I want to change, I want to change...

[Dhul Fiqar]

What if it didn't matter what we wanted at the end of it all? What if it didn't matter if we were Stalinists or Socialists or Democrats or Islamists or Black Supremists or total whackjobs that just wanted to take down the current shitstem we all live in?

Have any of you ever just thought to yourselves: "Fuck it, we'll work the details out later. I want change, and I want it now!" To do that, ladies and gentlemen, we need a broad alliance and we need to be willing to take up arms.

I'm talking about working with everyone from the Muslim radicals to the nationalist nutbags, a real Mötley Crew of people we might otherwise not find any common ground with. We just have to face it - each of us is far to weak to affect any change on our own.

I do not envision a single Communist state, rather I envision a pluralistic earth in which there will be wide differences of oppinion. There will be Capitalist blocs, Islamic blocs, perhaps even melevolent "rogue" blocs. This is all to be expected, in fact it would just be a formalization of what we have today - without being under the yoke of American Imperialism.

So what do you think comrades, of these thoughts? Would you be prepared to put rivalries and disagreements aside to rid ourselves of our collective master, pledging only to live in peace and not to interfere outside our cultural geographical borders afterwards?

--- G.

[bubbrubb]

i suppose so people must unite for it to work and we are for the same cause so why not work together :D

[Red, Green, and Gold]

I'm for anything that brings change. This world is stagnating - Communism is crumbling, Capitalism is moving into every corner (with some help from the U$A). I hold no grudges, and I'd be glad to work with any man as devoted to change as I am.

The question is, what kind of change would it be...? I suppose that it couldn't be just -- "change." Eventually, and realistically even from the beginning, this "change" would need a political ideology, or some sort of political thoughts, to guide it.

But I'm sure we could all settle on something.

Seems like a good idea to me.

[Kez]

i only work with those of my class, who fight for a class solution, never with religious fighters, never with nationalists.

Dhul, this is one of the sillyest threads uve ever made, why should i ally with the bourgeoise (nationalists)

as for other socialists, id fight for a united front with other socialists, but not a popular front with other classes

[Fidel Castro]

I am working class, why would the bourgois want to help me take control? No, they want to keep me down, not help me rise.

What you are suggesting is highly unrealistic

[Red, Green, and Gold]

Unrealistic, of course, but it is a glourious concept.

What if members of the bourgeious were willing to help you? Not all bourgeious are terrible, money-grubbing opressors, though most are.

[CorporationsRule]

"Have any of you ever just thought to yourselves: "Fuck it, we'll work the details out later. I want change, and I want it now!""

The process of change will dictate the outcome. If you want diverse autonomous communities to form, the only way to do that is to join and support movements who's organizing principles are autonomy and decentralized power.

Indy Media collectives and the ELF are two examples of such organizations that spring to mind.

The CIW (http://www.ciw-online.org/tz_site-revision/home/home.html) is another.

That being said, if change is what you want, you're about to get your wish.

You don't have to do anything.

Mother Nature's got you covered (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=22&t=22221)

[redstar2000]

Would you be prepared to put rivalries and disagreements aside to rid ourselves of our collective master, pledging only to live in peace and not to interfere outside our cultural geographical borders afterwards?

No.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

[Saint-Just]

I have thought of this before. I think it is a good idea. I am not sure it would work, but perhaps. There is good logic behind it. I am not sure how many people would be prepared to unite. Although I think that it would not work following the overthrow of the current system. Groups would begin to fight each other.

[guerrillaradio]

Originally posted by Dhul [email protected] 12 2004, 11:46 PM
What if it didn't matter what we wanted at the end of it all? What if it didn't matter if we were Stalinists or Socialists or Democrats or Islamists or Black Supremists or total whackjobs that just wanted to take down the current shitstem we all live in?

Have any of you ever just thought to yourselves: "Fuck it, we'll work the details out later. I want change, and I want it now!" To do that, ladies and gentlemen, we need a broad alliance and we need to be willing to take up arms.

I'm talking about working with everyone from the Muslim radicals to the nationalist nutbags, a real Mötley Crew of people we might otherwise not find any common ground with. We just have to face it - each of us is far to weak to affect any change on our own.

I do not envision a single Communist state, rather I envision a pluralistic earth in which there will be wide differences of oppinion. There will be Capitalist blocs, Islamic blocs, perhaps even melevolent "rogue" blocs. This is all to be expected, in fact it would just be a formalization of what we have today - without being under the yoke of American Imperialism.

So what do you think comrades, of these thoughts? Would you be prepared to put rivalries and disagreements aside to rid ourselves of our collective master, pledging only to live in peace and not to interfere outside our cultural geographical borders afterwards?

