Greece to hold referendum on bailout, Tsipras says

[The Feral Underclass]

Greece will hold a referendum on 5 July controversial bailout deal with foreign creditors, Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras has announced.

In a speech on national TV, he said his government had been asked to accept "unbearable" austerity measures.

Greece earlier rejected an offer from the creditors which could have helped the country to avoid defaulting on its debt.

Greece has to make a €1.5bn ($1.7bn; £1.06bn) IMF debt repayment on 30 June.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33296839

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Hopefully the greeks will just try to burn parliament down again instead

[The Feral Underclass]

"Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras has called a referendum on Sunday 5 July on whether the country should accept or reject a bailout agreement offered by creditors.

Analysis Greeks mistrust EU, EC, ECB – but retain some faith in the euro
John Hooper in Athens

“These proposals, which clearly violate the European rules and the basic rights to work, equality and dignity show that the purpose of some of the partners and institutions was not a viable agreement for all parties, but possibly the humiliation of an entire people,” Tsipras said in a televised address to the nation.

He made the comments hours after flying back from Brussels, where European and International Monetary Fund creditors offered Greece a deal that his government rejected as inadequate.

Athens will ask for an extension of its bailout agreement, which ends on 30 June, by a few days in light of the referendum, he said."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/26/greece-calls-referendum-on-bailout-terms-offered-by-creditors

[Comrade Jacob]

Tsipras needs to say "fuck you EU", leave, smash capitalism and then go to bed.

[Rafiq]

Leaving the EU is among the worst possible outcomes. Regardless of the well-intentioned Syriza, subordination of Greece to the Russian sphere of influence would most certainly destroy anything redeemable about it.

[lutraphile]

This is great news. Hope the KKE can rethink their position on Syriza. The left as a whole has a real opportunity here if its most orthodox constituents can find it in their hearts to be a part of it

I want to see a flash poll and see how it's looking.

[Tim Cornelis]

Hopefully the greeks will just try to burn parliament down again instead

That never happened.

[The Feral Underclass]

Sasha had some good analysis on FB. He should repost it here.

I think this whole saga has been interesting if not simply because it has neatly exposed the Troika for the ideologically motivated racketeers that they really are.

[Sasha]

you mean this?


(after Sentinel asking whether this was likely planned)

i think they where planning on doing this, everything they have been doing the last months their priority has been getting as much as possible euro's in cash into the country so that even when they have to default and leave the euro they, and more importantly, the people, have enough "stable" currency to survive the worst of the hit.
because obviously their euro's are still valid euro's even after they leave the euro itself.

[The Feral Underclass]

you mean this?

Yeah. I had never really considered that. To be honest, I was convinced Tsipras was going to eventually accept the terms of the demands and that all this negotiation, rhetoric and back-and-forths was just bluster to try and mitigate the inevitable fall out that would come back in Greece.

I must admit, I'm fairly surprised.

[Sasha]

I had an inkling, for all the shit marxists e.a. give to "activists" for never being able to govern i guess treating at least an "shorttime" issue like this as an activist campaing (syriza's background) isnt that weird.
They knew they would probably never come to an acceptable agreement, they know that push comes to shove there is a good chance the greek people will rather vote to devault and leave the euro (industry is already destroyed, default and a return to the dragme will in the end be good for tourism, makes them compatitive with turkey again) so their whole game has been on a. Showing their demands are reasonable and those of the trojka are not b. Win as much time and cash to get a huge amount of cash euro's in the streets, if they where not seriously considering a default and euro exit they would have capped cash withdrawels or even closed the banks weeks ago, not there are billions of euro's cash in cirqulation on the greek streets, if they default and leave the euro they are in no way forced to stop accepting euro's as currency, they just cant print new ones, so they will have a reasonable bridge to get to a new situation.

[FSL]

The government is saying that an exit from the eurozone is not on the table, that only Schauble and his greek minions say that this is what's at stake. They're saying they want a no vote they'll take back to the negotiating table to get the troika to agree with its previous proposal.
Everyone in the government, even the left platform says that en exit from the eurozone is Schauble's wish and that they're passioantely against it.

The pro eu parties say that the question, no matter what it is, will end up being "yes or no to the euro"

The communist party suggested a referendum with 2 questions, first being "Do you reject the agreement proposals set forth from the institutions and the government?" and the second being "Are you in favour of an exit from the EU and of cancelling all the memorandum laws?"

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That never happened.

It's a joke. The point is that the last time the left largely recognized that an EU referendum was just a nasty trick the state was playing with the greeks. Now that it's coming from Syriza I guess we can all get on board though.

[Sasha]

the speech;



An End to the Blackmail (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/06/tsipras-speech-referendum-bailout-troika/)



For six months now the Greek government has been waging a battle in conditions of unprecedented economic suffocation (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/02/syriza-euro-greek-exit/) to implement the mandate you gave us on January 25 (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/syriza-greece-victory-kouvelakis-left/).
The mandate we were negotiating with our partners was to end the austerity (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/phase-one/#q29) and to allow prosperity and social justice to return to our country.
It was a mandate for a sustainable agreement that would respect both democracy and common European rules and lead to the final exit from the crisis.
Throughout this period of negotiations, we were asked to implement the agreements concluded by the previous governments with the Memoranda, although they were categorically condemned by the Greek people in the recent elections.
However, not for a moment did we think of surrendering, that is to betray your trust.
After five months of hard bargaining, our partners, unfortunately, issued at the Eurogroup the day before yesterday an ultimatum (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/06/kouvelakis-greece-europe-negotiations-debt-default/) to Greek democracy and to the Greek people. An ultimatum that is contrary to the founding principles and values of Europe, the values of our common European project.
They asked the Greek government to accept a proposal that accumulates a new unsustainable burden on the Greek people and undermines the recovery of the Greek economy and society, a proposal that not only perpetuates the state of uncertainty but accentuates social inequalities even more.
The proposal of institutions includes: measures leading to further deregulation of the labor market, pension cuts, further reductions in public sector wages and an increase in VAT on food, dining and tourism, while eliminating tax breaks for the Greek islands.
These proposals directly violate the European social and fundamental rights: they show that concerning work, equality and dignity, the aim of some of the partners and institutions (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/04/greece-syriza-euro-merkel-austerity/) is not a viable and beneficial agreement for all parties but the humiliation the entire Greek people.
These proposals mainly highlight the insistence of the IMF in the harsh and punitive austerity (https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/06/syriza-greece-austerity-neoliberalism-tsipras/) and make more timely than ever the need for the leading European powers to seize the opportunity and take initiatives which will finally bring to a definitive end the Greek sovereign debt crisis, a crisis affecting other European countries and threatening the very future of European integration.
Fellow Greeks, right now weighs on our shoulders the historic responsibility towards the struggles and sacrifices of the Greek people for the consolidation of democracy and national sovereignty. Our responsibility for the future of our country.
And this responsibility requires us to answer the ultimatum on the basis of the sovereign will of the Greek people.
A short while ago at the cabinet meeting I suggested the organization of a referendum, so that the Greek people are able to decide in a sovereign way. The suggestion was unanimously accepted.
Tomorrow the House of Representatives will be urgently convened to ratify the proposal of the cabinet for a referendum next Sunday, July 5 on the question of the acceptance or the rejection of the proposal of institutions.
I have already informed about my decision the president of France and the chancellor of Germany, the president of the ECB, and tomorrow my letter will formally ask the EU leaders and institutions to extend for a few days the current program in order for the Greek people to decide, free from any pressure and blackmail, as required by the constitution of our country and the democratic tradition of Europe.
Fellow Greeks, to the blackmailing of the ultimatum that asks us to accept a severe and degrading austerity without end and without any prospect for a social and economic recovery, I ask you to respond in a sovereign and proud way, as the history of the Greek people commands.
To authoritarianism and harsh austerity, we will respond with democracy, calmly and decisively.
Greece, the birthplace of democracy will send a resounding democratic response to Europe and the world.
I am personally committed to respect the outcome of your democratic choice, whatever that is. And I’m absolutely confident that your choice will honor the history of our country and send a message of dignity to the world.
In these critical moments, we all have to remember that Europe is the common home of peoples. That in Europe there are no owners and guests. Greece is and will remain an integral part of Europe and Europe is an integral part of Greece. But without democracy, Europe will be a Europe without identity and without a compass.
I invite you all to display national unity and calm in order to take the right decisions. For us, for future generations, for the history of the Greeks. For the sovereignty and dignity of our people.


— Athens, June 27, 2015, 1 AM local time.

[Tim Cornelis]

The majority of Greeks are now for accepting a bailout and the conditions that go with it, so I think the referendum is just a way to divert responsibility, "the people have spoken [in favour of imposed austerity], our hands are tied".

[The Feral Underclass]

How do you know the "majority" of people want this?

[Tim Cornelis]

saw it on the news, they did a poll I'm guessing.

[Sasha]

The majority of Greeks are now for accepting a bailout and the conditions that go with it, so I think the referendum is just a way to divert responsibility, "the people have spoken [in favour of imposed austerity], our hands are tied".

if this was their game they would be stupid to actively encourage a "NO" vote like the government has done in each speech since yesterday, they would have adopted way more neutral language, i think they are banking on a no vote and then either default or have further negotiations because they think the EU will then reign in the IMF.

[Philosophos]

This is great news. Hope the KKE can rethink their position on Syriza. The left as a whole has a real opportunity here if its most orthodox constituents can find it in their hearts to be a part of it

I want to see a flash poll and see how it's looking.

lol no :laugh:

KKE actually said something like "say no to the bankers/EE etc and also say no to the government"

:laugh:

[Tim Cornelis]

hmm, maybe for reasons of credibility? It just seems a big gamble. They can already claim to have a mandate to reject it if they want to, pointing to the electoral results and with referendums not being common in Greece that would seem sufficient.

When Varoufakis was only just the new minister of (finance?), it was suggested in the media that he would use his game theory expertise to manipulate negotiations in a grande strategy. That has kinda been falling silent, but I guess if they do have such a strategy, his place and position would make sense...? I dunno.

Time will tell.

[Philosophos]

saw it on the news, they did a poll I'm guessing.

Don't believe the polls, mifriend. Like really don't believe them.

[PhoenixAsh]

This is rapidly becoming a game of chicken.....who blinks last wins.

A default from Greece as well as a Greek exit out of the EU will create a systemic recession in the EU and will leave the Euro vulnerable to currency speculation. It will certainly set precedent for the cohesion of the EU in the future and it will challenge EU power perception as both an economic and political force. The EU is downplaying this.

An exit also holds deep repercussions for Greece and will deeply hurt trade and bargaining positions on the global markets. On top of that it will probably adversely affect the living standards that are left of the Greek population and increase unemployment and poverty levels. And for that reason most Greeks want to stay in the union.

The EU position is banking on the fears of being worse off....and the concept of being the lesser of two evils...by openly expressing the possibility of a Greek exit.

What SYRIZA is seeking is a democratic mandate to reject the current "proposals" which would allow them to reverse this game.

[FSL]

There are three possible scenarios imo.

First, the government wants to force a yes amid "chaos". Pointing to that is that Varoufakis sais earlier today that if the institutions were to improve their offer, the government would support the "yes" in the referendum.

Another scenario is that they had a hidden agenda from the beginning to go back to drachma. This is what the conservatives are saying and I'm not buying it.

And the last possible scenario is that they truly are that naive and believe that the EU can be "democratic" and humane. Despite what happened in the last five months when they were negotiating with a mandate of no more austerity and ended up with an extra 7 billion in taxes and cuts (their proposal) not being enough.

[Bee]

Haven't studied Greece's political conditions in-depth but it seems like Alexis and Syriza is doing the best a socialist can working within liberal democratic institutions.

[FSL]

Haven't studied Greece's political conditions in-depth but it seems like Alexis and Syriza is doing the best a socialist can working within liberal democratic institutions.

He isn't working within by force, he's accepting them and when it comes to the EU, he's craving them even.
Also if by the best you mean nothing, you're right.

[Luís Henrique]

saw it on the news, they did a poll I'm guessing.

And of course the news and the poll are absolutely neutral; they certainly don't have a vested interest in making Greece kneel down, no. Not possible.

Yes, the cute little green men in my basement told me that, so it must be true.

Luís Henrique

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't really understand that attitude. By that logic we have to ignore all statistics and information.

[happy]

what about Greeks in general? how are they handling the news, and the situation with the possible exit from EU?
I know people had trouble withdrawing their money from banks in the last months, but from the pictures I see now people are lining up near banks still - are they getting their money?

[Luís Henrique]

I don't really understand that attitude. By that logic we have to ignore all statistics and information.

Nope. We should acknowledge statistics and information - and the bias of those providing statistics and information.

Which, in the present case, is the bias of people who really want to see Greece paying its debts, even if it means unemployment and poverty for the Greek people.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

The Greek parliament just approved the referendum.

Voted yay, SYRIZA, ANEL, Golden Dawn. (178 votes)

Voted nay, ND, PASOK, To Potami, KKE. (122 votes)

Now let's see how each political actor behaves in the (very short) campaign for the Greek's vote.

Luís Henrique

[Sasha]

Did the kke release a semi coherent statement about their no vote?

[Thirsty Crow]

Tsipras needs to say "fuck you EU", leave, smash capitalism and then go to bed.
Do you really believe that capital can be smashed in Greece by means of a EU exit?

