Neo-Conservatism stemming from Trotskyism?

[Left Voice]

I was browsing Wikipedia and stumbled across something that I'm struggling to get my head around.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism


The term "neoconservative" refers to those who made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist left to the camp of American Conservatism.


A substantial number of neoconservatives were originally moderate socialists associated with the right-wing of the Socialist Party of America (SP), and its successor, Social Democrats, USA (SDUSA). Max Shachtman, a former Trotskyist theorist who developed a strong antipathy towards the New Left, had numerous devotees among SDUSA with strong links to George Meany's AFL-CIO. Following Shachtman and Meany, this faction led the SP to oppose an immediate withdrawal from the Vietnam War, and oppose George McGovern in the Democratic primary race (and to some extent, the general election). They also chose to cease their own party-building and concentrated on working within the Democratic Party, eventually influencing it through the Democratic Leadership Council.[26] Thus the Socialist Party ceased to be in 1972 and SDUSA emerged (Most of the left-wing of the party, led by Michael Harrington, immediately abandoned SDUSA).[27][28] SDUSA leaders associated with neoconservatism include Carl Gershman, Penn Kemble, Joshua Muravchik, and Bayard Rustin.[29] [30] [31][32]


In another (2004) article, Michael Lind also wrote:

"Neoconservatism... originated in the 1970s as a movement of anti-Soviet liberals and social democrats in the tradition of Truman, Kennedy, Johnson, Humphrey and Henry ('Scoop') Jackson, many of whom preferred to call themselves 'paleoliberals.' [After the end of the Cold War]... many 'paleoliberals' drifted back to the Democratic center... Today's neocons are a shrunken remnant of the original broad neocon coalition. Nevertheless, the origins of their ideology on the left are still apparent. The fact that most of the younger neocons were never on the left is irrelevant; they are the intellectual (and, in the case of William Kristol and John Podhoretz, the literal) heirs of older ex-leftists."



Trotskyism is the type of communism advocated by Leon Trotsky and his followers, emphasizing orthodox Marxist concepts of workers' power in opposition to state bureaucracy, and international proletarian revolution, while critical of Stalinism and the USSR. Critics of neo-conservatism have charged that neo-conservatism is descended from Trotskyism, and that Trotskyist traits continue to characterize ideologies and practices of neo-conservatism. During the Reagan Administration, the charge was made that the foreign policy of the Reagan administration was being managed by Trotskyists.[citation needed] This claim was called a "myth" by Lipset (1988, p. 34):[99] This "Trotskyist" charge has been repeated and even widened by journalist Michael Lind during 2003 to assert a takeover of the foreign policy of the George W. Bush administration by former Trotskyists;[100] Lind's "amalgamation of the defense intellectuals with the traditions and theories of 'the largely Jewish-American Trotskyist movement' [in Lind's words]" was criticized during 2003 by University of Michigan professor Alan M. Wald,[101] who had discussed Trotskyism in his history of "the New York intellectuals".[102][103]

The charge that neoconservativism is related to Leninism has been made, also. Francis Fukuyama identified neoconservatism with Leninism during 2006.[20] He wrote that neoconservatives:

"…believed that history can be pushed along with the right application of power and will. Leninism was a tragedy in its Bolshevik version, and it has returned as farce when practiced by the United States. Neoconservatism, as both a political symbol and a body of thought, has evolved into something I can no longer support."

Of course this is Wikipedia, but I'm struggling to get my head around this one. I'm not sure I see even the beginnings of similarity between Neo-Conservatism and Trotskyism, and it strikes me that proponents of both would be offended by the suggestion.

[The Modern Prometheus]

Bullshit. They where not Trotskyists they just merged Neo-Liberalism with far right Conservatism (farther right then the traditional Tories) which started in the 70's and advanced rapidly in the 80's with Reagan and Thatcher.

I am not a fan of alot of parties calling themselves Trotskyists but this charge is just bullshit.

[Counterculturalist]

I've always been puzzled by the association of Trotskyism with neoconservatism; I thought it was simply a slur used by left-wing anti-Trotskyists to discredit them, with people like Hitchens as the only evidence in its favor.

The fact that our own Carlos-Marcos used to call posters here "neoconservative Trots" doesn't do the idea any favors, either.

I'm not well-versed enough in Trotsky to be able to point out any specific similarities in theory; the idea of spreading socialism throughout the world might be superficially analogous to spreading American capitalism throughout the world, but clearly Trotsky was hardly the only communist to view socialism in one country as illegitimate, so that's really grasping for straws.