--- G.
This is what I've believed since becoming a left-winger. We need to focus on what unites us, not what divides us.

Some of the answers in this thread are pretty indicative of the bullshit some of you talk. Quit this class malarkey Kez, it's full of shit and you know it. I want change as much as you. And the vast majority of nationalists are...working class. Ever been to a football match son??

Jesus Christ I despair sometimes.

[acg4_9]

commrade dhul fiqar i am 100% with you in this idea and we can see that clearly in palestine and in some parts of iraq where hundreds of fighters unite just for one reason: FREEDOM.
this idea isn't new i've heard it from a lot of university students in the middle east and there are some small movements in the middle east that carry this idea the're not powerful yet but they may be in the future.

God bless our freedom fighters
Viva Palestine, Viva Iraq

[Iepilei]

I would fight alongside a Stalinist in order to destroy the throws of capitalism, any day. I believe us in the left-red community spend too much time bickering even amongst ourselves. We don't realise that the diversity of our beliefs is what makes us unique. We have the moralists, the industrialists, the greens... all these different sects who share one thing in common: their utter comtempt for bourgeoise politics.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

The only struggle that will bring peace is the struggle that will put an end to political cnflict, and that is the one that will put an end to oppression and class society.

The only struggle that can bring freedom is one to bring the working class to power.

Many struggles against today's system are of a nature that seek to put elites into power. Whether they are racist, nationalist, sexist, or classist, none will put an end to oppression.

[shyguywannadie]

I think Dhul is onto something here, the longer we take in not changing the current system the worse things are going to get, its time to forcibly remove the current system A.S.A.P. then after that we can sort out who wants to do what etc etc

So, there are some here who are agreeing with Dhul, so where do we go from here?

Should we all meet up somewhere?

[mia wallace]

Would you be prepared to put rivalries and disagreements aside to rid ourselves of our collective master, pledging only to live in peace and not to interfere outside our cultural geographical borders afterwards?
i would... i really think we should give it a try. i've thought bout this and it sounds like a quite good idea.


What if members of the bourgeious were willing to help you? Not all bourgeious are terrible, money-grubbing opressors, though most are.
i believe there are there's a lot of bourgeious who'd help. i know few myself. that are people with money, but who believe in some ideas and would follow them even if it means they wouldn't be rich any more. :cool:

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Well, when you have a broad coalition of people to try and overthrow something, it will be pretty hard to decide on what to replace it with. It is a good idea, unfortuanately there needs to be a creatin rallying point, something more then we just don't like the U$. The majority need to come to some sort of consensus on what they want, be it communism, religious fundamentalism, or nationalism. Once the people come to that consensus, it will be up to the individual factions on weather to endorse them or not and allow them to succeed. For example, would you be anxious to help Islamic Jihadists in Iraq or back the occupation forces?

[guerrillaradio]

I dunno if any of you have read Naomi Klein's Fences and Windows, but she makes the very valid point that the most successful movements have not stuck around and debated details, but just been united by a knowledge that a certain thing was wrong. She was saying in this in reference to the anti-globalisation movement (remember that??) and I kinda agree. The Zapatista movement also believes that their role is not to take over Mexico, or even Chiapas, but merely to create an even ground where people are able to choose what they want.

I think the left would do well to pull in the same direction.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

But we do want to take over Mexico, we want to take over all of the world.
We do not only want to find common ground.
That is called reformism and I hope that's not what your movement is about, because that's certainly not what mine is about!

[Zanzibar]

I have no problem working with Trotskiets.
I have no problem working with Anarcho-Syndicalists.
I have no problem working with Democratic Socialists.
I have no problem working with any progressive force.

In the end we all want to work toward a similar goal.

I will never work with any islamic fundementalist though! The enemy of an enemy does not make a friend. I wouldn't not support any religious struggle. Nor the beliefs they wish to proliferate. I will not work with draconian, un-proggressive elements!



Islam is no more a friend of socialism then christianity.

[Fidel Castro]

I still say that, whilst this is a very romantic idea, it is also unrealistic. Quite simply the bourgois do not want the world to change, they are happy because they are wealthy and in control.

It is the working class who hold the key to revolution and will ultimately bring an end to the capitalism that currently enslaves them. The road to change is not through nationalism, religion or race. It is through class struggle.

[Stapler]

Bring out the wackjobs! and those right-wing assholes who want change too. By allowing people of any anti-government sentiment to "help" with a revolution, you are just setting the stage for a mnstrous power struggle. We need one unified force, almost the same in ideology, and willing to fight for that change. One needs firm leadership over his party if he is to avoit assasination, or power struggles with those of contrary ideology.