Didn't we have plenty of opportunities to learn from the historical movements which unequivocally showed that such an isolation would first of all strangle the nominally politically empowered working class?

Anyway, I'm taking this provisionally as our beloved social democrats' plan to rein in the situation and remain atop of it by appealing to their voter and class base.

[Tim Cornelis]

Nope. We should acknowledge statistics and information - and the bias of those providing statistics and information.

Which, in the present case, is the bias of people who really want to see Greece paying its debts, even if it means unemployment and poverty for the Greek people.

Luís Henrique

But you don't even know the source of my claim, where it is from, who conducted the poll, how it was conducted, so your presumption of bias is seems based on "it's numbers I don't like, therefore they must be false".

[Luís Henrique]

But you don't even know the source of my claim, where it is from, who conducted the poll, how it was conducted, so your presumption of bias is seems based on "it's numbers I don't like, therefore they must be false".

First thing, they are numbers from a resource made before the government's decision to take the issue to a referendum - and to ask for a "no" vote. To divulge the numbers without this caveat is already to show a definite bias in favour of the Troika.

Luís Henrique

[lutraphile]

polling looks pretty grim
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/27/us-eurozone-greece-poll-idUSKBN0P70RY20150627

[KurtFF8]

Did the kke release a semi coherent statement about their no vote?

I haven't seen anything but I would assume it has to do with the argument that Syriza is indeed just doing this so they can get a "yes" vote and claim that they are just fulfilling the will of the people.

Syriza is campaigning for a "no" vote, however. But it seems that a "yes" vote is more likely (http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jun/28/greek-crisis-ecb-emergency-liquidity-referendum-bailout-live#block-55901b2be4b0c9bda8d8ab19)

[John Nada]

But you don't even know the source of my claim, where it is from, who conducted the poll, how it was conducted, so your presumption of bias is seems based on "it's numbers I don't like, therefore they must be false".First thing, they are numbers from a resource made before the government's decision to take the issue to a referendum - and to ask for a "no" vote. To divulge the numbers without this caveat is already to show a definite bias in favour of the Troika.

Luís HenriqueI've taken some phone polls before. The questioner phrases the questions so it's slanted towards a preferred answer.

[FSL]

Syriza is campaigning for a no vote on the lenders' proposal (http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5270_en.htm?locale=en attachement at the bottom) as a "bargaining chip" to get them to move closer or accept the government's proposal (http://www.revleft.com/vb/syrizas-complete-proposal-t193433/index.html).

The communist party asked for both proposals to be included in the referendum along with a question on EU participation, something the government denied to even discuss in the paliament. The communist party decided to vote against both proposals in the referendum anyway via a specially designed spoiled ballot.

[PhoenixAsh]

So if I understand correctly the KKE voted against the referendum because the only possible vote was on the EU dictate rather than the EU dictate and the austerity measures SYRIZA is willing to offer?

This makes sense.


What is the KKE counter proposal that should happen, barring and excluding revolution, within the current situation if both proposals were rejected?

[FSL]

What is the KKE counter proposal that should happen, barring and excluding revolution
So, to get this straight, you're asking what is KKE's proposal on what should happen, barring and excluding KKE's proposal?

[PhoenixAsh]

Yes. Because you know that that is not going to happen and isn't realistic. So....they must have another plan.

[Sasha]

So....they must have another plan.

i think you are giving the KKE way to much credit here... :rolleyes:

[FSL]

Either you're both in the wrong forum or this forum has the wrong name.

Maybe the second option is closer to the truth nowadays.

[Luís Henrique]

polling looks pretty grim
http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/27/us-eurozone-greece-poll-idUSKBN0P70RY20150627

Again, these polls have been conducted before the negotiations stalled.

Up to then, the Greek government was negotiating with the creditors. And it had the support of most of the electorate, as can be seen in a poll by Public Issue, link here (http://www.publicissue.gr/en/2768/pol-bar-145-june-2015/): 41% of "definitely approve", 16% of "rather approve".

And so, up to then, "supporting the negotiations" and "supporting the government" meant the same thing.

Now, however, the government has left the table, and is calling for a "no" vote against the creditors proposals/impositions. So, now, "supporting negotiations" and "supporting the government" no longer mean the same thing; rather, they mean the opposite of each other. Consequently, the Greeks who until last weak supported both will have to chose; either they vote "yes" Sunday, and support the negotiations against their government, or they vote "no", and support their government decision to break with the negotiations.

Now, it may well be that they do the former, and bring down their government by voting "yay", but we can't bet on that on surveys conducted before the new situation was created.

Further, a "yay" vote on Sunday means the resignation of the cabinet, and new elections. If the Greek voters are coherent, they will then vote ND back into government, and capitulation will ensue*. If they vote for SYRIZA again, they will be incoherent, and demanding that a given political team does the opposite of what such political team seems willing to do.

Luís Henrique

* Or perhaps they will find some way to make sence of KKE's zigzags, and vote for a party that seems to be doing its best to get as least votes as possibles, and "revolution" will ensue. Which will be a big problem for the KKE, of course, as it has absolutely no intention or plans for a revolution, and will not know what to do if entrusted with the vote of the majority of Greeks.

[Luís Henrique]

Yes. Because you know that that is not going to happen and isn't realistic. So....they must have another plan.

Of course they have. They plan to have as few votes as they can manage to without losing representation in the Parliament, so that they can keep the tribune without having to take any responsibility for what is coming in.

Oh, you meant a plan for Greece, or for Europe, or for the working class. No, sorry. The haven't any for these.

Luís Henrique

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

What planet have I landed on :confused:
http://i.imgur.com/9eveR3F.jpg?1http://imgur.com/9eveR3Fhttp://imgur.com/9eveR3F

[PhoenixAsh]

I am just wondering where the KKE is seeing the revolutionary potential in between now and the inevitable time of default resulting from a Greek refusal to negotiate or strike a bargain. Because they are taking some pretty damned awesome shooms and I definitely need to get me some as well.

The call for revolution is a platitude. Nobody will disagree that that is a solution but it isn't a realistic expectation on any short term.

Nor has there been any constructive work in the last fee years but rather every attempt to stop escalation of the struggle.

And even in the extreme unlikely situation that we just assume reality doesn't actually count and a revolution would take place...socialism in one country, especially one so tiny and isolated as Greece, is not only doomed to fail but Greece would be immediately plunged in isolation, thrown from the EU, and probably immediately invaded. It would still need to to ally rely on capitalist structures even if these events would not all occur.

Does that mean we should oppose a revolution...of course not. But perhaps you should start working towards it.

[Luís Henrique]

Stock markets going down globally.

Tomorrow to Wednesday, the inevitable default (unless the Greek government has 2 billion dollars stacked under its mattress, perhaps). So the stock markets are probably going even crazier.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Up to then, the Greek government was negotiating with the creditors. And it had the support of most of the electorate, as can be seen in a poll by Public Issue, link here (http://www.publicissue.gr/en/2768/pol-bar-145-june-2015/): 41% of "definitely approve", 16% of "rather approve".

Also to notice on that survey, 50% of the people think the government should "definitely not retreat" and 12% that it should "rather not retreat".

Luís Henrique

[FSL]

Of course they have. They plan to have as few votes as they can manage to without losing representation in the Parliament, so that they can keep the tribune without having to take any responsibility for what is coming in.

Oh, you meant a plan for Greece, or for Europe, or for the working class. No, sorry. The haven't any for these.

Luís Henrique

There is one great reason to vote no. To not allow Tsipras to escape, have him try to find a common ground between his inhumane proposals and the lender's inhumane proposals and have people like you shut up for good. Or at the very least think twice before you start with your nonsense.

But it's a good thing I'm not being vengeful and will instead do what I think is best for my -and my class' -material interests.

[FSL]

I am just wondering where the KKE is seeing the revolutionary potential in between now and the inevitable time of default resulting from a Greek refusal to negotiate or strike a bargain. Because they are taking some pretty damned awesome shooms and I definitely need to get me some as well.

The call for revolution is a platitude. Nobody will disagree that that is a solution but it isn't a realistic expectation on any short term.

Nor has there been any constructive work in the last fee years but rather every attempt to stop escalation of the struggle.

And even in the extreme unlikely situation that we just assume reality doesn't actually count and a revolution would take place...socialism in one country, especially one so tiny and isolated as Greece, is not only doomed to fail but Greece would be immediately plunged in isolation, thrown from the EU, and probably immediately invaded. It would still need to to ally rely on capitalist structures even if these events would not all occur.

Does that mean we should oppose a revolution...of course not. But perhaps you should start working towards it.
By working towards it ofcourse you mean:
1) Saying it's impossible
2) Saying that even if it were possible, it would result in everyone dying horrible horrible deaths.

A default seems to be a situation when those on top can't govern like they used to and those at the bottom won't be governed like they used to accept.
Anyway though, I'm wondering why not one of you came to comment on this thread: http://www.revleft.com/vb/syrizas-complete-proposal-t193433/index.html

You do seem to be interested. Maybe it is that you're having some trouble defending your sweetheart's decision to increase the sales tax on foodstuff and bus tickets by 10%? Maybe it's hard for you to explain exactly how this improves lives and exactly why I or anyone else should be supporting it?

[PhoenixAsh]

Well that is nice but you have repeatedly failed to actually address and describe what is that class interest in between now, the pending default and before revolution is actually going to happen. Not to mention how you see the logical outcome of a no vote and what this means for the working class in the reality of the situation...and how these consequences are in the class interests.

So it is empty

[FSL]

what is that class interest in between now, the pending default and before revolution is actually going to happen
There is no class interest, just endless rape. I guess you're fine with that but I'm not.

[PhoenixAsh]

I object to that wording.

But this again ignores the pretty obvious question how you see that the KKE intent with the vote is going to contribute to the class interests.

Because there is one reality: there won't be a revolution anytime soon. This leaves the dichotomy between a deal and a default and exit. The KKE position will invariably result in a default and exit. How does this benefit your class?

Because you have repeatedly argued against an exit because of the consequences for that very same class.
Then how is what the KKE is doing anything but symbolic posturing again finding itself along the right/conservative side of the political spectrum as it seems to regularly do on important issues.

[cyu]

When society is structured like a pyramid, it isn't just a good way for a small ruling class to rule millions of people at the bottom. Even if a few upstarts from the bottom manage to take the top of the pyramid, it isn't going to help as long as the structure of the pyramid is intact.

So how does the ruling class maintain control of a pyramid in which others have taken the top? By capitalizing on the single-point of failure at the top of the pyramid. As long as people still obey those at the top of the pyramid, then all that needs to be done is to bribe, blackmail, or intimidate those at the top, then the rest of society follows.

If there is no structural change, there is no societal change.

[FSL]

Ists.

Because there is one reality: there won't be a revolution anytime soon.
Fine, I'll leave you and and your kind here to talk about the impossibility of a revolution. There are more fun ways to waste one's time.

[PhoenixAsh]

Aha. So you actually think a revolution will happen in the next week? How does the KKE position on the referendum bring the revolution closer?


You CONSISTENTLY fail and downright refuse to address this.

[cyu]

The pyramid organizational structure is not designed for freedom of thought. Regardless of whether the media is controlled by supposed communists or capitalists, if it is structured like a pyramid, it designed for the authoritarian dissemination of indoctrination.

[Philosophos]

what about Greeks in general? how are they handling the news, and the situation with the possible exit from EU?
I know people had trouble withdrawing their money from banks in the last months, but from the pictures I see now people are lining up near banks still - are they getting their money?

We talk about the political situation all the fucking time, with missleading information about everything and everyone, we have no idea of what is going to happen because we don't listen to what people say, but what we want to listen and so many other stuff.

People are lining to get their money, they can now withdraw 60 euros per day and I heard about making it 20 euros per day cause lots and lots of people are massively withdrawing their money.

I need to start boxing or shooting or another violent hobby, because my temper is getting out of control :grin:

[PhoenixAsh]

The KKE needs to hurry up with their revolution because the deadline for default is in 15 minutes...

[The Feral Underclass]

It seems like Tsipras isn't as ballsy as I thought...

http://gu.com/p/4a9mq

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

About as ballsy as I expected. Burning down parliament is still on the table..

[human strike]

It seems like Tsipras isn't as ballsy as I thought...

http://gu.com/p/4a9mq

Unless he knew that offer would be rejected, which if I'm reading the situation correctly, it looks as if it has been.

EDIT: I mean if he's trying to make them look bad and intransigent it's working; German finance minister calls Greek government "untrustworthy" and says he hasn't even read their proposal.

[Luís Henrique]

Polls taken after the stall of the negotiations show "No" ahead, by large margins. Reuters on the subject, here (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/01/us-eurozone-greece-poll-idUSKCN0PB3HQ20150701).

According to the source, 57% to 30% immediately after the government calling the referendum, 54% to 33% after the banks closed.

(So now it appears that scientifically scientific science agrees with my Hegelian-mystic-metaphysic-dialectical approach... but let's see, it is still a long time until Sunday. Perhaps decades, from a strictly Leninist view.)

Luís Henrique

[human strike]

Fingers crossed Tsipras doesn't cancel the referendum.

[PhoenixAsh]

The EU just stated that the conditions of the referendum fall short of international standards. This means they are undermining its legitimacy already.

[Luís Henrique]

Unless he knew that offer would be rejected, which if I'm reading the situation correctly, it looks as if it has been.

