Do you eat meat? Poll #VI

[Sentinel]

Time to restart this poll and thread again, in order to revive discussion and see if/how attitudes have changed over the last years. Feel free to continue any interrupted discussions from the last thread here.

See the previous polls here:

Poll #I (2004-2006) (http://www.revleft.com/vb/do-you-eat-t20091/index.html)
Poll #II (2006-2008) (http://www.revleft.com/vb/do-you-eat-t54001/index.html)
Poll #III (2008-2009) (http://www.revleft.com/vb/do-you-eat-t71026/index.html)
Poll #IV (2009-2012 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/do-you-eat-t104650/index.html)
Poll #V (2012-2015 (http://www.revleft.com/vb/do-you-eat-t170466/index.html)

The most recent poll, with a total of 444 voters, ended as follows:

Yes, I have no problems with eating meat 280 - 63.06%
Yes, but I won't buy it (freeganism) 11 - 2.48%
Yes, but only certain types 49 - 11.04%
No, but I use milk products and eggs (lacto-ovo-veg) 34 - 7.66%
No, I'm a vegetarian 34 - 7.66%
No, I follow the vegan philosophy and lifestyle 36 - 8.11%

[Thirsty Crow]

Oh jolly good, a new poll and a new discussion.

I'm a carnivore to the bone. Not sure how that happened but my folks say I ate only vegetables up until the age of 6. Overcompensation I guess.

But yeah. No moral qualms with meat eating, but in the hypothetical scenario of a world human community deciding on abandoning meat production and consumption...I'd be in favor. Reluctantly as I instinctively abhorr most vegetables (as in mere putting it in my mouth makes me puke or almost puke) If it made sense.

Maybe I'd become a solitary seasonal hunter then if people would have that. Until some better worlds for us, I don't see my consumption as political and sure as hell I don't intend to "vote" with my consumption.

[willowtooth]

I wont eat pigs or anything with a set of fangs except reptiles

[Sentinel]

I eat all kinds of meat, except of animals that taste like crap. But I certainly have no moral objections to eating any meat - except maybe of primates and whales, which aren't readily available anyway - thus voted for option 1.

[oneday]

My category was not there - I buy and eat meat but I have moral reservations about buying and eating it.

[Quail]

I'm vegan. I'm totally happy being vegan. My food is delicious and cheap. I would probably eat veggie food out of a bin, and in theory have no issue with freeganism, but I'm intolerant to dairy products and the sight, smell and thought of meat just makes me feel sick.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Yes, I eat meat, but less so now because it's so expensive.

[Comrade Jacob]

Veggie

[G4b3n]

I like my steaks so bloody that its like it still has a pulse. That shit is delicious.

[The Feral Underclass]

Vegan

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Opportunistic omnivore, forced to eat a bit less meat so that my blood doesn't end up dissolving through metal.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I voted for "Yes, I have no problems with eating meat", but I used to be a vegetarian who wanted to be a vegan (could not do so because of my parents) who was strongly pro-animal rights. I remember some of my first posts on RevLeft being about the Animal Liberation Front and attacking scientific testing using animals. I support animal welfare now, I don't think cosmetic products should be tested on animals, and I'd also like to cut down on meat and other animal products in my diet someday. Perhaps not totally, like I would never make a scene about it if some speck of beef touches my food or if there's little chicken bits on a salad, and I could probably have some now and then, but I eat a lot of animal products now and they're probably not the best for me. I've heard good things about lowering one's consumption of animals products, so I might as well try it again.

[Atsumari]

Our meat culture is sickening. I have no problems eating meat but it should be treated more as a delicacy rather than a staple food 3 times a day. Same thing with seafood. Meat should only be sold if its so fresh it can be eaten raw

[StromboliFucker666]

I am in the process of cutting meat from my life.

[BIXX]

Its gross and when I decide to actually think about what I'm eating I tend to be way healthier without it.

[RedAnarchist]

Most meat I consume is either seafood or chicken, although I do on occasion eat turkey or red meat.

[Zoop]

Yes, but I hate that I do. I want to become a vegetarian.

[Art Vandelay]

Vegetarian but not in your face about it. I find uppity vegans/vegetarians just as annoying as 'what's wrong with you? you don't like meat?' types.

[Comrade Jacob]

Yes, but I hate that I do. I want to become a vegetarian.

JUST DO IT! Yesterday you said tomorrow, so JUST DO IT!

[G4b3n]

JUST DO IT! Yesterday you said tomorrow, so JUST DO IT!

That shit is expensive. Why go to the store and spend an hour's worth of labor on the ingredients for a salad when I can get a Mcdouble for 1/10th the price?

[Comrade Jacob]

That shit is expensive. Why go to the store and spend an hour's worth of labor on the ingredients for a salad when I can get a Mcdouble for 1/10th the price?

It really isn't. Quorn is cheaper than meat. Just eat normal food but take out the meat, that's just an excuse.

[The Feral Underclass]

You can buy huge bags of TVP for a couple of quid.

[Quail]

Or you can cook and eat dried beans. I usually cook them and freeze them in meal sized portions so I don't have to remember to soak them over night every time I cook a meal.

[hexaune]

Yes, I do, although I hate large scale animal rearing/slaughtering. I think if I lived by myself I probably would have gone vegetarian&no milk (would still eat eggs from my own chickens), but my partner has a million and one food phobias as a result of the family environment she grew up in and meat/potatoes (and variants of) are pretty much all she eats (although I have got her into rice and fish). Trying to feed two completely different diets just isn't possible for us (we live together). Both financially and practically (i.e. the extra time to cook two completely different meals).

We're hoping eventually to move back to the countryside in France in a few years time and the plan is to then only eat meat we've reared and slaughtered ourselves. At least that way we know they've been well looked after/had a good life and not had to endure the horrible stressful experience that the abattoir must be.

[Црвена]

I was raised vegetarian for religious reasons, and still am vegetarian although I no longer identify as Jain. Mainly because I've become accustomed to it and don't want to pay for and thereby sanction the needless killing of a sentient being. But I have no problem at all with other people eating meat - it's a personal lifestyle choice.

[willowtooth]

I eat all kinds of meat, except of animals that taste like crap. But I certainly have no moral objections to eating any meat - except maybe of primates and whales, which aren't readily available anyway - thus voted for option 1.

no animals taste like crap when cooked right, but why do you object too eating primates and whales? 20 years from now monkey and whale meat could be extremely popular, Lobster originally was considered garbage food for the local dock worker, but because mid-western Americans who couldn't get fresh fish transported, could get lobster, they fell in love with them, and lobster then became a delicacy, who knows what could be popular in the future.

I don't eat certain animals because im afraid of disease, but im actually worried about the fact that most people here answered they have no problem eating meat regardless of the type, if you don't have problems with eating certain types of meat than it means you approve of cannibalism doesn't it?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

You're about a year late for the cannibal craze that tore through here. I was a vegetarian for a few years but I enjoy meat in small quantities now. I agree with atsumari that the culture surrounding the consumption of meat is pretty worrying not to mention unhealthy. Over the years as my culinary skill has improved I've thought about becoming vegan. My biggest complaint about the vegetarian diet was how bland my food was, I don't think i would have that problem now.