[dark fairy]

ok here's my take on this first evanesence {or how ever the fuck it's spelled sucks...band wise} second it would be really great on good and all that good shit if everyone didi find commond ground {not to be a eutopieanist} but it would but we are human beings and as human beings we will always want more than what we have power currupts money corrupts and we're human... not everyone thinks like us and if they do, and if this were to ever go down and someone tell them if they want more i know they'll take it i mean COMMON ground to me should end up with equal rights and the working class working for the working class and damn im just going to stop because this is long but it should be the people working for the people not for a system that doesn't deserve to called a system!... man i can't spell! :unsure:

[dark fairy]

but i forgot to say that a revolution would just be great and oh man it would be like a dream come true and yeah we'll tie the nots at the end or however you want to put it but yeah im up for a revolution and count me in and the other post along with this is just how i feel i advise everyone and anyone that reads this not to take it up the ass and yeah you get the point :)

[mentalbunny]

I think I'm more with Kez and Zanzibar on this one, as far as effecting change goes. I'm happy for there to be "blocks" of people with differing ideas, but I can't see myself working with them particularly closely. Maybe once in a while, but I'd find it hard to trust a nationalist or a funamdentalist. And there's also the point about hwo willing they'd be to work with us.

[guerrillaradio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 01:22 AM
But we do want to take over Mexico, we want to take over all of the world.
We do not only want to find common ground.
That is called reformism and I hope that's not what your movement is about, because that's certainly not what mine is about!
I said nothing about "common ground" or reformism. Read the fucking thread you moron. Christ.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I did read the whole thread.
I must have missread your post.
My bad.

[Guest1]

Dhul, I know what you mean, and to a limited extent, we will find a broad coalition to bring about change. Furthermore, our other enemies will help us without us having to sell our souls to them. How? They will create division amongst the forces of racism and class-tyranny.

I see no reason for us to work with Nationalists, cultists or anyone of the sort.

They are clearly on the other side of the line, and there is no need for us to join them to gain from their constant shit-disturbing.

[SittingBull47]

You're idea of unity is admirable, but impossible. For example, those arab terrorists/jihad guys go against everything a socialist should stand for, and other groups blatantly practice inequality. It would never work, and even if such a group would rise it would just as easily fall due to too many differences and opposing viewpoints. Peace should be our weapon.

[Mr. Morrison]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 10:28 PM

So, there are some here who are agreeing with Dhul, so where do we go from here?

Should we all meet up somewhere?
I think we should.

I got in touch with Dhul (it took a while, though, but he's still checking his mail now and then) and maybe, just maybe, we might be able to work out some kind of small "revolutionary" forum that would serve two purposes:

1. Bringing together different ideologies and hammering out some sort of compromise for action

2. Planning and committing to action

Those of you who broadly agree with the above agenda might want to PM me, or just check this thread soon for details. I encourage anyone that "joins" to keep posting here, it is a truly excellent site and I myself just recently started posting (although I have been reading longer). It just doesn't have the full spectrum of people needed to enact a popular revolution/guerilla campaign.

[Mr. Morrison]

Oh, and perhaps a mod could move this to Opposing Ideologies?

[BOZG]

Disillussionment can just as easily turn right as it can left.

[Mr. Morrison]

Exactly, that's why we need to engage and harness the disillusioned masses! Surely by being involved, we stand the best chance of showing them a good example - the right way - and thus securing enduring support for socialism after the war?

Remember how socialism initially took hold in China (I admit it did not last in their particular case, but that's a seperate issue) - the Communists gained legitimacy among the people only AFTER the defeated the enemy Japanese! After their performance, and after the population got to know the true spirit of the Communist forces and what they gave up for the cause - the people RALLIED to their cause. Victory came swiftly, it took only four years to take the entirety of China and secure it as a continuous country - no small feat. One beyond even my wildest dreams.

No, what we need are small victories - to convince people that a different way is possible. That it IS possible to stand up to Western capitalist hegemony - that you CAN win battles. Once the first battle is one, the war will look a lot more promising - and the victors will get the credit.

If leftists are the ones that organize such a coalition of those "Unwilling to Take Any More Shit" - they will automatically gain influence and credit in any future world order.

And as Dhul said, some people just don't want to live under Socialism - let them form their Islamic and Capitalist states. The only thing that has to be guaranteed is total freedom of movement from one ideological area to another. If you want to stop living under Islamic law, you move. If you want to stop living under Capitalism, you move. If you want to give our growing Socialist paradise a shot - move to out stronghold ;)

One can dream, right?

[Lefty]

While that's a great concept, I don't think it would work. There are simply too many hateful people a la Redstar2000 that are not willing to see past differences in order to work together. In fact, I think that a lot of people, myself included, would find it very hard to work with various groups that would also be interested in bringing about a change (i.e. far right-wing paramilitary groups, rascists and such) However, just because I don't believe that a utopia can be achieved doesn't mean that I won't try to work toward it. It's obvious that it couldn't and wouldn't work, but working towards it couldn't hurt, right?