EDIT: I mean if he's trying to make them look bad and intransigent it's working; German finance minister calls Greek government "untrustworthy" and says he hasn't even read their proposal.

It seems to be the intention, but considering the way it has been reported in the news, it looks like it was a quite unwise movement, and that it backfired.

But of course we don't know how that exactly impacted the political moods in Greece. I can only hope it doesn't put the OKI camp in disarray.

If it is not just a political manoever, however, and if they indeed cancel the referendum, they are finished. If they don't, and actually mean to capitulate, they will be probably overtaken by the voters.

Luís Henrique

[Sentinel]

ATHENS/BRUSSELS (Reuters) - A defiant Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras urged Greeks on Wednesday to reject an international bailout deal, wrecking any prospect of repairing broken relations with EU partners before a referendum on Sunday that may decide Greece's future in Europe.

Less than 24 hours after he wrote a conciliatory letter to creditors asking for a new bailout that would accept many of their terms, Tsipras abruptly switched back into combative mode in a television address.

Greece was being "blackmailed", he said, quashing talk that he might delay the vote, call it off or urge Greeks to vote yes.

Link to full Reuters article (http://mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSKBN0P40EO20150701)

[human strike]

Article in The Times today quotes a senior German politician, which I would guess may be Schaulbe, saying that Germany will never accept a deal as long as Tsipras and Varoufakis are in government. I think Germany are banking on regime change, but I doubt much of the rest of the EU is very committed to that idea, at least not right now. Maybe Tsipras has even managed to create a split in his opposition, certainly France and Germany aren't saying exactly the same thing anymore.

[PhoenixAsh]

Don't forget the power dynamics within the EU. Germany has a lot to lose here, more than any other country....and France knows that a Greek exit will have repercussions for German hegemony.

[Luís Henrique]

Here is a new poll by Public Issue (http://www.publicissue.gr/en/2810/greek-referendum-2015/).

It shows a quite close race - but as these pollsters seem to be a little bit skewed "to the left", I would fear that the "yes" vote has a small but real advantage as of now.

We will soon know.

But some results are quite disorienting:

49% (against 47%) think that voting "yes" is the best thing they can do.
52% (against 44%) think that if the "no" wins, Greece will be in a better position to negotiate.
59% (against 34%) think that if the "yes" wins, Greece won't come out of the crisis.
60% (against 35%) think that if the "no" wins there will be very negative consequences for Greece.

So, apparently voting "yes" is the best thing one can do atm, even though it won't take Greece out of the crisis, and voting "no" will have negative consequences, even though it would place Greece in a better negotiating position.

Seems irrationality has taken over.

Plus, 76% of KKE voters think that the idea that the "no" votes means the return of the drachma and the "yes" vote means remaining in the Euro is false. It is the highest proportion of this reasoning among supporters of all parties, higher than Syriza's (73%), ANEL's (70%) and Golden Dawn's (55%) indeed. So the precise point on which the KKE's leadership seems to hold a more consequential position than its rivals is exactly the point where the KKE electoral base is the most deluded.

Go figure.

Luís Henrique

[cyu]

When a leftist party is voted in, you'd expect that leftists have taken over the country. That is naïve. Has those who hold major influence over beliefs in the military changed? Has control over the mass media changed? If neither control over the weapons or control over ideas has changed, control over the society has no changed. It is only the appearance of change.

If the leftist party attempts to carry out what they had originally wanted to do, they are in for a rude awakening. Despite originally think they are now in power, they discover they are not. They run into the old power structure - the military and the mass media - and if there hasn't been much change in that, then both will actively work against the new government. Until both the military and mass media change, it is as if their voters didn't win the election at all.

[PhoenixAsh]

A no is very important for Greece and for Europe. It will break the political appearance of hegemony.

The polls are very close and the so called principled "no" by the KKE is playing into the hand of the European bourgeoisie and works in favor of austerity politics in Europe.

[human strike]

I think throughout this a major part in the Greek government's strategy has been to attempt to create splits in the Troika. It would seem they have had at least some partial success in this. Without getting into the reasons why, the IMF yesterday released a report stating that Greek debt is unsustainable without a cancellation of a big chunk of it and a 20 year grace period. I mean, this is surely what the Greek government has been arguing for, so this IMF report I think is quite significant and comes at a convenient time for Tsipras and Varoufakis. It allows them to show that Greek exit from the euro isn't inevitable if Greece votes oxi and makes that a more possible scenario than before. But I still don't think it's very likely. The Germans especially will be opposed to this and will probably even argue that it would violate certain EU treaties.

[Luís Henrique]

Greek courts have rejected an injunction to consider the referendum inconstitutional. The vote may proceed tomorrow. Or today, for those who live in the wrong side of the Atlantic.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Turnout is high, over 35% at half past the voting time.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Eight minutes to close.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Should be closing now.

Luís Henrique

[human strike]

Opinion polls (not exit polls but the closest we are gonna get) put oxi in the lead.

[The Feral Underclass]

It's looking like a no vote win.

[Sewer Socialist]

Exit polls:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CJKcVujUAAAVUav.png

[Luís Henrique]

About 20% of the vote counted, "No" leading 60-40.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

25% counted, and the "no" margin is widening.

Maybe EU officials last minute efforts backfired and were felt as undue foreign interference.

Thankfully Schauble is not a Japanese, so no harakiri tonight.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Official Greek ministery results here (http://ekloges.ypes.gr/current/e/public/index.html).

Luís Henrique

[Antiochus]

Why does it even matter which way the vote goes? If it goes the right way (yes) the polls will be proclaimed as 'fair and unbiased', if they go the wrong way they will be labelled as 'ridiculous and a sham'.

What do people think of the U.S's and the EU's conflicting interests in the way the debt crisis is handled in Greece? The U.S has benefited from a stronger comparative dollar for quite a bit.

[human strike]

Right now oxi is projected to win with 61%!

[Luís Henrique]

Half of the vote is counted, "no" ahead with 61,2%.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

60% counted, "no" at 61.3%.

Luís Henrique

[Rudolf]

Wonder what'll happen when the count's finished.


Not sure which outcome will be better for the working class in Greece and the rest of Europe although if i were in Greece i'd be tempted to vote no

[Sasha]

its clear that the debts will not be payed back because its just impossible, even the IMF already said so, its vitally important to the EU project that greece remains in the euro so i think there will a debt restruction deal eventually, its clear that the italy, spain and now also france are up for it. the only real obstacle will be whether Merkel and Rutte (the dutch PM) will find survival of the euro project more or less important than a possible challenge to their own political position.

[Bala Perdida]

There's a snapchat event for this. I don't know why I keep watching those. They're selective as fuck in depicting cities and events. They're also taking it to fsr, I think, broadcasting a politically tense event as if it were some 'fun-feel-good-get-together'.

[Tim Cornelis]

If there's gonna be a debt restructuring people will not trust 'the establishment' for the next few decades. #win

[blake 3:17]

61% No! effin right on! Much love to the people of Greece and much respect to Syriza

[blake 3:17]

No vote live: http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/05/greeces-eurozone-future-in-the-balance-as-referendum-gets-under-way--eu-euro-bailout-live

[Comrade Jacob]

95% counted still 61% for no.
It's all over!!!

[Thirsty Crow]

Why does it even matter which way the vote goes? If it goes the right way (yes) the polls will be proclaimed as 'fair and unbiased', if they go the wrong way they will be labelled as 'ridiculous and a sham'.

What do people think of the U.S's and the EU's conflicting interests in the way the debt crisis is handled in Greece? The U.S has benefited from a stronger comparative dollar for quite a bit.
It does matter for broader political reasons. With some room for a debate on the concrete measures proposed by the SYRIZA-IG government (and as I said in another thread, there's a good TPTG article on SYRIZA's ever more moderate stance with regard to class issues), still one might plausibly speak of a possible resurgence - depending on the international, Europe wide development - of social democracy different from the Third Way of yesteryear.

I'm not saying that in fact as a matter of optimistic judgement; it's just that, if a Reuters relayed warning of a German finance official (not sure who was it or about the institutional position; going to check that later) is anything to go by, a "Grexit" is off the table (horrific financial losses for Germany being the reason; now when I think about it it might have been the Bundesbank chief). And that means a rearrangement of negotiation positions and at least a possibility of a short term revitalization of actual social democracy.

For better or for worse, much the same as this being a huge victory for SYRIZA (which can't be doubted).

To be clear, I'm most worried about the actual viability of a potential social democratic European program that could be dreamed up on the wings of the referendum. Viability is of course constricted by the world market, by the global capitalist context.

[PhoenixAsh]

This is a potential step towards breaking the European hegemony and authority to dictate austerity measures and diminish negotiating capabilities with other countries that need financial support. It strengthens the anti-austerity movement across Europe.

The situation also deepened & widened the gap between France and Germany potentially worsening the German position within the EU and will probably lead towards a shift in power over the course of the next few years.

The EU and especially Germany are required to change their course IF Germany isn't prepared to suffer huge financial losses and that means the EU lost some serious face and political cloud on a global level.

[The Feral Underclass]

Varoufakis has resigned.

"I shall wear the creditors' loathing with pride."

http://gu.com/p/4ad5y

[Luís Henrique]

OPA!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=131&v=yvEIMrqZCjc

... so let's dance and party for now, for the economic night is dark, and full of terrors.

Luís Henrique

[soup]

So Varoufakis resigned and was replaced by Euclid Tsakalotos, anyone know what's he about?

[Sasha]

So Varoufakis resigned and was replaced by Euclid Tsakalotos, anyone know what's he about?

Economist, born in the Netherlands, went to a posh school together with another important negotiator, smart choice if you want a deal, but apparently also less left than Varoufakis.

[PhoenixAsh]

I was just about to say that the dismissal of Varoufakis was a gesture towards the EU and a signal to make an agreement and compromise.

It was an absolute necessity from that aspect as EU would probably not deal with Varoufakis again

[blake 3:17]

From Varoufakis' blog (found here: http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/ )


Minister No More!
Posted on July 6, 2015 by yanisv
The referendum of 5th July will stay in history as a unique moment when a small European nation rose up against debt-bondage.

Like all struggles for democratic rights, so too this historic rejection of the Eurogroup’s 25th June ultimatum comes with a large price tag attached. It is, therefore, essential that the great capital bestowed upon our government by the splendid NO vote be invested immediately into a YES to a proper resolution – to an agreement that involves debt restructuring, less austerity, redistribution in favour of the needy, and real reforms.

Soon after the announcement of the referendum results, I was made aware of a certain preference by some Eurogroup participants, and assorted ‘partners’, for my… ‘absence’ from its meetings; an idea that the Prime Minister judged to be potentially helpful to him in reaching an agreement. For this reason I am leaving the Ministry of Finance today.

I consider it my duty to help Alexis Tsipras exploit, as he sees fit, the capital that the Greek people granted us through yesterday’s referendum.

And I shall wear the creditors’ loathing with pride.

We of the Left know how to act collectively with no care for the privileges of office. I shall support fully Prime Minister Tsipras, the new Minister of Finance, and our government.

The superhuman effort to honour the brave people of Greece, and the famous OXI (NO) that they granted to democrats the world over, is just beginning.

[Islam Muslim Muhammad]

There goes the martyr Varoufakis. Good night, sweet prince.

youtube.com/watch?v=JxPj3GAYYZ0

[PhoenixAsh]

Do you seriously have the Shahada as your tendency?

[Luís Henrique]

From what I have read, Tsakalotos would be less flamboyant than Varoufakis... and also quite less Europhilic.

So probably, less accusations that the ECB is "terrorist", and probably less talks of how Greece will remain in Europe no matter what.

In the substance, if nothing else changes, he will be the guy who will issue IOUs when it becomes necessary to reopen Greek banks.

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

The EP debate about the Greek crisis is disgusting. Watching the live blog now. Tsipras was actually booed when he arrived in the parliament.

I hopped in after it already started and missed the speeches from the biggest factions. So far the attack on Greece and the Greek workers is undiminished.

It is a sad day when people as Farage and LePen voice the most reasonable opinions.


* The ruling opinion is that Greece offers too little proposals and alternatives (and yes...the Greeks have been accused of egocentrism)

* Farage and Le Pen accuse the EU of anti democratic fear mongering and enforcing a European political union against the will of the people. Greece has been humiliated and tricked for financial gain and should realize that the EU will not help them because that would mean they need to help other countries. Both argue for dissolution of the union.

* The Greens and some other EP speakers argue that Greece is only looking at their own situation and fail to extrapolate a comprehensive policy that encompasses a broader EU situation of poverty. (wtf?)

* A lot of criticism against Weber from the left and the right EP's after he tried to argue the replacement of the Greek government with technocrats.

[PhoenixAsh]

Unconditional support from the Irish EP's for Greece and support from the SNP

There is lot of criticism of the EU and against Germany from individual EP's who say that Weber and co. lied to their electorate when they raised to finances for Greece...assuring there would never be a Grexit.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well that was...enlightening. After spending the afternoon and morning listening to the speeches in the EP I am more and more convinced that the EU needs to be disbanded and rebuild...and that a live coverage with voice over translations are confusing and annoying.

There was also a notable disparity between what was said in the debate and what was reported to have been said in the liveblogs...as Farage and LePen's words and arguments were reduced and the Euro communists were completely ignored.

