Leftists supporting Russian Far-Right

[Tim Cornelis]

I'm so fucking tired of seeing leftists, mostly opportunistic Stalinists, support Russian ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They peddle the myth of a Nazi Kiev, which is unbelievably fucking stupid, they call people openly associated with the far-right "comrade", and ignore all the Czarist and imperial symbols employed by the Russian nationalist forces. It's unbelievably infuriating. These people don't care about class analysis, why do they pretend they do? It reminds me of the useful idiots of China's imperialist agenda, cynically balancing power between China and the USSR, China rallied behind US imperialism against the Soviet Union and then "socialist" regime of Mao gave superficial ideological justification, and the useful idiots ate it up, still aping it to this day. And now, they don't care about the overwhelming presence of Nazbols and Czarists, they don't care that it is part of Russia balancing power with the USA and EU... well they do, that's the point, they are anti-Western chauvinists, not socialists, support social-chauvinist politics and Third Positionism. What they care about is being part of a geopolitical camp, and not the weak liberal one, no the Strongman anti-Western one, they love militarism and power play. Tankie ass pieces of fucking shit.

[PhoenixAsh]

The division of the working class in geopolitical imperialist struggles...

[Tim Cornelis]

Is there some analysis of Tankie politics? Some texts or something?

[Os Cangaceiros]

The "neo-Nazi coup in Kiev" narrative is hilarious.

[Tim Cornelis]

That narrative comes straight out of Moscow to serve its geopolitical (i.e. imperialist) agenda, like third-worldism, and the useful idiots eat it up.

[Guardia Rossa]

Why there are so many neonazi, eurasian and neoeurasians in Russia?
Is there some study or book on this?

Also, there are a lot of autodeclared communists in Novorossiya, but I don't think they are exactly communists...

[RedAnarchist]

Why there are so many neonazi, eurasian and neoeurasians in Russia?
Is there some study or book on this?

Also, there are a lot of autodeclared communists in Novorossiya, but I don't think they are exactly communists...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin is probably a big influence.

[Zanters]

Its so sad that they are the majority of what makes up idea of communism

[Tim Cornelis]

Aaah, they fucking got me again on facebook. I hoped that the scales had turned a little bit in this thread in this thread but it was just fucking Tankie shit.

Liberal civilian government = fascist junta, my god. And communists allied with liberals and socdems, so it's totes okay to fight with fascists against liberals and fascists, fucking morons. :mad::mad::mad:

As if a liberal civilian government can't be reason enough to fight them, Tankies are proto-liberals. :p

===
There's a lot of fascists in Russia because of the collapse of the Soviet Union. Fascism breeds where there is a protracted crisis and scarcity of liberal values.

[willowtooth]

I'm confused wasn't Ukraine a liberal civilian government before the coup? Are you saying we should support the kiev government? anytime i see leftists criticize Donetsk they always bring up dugin who is largely discredited among the groups fighting in Donetsk , hes far from leading the movement. Compare that too the hitler youth rallies, the marches of hundreds of neo nazi supporters shouting heil hitler. Jewish rabbis in ukraine saying its no longer safe for jews in kiev?

Maybe if communists sent leaders and fighters too donestsk like the russian nationalists did there would be a better movement instead of complaining that theyre not "true communists" so fuck em, thats the attitude I see coming from the far left, fuck em

[Sasha]

the rabbi story was bullshit...

but no, no'one here is denying that the ukrainian gov side is full with nationalist asshoiles and in (small) part leans on some nazi street support, the problem is that the other side is at least as bad.

[Tim Cornelis]

Willowooth, should communist leaders (doesn't make sense) send people to ISIS to see if we can change their system from within too? What are you talking about? And who are the "true communists" then? National Bolsheviks? Yes fuck 'em, fuck Christian extremist self-identified imperialist ultra-nationalists! OF COURSE!