[BOZG]

What I meant was that just as the disillusioned masses can turn left, the disillusioned left can turn to the right, like Dhul. This is CLASS war not a popular front. It's a ridiculous bourgeois idea.




Muslim radicals
Not a chance. There are issues where we can form "alliances" but when it comes down to it, religion is a regressive force, I do not make my bed with religious forces.



nationalist nutbags
I agree that many nationalists are working class but that does not mean we should then look over the idea of nationalism. I respect the right to self-determination and national aspirations of people to some extent but all it can ever acheive is a home-grown bourgeoisie. Anyone who can understand the necessity of socialism and how it works should reject nationalism. Borders do not define who we are.



There will be Capitalist blocs, Islamic blocs, perhaps even melevolent "rogue" blocs.

Never. So we should have a policy of "peaceful coexistance". We should allow capitalist exploitation in some places but not another. We should allow religion to control people in some places too. Sickening right wing ideas.

[Lefty]

Well, if the other areas, or "blocs," are more successful, people will come to them on their own, right? Survival of the fittest. If people prefer one system instead of another they will choose that one. I kind of like the idea. That way, we could see which system is truly best for the people, and if neither is adequate, people will make one that is. Of course, this is all theoretical, because nothing like this will ever happen. It's nice to dream, though.

[Rasta Sapian]

hello, anybody home? :huh:
lets face it, the masses are asleep! and its up to us to wake them up, around the world!

Maybe we could network with humanitarian causes, helping to provide the 3rd world with education and hospitals.

We need to establish communes across the world, which can exist in capitalist societies but at the same time working under socialist methods, standing up as a positive example and alternative to the mainstream consumeristic world. New political movements must be organized!

I have said this before, we need to write a new manifesto, "universalist manifesto" spreading socialist ideals ie. marx, engles, mao, etc. this will revise ideology to awaken and take down capitalist and corperate globalization, and supress impirialism for good!

If you have good ideas for a topic that could be utilized in the manifesto write it down, refine it!
Together we can make a difference, with grass roots iniciatives and plans like this that are thinking about everyone as a whole, and not dissegrigated class hungrey individuals! :o

peace love and unity yall

[Mr. Morrison]

Originally posted by [email protected] 20 2004, 09:03 AM
Well, if the other areas, or "blocs," are more successful, people will come to them on their own, right? Survival of the fittest. If people prefer one system instead of another they will choose that one. I kind of like the idea. That way, we could see which system is truly best for the people, and if neither is adequate, people will make one that is.
Exactly

:)

[Hate Is Art]

I have priniciples, they involve not working with right wingers, racists and natlionists and religious fanatics.

The revolution is better of without them, what we need in unity on the left. Let the left remove the right from power and then we can put in a new system, without any kind of right wing input.

[socialistfuture]

We need change. Change is always happening, it is a part of life. I think a united front is definatly a possibility. Many Anarchists have very similiar idead to Socialists. There are so many people around the world opposed to the war on Iraq. The world anti-capitalist is being used by many. Greenpeace stood against the war. Where I live, sum of the Greens party were against it as was another political party The Alliance ( a left wing socialist party). There are many socialist/communist groups here ( in New Zealand). Socialist worker is always at anti war marches. Many different people march side by side... punks, socialists, old, young, etc.
Many people are questioning the system, and modern life. I think an alliance is workable. As a socialist I think certain princibles cannot be abandoned ..being..

anti racist anti imperialist anti capitalist (living in a capitalist world... i think we need to talk about it more) caring for the earth and each other regardless of gender or race

America's hold needs to be broken and not replaced by a new super power. people around the world are unhappy about capitalism. we need to define what change is needed. Some people try to work on enviromental issues from a neither left nor right perspective ( some green parties do ass well). As left wing thinkers we have a set of beliefs that are important to us. Marx said that socialism was needed... action was needed and the details would come later.

We need to unite on common causes and achieve peace eventually and suistainability. I think Lefties should work with groups like greenpeace, amnesty international etc and make the links left wing ideas.

i cannot see how thw world could be only left wing - a world wide communist system. would all right wing thinker have to be killed? and other who werent left destroyed too? i think we have learned much from past socialist governments - we must be grassroots. democratic in actions and systems.
maybe we will end out with ''blocs'' we must engage the right and inbetween. endless war is no way to achieve anything.

if we put in a new system how long would it last? we need to show people what socialism today means... and not have an authoritarian system. who wants to destroy capitalism to be enslaved