In fact, that's how I'd characterize the arguments you quote: grasping for straws, trying a little too hard to make a case. Lind in particular with his allegations of a conspiracy of Jewish Trotskyist intellectuals sounds like a tinfoil-hat-wearer. (In fact, I had to double-check that he wasn't William Lind, one of the bigger proponents of the Frankfurt School conspiracy theories!)

Any other insight into this would be appreciated, though.

[G4b3n]

It is my understanding that the ideological roots of the Neo-cons can be traced back to what was called the "neo-confederacy" in the mid 20th century. Which were Democratic party members who opposed Kennedy and critically supported LBJ, and were often active in supporting the AFL-CIO but were viciously racist in their opposition to civil rights and support of white supremacy. They were also members of the NRA who support strict gun control laws in a racist reaction against panther party open carry tactics. And were responsible for the last major historical realignment of the two major parties after their support fully shifted to the republican party by the 1970s and we see the current Republican south that we know today.

I would have to see well document sources linking Trots to any of this. Yes, plenty of the old conservative racists were labor activists, but not communists as far as I know.

[The Modern Prometheus]

I honestly have no fucking idea where that comes from. While i have differences with some of what Trotsky wrote he certainly would have hated global Neo-Liberalism. I believe the Socialism in one country method proposed by Lenin to be more viable but the ultimate goal is still international revolution.

[#FF0000]

Uh, a lot of former Trotskyists became anti-communists later in life. It's not that difficult to wrap one's head around.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Ah yes, Lenin's theory of socialism in one country

[Comrade Jacob]

Uh, it's a lot of former Trotskyists who became anti-communists later in life. It's not that difficult to wrap one's head around.

Many Trotskyists turn against the whole idea of communism which is not surprising to me. Trotskyites cannot even agree on their own theories.

[#FF0000]

Many Trotskyists turn against the whole idea of communism which is not surprising to me. Trotskyites cannot even agree on their own theories.

It's nothing unique to Trotskyism. You don't think a marxist-leninist ever changed their mind?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Unlike all the other factions who uniformly agree on everything

[Comrade Jacob]

It's nothing unique to Trotskyism. You don't think a marxist-leninist ever changed their mind?

Not many take a 180

[#FF0000]

Not many take a 180

"Not many", but the dozen or so former Trotskyists who became arch-conservatives are enough to indict all of trotskyism?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I was an ML for years and I didn't really understand anything about marx's writing until after I stopped chasing parties and started studying on my own without someone constantly leading me with an approved interpretation. Since the left in the west has been reduced to academic shitslinging coalitions, there is literally nothing for them to do but argue and switch stances on issues for purely bullshit tactical reasons or for the sake of individual rivalries. That includes every political organization regardless of which writers they like to talk about.

[Counterculturalist]

This quote from Wikipedia, though:


The term "neoconservative" refers to those who made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist left to the camp of American Conservatism.

So an integral part of the designation "neoconservative" involves being an ex-leftist, and specifically an ex anti-Stalinist leftist? I'm skeptical.

[newdayrising]

A bunch of trotskyists became right wingers, so what? Leftists of all kinds became right wingers of all kinds. It may not be the case in the US, but in Latin American and European Politics there are tons of right wing/liberal politicians and pundits who've been in the Communist Party, for instance.
I think it's a bit facile to try and make a connection between their original ideologies and the current ones in order to explain their shift. The fact is that a whole bunch of people dropped out of left wing politics during the 80's and part of them became conservative. Most probably didn't.
Sometimes there's clearly a connection, like when left wing nationalists become right wing nationalists. I don't think there's one in this particular case though. Other than being somewhat critical of the USSR and being a militant of some sort, there's nothing significant in common.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

This quote from Wikipedia, though:



So an integral part of the designation "neoconservative" involves being an ex-leftist, and specifically an ex anti-Stalinist leftist? I'm skeptical.


It looks like their source is from a collection of memoirs written by neocons, and the specific essay is just from a dude who did happen go from the left to neo conservatism. Hardly relevant to the overwhelming majority of neocons who did not come from that background. Someone with a wikipedia account contest that nonsense and get it removed.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's well known that the key intellectuals of neoconservatism (William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, David Horowitz etc) came from left-wing backgrounds. I'm not really sure what kind of implications that has, though...probably none. People's views change. Murray Bookchin for example went from being a Marxist-Leninist to Trotskyist to anarchist to supporting the Libertarian Party in the US.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

It might say something about fads within american intellectual culture, but says nothing about any specific ideology whether its trotskyism or neo-conservatism. How many of the actual actors of the neo-conservative era came from a leftist background, genuine question.