[willowtooth]

Willowooth, should communist leaders (doesn't make sense) send people to ISIS to see if we can change their system from within too? What are you talking about? And who are the "true communists" then? National Bolsheviks? Yes fuck 'em, fuck Christian extremist self-identified imperialist ultra-nationalists! OF COURSE!

why doesn't the phrase "communist leaders" make sense? are you just being pedantic? okay socialist leaders whatever you know what i mean

and yes it would be great if communists could infiltrate isis and turn the anti-imperialist movement of isis and alqueada into a communist movement or socialist movement like the pkk, but it would be way harder then donestsk

timmy you could go too donetsk right now and be welcomed with open arms your theories of insurrection and communism in general would be embraced, you cant say the same thing about kiev, where you would probably be arrested and hanged. I think it says alot about the far left that we haven't taken advantage of this uprising to bring about the social revolution, instead we've left them too the whims of whoever will feed them first, you basically say fuck the peasants who believe in religion and have some kind of national pride, well that makes you a bit of a chauvinist and elitist as well. these people live on less than $2 a day and many are illiterate are you really upset that there not well versed in advanced communist theory? My question to you is does any proletariat not worship god and country out of training??

you've simultaneously dismissed Stalinist for being tankie and Maoists for opposing stalin, are you just a non-violent communist? name one communist who ever picked up a gun who you support for me

I'm not trying too insult you, I just dont understand this position

[Rurkel]

There's no large social group in DNR/LNR that identifies itself as "peasants", and the literacy level in the region is 99+%. Unless you were talking about Iraq, not Ukraine.

Tim would definitely not be hanged in Kiev (that's some serious exaggeration going on), although he probably has some chance of being arrested and fined if he demonstrates Communist symbols openly while some local official is in a bad mood.

[#FF0000]

timmy you could go too donetsk right now and be welcomed with open arms your theories of insurrection and communism in general would be embraced,

What are you basing this on?

[Tim Cornelis]

Willowooth, I hope for your sake that you are a young, naive person so that you still have time to grow out of this. You are divorced from reality. You really just said that communists should infiltrate far-right ultra-reactionary groups, like Russian fascism and the Islamic State to try and convert them to communism! Is this guy a troll?

1) Communist leaders? What communist leaders? How do you think communist groups work? This shows you have an entirely wrong impression on how the world works.
2) Would I be welcomed in Donetsk? Probably not, if I freely expressed myself, and argued that there's nothing wrong with homosexuality, that the Orthodox church shouldn't be the state religion, that I'm opposed to nationalism and imperialism. Like for instance, a Russian historian was shot when he compared Novorossiya to fascism due to its relation to nationalism and imperialism.
3) Arrested and hanged in Kiev? That's laughable. You live in an alternate universe.

I don't say Stalinists are Tankies. You don't see anti-revisionist "Marxist-Leninists" support the Russian far-right, you only see a particular type of self-proclaimed Stalinist, the Tankie, whom probably also supports Lukashenko and Assad. And you also have a messed up timeline. The alignment with US imperialism by China and Mao happened after Stalin's death.

[Blake's Baby]

Are there fascists in Ukraine, some influential in the government? Yes, I think so.

Are there fascists in Moscow, some influential in the government? Yes, I think so.

Is this about a clash of ideologies? No. It's about a clash of interests. Ukrainian nationalism is just as poisonous as Russian nationalism. Neither has anything to offer the working class.

[Left Voice]

I've even seen some Anarcho-Communists do this (see the 'Anarcho-Communism' group on Facebook). It's bizarre.

Whatever communist symbolism we see used by them is being used out of some nostalgia for Soviet nationalism rather than out of any connection with communism.

[Mr. Piccolo]

The more rational "Tankies" recognize that Putin is a pro-capitalist reactionary and that he cynically exploits Soviet-era symbolism for his own purposes. They also recognize the existence of right-wing elements among the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. But they are correct about fascist elements in West Ukraine.

The BBC is not exactly a pro-Putin outlet and even they reported on pro-Bandera marches in Kiev.

See:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30655184

Both sides are pretty bad but the Left ought to see this as an opportunity. Any conflict between capitalist powers creates potential openings for socialists and communists to exploit.

The international climate is looking better for the Left now that American imperial hegemony is weakening.

