How to make a revolution?

[OnFire]

Hello comrades,

lately I have been wondering what is the best way to topple the capitalist system nowadays and make a revolution.

I do not trust parties and parliament politics, as they are all part of the system and are just pretending to carry out the work of the poeple.

How could on individual best interrupt the society and disturb the public order - maybe destroying the system from within, or via direct action?

I am living in Europe, which complicates things. All members of communist groups in my area are in my opinion cowards who do not want revolution, but constant bickering and senseless discussions. They have no revolutionary spirit in them, the most is throwing stones at cops on May 1st, but no actual war against the system. I want to take part in an open revolt against the government, and not babble.

Do you think an armed insurrection is possible nowadays, especially in 1st world countries? What do you think?

[Tim Cornelis]

Revolution =/= Insurrection.

A social revolution involves the transformation of the social relationships of production. You consider your local communists cowards because they do not have the capacity to affect a revolution. Throwing stones isn't any more (or less) revolutionary than having discussions on politics.

[Slippers]

In times where revolutionary fervor isn't really there there are many things that you can do anyway - VERY worthwhile things.

Like, feeding the hungry and creating safe spaces undoing Capitalist damage. Organizations like, say, Food Not Bombs do a lot of good work in that respect. Not saying that you don't already do such things.

Just don't underrate the importance and utility of such things.

[Bee]

I think socialist groups and individuals need to work on building class consciousness in the united states before we can start a revolution.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

In times where revolutionary fervor isn't really there there are many things that you can do anyway - VERY worthwhile things.

Like, feeding the hungry and creating safe spaces undoing Capitalist damage. Organizations like, say, Food Not Bombs do a lot of good work in that respect. Not saying that you don't already do such things.

Just don't underrate the importance and utility of such things.
Whilst, yeah, the whole reason I became a socialist was because I recognised the flaws in society and wanted to help people so I encourage people to get involved in things like food banks etc (locally, the socialist organisation that I belong to gives free advice to benefits claimants to help them avoid sanctions and things, for example) but at the same time I don't think revolutionary organisations should become charities. Not that that's what you're implying, I just feel that sometimes it becomes a fine line and charity doesn't fundamentally challenge the system of capital, revolution does. The Black Panthers are a good example here because they not only organised soup kitchens and stuff but also defended themselves against the police, encouraged development of class conciousness and self-education etc enough so that the state did virtually everything it could to crush them from within and without.

Obviously, you can't just click your fingers and have a revolutionary movement so you need to gauge the current ebbs and flows and consider how best to move forward.

[mushroompizza]

Well depends what tendency you are, each tendency has their theories, whether its class consciousness, spontaneity, or vangaurdism.

[Zoop]

By building a mass anarchist movement, through education, propaganda etc. Consciousness-raising efforts are vital. It can only be successful if the mass of workers know what to construct and implement once the state and capitalism have been overthrown. It can only be built from below, not above.

We can dismiss the statist methodologies advocated by authoritarian leftist fuckwits as moronically naive.

Also, during the violent phase of the revolution, we can use Stalinists and other political ignoramuses as human shields. They will, then, at least serve some useful purpose during the revolution, which is what they have always wanted.

We can dispose of them once it is done.

[Guardia Rossa]

We can dismiss the statist methodologies advocated by authoritarian leftist fuckwits as moronically naive.

Also, during the violent phase of the revolution, we can use Stalinists and other political ignoramuses as human shields. They will, then, at least serve some useful purpose during the revolution, which is what they have always wanted.

We can dispose of them once it is done.

*Hears stalinists loading their flame guns*

But seriously, was this really needed?

[Slippers]

Whilst, yeah, the whole reason I became a socialist was because I recognised the flaws in society and wanted to help people so I encourage people to get involved in things like food banks etc (locally, the socialist organisation that I belong to gives free advice to benefits claimants to help them avoid sanctions and things, for example) but at the same time I don't think revolutionary organisations should become charities. Not that that's what you're implying, I just feel that sometimes it becomes a fine line and charity doesn't fundamentally challenge the system of capital, revolution does. The Black Panthers are a good example here because they not only organised soup kitchens and stuff but also defended themselves against the police, encouraged development of class conciousness and self-education etc enough so that the state did virtually everything it could to crush them from within and without.