It was entirely confusing who made what arguments as both faction leadership, representatives of parties in the factions and individual EPs gave speeches.

Here is a key overview of the arguments:

The majority on the right (liberals, Christian democrats, social democrats and greens) say that Greece has an obligation to make constructive alternative proposals and failed. They accuse Tspiras of playing the democrat to save his political legacy and does not seem interested in a resolution of the crisis. They state that the Greek government has failed to implement economic reforms and squander the financial support thus far received by Greece and that he lacks courage to lead his people through tough times by making the tough decisions necessary.

The right part of this group also explicitly emphasize that Greece is to blame entirely and is making the EU responsible for its own failures while not taking responsibility themselves. They underline that Greece has a moral obligation to repay it's debts and that were Greece a company it would already have been placed under technocratic control. They also state that Greece intentionally sabotaged the negotiations and we're dishonestly flip flopping. They openly speculate if Greece should stay in the EU and make the familiar threats. There are offers from several EP's and ministers to come to Greece and tell them what to do and show them how it is done.

The entire group also makes the argument that Greece is being egocentric and looking to its own needs and forgetting that citizens in the EU paid heavy taxes to support Greece and that these citizens have the right to demand the efforts of the Greeks to see that support returned.

It is important to note here that representatives from other countries like Bulgaria specifically argued that the situation in Greece does not warrant the Greek position considering there are countries that are worse off and we're the population is even poorer than currently in Greece.

Portugal, Italy, Spain and representatives of Ireland from within the center right factions argue that when they were in an economic downpour they were ready and willing to make the tough sacrifices and didn't blame Europe but sought solutions in restructuring and reducing spending.

To add to this confusing range of arguments a lot of the social democrats and greens do however reject the blame game and reject the majority position seeking to blame Greece rather than having an open and honest dialogue but instead focusing on condemning the style of government while ignoring the importance of democratic principles like a referendum. They also advocate a humane solution and actively seek a compromise and partial debt restructuring/waver in order to keep Greece in the EU

(***)

The far right had an entirely different position. They stated that the EU had strong armed Greece into the EU in the first place. That the EU was a financial unity rather than a political one and that it lacked a democratic legitimate basis for such claims. They argued that the EU is a financial interest group that places banks and financial institutions over people and using threats to blackmail it's member nations. They severely denounced the anti democratic interference of Junker and Weber in the democratic governance of Greece. They argued that the crisis is caused by cultural and economic interests of Germany as opposed to the of the Greeks. That the Troika is out to humiliate Greece and make it an example to punish them for desenting and refusal to submit to EU control. They also argued that Greece should never have been part of the EU experiment and that it's membership of the EU has no only created but worsened their economic position. They stated that it should be clear by now that the EU would never really support Greece and are willfully and knowingly trying to destroy the country (refering to the expansion of the national debt from 120 to 180% of GDP) as well as the IMF report which stated that the current situation would be unsustainable.

They argued that Greece should leave the EU and Euro and reject further negotiations with the EU.

(***)

The Euro communists blatantly rejected the anti Marxist rhetoric. Blamed capitalism. Denounced the EU as an undemocratic beneficiary to the capitalist system praised Greece for its courage and stressed the need for unrestricted economic support. They also stressed that the EU could only function with true democratic control by the masses and the rejection of capitalism and that the current crisis was in fact the result of Capitalism.

(***)

It was highly confusing, sickening and an emotionally fuelled debate.

What was unsurprising is that Tsiparis of course stated that he would come with an honest proposal that would show the willingness of the Greek government to find a solution. They also proposed to retstructure the tax system and pensions. He started strong but ended weak.

[Luís Henrique]

US Treasury secretary Jack Lew appears to have thrown his weight behind calls for a Greek debt restructuring.

Speaking at the Brookings Institution in Washington DC, Lew warned that Greece’s debts are not sustainable, echoing the IMF’s concerns. He pointed to a “deep” reluctance among some European countries to face up to the issue, though.

Lew also (again) urged both sides to reach a deal, warning that Greece would face a painful adjustment if it left the euro.

We simply don’t need the “geopolitical mistake” of a Greek meltdown, he added (perhaps looking nervously towards Moscow?)

Yeah, it seems that the Germans are failing to realise the political consequences of their stuborness.

Luís Henrique

[cyu]

I wouldn't really say "the Germans" but rather the international ruling class - including officials at the IMF and ECB and my co-workers at the NSA ;) - they tell German politicians and media figures what to say, who then pass on the message to indoctrinate the rest of the German population.

[Luís Henrique]

I wouldn't really say "the Germans" but rather the international ruling class - including officials at the IMF and ECB and my co-workers at the NSA ;) - they tell German politicians and media figures what to say, who then pass on the message to indoctrinate the rest of the German population.

Obviously you people in the NSA forgot to tell the Treasury Secretary what he should say... :D

Luís Henrique

[human strike]

Fascinating interview with a Greek government insider involved in the "negotiations" explaining how the creditors were never interested in negotiation and have instead engaged in an illegal campaign of economic terrorism which I highly recommend reading: http://www.mediapart.fr/en/journal/international/080715/we-underestimated-their-power-greek-government-insider-lifts-lid-five-months-humiliation-and-blackm

[The Feral Underclass]

What a crock of shit: http://gu.com/p/4agkj?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

[human strike]

Will this actually be passed by the Greek parliament? Surely it'll face a hell of a lot of opposition?

[Futility Personified]

I can see it going through. The more bland elements of syriza with pasok and new democracy vs radical parts of syriza, anel and GD, assuming the yes / no dichotomy of the referendum is still in affect.

[cyu]

What would happen to capitalism if debtors don't pay their debts?

That's right - what *would* happen to capitalism?

[human strike]

I can see it going through. The more bland elements of syriza with pasok and new democracy vs radical parts of syriza, anel and GD, assuming the yes / no dichotomy of the referendum is still in affect.

I expect it'll pass too, but it'll be interesting to see what happens within Syriza. I wonder if Tsipras will resign after.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So what exactly was the point of the referendum? Or electing them to power in the first place?

[PhoenixAsh]

How could there have been any doubt this would happen? Haven't people been paying attention?

The Greek government is playing a game of political chicken while in a position of weakness while they want to stay inside the Euro. The gamble is aimed at debt removal rather than avoiding austerity that impacts the Greek population on the short term. The referendum was necessary for strengthening their position but NOT meant as a breaking point. It was used as leverage.

The measures now proposed will impact pensions and taxes for the middle to high income groups. These are long term measures that will have an impact after the next elections. While debt wavers and loan extensions will have a direct impact on spending capabilities.

SYRIZA is NOT a revolutionary party. It has revolutionary elements within the party....but by and large SYRIZA is working within the system.

If they weren't they would have used unilateral debt cancellation.

[cyu]

http://rlv.zcache.com/when_fascism_comes_to_america_it_will_be_wrapp_pos ter-r38cc960c5bab4a3590eaecda792736db_wad_8byvr_512.jp g



When fascism comes to Germany, it will be hawking the EU and waving the euro... and the French will be following the Germans as junior partner in their new project.

[cyu]

Whenever any group is oppressed, yes there will be rebels among them, but there will also be collaborators, who say "Well, if we were nicer to our oppressors, maybe they won't be so mean to us."

Also happens in cases of domestic violence and abuse.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

No I would say nothing is obvious other than the perpetual fraud against the Greek people. The Syriza-apologism changes tune after each act, all the while maintaining that "this was always part of the plan!". If its always part of the plan how come you lot never see it coming? After class today I'm going to see how many embarrassing statements I can dig out of the post-election thread from January.

[Tim Cornelis]

http://rlv.zcache.com/when_fascism_comes_to_america_it_will_be_wrapp_pos ter-r38cc960c5bab4a3590eaecda792736db_wad_8byvr_512.jp g



When fascism comes to Germany, it will be hawking the EU and waving the euro... and the French will be following the Germans as junior partner in their new project.

Ugh, please stop yelling "fascism!" at everything vaguely authoritarian and right-wing.

[PhoenixAsh]

No I would say nothing is obvious other than the perpetual fraud against the Greek people. The Syriza-apologism changes tune after each act, all the while maintaining that "this was always part of the plan!". If its always part of the plan how come you lot never see it coming? After class today I'm going to see how many embarrassing statements I can dig out of the post-election thread from January.

The statements you will see from me is that SYRIZA has a potential to radicalize but that the refusal of the KKE to support SYRIZA would effectively mean it is pushed to the right.

That the election of SYRIZA was possible because there is no trustworthy revolutionary alternative (and yes....that means that the KKE is not a revolutionary alternative that can be trusted on a broad platform) but that it was indicative of a growing political awareness amd an awakening consciousness of broad swats of people that an alternative was necessary.

Further more you will see that I argued that in any case SYRIZA is (and still is) a better alternative for the people than ND/PASOK and other parties within an electoral process.

So save yourself the trouble.

SYRIZA plays in a bourgeois playground and seeks the boundaries of that playground to find the most beneficial way to stay in that playground. A deal was always the conclusion...this is not a surprise.

The article posted makes if appear as if SYRIZA totally caved to EU demands. They did not. Several short term direct impact measures are not featured in the current proposal. That proposal however is a proposal and requires a debt restructuring as well as loan extension offers, better terms. This will be decided on Sunday.

In the meantime there is a battle within SYRIZA. Greek Parliament is going to vote on the proposals today. Two SYRIZA minsters are descenting and the more radical members of SYRIZA are an unknown factor.

So wait till the conclusion. To see what happens. In the meantime ANY deal is obviously one that the EU finds acceptable. And that means that there will be austerities no matter what.

[cyu]

It's not fascism until Jews or Greeks start dying ;)

[Sasha]

It's not fascism until Jews or Greeks start dying ;)


no, history has shown that jews and greeks can die perfectly well under everything from social democracy to monarchism.
and fascism can very well exist without greeks and jews dying too, admittedly they where not very nice to the greeks but during WW2 Italy was the safest place to live in axis occupied europe for jews.
stop being a tool

[Sasha]

The left forum within Syriza reportedly rejected the proposal from tsipras, 2 ministers and between 10 and 40 MPs are expected to vote NO, Tsipras called for unity and said "either we go forward together or we go down together" but i wouldnt be suprised if he courts drops the left platform and the independent greeks coalition partner in favor of a centrist coalition with pasok and ND

[cyu]

As goes Obama and the TPP...

The top of the pyramid is always easier to go after, simply because there's less of them.

[cyu]

An interesting thought experiment:

If you wanted to establish the Fourth Reich, how would you do it? How similar would it be to the EU?

Of course, if it were idiot neo-Nazis, they'd take the words of Hitler like Gospel, and try to copy him word for word. But even Hitler was trying to do something different from the "First" and "Second" Reichs. Let's say you weren't a neo-Nazi, but were instead interested in geopolitics and a Project for a New German Century. Could you simply rename the EU to the Fourth Reich, and there would be no other difference?

Well, I can think of one difference. The Fourth Reich wouldn't have American fingers in the pie. On the other hand, the EU isn't supposed to have American fingers in the pie either - at least in theory. But that's not how geopolitics works.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So my own claims were that GD would grow in popularity after Syriza revealed it's true colors. Come to think of it I haven't heard a word about GD during this fiasco, what are their numbers looking like? Have they increased or decreased in popularity since January? This is still true though:

I don't want to wallow in cynicism, but some of you should be old enough to know better by now..


The syriza election thread isn't the good one I guess, as it's only 4 pages long. There was like a 20 page thread before that but I don't remember what it was called. Seems like the revolutionary marxist groupies were the pro-syriza folks and not many of them post anymore.

[Sasha]

So my own claims were that GD would grow in popularity after Syriza revealed it's true colors. Come to think of it I haven't heard a word about GD during this fiasco, what are their numbers looking like? Have they increased or decreased in popularity since January?

i would think that the potential support has only increased, but the party is dead in the water for now, all the leaders are in jail, the infrastructure is in shambles, i would worry more about former supporters in the military and police now joining the (extreme) right wing of ND than for GD itself.

[PhoenixAsh]

GD polls sho a rapid decline in match from 17 seats to 13. After a March this decline steadily grew back. At the end of June they were back at 17 seats. There have been no polls yet (as far as I can see) over July.

The KKE suffered the same decline in April (our of the top of my head) from 15 to 12 and are now back at 15.

ANEL is now at -1 and PASOK at -2
ND at -24 and SYRIZA at +27.

Again....These were the numbers at the end of June.

[cyu]

I would imagine that the more you paint the Greek people as the new Jews that Germans like to pick on, the more GD would fade.

[Sasha]

Ugh, cant you just go away...

[cyu]

The dehumanization of Greeks has already begun in the media, just like they did to the Jews. Compare attitudes to Greeks outside Greece, to attitudes to Jews among non-Jews before WWII.

[Sasha]

What do you know, you live a. in frigging seatle an b. You know next to nothing about the shoah and c. you are several sandwiches short of a picnic in general...
Go LARP on some conspiracy cespit and stop messing up each and every thread on this forum with your crap.

[cyu]

First you decide on foreign policy, then you feed propaganda to your contacts in the media, who bring you support among the general population. Once you have enough support from the general population, you can carry out the foreign policy as if you were doing "the will of the people".