[Tim Cornelis]

No one is denying that there's fascist groups operating in Ukraine, that no fascist elements exist in West Ukraine. We argue that they do not control political power, there's no "Nazi Kiev".

[Mr. Piccolo]

No one is denying that there's fascist groups operating in Ukraine, that no fascist elements exist in West Ukraine. We argue that they do not control political power, there's no "Nazi Kiev".

I agree with you there. It is certainly overstated by pro-Putinists.

Unfortunately, from speaking with people from the region I get the impression that there is a lot of old, bad blood at work here. For example, I mentioned in another thread the use of the term "Uniate" among supporters of the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. This is a pejorative term for Greek Catholics in union with Rome and is a shot at Western Ukrainians.

Clearly this conflict is not a simple fascists vs. communists/anti-fascists issue since you can argue that Far Right elements exist on both sides.

[Blake's Baby]

...

Both sides are pretty bad but the Left ought to see this as an opportunity...

The working class is being caught between the hammer of Ukrainian nationalism an the anvil of Russian nationalism! What an opportunity comrades!


... Any conflict between capitalist powers creates potential openings for socialists and communists to exploit...

Only in so far as we shout as loudly as we can that the working class has no interest in following any of the insane butchers.


...
The international climate is looking better for the Left now that American imperial hegemony is weakening.

The international climate is looking worse for the working class now that local bourgeoisies are in tighter control/states are imploding. The rise of ISIS does nothing for the working class. Yay! the US has lost control in Iraq. The entrenchment of the warlords offers nothing to the working class. Yay! the US has lost control of Afghanistan. The rise of Chinese expansionism gives nothing to the working class. Yay! the US can't protect the territorial integrity of its SE Asian allies.

Really. The situation now is terrible. And you sit in the chaos talking of opportunity.

[The Disillusionist]

I say let the people decide. The population on the Crimean Peninsula was almost entirely Russians, who wanted to return to Russia.... so I can't really say that I care that Russia took it back. As for the rest of the contested areas... take a vote or something, put the people in charge. That's a more leftist solution to the issue than supporting either of those screwed up governments, and it rids us westerners of our imperialist mindset that we have the obligation to somehow interfere in the whole business.

[Tim Cornelis]

I thought communists were supposed to be vanguardists, not tailists and populists. "Let the people decide", and if they decide fascism?

[Armchair Partisan]

Willowooth, I hope for your sake that you are a young, naive person so that you still have time to grow out of this. You are divorced from reality. You really just said that communists should infiltrate far-right ultra-reactionary groups, like Russian fascism and the Islamic State to try and convert them to communism! Is this guy a troll?

He's the same guy that told us that Western feminists are like the Taliban. It's actually kind of a relief to see that the rest of his politics are just as shitty.

[Atsumari]

Unfortunately, this problem infects left-wing populists such as Democracy Now! who unashamedly invites apologists such as Stephen Cohen who does what pro-Russian "anti-fascists" do which is to make hyperbolic predictions that turn out wrong in the end.
I fear that this conflict is only going to strengthen the politic discourse Dugin wishes to see which is trying to divide ideology as Eurasianism vs Atlanticism, a form of discourse that will make the horseshoe theory appear reasonable.

On top of that, I remember the days when it was mostly people from the Anglo world who tended to be the biggest idiots with everyone in the discussion sighing when a Rupert Murdoch source was linked. Nowadays, Russian propaganda is so ridiculous and outright toxic to the point that I fear FOX has been outdone.
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[willowtooth]

The more rational "Tankies" recognize that Putin is a pro-capitalist reactionary and that he cynically exploits Soviet-era symbolism for his own purposes. They also recognize the existence of right-wing elements among the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. But they are correct about fascist elements in West Ukraine.

The BBC is not exactly a pro-Putin outlet and even they reported on pro-Bandera marches in Kiev.

See:http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30655184

Both sides are pretty bad but the Left ought to see this as an opportunity. Any conflict between capitalist powers creates potential openings for socialists and communists to exploit.

The international climate is looking better for the Left now that American imperial hegemony is weakening.