[willowtooth]

You're about a year late for the cannibal craze that tore through here. I was a vegetarian for a few years but I enjoy meat in small quantities now. I agree with atsumari that the culture surrounding the consumption of meat is pretty worrying not to mention unhealthy. Over the years as my culinary skill has improved I've thought about becoming vegan. My biggest complaint about the vegetarian diet was how bland my food was, I don't think i would have that problem now.

there was a cannibal craze seriously? lol link me to a thread

but I just dont agree that veganism is healthy, human beings brains developed because of eating meat, also there are plenty of carnivores in nature, i view veganism as unhealthy, my best example is all of the babies that die because their parents put them on vegan alternatives to breastmilk, or even vegan women whose babies die due too malnutrition when they do breastfeed, to me that is undeniable proof veganism is unhealthy

doctors and nutritionists don't really know what makes a healthy diet

[Quail]

but I just dont agree that veganism is healthy, human beings brains developed because of eating meat

That was back when people didn't have access to healthy, nutritious food from the shop round the corner. If there was a need for our ancestors to eat meat because they wouldn't have had access to enough nutrition without it, fine, but you can hardly argue that veganism in the UK now will cause malnutrition when we have giant supermarkets being built left, right and centre and vegan food is cheap and widely available. They're just two completely different situations.


also there are plenty of carnivores in nature
I don't think using animals to guide what is and isn't acceptable behaviour really works. Animals rape each other, kill each other, roll around in their own shit, etc. All of those things are "natural" but that doesn't mean we should do them. It is a logical fallacy that natural = good.


i view veganism as unhealthy, my best example is all of the babies that die because their parents put them on vegan alternatives to breastmilk, or even vegan women whose babies die due too malnutrition when they do breastfeed, to me that is undeniable proof veganism is unhealthy

The only cases of things like this I've read about have been, for example, a case of parents feeding their baby soya milk and apple juice instead of breast milk. I mean, of course that baby isn't going to do well. Breast milk contains everything a baby needs, fortified soya milk doesn't (unless it's soya infant formula, which is perfectly fine for babies to drink). Obviously cow's milk doesn't contain the right nutrients for babies either - babies should only drink breast milk or infant formula. So... It's not a case of "veganism kills babies," rather a case of "poor knowledge of infant nutrition kills babies."

[The Feral Underclass]

^Also, the health benefits of meat are grossly overestimated. While they are a good source of protein, they're not a necessary source of protein. Animal fat also contributes to arterial diseases and other metabolic disorders. If being long term healthy is something you care about then cutting animal fat from your diet is a really good way to go about that.

[willowtooth]

That was back when people didn't have access to healthy, nutritious food from the shop round the corner. If there was a need for our ancestors to eat meat because they wouldn't have had access to enough nutrition without it, fine, but you can hardly argue that veganism in the UK now will cause malnutrition when we have giant supermarkets being built left, right and center and vegan food is cheap and widely available. They're just two completely different situations.
yes i can because you have no real proof that veganism is healthy, if your doing it too protest commercial/ factory animal farms, then i support you if your doing it because of made up garbage science saying its healthy, science that could change any day than i dont support you


I don't think using animals to guide what is and isn't acceptable behavior really works. Animals rape each other, kill each other, roll around in their own shit, etc. All of those things are "natural" but that doesn't mean we should do them. It is a logical fallacy that natural = good.seriously the "rape is natural" argument don't be such a drama queen, there is no nutritional benefit to raping a woman as oppose too consensual sex, veganism and rape are not even close too the same subject.. c'mon.

the fact is, there are animals that survive on a purely meat only diet so saying "eating meat is unhealthy" is completely irrational and not based on logic whatsoever



The only cases of things like this I've read about have been, for example, a case of parents feeding their baby soy milk and apple juice instead of breast milk. I mean, of course that baby isn't going to do well. Breast milk contains everything a baby needs, fortified soy milk doesn't (unless it's soya infant formula, which is perfectly fine for babies to drink). Obviously cow's milk doesn't contain the right nutrients for babies either - babies should only drink breast milk or infant formula. So... It's not a case of "veganism kills babies," rather a case of "poor knowledge of infant nutrition kills babies." yes complex proteins are important and we dont know much about them, what is the difference between milk protein and the protein you get from eating bugs? there's very little information on the subject, i understand the vegan community has special powdered baby formula that's vegan and wont kill your baby but that doesn't mean it's healthy

[OGG]

Fish and Chicken. I don't like the taste of red meat as much as those two and high red meat consumption can lead to health problems.

[willowtooth]

gotta love lewis black

tXS5GBuk-GQ

[hexaune]

the fact is, there are animals that survive on a purely meat only diet so saying "eating meat is unhealthy" is completely irrational and not based on logic whatsoever


There are also animals that eat nothing but plants, that's not really a sound arguement. At the end of the day we are omnivors, not carnivors, so a balanced vegan diet can be perfectly healthy.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Is there seriously someone in 2015 who still thinks vegan diets are unhealthy?


doctors and nutritionists don't really know what makes a healthy diet

Ahh ok. Lets start a "Do you vaccinate your children?" poll now

[Quail]

yes i can because you have no real proof that veganism is healthy, if your doing it too protest commercial/ factory animal farms, then i support you if your doing it because of made up garbage science saying its healthy, science that could change any day than i dont support you
Personally, I am vegan because I don't believe in exploiting animals, but I also believe that veganism is totally safe and healthy for humans. I would say that most vegans I know have a decent understanding of what nutrients they need and where to get them from. I know thin vegans, fat vegans, muscular vegans, sporty vegans... Plus, from my own personal experience, I feel healthy. I'm strong and fit. That's not because veganism is some magical diet that will solve all health problems, but because it is a perfectly healthy diet for me.


seriously the "rape is natural" argument don't be such a drama queen, there is no nutritional benefit to raping a woman as oppose too consensual sex, veganism and rape are not even close too the same subject.. c'mon.
I was pointing out the absurdity of using "other animals do it" as a justification for doing something. In what other circumstances would people expect "animals do it" hold water as a reason for doing something, unless they happen to be debating eating meat...


the fact is, there are animals that survive on a purely meat only diet so saying "eating meat is unhealthy" is completely irrational and not based on logic whatsoever
Well, the fact is... Humans aren't carnivores, so you can't use the nutritional needs of, say, a cat to argue that eating meat is healthy. Meat can be part of a healthy diet (although there is evidence that eating lots of animal products is unhealthy), but that's really not the issue here. Most people aren't vegan for health reasons - that's just an added bonus. Most people are vegan because they're against the exploitation of other animals and the environment.


yes complex proteins are important and we dont know much about them, what is the difference between milk protein and the protein you get from eating bugs? there's very little information on the subject, i understand the vegan community has special powdered baby formula that's vegan and wont kill your baby but that doesn't mean it's healthy
Soya baby formula was probably designed with children with milk allergies in mind, rather than being some special vegan thing. I don't think commercial brands of soya formula are actually 100% vegan, but given the choice between your baby starving and feeding them something containing small amounts of animal products, I think pretty much everyone would choose the latter.

Regarding proteins, we just need enough of each amino acid to form complete proteins. People used to think that we should combine different types of protein to get them all in every meal, but that's actually not necessary.

[G4b3n]

It really isn't. Quorn is cheaper than meat. Just eat normal food but take out the meat, that's just an excuse.

Ill stick with my excuses. Not only because it is cheaper, but because it is fucking delicious.

[The Feral Underclass]

yes i can because you have no real proof that veganism is healthy, if your doing it too protest commercial/ factory animal farms, then i support you if your doing it because of made up garbage science saying its healthy, science that could change any day than i dont support you

What is it about eating vegetables, grains, pulses, soya and no animal fat that you think is potentially unhealthy?


seriously the "rape is natural" argument don't be such a drama queen, there is no nutritional benefit to raping a woman as oppose too consensual sex, veganism and rape are not even close too the same subject.. c'mon.

First of all, have a bit more respect fuckwit. Secondly, if you're going to act like a petulant little shit to someone at least have the decency to understand what the person is saying to you.

The point Quail is making is that if we were to follow the argument that eating meat is natural and something animals do, then why do we not rape, commit infanticide or eat each other? Rapists are animals, aren't they? They live in nature do they not? So why not allow them to rape if animals also rape in nature?


the fact is, there are animals that survive on a purely meat only diet so saying "eating meat is unhealthy" is completely irrational and not based on logic whatsoever

Yes, and we're not one of them. We don't require meat to survive.


yes complex proteins are important and we dont know much about them, what is the difference between milk protein and the protein you get from eating bugs? there's very little information on the subject, i understand the vegan community has special powdered baby formula that's vegan and wont kill your baby but that doesn't mean it's healthy

So then breast feed your child. Why are you giving your child anything other than breast milk anyway? That's the point that's being made.

[The Feral Underclass]

Ill stick with my excuses. Not only because it is cheaper, but because it is fucking delicious.

How is adding another ingredient to a meal cheaper? I don't understand how that can physically be true if we live in a world in which things cost money...