[Counterculturalist]

David Horowitz

Ugh. Intellectual is far too kind a word to describe Horowitz. His writing has all the sophistication of Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh... and perhaps even higher levels of racism. Certainly on my top-ten list of people I'd like to punch.

[Luís Henrique]

It's nothing unique to Trotskyism. You don't think a marxist-leninist ever changed their mind?

Most of the French "nouveau philosophes" used to be Maoists of some kind before turning to the right.

It has to do, probably, with what sect is most popular among intellectual pseudo-revolutionaries when the wind changes. Maoism was that in 1968 France; Trotskysm predominated in the US a bit later (1980? 1991?)

In Brazil the bulk of the "tankie" Communist Party became outright neoliberal reactionaries after the fall of their beloved Soviet Union.

Not really an important phenomenon, or an index of supposed crypto-reactionary tendencies within this or that "tendency".

Luís Henrique

[Left Voice]

Uh, a lot of former Trotskyists became anti-communists later in life. It's not that difficult to wrap one's head around.
It's not really a simple case of people changing their opinions, though. The article implies that Neo-Conservatism is some kind of logical development from Trotskyism, that Neo-Conservatism somehow evidently stems from Trotskyism. This is the suggestion that I'm struggling with.

[Luís Henrique]

It's well known that the key intellectuals of neoconservatism (William Kristol, Norman Podhoretz, David Horowitz etc) came from left-wing backgrounds.

Horowitz, for instance, was never a Trotskyist; he was close to the BPP, and his face-turn-heel came because he appointed a bookkeeper (Betty van Patter) to the BPP, who ended murdered because she discovered some kind of embezzlement scheme by the party's leadership. Out of guilt feelings, apparently, he started a personal anti-BPP crusade, that eventually led him to the far right.

Luís Henrique

[ñángara]

Any one may turncoat...


Trotsky's Children (http://trotskyschildren.blogspot.com/)

A former Trotskyist, now a Republican, looks back at his former comrades.



My interest in Trotskyist politics dates from my membership in the Young Socialist Alliance (YSA) and Socialist Workers Party (SWP) from 1969 until about 1977. My politics have since changed. In 1976 I voted for the SWP presidential ticket (Peter Camejo & Willie Mae Reid). In 1980 I voted for Jesse Jackson, then running as a 3rd party candidate. And in 1984 I cast the best vote I ever cast--I voted for Ronald Reagan. And I've never looked back since.



Well, I guess I have looked back. I've always followed the SWP's newspaper, The Militant. and in the mid 90s I hosted a blog (then called an "e-zine") called The Anti-Militant. That was posted at the long since defunct site, Geocities, and was on-line for maybe a couple of years. Unfortunately, I don't believe I have an archive of those articles, some of which were actually pretty good. I briefly resurrected the Anti-Militant (http://anti-militant.blogspot.com/), but nothing really came of it. It wasn't strictly about Trotskyism.


So now comes the third try. While this blog will be exclusively about Trotskyism, my interest is now broader than just the SWP, whose paper has gotten rather boring. More interesting are split-offs from the SWP, Socialist Action, Socialist Viewpoint, and Solidarity. Many of the people in these latter organizations were my comrades back in the 70s. I will also try to cover the Worker's World group, arguably the most successful Trotskyist organization in the US. But they split from the SWP before I joined, so I have no personal contact with them.


Anyway, as much as I oppose Marxism, I enjoy Marxist polemics and conversation. That's really what this is all about. None of these organizations will have any impact on America's future, so this effort is all just for fun. Nothing important here.


Here are some ground rules:


These people were my comrades and friends back in the 1970s. I like them. I wish them no personal ill and I don't want them mistreated. Thus ad hominem or insulting remarks are off-limits. On the other hand, vanguard party grouplets frequently descend into hilarious self-parody, so you'll have to excuse occasional ridicule.

...

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The term "neoconservative" specifically refers to former members of the SPA and similar organisations, both Shachtmanist and otherwise, who became aggressive supporters of American foreign policy. "State Department socialist", as the old quip went. In fact some of them never renounced what they called "socialism" - it is quite possible for someone to be at the same time a neoconservative and a social-democrat or "socialist" of some description. I also don't think this is something that should be hand-waved away. These were clever people; they ended up supporting Reagan and Bush not because they were stupid or venal but because they had a theory that the Soviet Union was "totalitarian", "bureaucratic-collectivist" etc. and that liberal democracy was preferable to the system in place in the Eastern Bloc.

It also doesn't make much sense to call these people Trotskyists. The oldest of them could be fairly called ex-Trotskyists - they split from Trotsky while the old man was still alive, precisely over the issue of defence of the Soviet Union.