^^this


shouldn't communists take advantage of the Ukraine situation? if the use of soviet symbolism is just soviet nationalist nostalgia then why do you often see che guevara posters and flags at protests?

and yes i guess if you went donetsk and started calling everyone fascists peices of shit then they probably wouldn't welcome you with open arms so i guess im wrong about that, and if you went too kiev and said dnr is nothing but christian extremist fascists they wouldn't shoot you.

so if kiev is a liberal civilian government that agrees , with you that donetsk rebels are pieces of shit and them hanging you is "laughable" but dnr would shoot you, then why shouldn't we support kiev? My question is if you lived in ukraine what would you do other than flee the country?

[Blake's Baby]

Why do you think that backing one side or the other has any benefit to the working class?

Would you rather be poisoned or hanged? Go on, pick one pick one pick one pick one you have to pick one.

[Tim Cornelis]

^^this


shouldn't communists take advantage of the Ukraine situation? if the use of soviet symbolism is just soviet nationalist nostalgia then why do you often see che guevara posters and flags at protests?

One person bringing a Che Guevara flag doesn't say much. Che-flags are outnumbered 1 to 1000 by flags with Imperial and Czarist symbolism.

And why do we see Che Guevara at nazi rallies in Western Europe? Because of Autonomous Nationalists and Third Positionists.


so if kiev is a liberal civilian government that agrees , with you that donetsk rebels are pieces of shit and them hanging you is "laughable" but dnr would shoot you, then why shouldn't we support kiev?

Because, apparently unlike you, I don't support liberal governments? I already said this by the way, but whatever.


My question is if you lived in ukraine what would you do other than flee the country?

Clarify the position of communists: no support for nationalism, no support for social-chauvinism.

[Tim Cornelis]

Willowooth and Tankies be like "Hey! Look, Comrades! If they're not comrades how come they use antifa symbols? Look, they have a Che-flag!"

https://40.media.tumblr.com/2344255d0671eb2f0bc4955ee8c6c7ce/tumblr_inline_nmppmnYAXd1szam3q_540.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/2eyb3ph.jpg

https://www.antifainfoblatt.de/sites/default/files/public/styles/front_full/public/nazis-che-look.jpg?itok=jM3QXlZr

^Those are all nazis by the way, in case you couldn't figure it out.

[Sharia Lawn]

Ukrainian Nazis shop at the Che Store, too, eh?

[o well this is ok I guess]

I thought communists were supposed to be vanguardists, not tailists and populists. "Let the people decide", and if they decide fascism? as long as they don't vote to stay in the UK

[QueerVanguard]

I'm so fucking tired of seeing leftists, mostly opportunistic Stalinists, support Russian ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They peddle the myth of a Nazi Kiev, which is unbelievably fucking stupid, they call people openly associated with the far-right "comrade", and ignore all the Czarist and imperial symbols employed by the Russian nationalist forces. It's unbelievably infuriating. These people don't care about class analysis, why do they pretend they do? It reminds me of the useful idiots of China's imperialist agenda, cynically balancing power between China and the USSR, China rallied behind US imperialism against the Soviet Union and then "socialist" regime of Mao gave superficial ideological justification, and the useful idiots ate it up, still aping it to this day. And now, they don't care about the overwhelming presence of Nazbols and Czarists, they don't care that it is part of Russia balancing power with the USA and EU... well they do, that's the point, they are anti-Western chauvinists, not socialists, support social-chauvinist politics and Third Positionism. What they care about is being part of a geopolitical camp, and not the weak liberal one, no the Strongman anti-Western one, they love militarism and power play. Tankie ass pieces of fucking shit.

This is par for the course when materialism is taken out of Marxism and it just turns into another breed of Utopian Shitalism.

[Comrade Jacob]

I support the leftists in their ranks.

[G4b3n]

the anti-imperialist movement of isis and alqueada

If ISIS are anti-imps, then I would like to transfer to the imperialist camp please.

[The Disillusionist]

I thought communists were supposed to be vanguardists, not tailists and populists. "Let the people decide", and if they decide fascism?