[willowtooth]

Personally, I am vegan because I don't believe in exploiting animals, but I also believe that veganism is totally safe and healthy for humans. I would say that most vegans I know have a decent understanding of what nutrients they need and where to get them from. I know thin vegans, fat vegans, muscular vegans, sporty vegans... Plus, from my own personal experience, I feel healthy. I'm strong and fit. That's not because veganism is some magical diet that will solve all health problems, but because it is a perfectly healthy diet for me. if your doing it as a form of protest then great! and i support you the same way i might support someone on a hunger strike, its not healthy for you, it's just a form of protest



I was pointing out the absurdity of using "other animals do it" as a justification for doing something. In what other circumstances would people expect "animals do it" hold water as a reason for doing something, unless they happen to be debating eating meat... i wasn't making that argument, i was saying we evolved because of our diet, and what we eat had a great deal too do with the human brain specifically evolving.



Well, the fact is... Humans aren't carnivores, so you can't use the nutritional needs of, say, a cat to argue that eating meat is healthy. Meat can be part of a healthy diet (although there is evidence that eating lots of animal products is unhealthy), but that's really not the issue here. Most people aren't vegan for health reasons - that's just an added bonus. Most people are vegan because they're against the exploitation of other animals and the environment.
i actually know alot of veagans and very few of them (the ones i know atleast) care about animals, and view that as just the bonus, one of them even told me hates animals and doesn't even like petting cats and dogs


Soya baby formula was probably designed with children with milk allergies in mind, rather than being some special vegan thing. I don't think commercial brands of soya formula are actually 100% vegan, but given the choice between your baby starving and feeding them something containing small amounts of animal products, I think pretty much everyone would choose the latter. ive never heard of soya specifically, but it's not just about formula, even vegan women who breastfeed have killed their children from lack of nutrition

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/


Regarding proteins, we just need enough of each amino acid to form complete proteins. People used to think that we should combine different types of protein to get them all in every meal, but that's actually not necessary.im sure theres all kinds of misconceptions about complex proteins, im sure there has been new reasearch on the subject this year alone, the fact that we don't know alot about them is why we shouldn't be so ready too jump too cutting them from our diet


What is it about eating vegetables, grains, pulses, soya and no animal fat that you think is potentially unhealthy? you need animal fat its very healthy for you, just because you shouldn't eat it by shovel full doesn't mean its not healthy, theres also alot of things wrong with eating alot of soybeans, i know vegans that completely cut soy from their diet




First of all, have a bit more respect fuckwit. Secondly, if you're going to act like a petulant little shit to someone at least have the decency to understand what the person is saying to you. might want too take you own advice buddy, you didn't even understand what i was trying too say before jumping too conclusions

and since were name calling your a poopface


The point Quail is making is that if we were to follow the argument that eating meat is natural and something animals do, then why do we not rape, commit infanticide or eat each other? Rapists are animals, aren't they? They live in nature do they not? So why not allow them to rape if animals also rape in nature? because theyre are no health benefits too raping people




Yes, and we're not one of them. We don't require meat to survive. we don't require alot things too "survive, there are tribes living under apartheid in western sahara that have eaten almost nothing but rice and beans for the last 10 years, doesn't mean thats all we need does it? the human body is quite resilient and can survive without alot stuff.




So then breast feed your child. Why are you giving your child anything other than breast milk anyway? That's the point that's being made. if a woman is vegan and breastfeeds she can kill her baby.


sources for what i said above

http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/

http://alexandrajamieson.com/im-not-vegan-anymore/

http://empoweredsustenance.com/is-vegan-healthy/

[Rudolf]

I find it fascinating, as someone who eats meat, that meat eaters are so adamant about telling vegans their diet isn't healthy when i'm pretty damn sure, 90-odd% sure, that that meat eater eats waaaaay too much meat for their diet to be considered healthy.

More than that, meat eaters dont have people constantly invalidating their eating of meat even if they consume waaaaaaay too much of it. I could have meat with every meal and no meat eater will comment on it. I could only eat meat and generally people won't say shit about it. But if i decided to not consume animal products these same people that didn't bat an eyelid at my frankly stupid levels of meat consumption will all come out screaming how i need to eat meat for a healthy diet.


Yes, meat eaters im calling you out. You don't give a shit if a vegan diet is healthy you just pretend to so you can badger vegans... Cut it out you arseholes.

[The Feral Underclass]

you need animal fat its very healthy for you, just because you shouldn't eat it by shovel full doesn't mean its not healthy, theres also alot of things wrong with eating alot of soybeans, i know vegans that completely cut soy from their diet

Every healthcare professional in the UK will tell you that if you want to have a healthy lifestyle then cut animal fat from your diet. Unless you want to tell me that you are more qualified than the UK health care profession then what actually are you talking about?


might want too take you own advice buddy, you didn't even understand what i was trying too say before jumping too conclusions

I understood you perfectly well thanks.


because theyre are no health benefits too raping people

Even if it were true that eating animal fat is healthy, which it isn't, it is entirely beside the point. Unless you want to argue that if there was health benefits to raping people that would be okay...


we don't require alot things too "survive, there are tribes living under apartheid in western sahara that have eaten almost nothing but rice and beans for the last 10 years, doesn't mean thats all we need does it? the human body is quite resilient and can survive without alot stuff.

We're not talking about adversity, we're talking about humans who live in abundance and can make ethical choices. Inthat context, the argument that we need meat is fallacious


if a woman is vegan and breastfeeds she can kill her baby.


sources for what i said above

http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/

http://alexandrajamieson.com/im-not-vegan-anymore/

http://empoweredsustenance.com/is-vegan-healthy/

I'm at work and don't have time to read these articles, but I can't imagine what they possibly say that convinces me that this a general rule or is caused exclusively because cows milk is cut from their diet. The implication that human bodies require cows milk in order to successfully breast feed their off spring is absurd.

[Rudolf]

The implication that human bodies require cows milk in order to successfully breast feed their off spring is absurd.

It most definitely is absurd as the ability to produce lactase in adulthood is a recent development.

[willowtooth]

Every healthcare professional in the UK will tell you that if you want to have a healthy lifestyle then cut animal fat from your diet. Unless you want to tell me that you are more qualified than the UK health care profession then what actually are you talking about?no they won't, they will say the UK's diet is too heavy with animal fats and you should reduce the amount of fat you eat. But nobody says eliminating animal fat is healthy, they in fact say the opposite




Even if it were true that eating animal fat is healthy, which it isn't, it is entirely beside the point.
yes it is true, fatty acids are in fact an important part of your diet, and any plants that provide the same nutrients as animal fat have been proven to not be easily absorbed into the body, causing a deficiency.



We're not talking about adversity, we're talking about humans who live in abundance and can make ethical choices. Inthat context, the argument that we need meat is fallacious there is no proof that a meat free diet is healthy, in fact study after study shows it's unhealthy




I'm at work and don't have time to read these articles, but I can't imagine what they possibly say that convinces me that this a general rule or is caused exclusively because cows milk is cut from their diet. The implication that human bodies require cows milk in order to successfully breast feed their off spring is absurd.those articles are about veganism in general, not about breastfeeding, and im also not sure why your talking about cows milk

[The Feral Underclass]

no they won't, they will say the UK's diet is too heavy with animal fats and you should reduce the amount of fat you eat. But nobody says eliminating animal fat is healthy, they in fact say the opposite

I must work in a different health care profession then. Every NHS guideline on healthy living argues that a reduction/elimination in saturated fat -- primarily, if not exclusively, found in animal fats is better for your health.


yes it is true, fatty acids are in fact an important part of your diet, and any plants that provide the same nutrients as animal fat have been proven to not be easily absorbed into the body, causing a deficiency.