For example, if you want to maintain Greece as a colony for debt slaves, first you have the media paint them as lazy do-nothings who need to work harder - as people less human than our upstanding capitalists. After your people have a negative view of Greeks, then it's easy to overcome any sympathy for Greeks in poverty, and impose any harsh measure on them as you please. And indeed, many non-Greeks currently do see Greeks as lazy do-nothings.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That happens constantly and independently of fascism, its not unique to greece, germany or fascism.

[cyu]

True - leftists also paint capitalists as greedy heartless bastards - which also makes them easy to execute during revolution.

Not that I'm endorsing that ;)

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Cyu are you high?

[cyu]

Capitalists were executed during both the Chinese communist revolution and the Spanish Civil War. That too happens after dehumanization.

[human strike]

Comment piece by Varoufakis on the Guardian website: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jul/10/germany-greek-pain-debt-relief-grexit

"Based on months of negotiation, my conviction is that the German finance minister wants Greece to be pushed out of the single currency to put the fear of God into the French and have them accept his model of a disciplinarian eurozone."

[Futility Personified]

Let me dip into my bag of feel-good consolation phrases.

"What can we learn from this?"
"It only shows we have to organize"
"Reformism is a dead end"
"Only revolution will solve this"

I have felt that the Greek situation would provide an answer for one of the dominant questions of our time, namely, is the EU worthwhile for a socialist to consider as worthy of protection, or at least membership. This proves it is a resounding no.

But it would be a hell of a contradiction, wouldn't it, a victory in the mother of all capitalist parliaments?

A lot of the time, just because it seems psychologically necessary, cognitive dissonance is suppressed when this type of thing hits the news. I will admit I was more invested in Syriza than my measly postcount will attribute to, namely because it was an interesting buzzword of optimism in the west, ground zero of capitalist policy failure.

But when we argue for the abolition of the state, of participation in bougie politics as a dirty thing, akin to picking up a defiled contraceptive with your fresh sausage roll, there is a contradiction. Abolition of nationalism is something we just have to aim for, and the EU seemed like a viable project to do so. Destruction of borders should be.... our bag, man. But this European project is at least now, nakedly neoliberal. Clothes dangling out the window neoliberal. Don't turn on your webcam neoliberal. I'm not sure if reactionary is the most appropriate word, because fascism as I understand it doesn't seem to be currently compatible with the EU.

A grexit would have been interesting, it would have produced results that I many of us could not have forseen. It could also have resulted in absolute catastrophe for the citizens of Greece, namely the working class. If I had to make that decision, I think the psychological pressure would've been too much, and I would've done what has been done today. Instead the devil we know has come through. Shit....

My two eurocents are that firstly, the lines between capitalist realpolitik and revolutionary progress must be considered more closely. Of course, given that they are in complete opposition, this is probably impossible. Second, the rule of a bourgeois parliament is slave to bourgeois mechanisms, but this I think all of us knew from the start (even if we pretended not to). Third, where is the next real contest of struggle going to occur? Off the top of my head would be the Kurdish situation, but what would be feasible and possible to preserve in the face of the onslaught of strengthened global capital?

I have a certainty in my soul that capitalism will be destroyed, but if anything will precede it is beyond me. Business as normal is resuming service. To completely immolate the financial entity of a nation state seems the most feasible thing to do in the circumstances, but it means completely destroying all the gains of workers past, plus an absolutely uncertain future. Perhaps in 20 years time, when the opportunity arises again from another prolonged crisis, are we going to reshuffle the board, move the pieces as they are expected, or set fire to the board, the other player, and do a massive shite on the table?

I'm getting all abstract because I feel an intense mixture of things. I'm also pissed, but that is by the by. I guess one point towards the accelerationist camp is that people still have things to lose in Greece, an aging population without state support sounds like an absolute nightmare, and even from a utilitarian perspective, slightly terrifying. Lots of old folks would perish before their relative times. Like I said, i'm amix with different feelings, and i'll keep my attention on this thread to see what some of y'all have to say, because the most feasible looking route has gone completely, but not unexpectedly, right down the swanney.

[human strike]

Parliament passing this doesn't make it a done deal. If you recall. Tsipras "capitulated" last week too. I'm not saying this will happen, but there is still a genuine likelihood that the Troika won't offer any serious debt relief making a deal impossible (talks may even break down before any discussion of debt relief). I mean, this Greek proposal isn't all that different from previous ones. Are Schauble and Dijsselboem going to change their minds just because there was a referendum? They didn't strangle the Greek economy this last week just to give Greece a debt haircut. I dunno, perhaps things have persuaded them, perhaps pressure has been applied enough from elsewhere, perhaps they're making everyone shit themselves and they will make a deal in the end. But their strategy, according to some, has been consistent with forcing Greece out of the Euro. I dunno, I'm thinking aloud, but let's see what happens today and tomorrow. I think it could still go either way.

[human strike]

You can argue that the referendum bolstered the Greek government making it difficult for the EU to force regime change and that makes a deal more likely, but I don't think they were actually that vulnerable and frankly the government is probably at its weakest point now after the rebellion of some Syriza MPs yesterday.

[soup]

#ThisIsACoup is trending.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

A national unity government is part of the plan right?

[Sasha]

Intresting read; http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/yanis-varoufakis-full-transcript-our-battle-save-greece

[Sasha]

Riot police is blockading people from entering the polytechnic where anarchist called an popular assembly tonight....

general strike called by the public sector unions and others for the day of the vote.

[blake 3:17]

Greek prime minister Alexis Tsipras hailed the "message of democracy" his country had sent in reaching a bailout agreement with its creditors, but already it's become clear not everyone back home shares his view.

Just as he touched down in Athens to round up the votes needed to pass required reforms into law, Greece's civil servants' union called for a 24-hour strike on Wednesday when their country's parliament votes on the measures needed to receive a crucial third bailout.

The union, Adedy, wants workers to protest the terms of the agreement Tsipras negotiated with Greece's creditors this weekend.

It has joined a rally organised by the extreme-left group Antarsya taking place in the main square before parliament this evening to voice opposition to the reforms demanded by Greece's creditors in the bailout package.

Panos Kammenos, the leader of Syriza's junior coalition partner the Independent Greeks has also condemned the agreement. The head of the right-wing party described the proposed deal as a German-led "coup".

The release of the bailout money - thought to be worth up to €86bn (£61bn) over three years - is conditional on Greek passing a number of reforms into law by Wednesday and scaling up its privatisation programme.

Story: http://www.cityam.com/220045/greek-pm-alexis-tsipras-faces-backlash-proposed-bailout-package-civil-servants-union-calls-24

[A.J.]

It has thus transpired that the KKE has been been fully vindicated in it's call to disrupt the referendum of 5th of July(spoiling ballot papers, abstaining etc.)


This 'Syriza' rag-bag of opportunists(eurocommunists, trotskyites, maoists etc.) have exposed themselves as essentially that - opportunists!


Glory to the KKE!

[cyu]

I suspect if KKE were in power, the roles would just be reversed. Syriza would be outside throwing rocks at the windows, and KKE would be inside with the IMF pointing a gun to their leaders' heads.

[Luís Henrique]

I suspect if KKE were in power, the roles would just be reversed. Syriza would be outside throwing rocks at the windows, and KKE would be inside with the IMF pointing a gun to their leaders' heads.

Well, of course. This being the main reason that the KKE is refusing to take any responsibilities in the situation. As long as it remains an oppositional force, it can throw rocks at windows (and pretend that this is a revolutionary activity).

The only problem, for them, is how to dose the things so that they remain in opposition, but keep a dozen seats in parliament.

****************************

The main problem with the left is that it views political parties as masters of the working class, not as instruments of the class.

Syriza has been the most useful instrument for the growth of political consciousness of Greek workers up to now. In capitulating, it ceases to be that. It is a normal process, that cannot be replaced by issuing some magical decree that the KKE is the best instrument now - and much less that it has been that instrument in the last five years.

In the end, what most leftists think (fear? hope for?) is that the new deal between Greece and the EU will somehow normalise things, converting Syriza into a traditional social-democratic party - to which the similarly traditional "communist" party can play the same role as CPs used to play in the 50's and 60's in Europe.

That is completely misleading, though.

The new deal between Greece and the EU is either significantly different from those that have been negotiated by ND and PASOK, or, much more likely, it is basically the same.

If it is significantly different, then we can expect the EU to consistently try to reverse it, because it would be a bad deal for the central countries in Europe. And because it would put in immeditate risk the accommodating ruling parties in the rest of the European periphery, for it would give a clear sign to the people in those countries that rebellion pays, or pays more than submission in any case.

If it is basically the same, it will produce basically the same results as the previous deals negotiated by PASOK and ND: more unemployment, deeper recession, further disintegration of the Greek economy.

And if Greece continues its path of economic decline as it seems poised to, then Syriza will have destroyed itself; it will be torn apart into its constituents, their government will fall, Synaspismos will run in new elections as the party that has betrayed the movement, and will be defeated, either by the left of Syriza, or by Golden Dawn, or by the pro-austerity forces combined. In the first case, it will be a "rinse, repeat" situation, until some other outcome is reached. In the second case, Greece will be purposefully punished for voting for nazis, and the EU will have a convenient face-saving pretext to throw Greece and the Greeks through the window. In the third case, we will again have a "rinse, repeat" situation, just going through a wider loop.

Or it could be that the KKE wins the next elections, and implements the dictatorship of the proletariat in Greece through electoral victory. In which case, free plush bunnies for everybody ensue.

Luís Henrique

[Rafiq]

Glory to the KKE!

The KKE carries more blame than Syriza, in that had they entered into a fucking coalition in the first place with them, Syriza wouldn't have had to align itself with ANEL and - this is a stretch - one could imagine a KKE representative being appointed as the defense minister. The KKE, being a politically worthless party, is clearly pro-Russian, and therefore reactionary. But a loud-mouthed, good for nothing, phrase mongering party like the KKE could be just what the Syriza government needs:

Practically, if the KKE was in this position, this would add further leverage to be used against Brussels in negotiating a bailout agreement, and it could very well add onto the table the certainty of Greece's presence in NATO. A "Grexit", if you will, could be coupled with threats to leave NATO. They might know very well that Syriza is committed to Europe, but the KKE could be just enough to scare the shit out of them. If this wouldn't be enough for Merkel, the EU leaders would certainly be pressured by the Americans to do everything they can to to ensure confidence that Greece doesn't become Russia's new Mediterranean vassal state.

The reality, however, is not simply that KKE is "just" an oppositional party. If it was purely an oppositional party, then their only demands would be the groundless demand for a "proletarian dictatorship" or something else they know well to be presently impossible. It is a reactionary party whose only affirmative, practical consequence of realizing its immediate goals (like leaving the EU) would be capitulation to Russian imperial prerogatives. What else could leaving the Eurozone, and NATO mean for Greece?

[Hermes]

Do you really think that the outcome would have been any different, regardless of whether or not the KKE had been in lockstep with SYRIZA the entire time?

I find it difficult to believe that any amount of leverage, including a KKE minister of defense, would have emboldened SYRIZA. Even a popular referendum against the deal only lead to capitulation the next weekend.

I don't know.

[lutraphile]

The KKE carries more blame than Syriza, in that had they entered into a fucking coalition in the first place with them, Syriza wouldn't have had to align itself with ANEL and - this is a stretch - one could imagine a KKE representative being appointed as the defense minister. The KKE, being a politically worthless party, is clearly pro-Russian, and therefore reactionary. But a loud-mouthed, good for nothing, phrase mongering party like the KKE could be just what the Syriza government needs:

Practically, if the KKE was in this position, this would add further leverage to be used against Brussels in negotiating a bailout agreement, and it could very well add onto the table the certainty of Greece's presence in NATO. A "Grexit", if you will, could be coupled with threats to leave NATO. They might know very well that Syriza is committed to Europe, but the KKE could be just enough to scare the shit out of them. If this wouldn't be enough for Merkel, the EU leaders would certainly be pressured by the Americans to do everything they can to to ensure confidence that Greece doesn't become Russia's new Mediterranean vassal state.

The reality, however, is not simply that KKE is "just" an oppositional party. If it was purely an oppositional party, then their only demands would be the groundless demand for a "proletarian dictatorship" or something else they know well to be presently impossible. It is a reactionary party whose only affirmative, practical consequence of realizing its immediate goals (like leaving the EU) would be capitulation to Russian imperial prerogatives. What else could leaving the Eurozone, and NATO mean for Greece?

I quite agree. The KKE could have been a real influence, maybe got a top government spot. Instead, they elected to remain the world's most juvenile protest party (how you work out that not voting against an austerity measure is the right call because there could still be a different austerity measure, I'm not sure). Still, perhaps some of the left of Syria will jump ship, the KKE will come to its senses, and something good could come of this.

[Sasha]

They wont jump ship to the KKE though, maybe ANTARYSA

[Tim Cornelis]

Am I the only one that supports the KKE's semi-abstentionist (or whatever we can call it) position? A bourgeois government overseeing a capitalist economy will have to facilitate capital, and managing or facilitating capital, obviously, cannot be done on humanitarian grounds.


It has thus transpired that the KKE has been been fully vindicated in it's call to disrupt the referendum of 5th of July(spoiling ballot papers, abstaining etc.)

its*

it's = it is.
its = if it can be replaced with 'her' or 'his' and it's still logical.

(I'm an asshole)

[cyu]

Do you really think that the outcome would have been any different, regardless of whether or not the KKE had been in lockstep with SYRIZA the entire time?