Again, not a Communist... I'm an anarchist. Vanguardism doesn't work. If the people decide fascism, then get away from them and prepare for war. That's all you can reasonably do. You can't force people to act a certain way, that's fascism in itself (which is why Communism and fascism have a pretty bad track record together).

[Mr. Piccolo]

Why do you think that backing one side or the other has any benefit to the working class?

Would you rather be poisoned or hanged? Go on, pick one pick one pick one pick one you have to pick one.

Then what is your strategy? Just wait for the miraculous "world revolution?" I give credit to Leftists fighting Ukrainian fascists even if there are nasty, Rightist elements in the Eastern Ukraine as well.

It is easy to be "right" all the time when you simply bash every real-world socialist movement because it does not fit into idealized preconceptions.

[Mr. Piccolo]

^^this


shouldn't communists take advantage of the Ukraine situation? if the use of soviet symbolism is just soviet nationalist nostalgia then why do you often see che guevara posters and flags at protests?

and yes i guess if you went donetsk and started calling everyone fascists peices of shit then they probably wouldn't welcome you with open arms so i guess im wrong about that, and if you went too kiev and said dnr is nothing but christian extremist fascists they wouldn't shoot you.

so if kiev is a liberal civilian government that agrees , with you that donetsk rebels are pieces of shit and them hanging you is "laughable" but dnr would shoot you, then why shouldn't we support kiev? My question is if you lived in ukraine what would you do other than flee the country?

Of course the Left should take advantage of the Ukrainian situation, but that would mean getting involved in messy, real world conflicts, which many Leftists find to be disagreeable for some reason.

It is much easier to endlessly critique and await the coming of the World Revolution.

[Thirsty Crow]

Then what is your strategy? Just wait for the miraculous "world revolution?" I give credit to Leftists fighting Ukrainian fascists even if there are nasty, Rightist elements in the Eastern Ukraine as well.

It is easy to be "right" all the time when you simply bash every real-world socialist movement because it does not fit into idealized preconceptions.
Time and again, the same basic set of misconceptions need to be cleared up.

I'll respond as if this were directed to me since I think BB's and my own thinking is very similar. The thing is, I don't have a strategy. I'm not a delusional armchair wannabe general of an imaginary army. On the other hand, what I do think needs to function as the basis for communists' action in the region is the clear and unequivocal recognition that chauvinism leads to a bloodbath the regional working class won't recover from for a very long time. There can be no other basis for communists. That excludes any support of whatever kind for imperialist butchers - be they of one persuasion and national footing or the other.

Another misconception is that a handful of dubious elements waving Che flags constitute a socialist movement; the sad fact is that there is no such thing in the region. That seems to be the illusion people wish to be true really hard; indeed, that would present an opportunity, a veritable socialist movement however weakened by internal problems. But it is clear who is in charge; it is not any leftist guerilla. The same holds for Western Ukraine as well.

So what we end up with is a tragic picture of a bloodbath and chauvinist conflict with geopolitical, imperialist background. I guess it's nice to always try and see the good in the bad, but sometimes this is nothing more than a self-delusion.

And I shudder to think what would getting into real, dirty conflict in this case actually entail for communists who don't live there. I guess it's time to pack and learn some basic combat skills along the way, and join the socialist movement which so happens to be associated with a couple of rightist elements. But it's important to fight the Kiev fascism, right?

I'd invite you to follow your own advice and get down to some real world dirty work. Don't go there, actually, when I think about it.

[G4b3n]

Again, not a Communist... I'm an anarchist. Vanguardism doesn't work. If the people decide fascism, then get away from them and prepare for war. That's all you can reasonably do. You can't force people to act a certain way, that's fascism in itself (which is why Communism and fascism have a pretty bad track record together).

Authority in itself is not fascist. Fascism has very specific characteristics. If it were, then all of us, even the most anarcho of anarchists are fascists. Because working class action is in itself "authoritarian", there is no liberty in revolution. Liberty has yet to liberate anyone, because in practice, anarchists employee armed bodies of people that resemble function for function, a state.