This is misleading. I don't believe for a second that these studies are based on studying the diets of those who eat a well balanced vegan diet. If you're only eating one source of non-animal EFAs and an unbalanced diet and then eating a well balanced non vegan diet including a variety of animal EFAs then there will be a deficiency. I can concede that fish is a better source of omega-3 than say flaxseed, but if you eat a well balanced and varied vegan diet you can achieve the same goals in terms of the consumption of EFAs. Unless you think the NHS is lying.


there is no proof that a meat free diet is healthy, in fact study after study shows it's unhealthy

The only way for you to support this argument is to accept the absolutely ridiculously belief that saturated fats do not increase LDLs and decrease HDLs. Since saturated fats are pretty much found in animal fats exclusively, it's not hard to extrapolate from that.


those articles are about veganism in general, not about breastfeeding, and im also not sure why your talking about cows milk

We were talking about cows milk as an alternative to breast milk were we not...

[willowtooth]

I must work in a different health care profession then. Every NHS guideline on healthy living argues that a reduction/elimination in saturated fat -- primarily, if not exclusively, found in animal fats is better for your health.

no but im guessing you went too school quite awhile ago, must suck being in medicine where everything changes all the time

this is from the nhs:


We do not know what evidence was used to back up the official guidelines in the late 70s and early 80s. They could have looked at studies other than RCTs, such as observational studies (where health outcomes are studied over time).
This new review considered just six RCTs published before 1983, and all of them were conducted in men, most of whom already had heart disease.
Current dietary advice is not stuck in the 1980s, wearing shoulder pads and sporting a bubble perm. It has evolved as new evidence has emerged. In fact, a small amount of saturated fat is recommended as part of a balanced, Mediterranean-style diet.http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/02February/Pages/1980s-fat-guidelines-lacked-evidence-study-argues.aspx


This is misleading. I don't believe for a second that these studies are based on studying the diets of those who eat a well balanced vegan diet. If you're only eating one source of non-animal EFAs and an unbalanced diet and then eating a well balanced non vegan diet including a variety of animal EFAs then there will be a deficiency. I can concede that fish is a better source of omega-3 than say flaxseed, but if you eat a well balanced and varied vegan diet you can achieve the same goals in terms of the consumption of EFAs. Unless you think the NHS is lying.

here since you didn't read the links i posted ill post this excerpt


Some vegan proponents aren’t very honest when they try to convince others of the virtues of the vegan diet.

They actively use lies and fear mongering to scare people away from fat and animal foods.

Despite all the propaganda, there really isn’t any evidence that meat, eggs, or animal-derived nutrients like saturated fat and cholesterol cause harm.

People who promote vegan diets should be more honest and not use scare tactics and lies to make people feel guilty about eating animal foods, which are perfectly healthy (if unprocessed and naturally fed).

I’d also like to briefly mention The China Study… which is the holy bible of veganism and apparently “proves” that vegan diets are the way to go.

This was an observational study performed by a scientist who was madly in love with his theories. He cherry picked the data from the study to support his conclusions and ignored the data that didn’t fit.

The main findings of the China study have been thoroughly debunked.

I recommend you look at these two critiques:

Denise Minger: The China Study – Fact or Fallacy
Chris Masterjohn: What Dr. Campbell Won’t Tell You About The China Study
Also… a new study from China came out very recently, directly contradicting the findings of the China study.

According to this study, men eating red meat had a lower risk of cardiovascular disease and women eating red meat had a lower risk of cancer http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/



The only way for you to support this argument is to accept the absolutely ridiculously belief that saturated fats do not increase LDLs and decrease HDLs. Since saturated fats are pretty much found in animal fats exclusively, it's not hard to extrapolate from that.

in fact near meat only diets, like atkins have been proven to increase hdl's


Despite what vegan proponents often claim, there are no controlled trials showing that these diets are any better than other diets.

They often claim that low-carb, high-fat diets (the opposite of vegan diets) are dangerous and that the evidence clearly shows vegan diets to be superior.

I disagree.

This has actually been studied in a high quality randomized controlled trial (the gold standard of science).

The A to Z study compared the Atkins (low-carb, high-fat) diet to the Ornish (low-fat, near-vegan) diet (20).

This study clearly shows that the Atkins diet causes greater improvements in pretty much all health markers, although not all of them were statistically significant:

The Atkins group lost more weight, 10.4 lbs, while the Ornish group lost only 5.6 lbs.
The Atkins group had greater decreases in blood pressure.
The Atkins group had greater increases in HDL (the “good”) cholesterol.
The Atkins group had greater decreases in Triglycerides. They went down by 29.3 mg/dL on Atkins, only 14.9 mg/dL on Ornish.
Then the Atkins dieters were about twice as likely to make it to the end of the study, indicating that the Atkins diet was easier to follow.http://authoritynutrition.com/top-5-reasons-why-vegan-diets-are-a-terrible-idea/


We were talking about cows milk as an alternative to breast milk were we not...nope? don't know where you got that from:confused:

[The Feral Underclass]

no but im guessing you went too school quite awhile ago, must suck being in medicine where everything changes all the time

No. And nothing has particularly changed except there are more special interests. There is a fad at the moment to try and disprove the link between saturated fats and cardio vascular disease but it's all pretty tenuous.


this is from the nhs:

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2015/02February/Pages/1980s-fat-guidelines-lacked-evidence-study-argues.aspx

I'm glad you have accepted that saturated fat equals animal fat first of all. I think it's necessary to be clear that bad studies do not necessarily mean inaccurate conclusions. There has been decades of empirical evidence that reducing saturated fat reduces LDLs. People who eat high in saturated fat diets develop heart disease earlier and with more complications than those who do not. Reducing or eliminating saturated fat from your diet will decrease your level of 'bad' cholesterol. Any one who argues this is not accurate is a liar.

Now that article isn't an NHS guideline, it is an article by a third party healthcare research organisation


]here since you didn't read the links i posted ill post this excerpt

That excerpt is ridiculous. It's basically supposition and vitriol.


in fact near meat only diets, like atkins have been proven to increase hdl's

Who has proven this?


nope? don't know where you got that from:confused:

So when you spoke about milk protein you weren't talking about cows milk?

[Quail]

if your doing it as a form of protest then great! and i support you the same way i might support someone on a hunger strike, its not healthy for you, it's just a form of protest
You can't really compare veganism to a hunger strike though. I'm not starving myself or denying myself, and personal boycotts in themselves are not an effective form of protest. I'm not putting myself at risk to save animals, I'm just eating in accordance with my principles.


i wasn't making that argument, i was saying we evolved because of our diet, and what we eat had a great deal too do with the human brain specifically evolving.
You were pretty much saying that with your naturalistic fallacy, but okay. I've already disputed the claim that because early humans benefited from eating meat, we still need to eat it today. We can get all of our nutrients from plant based sources, and especially in a country like the UK where we have giant supermarkets popping up on every street corner, we have pretty easy access to lots of nutritious food.


i actually know alot of veagans and very few of them (the ones i know atleast) care about animals, and view that as just the bonus, one of them even told me hates animals and doesn't even like petting cats and dogs
You can hate animals and still think it's wrong to exploit them. I think being against the exploitation of animals is pretty integral to veganism. Some people may eat a plant-based diet for their health (which I wouldn't disagree with) but that's not the same as taking a political stance, which is what veganism is. Obviously I know a lot of vegans both IRL and on the internet, and although health may be a small motivation, the reason people are vegan is their rejection of using animals as objects for our benefit.


ive never heard of soya specifically, but it's not just about formula, even vegan women who breastfeed have killed their children from lack of nutrition

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/baby-breastfed-by-vegan-mother-dies/

Okay, so that article comes from a heavily biased (anti-vegan) website, and if you read the comments is actually about a baby which died of pneumonia because their parents tried to cure them with "natural remedies." I remember reading about the case at the time actually, so it's not really a vegan breast milk issue, rather the parents rejection of effective medicine.


im sure theres all kinds of misconceptions about complex proteins, im sure there has been new reasearch on the subject this year alone, the fact that we don't know alot about them is why we shouldn't be so ready too jump too cutting them from our diet

If all proteins get broken down into their constituent amino acids when they get digested, as long as we're getting enough of each amino acid, does it matter where they came from? I mean, it's actually very difficult not to get enough protein, even if you're only eating plant foods, so although meat eaters always seem to imagine that not eating animal products must result in a protein deficiency, that's complete nonsense. (Speaking of protein though, I met a vegan at judo who was one of the leanest, strongest guys at the club, so his very existence kind of disproves the idea that vegetable protein isn't any good.)

