Who Killed Trotsky?

[ernestolynch]

Serious question and that - who did kill Lev? Who put a pick through Colonel Sanders' nut way back in Me-hi-co?

I'd like to think it was an agent for the USSR offing him for his heinous crimes of grassing up Mexican CP members to the FBI, but I am obviously aware that this is the version commonly spouted by western propagands and their hirelings in sixth-forms and FE colleges across western Europe.

Was he offed by a Trot - who got sick of Leon's egoism and vanity? Nowt like an ex-Trot to hate a Trot. Ask rednblack...

Maybe Frida Kahlo's hubbie had 'Trot' knocked off because he took his sloganeering a tad too far with her. Small wonder she became a Stalinist soon after.

Did one of his former clients from New York do him in, in a fit of lustful pique and wanton desire for the days when Trotsky turned tricks on the Brooklyn streets to fund his opiate habit? Perhaps he made enemies during his time as a two-bit street hustler?

Or - was his murder arranged by the man himself in the ultimate Macchiavellian act - thinking of immortality in western European cults and posthumous booksales to social workers and FE lecturers for ever more....I'll say this - I wouldn't put it past him, he was a weasel!

Or did he fake his own death?

[monkeydust]

I'm not an expert on this event. But as far as I know, from objective sources it was actually an agent sent by Stalin who was sent to kill Trotsky.

I can't however, prove this, it would be difficult to do so.

As for your final suggestion, I doubt Trostsky faked his own death, I'm pretty sure he actually lived for a while after being hit over the head with an ice pick, and that it was his belief that Stalin planned the action.

[ernestolynch]

Yeah but he would say that wouldn't he? Its not like he was a trustworthy bloke.

Would you buy a used car off a bloke who looks like that? :trotski:

[monkeydust]

In any case. Who else would order for someone to be killed, with an ice pick? It doesn't strike me as something for the American authorities to do.

Despite this, I may be wrong, we'll see if anyone else is more knowledgable than I about Trotsky's death.

[Felicia]

Um, dude, Stalin had him killed. He was killing off his competition.

[ernestolynch]

How was he competition? How many voted Trot in 1927?

[Red, Green, and Gold]

He was major competition. He was Stalin's only real rival! Do you think that anyone in their right minds would have shown support for Trotsky under Stalin's regime?! Anyone who openly supported Trotsky under Stalin would have been in serious trouble, to say the least.

It is historical fact that an agent sent by Stalin put that ice pick through Trotsky's head.

[Pete]

List the options and I'll make your poll for you.

[Felicia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 07:42 PM
He was major competition. He was Stalin's only real rival! Do you think that anyone in their right minds would have shown support for Trotsky under Stalin's regime?! Anyone who openly supported Trotsky under Stalin would have been in serious trouble, to say the least.

It is historical fact that an agent sent by Stalin put that ice pick through Trotsky's head.
yeppers, enyone that will have popularity with the people is a potential threat to power.

[Nobody]

Originally posted by Felicia+Feb 13 2004, 01:01 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Felicia @ Feb 13 2004, 01:01 AM)
[email protected] 12 2004, 07:42 PM
He was major competition. He was Stalin&#39;s only real rival&#33; Do you think that anyone in their right minds would have shown support for Trotsky under Stalin&#39;s regime?&#33; Anyone who openly supported Trotsky under Stalin would have been in serious trouble, to say the least.

It is historical fact that an agent sent by Stalin put that ice pick through Trotsky&#39;s head.
yeppers, enyone that will have popularity with the people is a potential threat to power. [/b]
I believed Trotsky was not terribly popular in the USSR, his main body of support was Western Europe and North America.

I think it was a crazed Stalinist, from Spain I believe, that thought he was doing his idol a big favour. What a way to hero worship.


Would you buy a used car off a bloke who looks like that?

Do you not trust Jews? Racist&#33; (Irony)

[Osman Ghazi]

May I ask why you have such a low opinion of Trotsky?
He was one of the brightest and most idealistic leftists in all the history of the left.
Personnally I agree with most of his theories. They were the types of policies that should have been implemented.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

yeppers, enyone that will have popularity with the people is a potential threat to power.


Thats just nonsense.Everyone knows that Stalin had true popularity.