[Mr. Piccolo]

Time and again, the same basic set of misconceptions need to be cleared up.

I'll respond as if this were directed to me since I think BB's and my own thinking is very similar. The thing is, I don't have a strategy. I'm not a delusional armchair wannabe general of an imaginary army. On the other hand, what I do think needs to function as the basis for communists' action in the region is the clear and unequivocal recognition that chauvinism leads to a bloodbath the regional working class won't recover from for a very long time. There can be no other basis for communists. That excludes any support of whatever kind for imperialist butchers - be they of one persuasion and national footing or the other.

Another misconception is that a handful of dubious elements waving Che flags constitute a socialist movement; the sad fact is that there is no such thing in the region. That seems to be the illusion people wish to be true really hard; indeed, that would present an opportunity, a veritable socialist movement however weakened by internal problems. But it is clear who is in charge; it is not any leftist guerilla. The same holds for Western Ukraine as well.

So what we end up with is a tragic picture of a bloodbath and chauvinist conflict with geopolitical, imperialist background. I guess it's nice to always try and see the good in the bad, but sometimes this is nothing more than a self-delusion.

And I shudder to think what would getting into real, dirty conflict in this case actually entail for communists who don't live there. I guess it's time to pack and learn some basic combat skills along the way, and join the socialist movement which so happens to be associated with a couple of rightist elements. But it's important to fight the Kiev fascism, right?

I'd invite you to follow your own advice and get down to some real world dirty work. Don't go there, actually, when I think about it.

I will admit to being as much of a Keyboard Warrior as anyone, and I would probably get killed as soon as I step off the airplane. But I also don't presume to judge the socialist "credentials" of all of the people fighting in the Eastern Ukraine.

Yes, it is true that there are Russian nationalists, Orthodox fundamentalists, Czarists, and other reactionaries among the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. Yes, some of the "leftists" might be NazBol types. But I cannot presume that everyone who flies a Soviet flag is just manifesting nostalgia and that is it. Even nostalgia is meaningful and can be a place to start building a genuine worker's movement.

I just find the pat dismissal of some of the Eastern Ukrainian rebels to be unwarranted. I don't see why this conflict is not a potential opening for the Left. Would the world situation be better under more complete American hegemony? Didn't the Great Power conflict of World War I create an opening for the Bolsheviks and others that would not have existed otherwise (no matter what one thinks of the ultimate outcome of 1917 and the Russian Civil War).

What would posters here like to see in a worker's movement on the ground? I am not trying to be sarcastic, I would like to know what it would look like, what tactics it would use, etc.

I am sorry for being intemperate but I think it is presumptuous to throw potential comrades under the bus just because other elements in the Eastern Ukraine are reactionary.

[Thirsty Crow]

Yes, it is true that there are Russian nationalists, Orthodox fundamentalists, Czarists, and other reactionaries among the Eastern Ukrainian rebels. Yes, some of the "leftists" might be NazBol types. But I cannot presume that everyone who flies a Soviet flag is just manifesting nostalgia and that is it. Even nostalgia is meaningful and can be a place to start building a genuine worker's movement. Okay, makes sense. I wouldn't agree wholly with the nostalgia thing, but okay.

And the situation then seems like this. There's a handful of people (I don't think everyone should remind you post after post that there is very strong evidence that shows the utter dominance of the blackest reaction) who might be inclined to internationalist working class politics.

The first thing to clear up, in fact, is internationalism. The dichotomy between alleged naive and utopian internationalism and down&dirty pragmatic realpolitik is a false one because it fails to account for the simple fact that an international outspread of social revolution significantly heightens the probability of success in the future. The pragmatism of people who act as opportunists is a disastrous kind of pragmatism, and is ultimately untenable. Unfortunately, there are no viable shortcuts.

Here, this means unconditional opposition to any and all national/ethnic forms of chauvinism, and the imperialist blocs which act as their bulwarks and pillars. It needs to be understood clearly that this implies a potentially life threatening situation for active communists.

