Help with surplus value

[ManWithoutBeer]

Hey all,

I absolutely can't wrap my head around the idea of surplus-value in Marxian economics. What I've got so far is that its the unpaid labor a worker does that creates value that is extracted by the capitalist. I understand that part of the time laboring is spent earning back your labor-power, but I have a few questions.

(please go easy on me, I am new to all this stuff)

1.) How do I know how much my labor power is actually worth? For instance, how do I know that the capitalist is always paying me less than an equal wage for what I did?

2.) If it takes 4 hours to 'earn' back my labor power, wouldn't the other 4 hours of pay just lay over to the next time I had to dispense my labor power?

I am just overall kinda mystified by the concept, so anything would really help. Also, sorry if these questions are newbie-ish, I am, well, a newbie.

[cyu]

[Caveat: not all leftists believe the same thing.]

If you believe you deserve everything you produce, then how much labor is worth would be determined by how much employees decide to pay themselves, assuming they've decided to ignore the capitalist. The only reason employees are forced to obey the capitalist is because he bribes the mayor and police commissioner to attack the employees when they disobey.

A different kind of leftist might actually *not* believe you deserve everything you produce - those that don't believe in the concept of property at all would not say the paper airplane is "yours" if you made it. All it is, is just a paper airplane that exists in space. If it's in your hand, it's in your hand. If it's on the ground, it's on the ground. You can't hog all the farmland then claim control over all the food. To these leftists, anybody can show up and take the food - it is just up to both you and the rest of society to convince people to make food - if you can't, that's your own problem - it doesn't give you the right to assault people.

[oneday]

1.) How do I know how much my labor power is actually worth? For instance, how do I know that the capitalist is always paying me less than an equal wage for what I did?

2.) If it takes 4 hours to 'earn' back my labor power, wouldn't the other 4 hours of pay just lay over to the next time I had to dispense my labor power?


1) Your labor-power is worth what the ownership pays you, based on such factors as the state of class struggle and supply and demand, it hovers around the norm that it takes to reproduce an average worker in your position. However, the total value of what all the productive workers in the company produce will be higher than the cost of employing all of the labor-power and paying the operating costs (supplies, depreciation of equipment, etc.) - at least in a successful enterprise. The difference is the surplus. The capitalists decide what to do with this portion, whether it be investing in better machinery, donating to Super PACs, or giving themselves bonuses.

2) What? No.

[ckaihatsu]

[23] A Business Perspective on the Declining Rate of Profit

http://s6.postimg.org/dkv92iinl/23_A_Business_Perspective_on_the_Declining_Rat.jpg (http://postimg.org/image/yuivdcyy5/full/)

[RedMaterialist]

Hey all,

I absolutely can't wrap my head around the idea of surplus-value in Marxian economics. What I've got so far is that its the unpaid labor a worker does that creates value that is extracted by the capitalist. I understand that part of the time laboring is spent earning back your labor-power, but I have a few questions.

(please go easy on me, I am new to all this stuff)

1.) How do I know how much my labor power is actually worth? For instance, how do I know that the capitalist is always paying me less than an equal wage for what I did?

2.) If it takes 4 hours to 'earn' back my labor power, wouldn't the other 4 hours of pay just lay over to the next time I had to dispense my labor power?

I am just overall kinda mystified by the concept, so anything would really help. Also, sorry if these questions are newbie-ish, I am, well, a newbie.

Here is a simplistic attempt to explain it:

1. Labor is a commodity which is bought and sold at its market value. Strictly speaking it is "labor-power", the ability or potential-capacity to work.
2. Labor is a special kind of commodity in that it is the only commodity whose use creates more value than it itself is worth.

So. Worker "freely" enters into a contract with capitalist to provide labor-power for one hour at, say, $10.00. This wage is the price of the worker's labor-power, the price being determined by competition in the open market, competition between the workers and capitalists.

The worker then provides his labor-power for one hour to the capitalist who puts it to use as labor. The worker then produces a "value" of, say, $20.00. This value then pays for the next hr of labor-power, the raw materials, and other costs of production. The capitalist, and this is the key, then sells the product for its true market value of $20.00. The difference between the $10.00, other costs of production, and the selling price of the product is profit to the capitalist, say, a profit of $2 or about 10%.

The $10.00 wage is the value which is used to produce the labor-power: food, clothing, education, child care, etc. The cost of production, as is the case of all commodities, is the price of the product, the worker.

Here's an attempt to answer your questions:

1. It's impossible for anyone to know exactly what the value of their labor-power is worth. But through competition and supply and demand, the value is established, more or less, through the price of the labor, wages. It is important to understand that the capitalist is paying you the true value, on average, of your labor-power, the wage. The trick is that you can produce more value than the cost of your wages.

2. Just because it only takes you four hrs to earn back your labor-power, does not mean that you cannot work four more hours in one day. Marx analyzed this in terms of the working day. If four hours is the normal working day and in those four hours you can earn the entire value of your daily wages, then the capitalist can still keep you working for an additional four hours. This is why the working day has been shortened only through bloody labor struggles.