Anyway,I concur with Nobody on the issue

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 04:23 PM
Um, dude, Stalin had him killed. He was killing off his competition.
Don&#39;t mean to question your knowlege, but Stalin exiled Trotsky to Mexico. Who killed him while he was there was not and is not commonly know. Obviously Stalin didn&#39;t go to Mexico and have a purge against his competion.
Most can vaguely agree that it was Stalin&#39;s secret agents or perhaps the CIA.

[Saint-Just]

I have no idea. However, why would Stalin want him dead in that year? wouldn&#39;t it have been better to do it at a less busy time, not during the second world war. Why not 1927 and every year after. Trotskyists would like to think their hero was killed by their evil villian.

[Osman Ghazi]

Actually, I consider myslef to be a Trotskyist and I don&#39;t give a good god damn about Trotsky or whether he was killed by Stalin or not.

Personality cults are bad, remember?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Well if Stlin really had total control and was an evil mastermind like many of you people claim he was,then why didn&#39;t he have Trotsky killed right away?Clearly,there are large contradictions in your thinking.

[peaccenicked]

hmmm..try here http://www.ehistory.com/world/amit/display...fm?amit_id=1292 (http://www.ehistory.com/world/amit/display.cfm?amit_id=1292)

[shintso]

&#39;real competition&#39; or not, trotsky was in fact the only opposing force for stalin. remember, after lenin&#39;s death it was trotsky who was supposed to replace him, he was the leader of the red army after all. but trotsky got light headed with his revolutionary theories that stalin had a chance to take charge.
anyone here who&#39;s read stalin&#39;s autobiography knows what kind of person he was. fearful paranoid power-crazed leader, who always thought trotsky was out to kill him, so he decided to kill him first. in a very cool way i must add...

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

Stalin killed lots of people, regardless of weather or not they were actually threats or not.

[shintso]

read a little more about the kind of person he was. anyone he killed threatend him(by his standards)

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 10:43 PM
How was he competition? How many voted Trot in 1927?
I was watching a doco the other day and it said that 280 something of the ballots were absent, plus 2 vote officially were against Stalin, so who won the election Trotsky did.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

280 something votes would have chenged the outcome of the election? <_<

[Comrade Ceausescu]

anyone here who&#39;s read stalin&#39;s autobiography knows what kind of person he was. fearful paranoid power-crazed leader, who always thought trotsky was out to kill him, so he decided to kill him first. in a very cool way i must add...


Yeah.Because reading a fictional book about Stalin really gives a great perspective of what kind of person he was.

[Red, Green, and Gold]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 14 2004, 04:02 AM

anyone here who&#39;s read stalin&#39;s autobiography knows what kind of person he was. fearful paranoid power-crazed leader, who always thought trotsky was out to kill him, so he decided to kill him first. in a very cool way i must add...


Yeah.Because reading a fictional book about Stalin really gives a great perspective of what kind of person he was.
Fictional book?&#33; Ha. Shintso said that he read Stalin&#39;s autobiography. Calling that fictional would be pretty insulting to old Uncle Joe, don&#39;t you think? :P

[Comrade Ceausescu]

No.There was this book writen called "The AutoBiography Of Joseph Stalin".Its not really an autobiography.Its someone writing a book from what they percieve to be his point of view.As far as I know Stalin never wrote any books about his personal life.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1582430047/qid=1076732521//ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-7707464-8856125?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

[Red, Green, and Gold]

Oh, alright -- Sorry, my mistake.

Is the book very biased against Stalin...? From what you and shintso have said, it appears to be...

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Its alright man.Yeah,I think it pretty much paints him as a sadistic bastard.

[ernestolynch]

Originally posted by euripidies+Feb 14 2004, 01:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (euripidies @ Feb 14 2004, 01:20 AM)
[email protected] 12 2004, 10:43 PM
How was he competition? How many voted Trot in 1927?
I was watching a doco the other day and it said that 280 something of the ballots were absent, plus 2 vote officially were against Stalin, so who won the election Trotsky did. [/b]
Meh?

Stalin received 725,000 votes.
Trot got 6,000.