Yeah, if KKE backed Syriza, I suspect we'd have basically the same deal right now, except it would be *shudder* a right-wing party throwing rocks at the windows (like in France).

The only way it would be different is if a left-wing sweep didn't just encompass parliamentary positions, but the media and military as well.

[FSL]

Well, of course.
Just lol. You and a bunch of others here are complete jokes. You praise the one and only true Messiah of the left and the workers, with the unique concept of making capitalism great for everyone, and when things go just a bit differently than what you expected the story changes to "well, it would be like that with everyone, wouldn't it?"

No, it wouldn't, because not everyone is an enemy of the workers like the hopeless social democrats that swarm this place. Not everyone is as dumb and thickheaded, not everyone is allergic to self-criticism, not everyone is oblivious to the lessons of history.

[BIXX]

Am I the only one that supports the KKE's semi-abstentionist (or whatever we can call it) position? A bourgeois government overseeing a capitalist economy will have to facilitate capital, and managing or facilitating capital, obviously, cannot be done on humanitarian grounds.

Says the person who claims they see no problem with being a manager.

[PhoenixAsh]

Just lol. You and a bunch of others here are complete jokes. You praise the one and only true Messiah of the left and the workers, with the unique concept of making capitalism great for everyone, and when things go just a bit differently than what you expected the story changes to "well, it would be like that with everyone, wouldn't it?"

No, it wouldn't, because not everyone is an enemy of the workers like the hopeless social democrats that swarm this place. Not everyone is as dumb and thickheaded, not everyone is allergic to self-criticism, not everyone is oblivious to the lessons of history.

Now what,

other than handing over workers and revolutionaries to the cops/ selling out the working class over the course of its history/ directly betrayed the revolutionary cause on several occasions by collaborating with the bourgeois/ and running on a parliamentary platform based on isolationism/ preventing a revolutionary sentiment from coming into existence/ protecting austerity parliament,

has the KKE done lately? Waved some nice flags?

[BIXX]

Post that enough times, PA? lol

[Luís Henrique]

the world's most juvenile protest party

That's not the KKE, sorry. The KKE would be this wonder of nature, the most senile protest party in the world.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

You praise the one and only true Messiah of the left and the workers,

So where have I, or anyone else, praised anyone as a Messiah, not to talk about an "only true" one?


with the unique concept of making capitalism great for everyone, and when things go just a bit differently than what you expected the story changes to "well, it would be like that with everyone, wouldn't it?"

Nice try, but no. There isn't such thing as "capitalism great for everyone", except perhaps in the calculations of the KKE and its strategy of increasing their vote by 1% each election until getting a majority.

Face it, the KKE would have capitulated much earlier and more easily than Syriza. Wait, it has capitulated earlier and more easily than Syriza - it was just a much more low profile kind of capitulation.


No, it wouldn't, because not everyone is an enemy of the workers like the hopeless social democrats that swarm this place. Not everyone is as dumb and thickheaded, not everyone is allergic to self-criticism, not everyone is oblivious to the lessons of history.

That's precious. An adept of the world's most dumb and thickheaded party, of the world's less open to self-criticism party, of the world's most oblivious to lessons of history party... lecturing us on dumb-and-thickheadedness, self-criticism, and lessons of history.

And it is me and others who are a joke?

Luís Henrique

[cyu]

The first mistake made by any would-be revolutionary is assuming that someone else will be the messiah.

[lutraphile]

They wont jump ship to the KKE though, maybe ANTARYSA
Yeah, maybe. I think KKE might be the default just by being the bigger more radical party, but they might have burned too many bridges. I rather like ANTARYSA (indeed, I'd probably vote for them if Greek) but I'm a little skeptical of how stable a coalition of parties as radically different as theirs could be if they ever actually got power. Would be interested in seeing them included in some polls soon though.

[The Feral Underclass]

Didn't the KKE form a coalition with New Democracy once?

[Tim Cornelis]

Again with the "defending of parliament"? There was no risk of it being stormed, therefore it wasn't protected. The KKE defended its demonstration.
And KKE was a part of a national unity government once with New Democracy but has repudiated this, and now has, what seems to me like a sensible position that it will not enter into any coalition basically.


Says the person who claims they see no problem with being a manager.

Says the hipster nihilist edgelord.

I have no illusions about doing any wage-labour on humanitarian grounds.

[PhoenixAsh]

Again with the "defending of parliament"? There was no risk of it being stormed, therefore it wasn't protected. The KKE defended its demonstration.


Tim,

You are wrong.

I wrote about it extensively at the time when it happened. The KKE was not protecting its own demonstration because people simply attacked the KKE out of thin air. The KKE was refusing to let people through and used violence to bar them from the square and from the area around the parliament.

They barred them from the square at side streets leading up to the square which were cut off by KKE armed thugs with their helmets. My friends were there and my girlfriend at the time got seriously injured by one of them when their group wanted to get through.

They wanted to get through because several groups were planning to actually storm the parliament to disrupt the vote on the austerity packages and the KKE wouldn't let that happen because it would disturb their nice little peaceful flag waving parade.

And the Riot police stood back to let the KKE do their work for them. ONLY after extensive pleading from PAME and KKE officials, who were filmed talking with the Riot police as well as handing over protesters who they caught, did the riot police interfere and protected the KKE demonstration.

[Thirsty Crow]

Am I the only one that supports the KKE's semi-abstentionist (or whatever we can call it) position? A bourgeois government overseeing a capitalist economy will have to facilitate capital, and managing or facilitating capital, obviously, cannot be done on humanitarian grounds.

Of course you aren't, Tim. People harping on and on about how KKE should have entered the government are missing out on a) the fact that the crisis can't be solved in Greece, b) that political independence for communists mean intransigent opposition to this social order, and c) myriad defects of KKE other than refusing to be a part of the government.

[Tim Cornelis]

"planning to storm parliament" which is bull. 'Storming' = standing in front of the gate and hurling and missing riot police behind it. but whatever. people are so biased against the KKE they lost sight of reality.

[Sasha]

however feasible the indignations and anarchist plans where or not, fact is that the KKE and the riotpolice had a deal, the riotpolice would not interfere with and be overtly present at the PAME demo if they would police themselves AND anyone else trying to anything more than stand around listing to politburo speeches. So the KKE policed, with violence, other leftists. "protecting their own PAME demo" equaled doing the riotpolice work in this instance. which makes them reactionary traitors, i have no problem being biased to reactionary traitors.

[Sasha]

by your argument the peacebrigade pointing out a windowsmasher at some summit to the cops is also "just protecting their demo".
protecting "your" demo can line up perfectly with being a class traitor and a snitch.

[human strike]

Well, the IMF are saying that Greece has to have debt relief and a 30 year grace period, hinting that it won't involve itself in this deal otherwise. Germany of course has insisted the IMF be involved but won't support these IMF conclusions. It will be interesting to see what happens with that.

[Tim Cornelis]

Had the situation been the same but the roles reversed anarchists would just as vocally supported the anarchists. The Stalinists would be the reactionaries trying to break up an anarchist demonstration while the anarchists had defended themselves. Okay, I had forgotten about the collaboration with cops because the emphasis always is on them supposedly "defending parliament", which is categorically nonsense. (There was no danger from the angry mob, because the mob has no means to realistically threaten parliament and politicians.) But a 'fact' that there was a deal with police? A roarmag article (siding more with the anarchist narrative) says "Carrying red flag sticks and wearing helmets, the unionists formed a human chain around Parliament. In the process, however, they ended up defending the state from the angry mob outside. Rather than turning their anger at the politicians, they protected them. Riot police were therefore happy to sit back and let the two sides fight each other."

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Am I the only one that supports the KKE's semi-abstentionist (or whatever we can call it) position? A bourgeois government overseeing a capitalist economy will have to facilitate capital, and managing or facilitating capital, obviously, cannot be done on humanitarian grounds.

It's not so much that we support the KKE, although for a socialist group, staying out of bourgeois government, coalition or not, is the correct course. But the attempts to blame the KKE for Syriza's actions are pathetic - it's clear at this point that a lot of people have too much of an emotional investment into that ossified popular front, that to them, it must not fail. So all of its betrayals are blamed on other groups. If the KKE was in a coalition with Syriza, you can bet they would receive the blame for when capitalism inevitably turned out to be capitalism. They will get blamed either way. As will ANEL, which just a few months ago the Syriza-fans were trying to pass off as something harmless and even revolutionary, and not LAOS-lite.

[Sasha]

Had the situation been the same but the roles reversed anarchists would just as vocally supported the anarchists. The Stalinists would be the reactionaries trying to break up an anarchist demonstration while the anarchists had defended themselves. Okay, I had forgotten about the collaboration with cops because the emphasis always is on them supposedly "defending parliament", which is categorically nonsense. (There was no danger from the angry mob, because the mob has no means to realistically threaten parliament and politicians.) But a 'fact' that there was a deal with police? A roarmag article (siding more with the anarchist narrative) says "Carrying red flag sticks and wearing helmets, the unionists formed a human chain around Parliament. In the process, however, they ended up defending the state from the angry mob outside. Rather than turning their anger at the politicians, they protected them. Riot police were therefore happy to sit back and let the two sides fight each other."

Everyone i spoke who was there that day, even KKE supporters say there was an agreement between the riotcops and PAME that they would police the square for as long as their demo was during. The fact that only after the PAME demo riot police got deployed beyond only the emidiate surrounding of the parlaiment should say enough, also on the pictures you can see that there in nothing and no'one between the line of KKE stick brigade and the riotcops guarding the famous steps towards parlaiment, yes, if the KKE would have allowed the indiganos and later anarchist past the cops might have broken up the PAME demo too so yes, in that sense they where protecting their demo but they where therefor protecting their demo from a riot police attack by attacking the other leftists, not their demo from attack by the other leftist. A crucial difference.
But this is all off topic, SYRIZA deployed the riot police over the last 5 months, if the KKE would have been in power they would have too, its shows that all parlaimentary polictics are a dead end unless you disolve the whole state and all her institutions on the first day.

[PhoenixAsh]

Had the situation been the same but the roles reversed anarchists would just as vocally supported the anarchists. The Stalinists would be the reactionaries trying to break up an anarchist demonstration while the anarchists had defended themselves. Okay, I had forgotten about the collaboration with cops because the emphasis always is on them supposedly "defending parliament", which is categorically nonsense. (There was no danger from the angry mob, because the mob has no means to realistically threaten parliament and politicians.) But a 'fact' that there was a deal with police? A roarmag article (siding more with the anarchist narrative) says "Carrying red flag sticks and wearing helmets, the unionists formed a human chain around Parliament. In the process, however, they ended up defending the state from the angry mob outside. Rather than turning their anger at the politicians, they protected them. Riot police were therefore happy to sit back and let the two sides fight each other."


But that same Roarmag article does also say:


Towards the end of the second video below, Stalinist union members can clearly be seen talking to police and telling them to attack anarchist protesters. There was a nauseating degree of collaboration between communists and police — a collaborative attempt to defend the last vestiges of the Greek state

KOE who strongly condemned the Anarchists, liking the fights with fascist methods, had this to say:


The KKE leadership has been guilty of politically unacceptable stands — defending the parliament building, keeping radical protesters away from union forces and excluding them from political spaces


Whether a storming of the parliament would have been effective is up for serious debate. The fact is that the situation was explosive. There was potential. And for the first time in Greek protest history enough bodies to actually succeed in seriously disrupting an essential vote....there were over 1 million people in and around the square. In the totality of Athens there were 10000 police officers...

The riot police was seriously outnumbered by the PAME/KKE defense force alone. Not to mention the main body of the demonstration. Had they turned on the state and the bourgeoisie, as revolutionaries are supposed to do, the police would have had no chance to stop the workers.

Yet the police were very comfortable and relaxed in the knowledge that there would be nothing to worry about from the PAME/KKE demo.


On the 20th the KKE lined up around the parliament and refused to let anybody through to the front of the square (and tried to do the same in the side streets leading up to the square) who did not have a KKE or PAME membership card. There was very little police deployment and only two or three units were stationed in front of parliament. KKE/PAME guards (the ones with the helmets and sticks) beat up those who refused to show cards or who tried to pass the lines. They hunted them.

They didn't only do so in Athens. There were protests all over the country. In each city the KKE/PAME did exactly the same...in Crete it was the KNE. Again in none of these cities there was a sizable police force protecting the government buildings.

Now the KKE's own press releases show the line around parliament was created at the request of KKE leadership itself and also shows that parliamentarians were not actually being prevented to enter parliament. (you can find this press release on the KKE website)

In the side streets Anarchists and other revolutionary groups were, as I said above, already being violently prevented from getting to the square. Clashes started on the square between the Don't pay movement (liberal) on the square. The don't pay movement was joined by the Troskyists, other revolutionary communists, smaller political groups, Anarchists and the Greek Nationalists.

Had the fighting concentrated on the police and the state itself there would have been no way to prevent the workers and demonstrators to actually gain control of parliament and prevent the crucial vote. Hell...a small group of Anarchists had 5 days earlier been perfectly capable of circumventing police barriers to enter the parliament in a prisoner solidarity protest. But the 20th was a significant day because of the vote.

There are several possibilities for why the KKE would protect parliament.

Previous statements of the KKE make it appear they were trying to prevent -parliamentarians access to parliament. However this is nonsense since the parliamentarians including those of the KKE were already in the building and continued to stay in the building for the entire day while the debate was broadcasted.