[The Feral Underclass]

^Yeah, I know of vegan body builders.

[lutraphile]

Vegetarianism/veganism being unhealthy is total BS. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/12/vegetarians-live-longer-longevity_n_1961967.html?utm_hp_ref=healthy-living

[willowtooth]

No. And nothing has particularly changed except there are more special interests. There is a fad at the moment to try and disprove the link between saturated fats and cardio vascular disease but it's all pretty tenuous. eating excessive fat is unhealthy but cutting it entirely from your diet is unhealthy as well, do you have any evidence saying differently?




I'm glad you have accepted that saturated fat equals animal fat first of all. I think it's necessary to be clear that bad studies do not necessarily mean inaccurate conclusions. There has been decades of empirical evidence that reducing saturated fat reduces LDLs. People who eat high in saturated fat diets develop heart disease earlier and with more complications than those who do not. Reducing or eliminating saturated fat from your diet will decrease your level of 'bad' cholesterol. Any one who argues this is not accurate is a liar. i didn't say saturated fats are specifically animal fats coconut and palm oil has saturated fat, reducing fat from your diet is healthy, eliminating it is not


Now that article isn't an NHS guideline, it is an article by a third party healthcare research organisation
fair enough im not entirely sure what the nhs is lol




So when you spoke about milk protein you weren't talking about cows milk?no i was saying that complex proteins in breastmilk are necessary for proper development, by feeding your baby soy milk, or being vegan and breatsfeeding, you are denying your baby these nutrients


You can't really compare veganism to a hunger strike though. I'm not starving myself or denying myself, and personal boycotts in themselves are not an effective form of protest. I'm not putting myself at risk to save animals, I'm just eating in accordance with my principles. i see it as denying yourself proper nutrition too protest the treatment of animals in factory farms, and vegans have done great work improving our diets, 5 years ago nobody had heard of kale, or quinoa corporate farms like perdue are now doubling and tripling their standards, required by the fda, because its easier too market. thats a good thing, but pretending that everyone should be vegan because its healthy is false, and has more to do with delusional paranoia being exploited by corporate marketing techniques than anything else. one of the first signs of paranoid schizophrenia is an unreasonable fear of whats in your food, many of them refuse too eat, and insist theyre being poisoned, they blame their own mental illness on the food they eat, and then the placebo effect takes hold when they cut one thing from their diet or the other. or when they stop eating from a certain source like their mothers cooking or the local grocery store or a restaurant



You were pretty much saying that with your naturalistic fallacy, but okay. I've already disputed the claim that because early humans benefited from eating meat, we still need to eat it today. We can get all of our nutrients from plant based sources, and especially in a country like the UK where we have giant supermarkets popping up on every street corner, we have pretty easy access to lots of nutritious food.
no thats false, early humans benefited from eating meat, the human brain developed because of it, your gonna have too show massive amounts of evidence to the contrary


You can hate animals and still think it's wrong to exploit them. I think being against the exploitation of animals is pretty integral to veganism. Some people may eat a plant-based diet for their health (which I wouldn't disagree with) but that's not the same as taking a political stance, which is what veganism is. Obviously I know a lot of vegans both IRL and on the internet, and although health may be a small motivation, the reason people are vegan is their rejection of using animals as objects for our benefit. that is very strange too say "veganism is a political stance" im not disagreeing with you but can you elaborate?



Okay, so that article comes from a heavily biased (anti-vegan) website, and if you read the comments is actually about a baby which died of pneumonia because their parents tried to cure them with "natural remedies." I remember reading about the case at the time actually, so it's not really a vegan breast milk issue, rather the parents rejection of effective medicine.there is alot of other cases people go too jail for it, in many different countries

11-MONTH OLD BABY GIRL DEAD IN 2008 --- FRENCH VEGAN PARENTS CHARGED
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html

Death by Veganism
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html

A vegan couple were sentenced Wednesday to life in prison for the death of their malnourished 6-week-old baby boy
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18574603/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/vegan-couple-sentenced-life-over-babys-death/#.VZ_Tu_lViko


If all proteins get broken down into their constituent amino acids when they get digested, as long as we're getting enough of each amino acid, does it matter where they came from? I mean, it's actually very difficult not to get enough protein, even if you're only eating plant foods, so although meat eaters always seem to imagine that not eating animal products must result in a protein deficiency, that's complete nonsense. (Speaking of protein though, I met a vegan at judo who was one of the leanest, strongest guys at the club, so his very existence kind of disproves the idea that vegetable protein isn't any good.) all proteins are not the same, the same way all fat is not the same, you need complex proteins for proper health, the protein from steak is different from the protein you get from eating insects, the protein you need for your muscles is different than the protein you need for your eyes or your brain

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

5 years ago nobody had heard of kale

I didn't intend to comment on this thread anymore because, while I eat meat and am unapologetic about it, I don't understand why people feel threatened by vegetarians and vegans, and "think of the children" is one of the lamest excuses ever. (It's also fairly easy to turn into an argument against "junk food" or whatever.) But this is just odd - and I've heard a lot of people say something similar. I understand kale is the new hip trend in America, but seriously, people have been eating kale for centuries. I'm 26 and I've hated kale since I was, maybe, three.

[willowtooth]

I didn't intend to comment on this thread anymore because, while I eat meat and am unapologetic about it, I don't understand why people feel threatened by vegetarians and vegans, and "think of the children" is one of the lamest excuses ever. (It's also fairly easy to turn into an argument against "junk food" or whatever.) But this is just odd - and I've heard a lot of people say something similar. I understand kale is the new hip trend in America, but seriously, people have been eating kale for centuries. I'm 26 and I've hated kale since I was, maybe, three.

i dont feel threatened by vegans that ridiculous, its simply unhealthy and has killed children. im not making a "mrs. lovejoy" argument, im saying adults can survive on almost nothing, that doesn't mean it is healthy.

and of course kale has been eaten for centuries where it grows naturally, but the extra nutrients from kale and whole list of other foods that vegans have introduced to the world creates a healthier society overall, so i do support veganism, im just clarifying that the vegan diet is unhealthy, if that makes sense

[Quail]

i see it as denying yourself proper nutrition too protest the treatment of animals in factory farms, and vegans have done great work improving our diets, 5 years ago nobody had heard of kale, or quinoa corporate farms like perdue are now doubling and tripling their standards, required by the fda, because its easier too market. thats a good thing, but pretending that everyone should be vegan because its healthy is false, and has more to do with delusional paranoia being exploited by corporate marketing techniques than anything else. one of the first signs of paranoid schizophrenia is an unreasonable fear of whats in your food, many of them refuse too eat, and insist theyre being poisoned, they blame their own mental illness on the food they eat, and then the placebo effect takes hold when they cut one thing from their diet or the other. or when they stop eating from a certain source like their mothers cooking or the local grocery store or a restaurant
You can see it that way if you want to, but you're wrong, as people have explained multiple times now.

I'm confused as to why you're comparing it to schizophrenia? I've heard of people making offensive comparisons to eating disorders, but that's a new one.


no thats false, early humans benefited from eating meat, the human brain developed because of it, your gonna have too show massive amounts of evidence to the contrary
You haven't even read my post, have you? Read it again before you respond.


I've already disputed the claim that because early humans benefited from eating meat, we still need to eat it today. We can get all of our nutrients from plant based sources, and especially in a country like the UK where we have giant supermarkets popping up on every street corner, we have pretty easy access to lots of nutritious food.


that is very strange too say "veganism is a political stance" im not disagreeing with you but can you elaborate?
Veganism is the political stance that it's not okay to exploit, objectify or oppress others, whether human or not. It's not just a diet. It's not about being thin/muscular/healthy. It's about rejecting the assumption that it's okay to exploit, kill and abuse animals for our benefit simply because they're not human.


there is alot of other cases people go too jail for it, in many different countries

11-MONTH OLD BABY GIRL DEAD IN 2008 --- FRENCH VEGAN PARENTS CHARGED
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/diet-veganbaby.html

Death by Veganism
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html

A vegan couple were sentenced Wednesday to life in prison for the death of their malnourished 6-week-old baby boy
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/18574603/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/t/vegan-couple-sentenced-life-over-babys-death/#.VZ_Tu_lViko
I'm sorry, I've only read a bit of the first source, but let me just post some quotes here:


Both are militant vegans whose diet forbids them eating any animal products whatsoever, and they only use alternative medicine.
...
The couple did not follow doctor’s advice to take their baby to hospital when she was suffering from bronchitis and was losing weight when they went for the nine-month check-up.