Obviously, you can't just click your fingers and have a revolutionary movement so you need to gauge the current ebbs and flows and consider how best to move forward.

I don't disagree with you. At all, actually. I hope I didn't give off the impression that I advocate liberal charity as a replacement for revolutionary action. Actually building more of a revolutionary front is a thing I wish such organizations actually did. And the black panthers are a good example of doing just that.

[Zoop]

*Hears stalinists loading their flame guns*

But seriously, was this really needed?

It was mostly posted for my own amusement, but it contains within it a serious issue which needs to be addressed. Anarchists, and Stalinists/other authoritarian "leftists", will not be able to co-operate during the revolution due to tensions and incompatible interests and methodologies.* Each side threatens the realisation of the other side's desired goal. In order for the uprising to be successful, our enemies have to be extirpated, and this includes, of course, authoritarian "leftists" and Stalinists.

*See roarmag's article from 22nd Oct 2011, entitled "Anarchists and communists clash in Athens - in pictures"

[oneday]

In order for the uprising to be successful, our enemies have to be extirpated, and this includes, of course, authoritarian "leftists" and Stalinists.

The authoritarian leftists will be extirpated by our authority.

[Comrade Jacob]

It was mostly posted for my own amusement, but it contains within it a serious issue which needs to be addressed. Anarchists, and Stalinists/other authoritarian "leftists", will not be able to co-operate during the revolution due to tensions and incompatible interests and methodologies.* Each side threatens the realisation of the other side's desired goal. In order for the uprising to be successful, our enemies have to be extirpated, and this includes, of course, authoritarian "leftists" and Stalinists.

*See roarmag's article from 22nd Oct 2011, entitled "Anarchists and communists clash in Athens - in pictures"

History has shown that Stalinist always beat you to the punch. You will be our human-shield.
lel

[Zoop]

History has shown that Stalinist always beat you to the punch. You will be our human-shield.
lel

You're too cute.

[Comrade Jacob]

You're too cute.

:wub:
but no, seriously, you will go to gulag

[Zoop]

but no, seriously, you will go to gulag

You just get more and more adorable.

I love it when Stalinists think they're being intimidating. So cute.

[Comrade Jacob]

You just get more and more adorable.

I love it when Stalinists think they're being intimidating. So cute.

:wub:
Not trying to scare you bro. Anarchists are the cutest, they think they are so revolutionary by smashing a bus stop.

[Zoop]

:wub:
Not trying to scare you bro. Anarchists are the cutest, they think they are so revolutionary by smashing a bus stop.

Yes, you've basically captured the essence of the whole anarchist movement there. Well done you little cutie pie. :rolleyes:

[Comrade Jacob]

Yes, you've basically captured the essence of the whole anarchist movement there. Well done you little cutie pie. :rolleyes:

I did actually. I missed out condescending arse-holes though.

[Zoop]

I did actually. I missed out condescending arse-holes though.

You have much to learn, young one. Stop resisting enlightenment.

You little teddy bear, you :wub:

[Comrade Jacob]

You have much to learn, young one. Stop resisting enlightenment.

You little teddy bear, you :wub:

Oooooooooooooooooooh!
*shots fired*

[Zoop]

*shots fired*

Resolving an argument like a true Stalinist ;)

[Comrade Jacob]

Resolving an argument like a true Stalinist ;)

We are so cute together. Anyway, I've posted enough on this thread.

[Zoop]

We are so cute together. Anyway, I've posted enough on this thread.

We'd make such a great couple.

Yeah me too. Later my love.

[G4b3n]

By building a mass anarchist movement, through education, propaganda etc. Consciousness-raising efforts are vital. It can only be successful if the mass of workers know what to construct and implement once the state and capitalism have been overthrown. It can only be built from below, not above.

We can dismiss the statist methodologies advocated by authoritarian leftist fuckwits as moronically naive.

Also, during the violent phase of the revolution, we can use Stalinists and other political ignoramuses as human shields. They will, then, at least serve some useful purpose during the revolution, which is what they have always wanted.

We can dispose of them once it is done.