[shintso]

the autobiography itself is romured to be written by stalin. the "author" of the book is infact the person who found. he said that he talked to stalin&#39;s daughter after his death. his daughter said that stalin died whilst pointing a finger towards the roof of his office. everybody thaught that stalin had pointed a blaming finger towards them, but they later found out he was pointing toward the attic, where they found his autobiography.
that&#39;s the myth. fact or false, its pretty cool

[Monty Cantsin]

Originally posted by [email protected] 14 2004, 11:02 AM
Meh?

Stalin received 725,000 votes.
Trot got 6,000.
My mistake I was watching a “most evil men of all time” doco they made it sound like he had rigged it. Because I don’t care to much about Stalin I just took it as truth. i really think its old news and it doesnt really mater any more.

[JasonR]

There are two things i hate in the communist movement, Stalinists who totally deny Stalin&#39;s crimes (Ceausescu (a very evil man btw), Ernesto) and Trotskyists who ridiculously exagerrate them (Ozman, shinsto, HIM, Felicia)

the NKVD di dnot kill trotsky, it was a communist from i believe Spain or Cuba who disguised himself as a Trotsky servent but he was really a stalinist. if stalin would&#39;ve wanted Trtosky killed he would&#39;ve done it in the Ussr, not in Mexico. Stalin was not infact popular in the Ussr, even before Stalin was elected, trotsky was very anti-Lenin and idealist, not qualities of a leader for communism. It was the Soviet government that voted to exile Trotsky, not Stalin alone. No one in russia today likes Trotsky, his base of support like someone said is in the burgeois western countries.

to Stalin, as non-Stalinist and non-Trotskyists, we must hold objective viewpoints, not typical: "STALIN KILLED EVERYONE WHO OPPOSED HIM AND WAS HITLER 2" or "STALIN WAS A PERFECT GOD", we must believe something in the middle. I and my family personally have little complaints about Stalin, he gave my formerly peasant family a home, a television, an education, hospitals, a kitchen, food, and running water. But i agree he did many bad things like arbitrary arrests and 1 person cults. Redzeppelin seems to be the most objective poster in this thread.

[Dr. Rosenpenis]

I don&#39;t think Felicia is a Trotskyist.

[Red, Green, and Gold]

:blink:

I know that I&#39;m not a Trotskyist.

[Pedro Alonso Lopez]

Trotsky was killed by Stalin as of course the only true opposition to the beaucratic rot that had set in. I am a firm believer that had Trostsky gotten to power in the USSR things would have been so much better, not that hideous perversion of communism that Stalin put forth.

Even Lenin said it in his testament, Stalin was a power hungry egomaniac and he proved it with his damn idealising of himself. Plus his idolising of Lenin itself is a perversion of communism.

I would trust Trostsky on his words, his insight.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

the autobiography itself is romured to be written by stalin. the "author" of the book is infact the person who found. he said that he talked to stalin&#39;s daughter after his death. his daughter said that stalin died whilst pointing a finger towards the roof of his office. everybody thaught that stalin had pointed a blaming finger towards them, but they later found out he was pointing toward the attic, where they found his autobiography.
that&#39;s the myth. fact or false, its pretty cool


I am sorry but this is just not true.The author wrote this book as a fiction novel.


There are two things i hate in the communist movement, Stalinists who totally deny Stalin&#39;s crimes (Ceausescu (a very evil man btw), Ernesto) and Trotskyists who ridiculously exagerrate them (Ozman, shinsto, HIM, Felicia)

I do not simply say everything about Stalin was a lie,but I find much of it is.I have read a long article and a whole book that proves that much of the things said are lies,and also that many of the things the Soviet Communist Party did were neccasseray to preserve socialism.What&#39;d you know about Ceausescu?next to nothing I bet.

[Osman Ghazi]

Hey, firstly I don&#39;t think that Stalin killed Trotsky.
Secondly, I&#39;m sure he was a swell guy as long as he didn&#39;t think you could possibly plot against him.
If you were on the other hand, you were ruthlessly hunted down until you were either dead or in a gulag. Please don&#39;t try to tell me that the gulags were a swell place to live because they weren&#39;t.