Possible vitamin deficiencies in breast milk can be dealt with by taking vitamin supplements (as many non-vegan breastfeeding mothers also do). Refusing to use proper medicine, on the other hand, is pretty much always a terrible idea, especially for young children.


The couple were vegans, but in 1996 switched to a fruitarian diet consisting of raw vegetables, fruit and nuts.
I'm vegan, and I don't think a "fruitarian" diet is healthy or suitable for children. It's not the lack of animal products, but the lack of calories, fat and carbs.


In an interview with a detective, Jan Moorhead said he never knew his son was going to die until his final breath of life, because of his faith in the herbal remedies which he was treating him with.

More parents thinking "alternative medicine" will magically cure their children.

I don't think I actually need to go on. Veganism doesn't kill children. Rejection of modern medicine and ignorance about nutrition does.


all proteins are not the same, the same way all fat is not the same, you need complex proteins for proper health, the protein from steak is different from the protein you get from eating insects, the protein you need for your muscles is different than the protein you need for your eyes or your brain
But all proteins break down into amino acids when they're digested, and then they're built back up into proteins inside our bodies... So as long as we get enough of the right building blocks, it doesn't matter where they come from.

BTW my girlfriend thinks you're a troll, and I'm beginning to agree.

[willowtooth]

You can see it that way if you want to, but you're wrong, as people have explained multiple times now.

I'm confused as to why you're comparing it to schizophrenia? I've heard of people making offensive comparisons to eating disorders, but that's a new one. im not saying all vegans are schizos im saying the concept of veganism appeals too schizos



You haven't even read my post, have you? Read it again before you respond.
i read your post you said eating meat is not necessary for brain development i simply asked you too post a source


Veganism is the political stance that it's not okay to exploit, objectify or oppress others, whether human or not. It's not just a diet. It's not about being thin/muscular/healthy. It's about rejecting the assumption that it's okay to exploit, kill and abuse animals for our benefit simply because they're not human.
thats fine just don't say its healthy that's my only problem with veganism



Possible vitamin deficiencies in breast milk can be dealt with by taking vitamin supplements (as many non-vegan breastfeeding mothers also do). Refusing to use proper medicine, on the other hand, is pretty much always a terrible idea, especially for young children.taking artificial, fairly expensive, and heavily processed vegan alternatives too breastmilk, will not kill your baby that is true, but that doesn't mean it is healthy, and you have no proof that it is



I'm vegan, and I don't think a "fruitarian" diet is healthy or suitable for children. It's not the lack of animal products, but the lack of calories, fat and carbs.i think its interesting you brought up fruitarianism, because my arguments against it would be almost identical too my arguments against veganism, the only difference is there is massive amounts of evidence that veganism is unhealthy, and since there is only few fruitarians there isn't much evidence



I don't think I actually need to go on. Veganism doesn't kill children. Rejection of modern medicine and ignorance about nutrition does.
veganism kills children. Your only argument is that "they didn't do it right" well they thought they were and they had as much confidence and just as much "evidence" as you


But all proteins break down into amino acids when they're digested, and then they're built back up into proteins inside our bodies... So as long as we get enough of the right building blocks, it doesn't matter where they come from.do you have any sources for that?


BTW my girlfriend thinks you're a troll, and I'm beginning to agree.no kidding? what a coincidence! my girlfriend thinks your a schizo!

read the first source again there is a whole long list of different cases of veganism killing children, simply google "veganism kills babies"

[Sewer Socialist]

Non-vegan children and babies die of malnutrition all the time, but no one blames omnivore diets for it. Which has a higher rate of death?

[Quail]

I'm not going to engage any further with willowtooth after this post, because frankly I can't be bothered. It feels like talking to a brick wall. I will get another moderator to intervene re: the schizophrenia thing... "Schizo" should never be used as an insult, and probably deserves an infraction for prejudiced language.

---

As I said before, you can't compare early humans, for whom food was scarce, and modern humans, who in countries like the UK have access to a huge range of food. It would make sense that eating meat would have supplemented the diet of early humans in order to allow them to evolve, but diets in places like the UK and the US hardly need supplementing with more protein. Most people eat too much protein.

There are dairy-free baby formulas, but I can't possibly imagine anyone arguing that babies with dairy allergies are unhealthy because they have to drink soya formula if their mothers can't breastfeed for whatever reason (or don't want to). As far as I'm aware there is no evidence that soya baby formula is unhealthy for infants.

Regarding vitamin supplements (which, again, a lot of both vegan and non-vegan mothers take when breastfeeding) - you probably eat loads of fortified foods yourself every day. Most flour that goes into bread, etc, is fortified, for example. There's nothing wrong or unnatural about taking vitamin supplements, even if they're just a precaution.

The reason I don't think fruitarianism is suitable for a child is because it's very difficult to get enough calories eating just raw fruit, veg and nuts. Children have small stomachs. They need nutrient-dense food and lots of energy, which raw fruit and veg alone can't provide, but plant-based foods can. I know this because I have a child of my own and I've done plenty of research in how to feed him properly. He's 5 and his brain is developing wonderfully, by the way.

My argument against your "veganism kills children" scare stories is that they weren't actually about veganism. There is nothing non-vegan about taking your child to see a doctor and giving them medicine. "Alternative remedies" aren't a vegan alternative to actual medicine that works, they're just bullshit, and there are plenty of non-vegan parents who have killed their children by denying them vital medical treatment because they've bought into homeopathy, or they have religious beliefs that forbid them from having life-saving treatment, etc.

The thing I said about proteins and amino acids is fairly basic biology. Proteins are made of amino acids. Enzymes in your stomach digest proteins and break them down into amino acids. Amino acids go into your bloodstream, and your body builds them back into proteins again.

[Sasha]

and probably deserves an infraction for prejudiced language

indeed, user infracted, please refrain from this language

[willowtooth]

indeed, user infracted, please refrain from this language

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/peanuts/images/1/1f/Charliebrown-1-.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20130411035507

Okay well im sorry for using prejudiced language, I have said all that I needed too say, so i will stop commenting in this thread for the near future :(

[Faust Arp]

I'd probably be a vegetarian if I was stronger-willed, but I simply like the taste of meat too much. I occasionally feel very guilty about it - and eating meat which is non-processed in a way that makes it visually obvious that it used to be a part of an animal (chicken legs, for example) make me queasy. Hell, I even tend to avoid looking at a whole fried chicken or a pig/lamb on a spit whenever I can - I find them somewhat disturbing.

[Alexey Sobelsohn]

I have been vegan for 8 months, before that I was vegetarian for 3 months. I just realized that me not eating meat can't change anything.

Workers' state should reduce production of meat ( while increasing production of other foods ) and improve living conditions for animals on farms. In maybe 100 or 200 years whole humanity could switch to veganism step by step

[The Feral Underclass]

15 vegan bodybuilders proving that you can be meat-free and strong (http://metro.co.uk/2015/08/20/15-vegan-bodybuilders-proving-that-you-can-be-meat-free-and-strong-5349931/)

[Patchd]

I assume this question is asked time and time again, but how do the vegans or opponents of the meat industry here react to the eventuality that we could grow meat artificially on an efficient and industrial scale?

Assuming communism, production and consumption will be completely alien to what we are accustomed now. Where humans on an individual level will have the choice regarding where they are to put their labour, I assume many wouldn't like to participate in the admittedly desensitising and generally considered undesirable aspects of the meat industry as it stands; livestock rearing, industrialisation of their confinement and their eventual slaughter. We are generally lucky under capitalism to benefit from the meat industry and for the most part remain alienated from its production. I assume there will be those who will still fetishise "natural" meat, in which case I assume they will have to either raise and slaughter their own food with an inevitably decrease in industrial scale and in somewhat of an isolation, or would have to collectively maintain a de-scaled industry of "naturally" grown meat. Either way, I think artificial meat production is a great step for meat eaters and may even allow us to reproduce rarer meats, like game and wild animals for consumption on a wider scale.