Well.. Looks like you just let out the big secrete of the ultra leftist platform being kept secrete from the rest of us. Cats out the bag everyone, might as well split. *Opens history book to pages on the First International*

No need to be an anarcho-douchebag.

[Zoop]

No need to be an anarcho-douchebag.

You flatter me :wub:

[Slippers]

This topic was a lot more interesting when it wasn't yet another tendency war.

[Comrade Jacob]

This topic was a lot more interesting when it wasn't yet another tendency war.

Haha, that was partly my fault

[Sewer Socialist]

I think socialist groups and individuals need to work on building class consciousness in the united states before we can start a revolution.

Well, you didn't specify the means by which you see class consciousness being built, so we might well be in agreement, but I don't think the two can really be separated.

The way I see it, class consciousness is built through class struggle. Class struggle already exists in daily life, it is observable, I recognize that I experience it daily, and so does an entire class of people. You are right to notice that consciousness is not currently at revolutionary levels. However, there exists some level of consciousness, which already produces the conscious struggles we see today - the struggle over race and the police, the struggle over minimum wage, to give a couple examples. These struggles polarize society; they force people to pick a side. They build consciousness.

The newly-built consciousness builds revolution; revolution builds consciousness. I'm tempted to quote your avatar. :)

[John Nada]

Hello comrades,Hi
lately I have been wondering what is the best way to topple the capitalist system nowadays and make a revolution.You and every other revolutionary socialist wonder the same thing.
I do not trust parties and parliament politics, as they are all part of the system and are just pretending to carry out the work of the poeple.This is likely true. But maybe there's other people who think the same.
How could on individual best interrupt the society and disturb the public order - maybe destroying the system from within, or via direct action?Wow now, slow down there! You have to crawl before you can run.:) Whatever is the best way is, it will be decided by the masses involved. This isn't something that one person just conjures up into existence, let alone finds from random strangers online.
I am living in Europe, which complicates things. All members of communist groups in my area are in my opinion cowards who do not want revolution, but constant bickering and senseless discussions. They have no revolutionary spirit in them, the most is throwing stones at cops on May 1st, but no actual war against the system. I want to take part in an open revolt against the government, and not babble.Hey, that's more revolutionary spirit than most.:unsure: What is the bickering about? Surely if all that stands in the way of you and global revolution is people arguing, there's some simple, safe, not stupid steps to take. How about just talking and listening to people? Surely if they're going to get a supermajority in parliament you'd have to know what the voters want?:grin:
Do you think an armed insurrection is possible nowadays, especially in 1st world countries? What do you think?1.Yes.

2.If you have to ask, don't.

[OnFire]

Thank you all for your insightful answers, but what should I as an individual do to disturb public order? What about sabotage (railways, power, bomb threats) ? Would this be a good way to hassle the capitalist system?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Thank you all for your insightful answers, but what should I as an individual do to disturb public order? What about sabotage (railways, power, bomb threats) ? Would this be a good way to hassle the capitalist system?
No. Outside a revolutionary civil war situation, such things are pointless.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Get out there and push that worker's paper like you're pushing product

[Thirsty Crow]

Okay, that's about it. Verbal warning to Zoop and Comrade Jacob for a spectacularly terrible derailing of the thread with flaming and tendency childishness.

[cyu]

This topic was a lot more interesting when it wasn't yet another tendency war.


How not to make a revolution :lol:

[cyu]

How could on individual best interrupt the society and disturb the public order - maybe destroying the system from within, or via direct action?

One person is never enough to overthrow a system by force. In order to overthrow a system, you'll need people on your side - so that's where propaganda comes in. The more people on your side, the more likely you'll succeed. If 100% of the people were on your side, then the revolution would be over before you even realize it. Most revolutions don't use propaganda to the 100% mark though - some time before that, there's enough people on your side to overthrow the system using direct action - and people usually prefer that shortcut than trying to convince the last few stragglers using propaganda.

Does this mean you need to save direct action until the very end, when you're already close to a large percentage? No, it can be used even if you are a lone revolutionary. In the past, anarchists have used propaganda of the deed to assassinate people - this of course can be done by single revolutionaries, but if you haven't yet achieved revolutionary critical mass, propaganda of the deed should be judged by how likely it is to bring the revolution to critical mass. I would consider actions like Edward Snowden as a type of propaganda of the deed that has a high effect rate.