I&#39;ll admit that of the 10 million people in gulags under his reign about 3-5 million were kulaks who fought against him. However, the others were simply people he thought would plot against him. Of the people on the Central Commitee that he had killed, 70% had joined before the Revolution and were either peasants or workers by birth. Are you honestly trying to tell me that they were all counter-revolutionaries?

[Comrade Ceausescu]

http://www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html

[Osman Ghazi]

Hmmm.... If I gave you as a source a geocities site that said that aliens were invading the earth as we speak, would you believe it? No.

That being said, it does look to be fairly reliable and the numbers make more sense than what has been previously claimed.

However, Trotsky directing the underground Left Opposition from Mejico? I don&#39;t believe that for a second. And niether do you, i expect.

[peaccenicked]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/wo...37-st2/sf01.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1937-st2/sf01.htm)


By the way [who killed Trotsky?]most of the evidence points to Ramon Mercader.

http://www.mumblage.com/mercader.html

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Hmmm.... If I gave you as a source a geocities site that said that aliens were invading the earth as we speak, would you believe it? No.

It happens to be posted on geocities,but it was writen by a communist party official from another country,I can&#39;t remember which.Its on there though.

[guerrillaradio]

Some of the shit posted in this thread, I swear. Stalin had "true popularity"?? Then how come something like half a million Ukranians fought alongside the Nazis invading the USSR and many millions more "welcomed" them as "liberators"?? How come Stalin found it necessary to purge a ridiculous figure (often debated, so I won&#39;t give it) and imprison many more for "dissent"?? Quite apart from judging his actions concerning those who disagreed with him, or even Stalin himself, he was not at all truly popular, otherwise the aforementioned would not have been deemed necessary.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Thats not true.People truly believed in him.Even in work camps people would say things like "we should write to Comrade Stalin and tell him that we should not be here.He will let us out",etc,etc.As for the fact that Ukranians greeted the Nazis as "liberators"...Nazism was a popular ideology in Europe.It is not suprising to me that many people would welcome them.This is not neccaserily because they thought Stalin was oppressive,it is because they were Nazis.

[ernestolynch]

Slovakia, Croatia, Romania and Hungary all fought with the Nazis - was this Stalin&#39;s fault as well?

[guerrillaradio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 15 2004, 12:15 AM
Slovakia, Croatia, Romania and Hungary all fought with the Nazis - was this Stalin&#39;s fault as well?
They weren&#39;t under USSR control.

But now you mention it, the extremism of Stalin&#39;s policies, and indeed the "threat of Bolshevism" was used as a motivational lever for Fascists and Nazis throughout Europe, which is why the extreme right was allowed to get so far unchecked. This, of course, is not Stalin&#39;s fault per se, more the binary thought patterns of stupid American politicians, but it&#39;s still worth noting.

[guerrillaradio]

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 15 2004, 12:02 AM
Thats not true.People truly believed in him.Even in work camps people would say things like "we should write to Comrade Stalin and tell him that we should not be here.He will let us out",etc,etc.As for the fact that Ukranians greeted the Nazis as "liberators"...Nazism was a popular ideology in Europe.It is not suprising to me that many people would welcome them.This is not neccaserily because they thought Stalin was oppressive,it is because they were Nazis.
It&#39;s not my intention to get in a pro-Stalin, anti-Stalin debate, since I got bored of those 18 months ago, but I would say that if there was Nazi sympathy in the Ukraine, it would not be indicative of Stalin&#39;s "true popularity". The theory that&#39;s more commonly subscribed to is that Ukranians were inherently nationalist, and resented being ruled by what they saw as an imperialist Russian force. Hence they welcomed Nazism as a preferrable alternative.

[peaccenicked]

I dont understand this thread. Is anyone saying it was not Ramon Mercader?

[JasonR]

any Ukrainian that joined the nazis is insane. Anti-semitism has always been something popular in east europe, ever hear of the pogroms? This may have had something to do with stalin&#39;s policies because nazis propagandized their invasion of eastern europe as liberation from bolshevism and promised a life of luxury, similar to wha the yankees do to cuban doctors. of course it was all lies, often ukrainians that went to Germany were treated like what hitler called "untermensch", subhumans, and they ended up back in the Ussr.

[Comrade Ceausescu]

Yes...Pogroms were done for hundreds of years in Tsarist Russia.