There is also the very likely possibility that the KKE didn't think the time right for radical intervention. And this is one of the two most plausible explanations since the KKE has a long history of trying to gain control of the anti-capitalist movement. Statements of the KKE throughout the last decades indicate that the KKE will not cooperate with other left organizations unless they ideologically submit to the KKE. And this seems to align with the statement of the KKE that they are the only legitimate representatives of the working class.

Or they are simply a reactionary force which rejects extra parliamentary militant tactics. Which is also very likely given the history of the KKE itself in opposing radical uprisings in the last two decades and their continuous collaboration with the police and handing over protesters (mainly Trotskyists and Anarchists) during demonstrations and often hunting them down.

One simple fact remains...there was a line around parliament BEFORE violence broke out. There was NO reason to form that line. Much less a reasons of self defense.

This narrative is both completely rejected by the KKE own press statement, the events of that day, and the photographic and video evidence as well as the numerous statements by non-Anarchist revolutionary parties.

[cyu]

The only person who should put any faith in what Syriza can do is the head of Syriza. The only person who should put any faith in what KKE can do is the head of KKE. Everyone else should give those two as much trust as they trust the guy who lives next door, and take their own actions to further their goals. Then again, what else would you expect an anarchist to say? xD

[PhoenixAsh]

It's not so much that we support the KKE, although for a socialist group, staying out of bourgeois government, coalition or not, is the correct course. But the attempts to blame the KKE for Syriza's actions are pathetic - it's clear at this point that a lot of people have too much of an emotional investment into that ossified popular front, that to them, it must not fail. So all of its betrayals are blamed on other groups. If the KKE was in a coalition with Syriza, you can bet they would receive the blame for when capitalism inevitably turned out to be capitalism. They will get blamed either way. As will ANEL, which just a few months ago the Syriza-fans were trying to pass off as something harmless and even revolutionary, and not LAOS-lite.

Capitalism will be capitalism.

Yet there is merit in the statement, which I made at the time, that the KKE forced the SYRIZA group towards a coalition with other groups....which turned out to be ANEL....to even be able to form an alliance because of their refusal to cooperate. Because of that refusal the radical block within SYRIZA became proportionally smaller and with it the radicalization of SYRIZA became improbable....as did the radicalization of the workers of PAME/ADADY etc.

Here is an article about it from January by Socialist Alternative: http://www.socialistalternative.org/2015/01/30/greece-syriza-kke-fail-reach-agreement/

And there is this article explaining the KKE politics by the Jacobins:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2015/01/understanding-the-greek-communists/


The same situation would still have occurred but with a larger radical block within the government if the KKE had supported SYRIZA or joined SYRIZA.

In refusing any form of cooperation on any platform and any ground, as the KKE always does, the right wing shift of SYRIZA was actually quite logical. The concept of revolution or nothing that KKE is actively promoting means that there is nothing the KKE is prepared to do for the workers unless they suddenly become magically class conscious....and it is very defensible that exactly the politics and tactics of the KKE prevent just this class awareness in the working class.

As such they do share a lot of the blame for what is happening in Greece. Their actions time and time again have prevented escalation, radicalization and maintain the status quo.

The coalition with ANEL, a ND split, was within the bourgeois parliamentary system the only step that could have been taken short of opposition. You can make of that what you will but the KKE is a thoroughly bourgeois parliamentary party and their refusal to cooperate is simply creating a fait a complis that only serves both the state and the bourgeois class and plays directly in the hands of fascism and nationalism just because of the lack of a short and intermediate term alternative

[Thirsty Crow]

The concept of revolution or nothing that KKE is actively promoting means that there is nothing the KKE is prepared to do for the workers unless they suddenly become magically class conscious....But Phoenix, if the working class in Greece magically became "class conscious" over night, this would also entail a huge rise in militancy, so that your very question becomes moot - it's not what KKE can do for workers, but what workers' (and allies) can do for themselves. That's the primary question, but of course there is a role to be played by the political wing of the class vanguard. But I think your underlying approach, having ostensibly revolutionary groups "do something" for workers in the meantime, is flawed and should be rejected.

For instance, it's not what KKE or what have you is prepared to do. It's how fucking hard our brothers and sisters can fight and coerce the ruling party into concessions - which also includes us in other parts of Europe.

However, having said this...


and it is very defensible that exactly the politics and tactics of the KKE prevent just this class awareness in the working class.
...this is another matter. One where I'd probably agree with you, but maybe not for the same reasons.

[PhoenixAsh]

But Phoenix, if the working class in Greece magically became "class conscious" over night, this would also entail a huge rise in militancy, so that your very question becomes moot

Yes I agree. However class consciousness doesn't actually suddenly appear. It is something which is developed through consistent effort, action, education and continuous radicalization.


- it's not what KKE can do for workers, but what workers' (and allies) can do for themselves. That's the primary question, but of course there is a role to be played by the political wing of the class vanguard. But I think your underlying approach, having ostensibly revolutionary groups "do something" for workers in the meantime, is flawed and should be rejected.

Revolutionary groups should agitate and support radicalization of action through education and assistance to worker groups to organize themselves and direct workers that align themselves with a party or group towards that goal.

What the KKE, and other such parties, however actively seek to do is present themselves as an alternative to and as the representatives of the working class. This means that the premise of the party is already flawed to begin with because they actively promote a "savior" position. The workers are encouraged to look up to the party as the organ that will provide leadership and direction as well as strategy. If a party does that...it means that they have a responsibility towards the workers to actually do so.

It also means that if the working class is confronted with measures that directly threaten the class and the class cohesion the revolutionary groups have an obligation to seek to help the class to protect itself with measures that are not mere long term platitudes.

The KKE does not do so and operates within the parliamentary confines. This does not form an alternative.


For instance, it's not what KKE or what have you is prepared to do. It's how fucking hard our brothers and sisters can fight and coerce the ruling party into concessions - which also includes us in other parts of Europe.

Yes. And in that fight the KKE takes a position of moderation instead of agitation and radicalization.


...this is another matter. One where I'd probably agree with you, but maybe not for the same reasons.

I don't know.

My reason is that the KKE distracts from extra parliamentary politics and tactics and actively prevents self organization along revolutionary militant lines outside of the party dictate and control by working within the bourgeois system and actively seeking electoral peaceful solutions. It also doesn't engage with PAME by radicalizing the union membership and providing education.

One of the KKE leaders a few years back said that a revolution was only possible without shattering a single glass.

And within parliament KKE often votes along the same lines, but presumably for different reasons, as GD does.

I think that position and tactic pacifies worker.

[human strike]

THE MAJORITY OF THE MEMBERS OF SYRIZA'S CENTRAL COMMITTEE REJECT THE AGREEMENT!
STATEMENT by the 109 (out of 201) members of Syriza’s Central Committee
The 12th of July in Brussels, a coup took place in Brussels which demonstrated that the goal of the European leaders was to inflict an exemplary punishment on a people which had envisioned another path, different from the neoliberal model of extreme austerity. It is a coup directed against any notion of democracy and popular sovereignty.
The agreement signed with the “Institutions” was the outcome of threats of immediate economic strangulation and represents a new Memorandum imposing odious and humiliating conditions of tutelage that are destructive for our country and our people.
We are aware of the asphyxiating pressures that were exercised on the Greek side, we consider nevertheless that the proud NO of working people in the referendum does not allow the government to give up in the face the pressures of the creditors.
This agreement is not compatible with the ideas and the principles of the Left, but, above anything else, is not compatible with the needs of the working classes. This proposal cannot be accepted by the members and the cadres of Syriza.
We ask the Central Committee to convene immediately and we call on the members, the cadres and the MPs of Syriza to preserve the unity of the party on the basis of our conference decisions and of our programmatic commitments.
15 July 2015

[Sentinel]

Syriza in revolt: more than 50% of Central Committee against bailout

At least 107 members of Syriza’s Central Committee, out of a total of 201, have signed a declaration expressing strong opposition to the bailout deal agreed by Alexis Tsipras and Greece’s creditors on Monday morning.

As parliament debates the deal, the Syriza officials call for an extraordinary meeting of the central committee.

The declaration describes the deal forged in Brussels a “coup”.

It says that it proves that the aim of the creditors was to make an example of Greece that dared to “envisage a different road beyond and outside the neoliberal model of extreme austerity”.

"The agreement was the result of direct threats of economic strangulation and constitutes a new memorandum with excessively heavy and humiliating oversight, a disaster for our country and our people" , the declaration claims.

Link (http://m.enikos.gr/en/politics/32506,Syriza-in-revolt-more-than-50-of-Central-Committee-against-bailout.html)

It would seem that now is the time when the strenght of the left in Syriza, and the grassroots movement behind it, will be tested. A mass demonstration has been called for this evening, any news would be very interesting to hear.

^ Edit: ah, I was typing at the same time as the above poster. Also, is this still the main thread discussing this?

[Luís Henrique]

Didn't the KKE form a coalition with New Democracy once?

Oh, yes, but that was a revolutionary kind of capitulation.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Well, the IMF are saying that Greece has to have debt relief and a 30 year grace period, hinting that it won't involve itself in this deal otherwise. Germany of course has insisted the IMF be involved but won't support these IMF conclusions. It will be interesting to see what happens with that.

Perhaps the geopolitical dimension of the issue is starting to show. American imperialism certainly doesn't want Russia to have allies with Northern Mediterranean shores, and it may be concluding that German stubborness is going to increase the chance of exactly that. If the IMF is an instrument of American imperialism, then it makes sence that they are starting to put some pressure over Germany.

Luís Henrique

[Rafiq]

you can bet they would receive the blame for when capitalism inevitably turned out to be capitalism.

That's not the point. It has nothing to do with such delusions of destroying capitalism through electoral politics, but the immediate strategic and tactical implications the KKE's cowardly politics has led the working people of Greece. My point is that, especially if loyalty to NATO was put on the table, European leaders cannot afford a Grexit - which would be to Russia's favor. They cannot afford this, if they do everything they can to fight pro-Russian politics in Moldava, they sure as hell aren't going to let Greece fall to Russian interests.

The reality is that working people in Greece couldn't, and cannot be pressed to give a damn about Communism now, not because it is "unrealistic" but because they don't have a practical basis of direction, it is alien to them. Through "small" struggles like this, they are given a sense of direction. "Anti-capitalism" must have context, not in some vague abstraction.

[Luís Henrique]

Greece's deputy finance minister has just resigned (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-07-15/greek-deputy-finance-minister-resigns-ahead-of-crucial-vote/6623166).

Luís Henrique

[Alexios]

If SYRIZA has done anything positive in the last few weeks, it might be its demonstration of its own impotency and the impotency of electoralism in general. Luckily for Tsipras and his party, they've found a way to deflect criticism towards the eurozone for its "coup" against the Greek government (which willingly participated in the union and willingly took loans from it) and can now claim that they've "unveiled" the "true nature" of the EU, as if we all thought the euro leaders might not have been so bad before this all happened. Now SYRIZA apologists and members can continue deriding their critics as cynics divorced from the working class, despite all of our original criticisms and predictions being proven true in the last week.

[Thirsty Crow]

That's not the point. It has nothing to do with such delusions of destroying capitalism through electoral politics, but the immediate strategic and tactical implications the KKE's cowardly politics has led the working people of Greece. My point is that, especially if loyalty to NATO was put on the table, European leaders cannot afford a Grexit - which would be to Russia's favor. They cannot afford this, if they do everything they can to fight pro-Russian politics in Moldava, they sure as hell aren't going to let Greece fall to Russian interests. The only cowardly politics is that which just itches to land itself a government seat while doing mental gymnastics justifying itself as revolutionary.

[Sentinel]

From the fb page Europe Says Oxi:


Athens, in Parliament, today, at the meeting of Syriza’s parliamentary group. Thanassis Petrakos, speaker of Syriza's parliamentary group, Left Platform: A resounding NO!

"My responsibility vis-à-vis the government is to say a resounding No! to this despicable agreement, which is the outcome of an equally despicable blackmail. I am aware of the blackmail to which the Prime Minister and Euclid Tsakalotos have been subjected but I have to repeat that the responsibility of the MPs is to say “no, we do not accept this blackmail.”

Voting No is not attacking the government, it opens up a perspective. The No of Syriza’s parliamentary group gives to the people hope. The government and the PM might have been forced to accept this major defeat and this attempted coup but it is not acceptable for us to send the wrong message to the people. We can’t accept surrendering to the blackmail because that would mean that the people cannot stand up against their tyrants and their oppressors.
I can’t accept sending the wrong message to the Greek people. I call our people to support the rupture with those who want to turn our country into a colony.”

[Rafiq]

The only cowardly politics is that which just itches to land itself a government seat while doing mental gymnastics justifying itself as revolutionary.

And where do you derive the assumption that anyone claims Syriza itself is revolutionary? The point is that a revolution does not come out of our ass. It must have context. It must be wrought out through real struggles that approximate themselves to people's actual lives and experiences.

[PhoenixAsh]

Currently the Youth wing of KKE is protesting among side Anarchists & Trotskyists against the government plans. More and more protesters are gathering and there is a very thick police presence.

It I rumored that if there are more than 41 Syriza members voting against the government the plans will be rejected. As of now there are 31 confirmed no votes within Syriza.

Let's see how that goes.