And there's no good reason for refraining to highlight this fact. So, take this into account as well. I'm not saying that defeatism ought to be encouraged from abroad, but rather that the severity of the situation as experienced by regional communists simply needs to be understood. And it is true that my talking about this can be construed as preaching from afar. However, I do claim I have valid reasons for upholding these points, especially the crucial point of internationalism, for reasons that have nothing to do with any possible misinformation on my behalf. In fact, they're independent from the situation at hand and are informed by the history of the workers' and communist movements. They aren't defeatist in any meaningful sense of the term.

Do you agree with these points?


I just find the pat dismissal of some of the Eastern Ukrainian rebels to be unwarranted. I don't see why this conflict is not a potential opening for the Left. Would the world situation be better under more complete American hegemony? Didn't the Great Power conflict of World War I create an opening for the Bolsheviks and others that would not have existed otherwise (no matter what one thinks of the ultimate outcome of 1917 and the Russian Civil War).
I'm not sure that the analogy makes sense. For one thing, the armies at the time were a different kind of beast, and were formations of conscripted proletarians (not only proletarians but it's clear what I'm getting at). As such, it seems that the situation was much, much more conducible to organizing within the army.

I think the exact opposite holds true in our case here. And I don't accept for a moment that the situation would be "better" under total American hegemony. The situation would be better without the bloodshed, but it would be false to conclude that this requires American hegemony as a necessary precondition.

Also, it's idle chatter to speculate on what would have been in the absence of the Great War. It's also irrelevant to the discussion at hand, and if you meant to imply that war is necessary for any "opening", then that would be false (and very easy to demonstrate since it would only take an example of the opposite case; for instance, the events in France and Italy at the end of the 60s).


What would posters here like to see in a worker's movement on the ground? I am not trying to be sarcastic, I would like to know what it would look like, what tactics it would use, etc.
That's a big question since it basically asks for a complete description of all of the necessary features. One that I already stated as crucial is internationalism, and is a rare, very rare occurrence in the region.



I am sorry for being intemperate but I think it is presumptuous to throw potential comrades under the bus just because other elements in the Eastern Ukraine are reactionary.
I don't think I'm throwing anyone under the bus. If anything, it's those naive people who're doing that indirectly by associating with hardcore reaction. What could I do? Not much. What I can do is offer some modest help with clarification of what's going on, and of course this includes any potential contact with Ukrainian and Russian communists (which I, and neither the tiny informal group I participate in, have at the moment unfortunately).

[Per Levy]

@mr piccolo: i think a major problem is that the organisations/people you identify as a "socialist movement" are fighting one bourgeois camp, while fighting for the other bourgeois camp. so these "socialists" fight for the bourgeoisie. they fight in war that decides who is allowed to exploit the ukrainian workers, the west ukrainian bourgeoisie that is allied with the west on one side or the east ukrainian bourgeoisie that is allied with russia on the other. either way, the ukrainian workers are getting screwed either way. and no soviet flag, or che poster can change that.

[MethodMania]

I'm so fucking tired of seeing leftists, mostly opportunistic Stalinists ...

spotted your mistake

[Tim Redd]

I'm so fucking tired of seeing leftists, mostly opportunistic Stalinists, support Russian ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. They peddle the myth of a Nazi Kiev, which is unbelievably fucking stupid, they call people openly associated with the far-right "comrade", and ignore all the Czarist and imperial symbols employed by the Russian nationalist forces. It's unbelievably infuriating. These people don't care about class analysis, why do they pretend they do?

There are no true Stalinists in Russia as far as I can tell. There are people marching around with Stalin posters, but they are far from Stalin's near Marxist politics from the 20's to the 50's. Stalin was half a Marxist and half an opportunist. But he was never a right wing fascist like those in Russia praising him nowadays.


It reminds me of the useful idiots of China's imperialist agenda, cynically balancing power between China and the USSR, China rallied behind US imperialism against the Soviet Union and then "socialist" regime of Mao gave superficial ideological justification, and the useful idiots ate it up, still aping it to this day.

Mao made the mistake of supporting US empire world politics in the '70s to the detriment of true Marxist revolutionaries in the US and other countries of the West.