Cecil the Lion burgers for all!



i dont feel threatened by vegans that ridiculous, its simply unhealthy and has killed children.

What did I just read? Do you have evidence of what I assume is your sensationalism?

[Flavius]

I eat meat, I always did, and never really considered becoming vegan. It's just not my thing.

[Quail]

I assume this question is asked time and time again, but how do the vegans or opponents of the meat industry here react to the eventuality that we could grow meat artificially on an efficient and industrial scale?


If it could be done with no animal exploitation whatsoever (I think currently a few animals are needed to begin the culture), then I don't have a problem with it... But I probably still wouldn't eat it myself because I like my diet as it is.

Anything that causes a reduction in animal suffering and exploitation is good though.

[Bala Perdida]

My manager said they were gonna use an old paint sprayer, a bike, and a metal rod to basically make a pig machine.

[Patchd]

If it could be done with no animal exploitation whatsoever (I think currently a few animals are needed to begin the culture), then I don't have a problem with it... But I probably still wouldn't eat it myself because I like my diet as it is.

Anything that causes a reduction in animal suffering and exploitation is good though.

This highlights somewhat the contradictory nature of our own progress, that the initial exploitation of non-human animals could greatly limit or make redundant the need for exploitation of those animals in those circumstances.

If it was the case that the initial exploitation of animals could bring about a process of artificial meat production, which arguably would be more effective at combating the harm done to animals through the meat industry, than to just simply try and convince people to stop eating meat (because it isn't working - just because the number of vegetarians and vegans has increased does not mean that the trend for growth will continue unhindered - this is more dependent on productive and environmental conditions than by idealising a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, similarly to growth in political currents or organisations), would you not support the effort which initially requires exploitation of animals to eventually greatly reduce it? It would seem like a more concrete way of establishing your goals? I know the argument could easily be made along the lines of "well if I don't support the idea of animal exploitation, then I could not support it in any sense and would rather people just stopped eating meat altogether", but this is purely idealistic and ignores the potential for the idealism to become actualised in material terms through tactics contradictory to your principles.

On the point regarding productive and environmental factors, in capitalism, I suspect increase in vegan or vegetarian eating habits has largely been influenced by health marketing and an improved efficiency in production, making those products actually cheaper for consumers to buy, or idealistically more appealing to our own self (re: health effects), with the reduction in animal exploitation being relegated to simply an added sentimental bonus. I hold that more people are eating Quorn mince because Lidl has it on offer for 99p so often and people consider it more healthy to eat than regular beef mince, than because they want to reduce animal suffering.

[Quail]

This highlights somewhat the contradictory nature of our own progress, that the initial exploitation of non-human animals could greatly limit or make redundant the need for exploitation of those animals in those circumstances.

If it was the case that the initial exploitation of animals could bring about a process of artificial meat production, which arguably would be more effective at combating the harm done to animals through the meat industry, than to just simply try and convince people to stop eating meat (because it isn't working - just because the number of vegetarians and vegans has increased does not mean that the trend for growth will continue unhindered - this is more dependent on productive and environmental conditions than by idealising a vegetarian/vegan lifestyle, similarly to growth in political currents or organisations), would you not support the effort which initially requires exploitation of animals to eventually greatly reduce it? It would seem like a more concrete way of establishing your goals? I know the argument could easily be made along the lines of "well if I don't support the idea of animal exploitation, then I could not support it in any sense and would rather people just stopped eating meat altogether", but this is purely idealistic and ignores the potential for the idealism to become actualised in material terms through tactics contradictory to your principles.
Since animals are already being killed on a massive scale, I'm sure it won't make a difference if some of those animals are used to develop ways of making meat without animals, so I'm not against that. My point was that I would only consider animal free meat ethically sound (i.e., something I would hypothetically eat) if it didn't require the use of animals whatsoever. However, if other people are on board with only killing a few animals to create vast amounts of meat, then that's definitely the lesser evil.


On the point regarding productive and environmental factors, in capitalism, I suspect increase in vegan or vegetarian eating habits has largely been influenced by health marketing and an improved efficiency in production, making those products actually cheaper for consumers to buy, or idealistically more appealing to our own self (re: health effects), with the reduction in animal exploitation being relegated to simply an added sentimental bonus. I hold that more people are eating Quorn mince because Lidl has it on offer for 99p so often and people consider it more healthy to eat than regular beef mince, than because they want to reduce animal suffering.
Well, if we ignore fake meats, then vegetarian/vegan food is much cheaper. It's cheaper to buy a can of chickpeas than meat, for example (I think, anyway, since I haven't actually bought meat in a long time). Also, dried soya mince/chunks/sausage mix have always been pretty cheap, it's just the branded fake meats from health food shops, etc., that are expensive.

I do think you're right about the health motivation though. Reducing meat intake and vegetarianism have been gaining popularity for health and weight loss recently, which I suppose is good in that a positive side effect is that people are discovering that veg food is tasty and not "weird" as some people often think it is, but I don't know if it's actually raising awareness about the way people exploit animals. Veganism is more a political philosophy than a diet, so if someone's primary motivation is health, then chances are they're not going to look very deeply into what that involves. At least if plant-based diets are becoming more popular though, it creates space to actually talk about motivations other than health.

[Patchd]

My point was that I would only consider animal free meat ethically sound (i.e., something I would hypothetically eat) if it didn't require the use of animals whatsoever. However, if other people are on board with only killing a few animals to create vast amounts of meat, then that's definitely the lesser evil.

Ok, I take your point and thanks for expanding on it :)


Well, if we ignore fake meats, then vegetarian/vegan food is much cheaper. It's cheaper to buy a can of chickpeas than meat, for example (I think, anyway, since I haven't actually bought meat in a long time). Also, dried soya mince/chunks/sausage mix have always been pretty cheap, it's just the branded fake meats from health food shops, etc., that are expensive.

Yeah, but from someone who eats a lot of veg, I find many ingredients with animal products just makes things taste so much better (obviously subjective) or just right to the recipe and not something that we can buy cheap or conveniently if we are looking for substitutes. I don't actually mind soya chunks, but I don't generally cook with chickpeas (not a big fan of beans) but a lot of my cooking includes a few key ingredients which are, or with animal products in; fish sauce, chicken powder, eggs for example. But I find with a lot of mock meats even, the texture is noticeably different and this aggression will not stand, man. Plus how do you recreate blood? Where will I get my black pudding, or bleeding steak from? :P

Also, meat can be quite cheap in stores when you buy reduced price stuff or stuff on offer. The vast majority of the time not cheaper than a can of chickpeas, but then a lot of food with animal products in get reduced too. I got 24 mini sausage rolls from Asda for 20p the other day, and my mum likes to raid Waitrose of their reduced price fish and meats (it's really surprising how cheap you can get reduced stuff at some of the bigger Waitrose's considering how posh the store is, plus you get free coffee).

I really don't mind vegetarian/vegan food, and I can make it taste good. I hear meat eaters say how vegetarian food is shit and all I can think of is how much of a shit cook they must be, or how their diet is probably pretty much limited to what ready meal they can stick in the microwave. But then when I hear vegans saying that the flavours are the same with some substitutes I'm mainly under the impression that they haven't eaten meat for so long that they've forgotten what some things taste like. Papaya salad just isn't right without fish sauce.

[LeninistIthink]

If I'm brutally honest, I do think meat is murder, but I really like the taste.

[The Feral Underclass]

Yeah, but from someone who eats a lot of veg, I find many ingredients with animal products just makes things taste so much better (obviously subjective) or just right to the recipe and not something that we can buy cheap or conveniently if we are looking for substitutes. I don't actually mind soya chunks, but I don't generally cook with chickpeas (not a big fan of beans) but a lot of my cooking includes a few key ingredients which are, or with animal products in; fish sauce, chicken powder, eggs for example. But I find with a lot of mock meats even, the texture is noticeably different and this aggression will not stand, man. Plus how do you recreate blood? Where will I get my black pudding, or bleeding steak from? :P

Lol. Ethics are so inconvenient aren't they.


