9804/16/p...line/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/asiapcf/9804/16/pol.pot.timeline/index.html)
Its a sad day for the movement when leftists site CNN.

[Kurai Tsuki]

Pol Pot and the Khamer Rouge were overthrown by the Vietnamese government after he tried to attack Vietnam. The United States was upset at this being a Vietnamese victory, so they actually began to fund the Khamer Rouge so that they might be able to return to power, but that the power never rose to that level again.

[leftist manson]

hey guys
you wanted to know who supports that so-called bastard
you people must have known that there has never been a leader in the whole left's rise who has not been bastardised by the capitalist media.
lenin,stalin,maozedong,fidel castro, che guevera, ho shi minh
everybodyu
now mao is also held responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands,
stalin too.
castro too.
guevera wasn't held responsible coz he never achieved that so- called dictatorship position that the western media suddenly gives any communist who comes to power.
pol pot is now villified coz he wasn't supported by not only western powers but soviet union itself helped to get khmer rouge out
as it wasn't going to be a shitty soviet satellite
and for the western capitalists
those bastards couldn't send their expensive goods to be sold in cambodia
just feel that
whenever the statusquo is toppled and revolution succeeds ,people are killed . those bourgeoise who don't let go of their shitty materialist havens are killed.
then pol's strategy of massive agrarian uplift killed people.
no denying that guys.
butttttttttttt
not as much as newsweek or cnn would have u believe
and by the way china has become the fastest growing economy by more or less the same agrarian policies but pol the bastard couldn't get enough time to make his policies a success.
the vietnamese(satellite of the soviets) already had him out.
you can call me mad but guys i never watch cnn.
i try to make my own views throuh reading not only newswwk and Times but other literature too.
as for the guys who supported pol, sit in a time machine, go to any thirdworld street and you'll find hundreds of thousands of not only laymen but intellectuals who cosidered pol to be the guy who had stood upto western and soviet imperialism and succeeded
and you can kill me for speaking the truth

[revoevo]

Don't try and deny that Pol Pot was a sick man who killed millons of innocents. And especially do not try and justify his killings. Horrors like that cannot be justified, it does not matter what ideology he said he supported. Its ignorant to believe that every time a dictator who calls himself a communist commits genocide it has simply been blown out of proportion by capitalist media.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 29 2004, 03:56 AM
Don't try and deny that Pol Pot was a sick man who killed millons of innocents. And especially do not try and justify his killings. Horrors like that cannot be justified, it does not matter what ideology he said he supported. Its ignorant to believe that every time a dictator who calls himself a communist commits genocide it has simply been blown out of proportion by capitalist media.
That is true, however it is not ignorant to question the capitalist media. One must neither always believe without questioning it or always refuse what is said by it without questioning it.

The capitalist media does not always tell the entire truth about Cambodia, don't mention how many the U.S. killed in Camodia. Pol Pot was as sick as U.S. President Nixon and his party.

[elijahcraig]

The U.S bombing did kill quite a few people, that is true, but to say it made a difference on Pol Pot's death toll is innacurate. They didn't even kill 100,000 with those bombings, and yes, some of those targets were VC troops, though not all of them.

That is false. The US bombings before Pol Pot came to power are estimated to have killed near 600,000 people, with millions dying in the stone age the bombings reduced Cambodia to.

The US then proceeded to support Pol Pot as he came to power. This caused hundreds of thousands of more deaths. To accuse Pol Pot of killing all these people is absurd. He merely helped the US war train along, and then accepted the reigns of power. Very genocidally I might add.

The US was also engaged in genocide in East Timor at the same time. At which time they played up “Communist” atrocities and silenced any mention of the Timor genocide.

Typical.


The starving in Cambodia had virtually nothing to do with these bombings either.

That’s wrong as well.


Amazing. No matter what sick fuck is committing the attrocities, people like LuZhming will always find a way to blame the U.S for it. Yes, there were Cambodians killed by U.S bombers, but you are just grasping at straws to say that those had an effect on the 2 million Pol Pot reportedly killed.


The US IS to blame in this case. You don’t bomb a country back to the stone age and then expect a “gentle land,” as it was called before Pol Pot came to power by the US press, to come out of it.

Have you ever read any Chomsky on this? He documents it heavily.

Not to say Pol Pot isn’t responsible. He is just as responsible as the US.

It is also a fact that the Western press was claiming Pol Pot was using “genocidal policies” when he had killed maybe a few hundred people (small in relation to the US toll).


Michael Vickerey's estimes are ignored. David Chandler's figures are ignored.

Two good sources.


No, the vast majority of the bombs landed in Cambodian agricultural areas. Why is it such a surprise that tons of Cambodians died because of the U.S. bombings and Lon Nol? The beginning of the secret bombing of Cambodia may not have killed too many, but the U.S. invasion that followed was extremely indiscriminate, and was only rivaled by the massive bombing that occured afterwards. Lon Nol was also quite repressive himself. No one ever counts the amount of people executed by him. Or the amount of people killed from South Vietnamese incursions or even those sucide missions Lon Nol was forcing people to do. The majority of the U.S. bombings were in farming areas around the Mekong River. More than 40% of Cambodia's farmland was turned into wasteland.

Infrastructure and soft targets are the words they used I think.