[PhoenixAsh]

PM blackmails SYRIZA threatening that a no vote would leave his position and the SYRIZA government without a political basis and open to a national unity government.

ANEL rumored to vote partially against. They have 17 seats.

[Luís Henrique]

The speaker of the Greek Parliament seems to be actively obstructing the vote (http://www.kvoa.com/story/29550348/the-latest-greek-lawmakers-debate-on-austerity-is-delayed).

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

PAME has joined the protests. KKE seems to still be absent.

[Luís Henrique]

Clashes in Syntagma square; Molotov cocktails vs tear gas.

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

Clashes between rioters and cops. Peperspray and teargas are being deployed.

Currently there are 20.000 protesters in the square and 6000 cops are deployed through out Athens.

[The Feral Underclass]

You can watch the debate live here (http://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=78984) with English interpretation.

[Luís Henrique]

You can watch the debate live here (http://www.thepressproject.gr/details_en.php?aid=78984) with English interpretation.

Michaloliakos is speaking.

But no translation at all. (edit: that's because they have a no-platform policy regarding Golden Dawn.)

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-15/shocking-2008-aig-report-laying-out-motives-behind-europes-perpetual-crisis-and-deat

Informative capitalist view

[Luís Henrique]

Syriza guy just spoken; as far as I understand (translation is difficult to understand), for capitulation.

KKE representative speaking now.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

ANEL leader would have freed the MPs up to "vote their conscience"

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Fofi Genimmata makes the case that the failed attempts at resistance by Syriza's government have worsened the situation.

(and this will probably the line the Greek right is going to toe now: rebellion doesn't pay.)

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

ND and PASOK deride SYRIZA for the current situation but pledge support for the bills and reforms.

[PhoenixAsh]

What did the KKE representative say? I was on the phone.

[Sasha]

According to cops 12.500 people on the streets (so probably a lot more), its raining molotovs on the square...

[PhoenixAsh]

Earlier it did indeed. Right now the square is largely empty and quiet.

Skirmishes have moved to side streets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sk5bBCs_kU

[PhoenixAsh]

The press core just refused to translate the GD speaker as a political statement by the editorial team!?

[PhoenixAsh]

GD will vote against.

Says those voting for yes under the guise of doing it for the people actually defy the people and forget their no vote. They also refuse to listen to the people. Play puppets to their German masters.

[DOOM]

Wait what did I miss?

tl;dr??

[PhoenixAsh]

Wait what did I miss?

tl;dr??

The Greek Parliament is going to vote on the expedited reform laws.

Tsipras has said he doesn't believe in them but will see them through and will implement them. He is not present in parliament but spoke to SYRIZA urging to vote for the measures threatening he would lack political mandate to continue to govern otherwise.

Predictably ND/PASOK/POTAMI are voting in favor of the EU but deride SYRIZA to have caused the problems and harsh measures by trying to negotiate in the first place.

ANEL has freed their MP's to vote according to conscious instead of party line. 40 SYRIZA MP's say to vote against the measures. GD will vote against the measures.

Outside clashes between the cops and protesters have occurred but the Syntagma Square is currently empty

[The Feral Underclass]

Tsipras is currently speaking in Parliament.

[cyu]

If you don't want the pro-capitalist media to rollback any leftist gains http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2838119&postcount=136 Greeks would have to occupy the media like they've done in the past, but on a more permanent basis. If capitalist viewpoints were given time proportional to how many of them are in the population, then those viewpoints would be heard as rarely as leftist viewpoints are heard today.

However, the longer "the left" holds the mass media, the more likely military contacts in the IMF / ECB would attempt to convince friendly Greek military officials to stage a full fledged military coup.

[PhoenixAsh]

He is saying the memorandum will be the best option for Greece and that the memorandum allows for debt reduction. ND immediately responded by reading the passage of the memorandum denying debt reduction.

Tsipras is flip flopping and the ND is having a field day eventhough Tsipras stated that the ND is from the Schaubele family.

[cyu]

1947
Greece — President Truman requests military aid to Greece to support right-wing forces fighting communist rebels. For the rest of the Cold War, Washington and the CIA will back notorious Greek leaders with deplorable human rights records.

1965
Greece — With the CIA’s backing, the king removes George Papandreous as prime minister. Papandreous has failed to vigorously support U.S. interests in Greece.

1967
Greece — A CIA-backed military coup overthrows the government two days before the elections. The favorite to win was George Papandreous, the liberal candidate. During the next six years, the "reign of the colonels" — backed by the CIA — will usher in the widespread use of torture and murder against political opponents. When a Greek ambassador objects to President Johnson about U.S. plans for Cypress, Johnson tells him: "F*ck your parliament and your constitution."

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html

It's tempting to say that was all a thing of the past and that American foreign policy tactics are much different now. That would be the official line anyway, but the reality is that there have been no real structural changes that would prevent this from happening right now.

[PhoenixAsh]

100 to 32 in favor of yes....abstentions are there but I don't know the number....from SYRIZA 16 voted no and 3 abstentions.

151 votes needed to pass.

Left platform all vote no. ANEL votes yes.

[PhoenixAsh]

138 yes 42 no. 3 absentions.

[PhoenixAsh]

Vote passed the Prior Actions has passed as the 151 needed votes are reached. Voting will continue

[PhoenixAsh]

40 SYRIZA members voted no and 6 abstained. This leaves Tsipras in a very uncomfortable position as the opposition within his own party is much more sizable than previously thought.....on top of that he lost several government members that resigned the last few days.


END VOTE:

229 MPs voted ‘yes’ (or Nai), 64 voted ‘no’ (or Oxi), and 6 abstained.

[PhoenixAsh]

So...with these numbers...

How did KKE vote? And who are the one non voting member?

The Square is filling up again. Rapidly. The crowd doubled in 20 minutes

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/greecelive/pop-out

[Corbeau]

The Square is filling up again. Rapidly. The crowd doubled in 20 minutes

That's not live. At least not what I'm being fed at this end, it's not yet daylight in Athens.

[PhoenixAsh]

That's not live. At least not what I'm being fed at this end, it's not yet daylight in Athens.

It is pitch black night in my feed.

[Corbeau]

I'm guessing they didn't pay the electricity bill.

[Sentinel]

Europe says OXI fb page:

"As we learned of the disappointing result from the parliament, we also learned today that teargas from the left doesn't just burn the eyes; it burns hope.

[...]

This is a defeat we are not going to recover from soon - unless the people show their bravery again. That is our only hope.

So no time for mourning - we have to learn, reflect and organise. A new phase of the struggle has begun."

[Luís Henrique]

Well, we have just witnessed a political suicide. Syriza is over; it is to be seen if its left can do something better than just opposing verbal resistance in parliament.

With half of the CC and a quarter of the parliamentary slate, they apparently do have the strength to dislodge Syriza as the main party in the left.

Tsipras is going to fall; let's see if he does so before or after taking capitulation into the logical consequence of a "national unity" government.

Luís Henrique

[PhoenixAsh]

The debate went terrible for SYRIZA.

The opposition had a field day and it was noticeable how condescending they were towards both SYRIZA and in particular to Tsipras...like a gloating triumphant parent telling their previously warned child: "Told you so; welcome in the real world". This was exasperated by Tsipras very noticeably flip flopping and he was, rightly, called on it.

The ND reassured SYRIZA, repeatedly and with glee, that while they previously rejected the measures SYRIZA now brought home they would of course support the government unconditionally regardless of the fact that the memorandum was totally their fault for the childlike fantasy of being able to stand up to the EU and their incompetent swinging back and forth on positions and their words which made Tsipras and SYRIZA untrustworthy. They specifically referred to Tsipras statement that he wouldn't speak, then did speak in parliament as model behavior.

What we saw was the political and public assassination of the moderate left.

The left opposition was left in a very uncomfortable position in which they could not openly denounce the government of SYRIZA but voiced very strong opposition to the memorandum. This opposition was actually more vocal an much larger than I expected. I had expected them to cave. But with 39 SYRIZA MP's openly voting OXI and 6 direct abstentions...their opposition was quite principled. They did however state they would continue to support the government and would step down if asked. Which makes them hypocrites.

So far it really appears Golden Dawn will seriously benefit from the vote last night and there were many people in the streets expressing support for the showy tirades of the GD MP's who furiously tore up the memorandum and threw it across the floor in parliament.

My friends were in Athens. The night started with violent clashes between the protesters on the square and the riot cops. The square was cleared with tear gas and charges but the clashes turned into running battles in the side streets off the side streets for the larger part of the evening and part of the night. More actions are planned. Some small scuffles broke out between radical protesters and pockets of GD supporters. Nothing really major and it was noticeable that the KKE was largely absent from the protests. PAME however showed up dressed for the occasion...and for once weren't on the side of the cops.

[cyu]

It fills me with amazement to see such a narrow spirit, such an ignoble strife between two factions which should be one, and that, too, at a most critical period in the struggle of the proletariat.

What? Are we to put difference of party tactics before the desperate needs of the workers? Are we no better than the capitalist politicians who stand in the high places and harangue about pety matters, while millions of the people are underpaid, underfed, thrown out of work and dying? While countless women and children are breaking their hearts and ruining their bodies in long days of toil, we are fighting one another. Shame upon us! The enemy is at our very doors, and the hand of the destroyer does its fell work, while we leave the victims helpless, because we think more of our own theories — theories that have not even been tested!

It is well for us to disagree and discuss our differences fully and vigorously. But it is stupid to make the issues personal. If the points of controversy are ever so weighty, they are not so great as to justify the mischief which springs from the quarrels of comrades. How can the workers, whom we urge to unite, look to us Socialists for guidance if we fail to unite?

What are we organized for? What is our chief bond of unity? What is our avowed object? The welfare of the working class and the abolition of capitalism. By our fidelity to the working class and to our ultimate purpose we are to be tested. Our rise or fall depends not upon theories of party tactic, but upon what we do or fail to do in the practical contest. There are many ways to work for the coming of the Cooperative Commonwealth. But those who hope for that commonwealth and work for it, those who are on the workers' side of the battle are our comrades. They can never cease to be our comrades, even though they withdraw from our party, or are dismissed from our party. We are the friends of all who serve the workers, of all who labor for the social revolution, for the uplifting and enlightenment of all men.

http://www.sabinabecker.com/media/helen-keller-quote.jpg

[Luís Henrique]

"Told you so; welcome in the real world".

Well, Syriza apparently decided to come back to the "real world"; so it isn't surprising that the actual owners of the real world welcome it back.


The ND reassured SYRIZA, repeatedly and with glee, that while they previously rejected the measures SYRIZA now brought home they would of course support the government unconditionally regardless of the fact that the memorandum was totally their fault for the childlike fantasy of being able to stand up to the EU and their incompetent swinging back and forth on positions and their words which made Tsipras and SYRIZA untrustworthy.

They (ND and PASOK) moved quite intelligently. They have supported the horrors of austerity, saying they were inevitable, and were justly punished by the Greek voters for it. So they are now saying out aloud, "see, human sacrifices are inevitable; to the sacrificial altar now, and you, who were opposed to it, lead the way, so that no doubt remains about the inevitability... lead the way, or clear it for those who have always had the courage to call it as we see it". Or in other words, either prepare for repression against the Greek people, or renounce government.


The left opposition was left in a very uncomfortable position in which they could not openly denounce the government of SYRIZA but voiced very strong opposition to the memorandum. This opposition was actually more vocal an much larger than I expected. I had expected them to cave. But with 39 SYRIZA MP's openly voting OXI and 6 direct abstentions...their opposition was quite principled. They did however state they would continue to support the government and would step down if asked. Which makes them hypocrites.

I am not sure that this makes them hypocrites, but it makes them terminally obtuse. The governmnent is over, it can only cling to power by negating itself to the fullest extent, including the unleashing of violent repression against their own political base. It can only save what little remains of its face by falling immediately, before it sullies its hands in blood.

It is said that there is a kind of blindness that is transmitted by sitting into parliamentary and ministerial seats; it seems to have affected the "left opposition". It is time to recongnise defeat and start anew; clinging to an electoral victory won in January won't do any good anymore.


So far it really appears Golden Dawn will seriously benefit from the vote last night and there were many people in the streets expressing support for the showy tirades of the GD MP's who furiously tore up the memorandum and threw it across the floor in parliament.

While ND and PASOK are gloating about their pyrrhic victory, it is obvious that they remain political lepers, and won't be able to build any kind of "governability" of themselves. So it is time for some other political force to come into the scene, and be tried by the circumstances. The KKE remarkably doesn't want to, so this leaves us with Golden Dawn. Or perhaps Antarsyia, but it may be too late now for another left-wing alternative.

So let's prepare to what is probably coming unto us: Greece with a far-right, antisemitic, anti-immigration, openly bigoted, and probably pro-Russian government, the EU taking the opportunity to exclude and marginalise Greece under "democratic" pretexts, American imperialism appearing as the reasonable force that tries to push Germany into some common-sence calculation about the political risks of the situation, and Russia scheming Odin-knows-what scheme to profit on the troubles while shpealing "anti-imperialism".

Ample opportunities for leftists going astray and losing sight of what is at stake... as it seems we like to do.


Nothing really major and it was noticeable that the KKE was largely absent from the protests. PAME however showed up dressed for the occasion...and for once weren't on the side of the cops.

Well, at least something remains predictable in this whole mess.

Luís Henrique