Also, meat can be quite cheap in stores when you buy reduced price stuff or stuff on offer. The vast majority of the time not cheaper than a can of chickpeas, but then a lot of food with animal products in get reduced too. I got 24 mini sausage rolls from Asda for 20p the other day, and my mum likes to raid Waitrose of their reduced price fish and meats (it's really surprising how cheap you can get reduced stuff at some of the bigger Waitrose's considering how posh the store is, plus you get free coffee).

I'm fairly certain you can get non-animal produce that is just as cheap if not cheaper than reduced Waitrose flesh, you just can't be arsed to look for it.

You do make nice food though, that's true.

[Patchd]

Lol. Ethics are so inconvenient aren't they.

I'm fairly certain you can get non-animal produce that is just as cheap if not cheaper than reduced Waitrose flesh, you just can't be arsed to look for it.

You do make nice food though, that's true.

Yeah, ethics are inconvenient, thankfully they aren't objective. :p

And it actually takes a lot of effort to get cheap Waitrose flesh. Have you ever put something in your basket on the last day on the best before so you can walk around with it a bit and go to the store guy to put an even cheaper reduced sticker on it when it gets nearer to the close of the shop?! That's dedication. Also, I like animal flesh. :grin:

[The Feral Underclass]

Yeah, ethics are inconvenient, thankfully they aren't objective. :p

There are of course subjective interpretations of ethics, which is why you have people who murder and rape children without thinking it's wrong. Daesh for example rape and murder children with impunity and they justify it based on the Quaran, but that doesn't mean that murdering and raping children is right. I would argue that there is an objective basis to ethics that one can understand objective.


And it actually takes a lot of effort to get cheap Waitrose flesh. Have you ever put something in your basket on the last day on the best before so you can walk around with it a bit and go to the store guy to put an even cheaper reduced sticker on it when it gets nearer to the close of the shop?! That's dedication. Also, I like animal flesh. :grin:

#firstworldproblems

[N. Senada]

I don't eat meat, my diet is a vegan one.
When I started to have a vegan diet, 6 years ago, i use to bring ethic and health motivations, but nowadays i changed my mind and the only reason 'cause i'm still having a vegan diet is for animal empathy.
I think individual practice and gaining of consciousness are important to awaken individuals from their "sleep of the reason" but cannot be the goals.
Human and animals "liberation" (and here we have two different kind of liberation to carry forward) can only be accomplished by the abolish of capitalism and the reorganization of the whole society on socialist basis.

[ShadowStar]

I eat meat. I think meat is tasty and have no qualms with eating it

[Khalistani]

Meat is not served within our temples, but we have no dietary restrictions and otherwise are permitted to eat what meat we want, so long as it is not halal or kosher meat.

[Caroline91]

I eat some kinds of meat. Fish, my favorite.:grin:

[Galbatorix994]

Yes,I eat meat very often,having no qualms about the so called "morals" promoted by vegetarians and vegans.

[Abdullah Tshabal]

I love fish and chicken. Salmon, oh man more please

[Quail]

I eat loads of kale and chickpeas... They're so delicious. I don't care about defensive omnivores, I think I'm going to go and stuff my face with some tofu. :drool::drool:

[the Karl Marx of Music]

I eat plenty of meat, though I recognise there are good reasons not to... Mainly when considering the bio-industry. But I also don't like that I would have a problem killing an animal myself while I don't have any problem with eating one. It seems hypocritical.


I eat loads of kale and chickpeas... They're so delicious. I don't care about defensive omnivores, I think I'm going to go and stuff my face with some tofu. :drool::drool:

Hah, kale (mashed with potatoes) is pretty much a staple over here in the Netherlands, at least during the winter-months. Great stuff :grin:

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I eat loads of kale and chickpeas... They're so delicious. I don't care about defensive omnivores, I think I'm going to go and stuff my face with some tofu. :drool::drool:

I'm still majorly weirded out by how kale has become a food fad in the West when I've been hating the stuff for 26 years now.

[Sewer Socialist]

Do they sell collard greens on your side of the ocean? Kale could never do what collards and garlic do for me

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

They do in Croatistan. It's not really popular outside some rural regions though.

[Црвена]

I'm still majorly weirded out by how kale has become a food fad in the West when I've been hating the stuff for 26 years now.

I...I...I don't...

Kale crisps are the best thing ever.

[human strike]

80% eat meat? That's not very good. I genuinely thought it would be less...

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I...I...I don't...

Kale crisps are the best thing ever.

You weren't there! You haven't seen the things I've seen!

Seriously, I hated a lot of vegetables when I was a kid, because the way my parents prepared them was (1) boil them; (2) pour oil over them; (3) job's a good'un. I rediscovered a lot of vegetables when I went to college - it probably saved me from having Xenomorph blood - but I still don't like anything related to wild cabbage. Kale I can sort of stand in stews. Brussels sprouts are, however, obviously evil.

[Црвена]

You weren't there! You haven't seen the things I've seen!

Seriously, I hated a lot of vegetables when I was a kid, because the way my parents prepared them was (1) boil them; (2) pour oil over them; (3) job's a good'un. I rediscovered a lot of vegetables when I went to college - it probably saved me from having Xenomorph blood - but I still don't like anything related to wild cabbage. Kale I can sort of stand in stews. Brussels sprouts are, however, obviously evil.

Oh, I can relate - the only thing stopping me from being morbidly obese, given how much I love food, is my vegetable addiction. But I can't eat any vegetables which haven't been drowned in spices, or at the very least grilled almost to a crisp.

I don't think I've ever had brussels sprouts before. In our house the unspoken rule is "If you can't name a vegetable in Gujarati, it's not coming in the house." This is probably the only occasion when I've been grateful for my parents' traditionalism.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I don't think I've ever had brussels sprouts before.

Ne cede malis.

[The Feral Underclass]

There is literally nothing about Xhar-Xhar that I have in common with him. Sprouts are fucking brilliant. Anyone who is a decent person knows this to be true.

[Црвена]

Ne cede malis.

Numquam cedam.

Damn, I feel posh right now.

[Scarlet Fever]

Used to be a vegetarian, was for ~2 years. I like that it's cheaper, and I felt better not eating animals, being an animal lover. Then I realized that my reasons for doing it were individualism/lifestyle-ism (I'm against the effective torture of animals for profits, which I realized boils down to capitalism, not individual choices), and that my way of doing it was ill-planned and hurt my health.

I certainly recognize that other vegetarians have motivations and executions that are not crap, and I could see going back to it if I got more coherent reasons for doing it and more time to plan it more healthily. As it is, I've made peace with having been born an omnivore while fighting the structures that reward systemic animal cruelty.

[Bala Perdida]

I tried giving kale to my lizard before but she didn't like it. I find it hilarious to this day that she had a visible opinion about it

[Comrade Jacob]

Just heard the HodgeTwins became vegetarians now :)

[tresha]

I eat only chicken and hog nothing else.

[Sewer Socialist]

You weren't there! You haven't seen the things I've seen!

Seriously, I hated a lot of vegetables when I was a kid, because the way my parents prepared them was (1) boil them; (2) pour oil over them; (3) job's a good'un. I rediscovered a lot of vegetables when I went to college - it probably saved me from having Xenomorph blood - but I still don't like anything related to wild cabbage. Kale I can sort of stand in stews. Brussels sprouts are, however, obviously evil.

Funny, I think my decision to be vegan had a similar route. My parents had the most bland cooking, including overcooking everything, and I still shudder to think of the boiled hot dogs, and dry, broiled chicken breast, and cold peas, or corn, or cubes of carrots, straight out of the can. I moved out as soon as I was eighteen, decided to stop eating meat, and went full veegs a few months later when I moved into a house where everyone else was vegan, and kinda just absorbed their cooking knowledge.

To this day, stir fried broccoli in chow mein just might be my favorite food. Did I already say it was garlic collards? It's one of the two.