This, in my opinion, is one of the hardest Marxist problems to solve. How does this apply to an hourly wage? Let's say it takes 30 minutes to recover the value of one hr of labor. That value is $10.00. But you can't stop working after 30 minutes, there is a supervisor watching you every minute. Therefore, for the last 30 minutes you are working for free. I'm not sure if there can be any proof of this. However, I do believe that modern labor statistics show that the median value of the production of labor is about $50K per year and the median salary is about $25K (in the U.S.) These numbers are from the OECD. So, the working class produces twice in value what it is paid in wages.

If you look at the US Labor Department statistics what you can compare is the index of labor productivity to the index of labor costs. Productivity is always higher than costs (wages and other compensation.) Who gets the extra value of the surplus produced? The capitalist gets it as profit.

Labor, therefore, is the source of all value, just as Adam Smith, Ricardo and Marx maintained. This is just from my reading of Marx, esp chapter 7 of Capital, Vol I.

It should be added that, in the above example, the capitalist rate of profit is 10%, but in Marxist terms the rate of labor exploitation is 100%. This is because the capitalist class as a whole gets the entire surplus product of the working class.

Also, in my interpretation of Marx's theory of the decline in the rate of profit, the decline is because of the increased use of machinery, robots, computers, etc. You can make a profit off a human being, but not off a machine.

[Blake's Baby]

...
1.) How do I know how much my labor power is actually worth? For instance, how do I know that the capitalist is always paying me less than an equal wage for what I did?...

Because if he didn't, where did his profit come from?

If you do work that is 'worth' $40 (because that's what the capitalist gets) but you only get paid $10, then he's done you out of $30 hasn't he? All of the excess that you addd to 'some stuff' is the 'worth' of your labour.


... 2.) If it takes 4 hours to 'earn' back my labor power, wouldn't the other 4 hours of pay just lay over to the next time I had to dispense my labor power?
...

I don't even get what you mean. You never 'earn back' the labour you expend, you only ever 'earn back' a fraction. If you worked for 4 hours, but were paid for 30, then you would maybe be earning what you put in. But because labour-power is a commodity, the capitalists pay you at its replacement value, not the value of the work you supply.

If your job requires little training (ie, anyone could do it) you get paid shit, no matter how hard you work. That's because you can be replaced with no effort by someone else who knows they will also be replaced. None of you has any bargaining power, because you're easily replaceable. So you have low wages.

If your job is specialist, you are paid more highly, because the capitalist knows it's harder to replace you.

The capitalists of course will claim different, but if capitalism 'worked' then unpopular and shitty jobs would need to be highly paid, because people don't like doing them so would find something else. And politicians and company directors would be very badly paid, because everyone thinks they can do that job.

[oneday]

Here is a simplistic attempt to explain it:

1. Labor is a commodity which is bought and sold at its market value. Strictly speaking it is "labor-power", the ability or potential-capacity to work.
2. Labor is a special kind of commodity in that it is the only commodity whose use creates more value than it itself is worth.


I don't think in Marxian terms that labor is a commodity, it is just the activity that the laborer does. The commodity that the capitalist buys is the labor-power of the worker, his ability to do work.


What economists therefore call value of labour, is in fact the value of labour-power, as it exists in the personality of the labourer, which is as different from its function, labour, as a machine is from the work it performs.

The difference is important to understand surplus value.

[RedMaterialist]

I don't think in Marxian terms that labor is a commodity, it is just the activity that the laborer does. The commodity that the capitalist buys is the labor-power of the worker, his ability to do work.

I agree, it is the labor-power commodity which is bought and paid for in wages by the capitalists.



The difference is important to understand surplus value.[/QUOTE]

[Luís Henrique]

Hey all,

I absolutely can't wrap my head around the idea of surplus-value in Marxian economics. What I've got so far is that its the unpaid labor a worker does that creates value that is extracted by the capitalist. I understand that part of the time laboring is spent earning back your labor-power, but I have a few questions.

(please go easy on me, I am new to all this stuff)

1.) How do I know how much my labor power is actually worth? For instance, how do I know that the capitalist is always paying me less than an equal wage for what I did?

The value of your labour power is the amount of value it takes to reproduce it, or, in your words, that is "spent earning back your labor-power".

So, if you are reproducing your labour power, you are being paid the value of your labour power. If, on the contrary, you are not being able to replace your energies and raise a kid to replace you in the work force, then you are being paid under the value of your labour power.

You are not exploited because your employer pays you under the value of your labour power: you are exploited because you are paid the exact value of your labour power. You are exploited because you produce more value in a given time of your labour than is required to reproduce your labour power.


2.) If it takes 4 hours to 'earn' back my labor power, wouldn't the other 4 hours of pay just lay over to the next time I had to dispense my labor power?

I am not sure I understood your question. If it takes four hours of your labour to "earn back your labour power", than it takes four hours of your labour for you (and your future replacement in the work force) survive for 24 hours (a little bit more, indeed, if we take weekends, holydays, vacations, and retirement into account). If you work for eight hours a day, and it takes four hours of your labour to "earn back your labour power", then each labour day you produce enough labour for you (and your future replacement in the work force) to survive for two days; but you will be paid only half of that, because you only need to survive for one day to produce what it takes for you to survive for two days.

Luís Henrique