What police officers do to rapists, for example, is basically "armed direct action" - they're obviously not trying to convince rapists to change with words - they go after them with weapons. They are able to do this because they already have enough of society "on their side". The same is true of other types of "armed direct action" - if you have enough of society already on your side, people would even be cheering you on.

[BIXX]

Holy fuck that argument tho

"You're so ridiculous and stupid, its cute"
"No u"
"No u"

Jesus Christ the worst part is that I see this in real life.

Anyway. On topic: I don't think we have any chance no hope so deciding the best way has a lot to do with what creates the most substantial increase in autonomy and destruction imo.

[Rafiq]

Thank you all for your insightful answers, but what should I as an individual do to disturb public order? What about sabotage (railways, power, bomb threats) ? Would this be a good way to hassle the capitalist system?

Marginal acts of individual terrorism that seek to 'disturb' the public order are reserved solely for the anti-social petite-bourgeoisie. This is why all school shootings, all lone-wolf massacres, and civilian targeted bombings are orchestrated by the anti-social petite-bourgeois reactionaries.

When we speak of destroying the public order, we speak of doing so while pre-supposing its existence and our part in it - we do not do it from the "outside". That is to say, the proletariat happens to compromise a large part of the "public order", and to act against it divorced from their energy is reactionary. The antagonisms from which Communism arises, are antagonisms that are absolutely contingent upon this world, this "public space". By in part, the only reason the Bolsheviks went underground is because they had to - it was never preferable, it just happened to be a necessity for the same reason the political bourgeoisie had to organize in secret during the late ancien regime - as the Russian Empire was not a liberal democracy.

The Mensheviks decried them for their "illegality" when in fact building a worker's movement was necessarily illegal.

The difference today is that no such antagonism - between the old autocracy and modern bourgeois society exists. So there is nothing you can do individually to "hassle the capitalist system" besides learn. Learn what it means to trot around calling yourself a Communist, to bare the legacy of our historic tradition. That is all you can do, presently.

[BIXX]

Marginal acts of individual terrorism that seek to 'disturb' the public order are reserved solely for the anti-social petite-bourgeoisie. This is why all school shootings, all lone-wolf massacres, and civilian targeted bombings are orchestrated by the anti-social petite-bourgeois reactionaries.


I take it you don't care much for the theory of bloom?

[Rafiq]

I might confess my complete unfamiliarity with it. It's relevance?

[OnFire]

Marginal acts of individual terrorism that seek to 'disturb' the public order are reserved solely for the anti-social petite-bourgeoisie. This is why all school shootings, all lone-wolf massacres, and civilian targeted bombings are orchestrated by the anti-social petite-bourgeois reactionaries.

When we speak of destroying the public order, we speak of doing so while pre-supposing its existence and our part in it - we do not do it from the "outside". That is to say, the proletariat happens to compromise a large part of the "public order", and to act against it divorced from their energy is reactionary. The antagonisms from which Communism arises, are antagonisms that are absolutely contingent upon this world, this "public space". By in part, the only reason the Bolsheviks went underground is because they had to - it was never preferable, it just happened to be a necessity for the same reason the political bourgeoisie had to organize in secret during the late ancien regime - as the Russian Empire was not a liberal democracy.

The Mensheviks decried them for their "illegality" when in fact building a worker's movement was necessarily illegal.

The difference today is that no such antagonism - between the old autocracy and modern bourgeois society exists. So there is nothing you can do individually to "hassle the capitalist system" besides learn. Learn what it means to trot around calling yourself a Communist, to bare the legacy of our historic tradition. That is all you can do, presently.

But isn't it possible for an individual, especially in our times, to make acts of violence against state institutions? Like attacking police buildings or politicans?

[Halert]

Okay, that's about it. Verbal warning to Zoop and Comrade Jacob for a spectacularly terrible derailing of the thread with flaming and tendency childishness.

Mods cracking down on forbidden love between an anarchist and a stalinist :laugh:

[Varroun]

The Red Army Faction got tired of awaiting. Observe their attempts at trying to incite revolution.

As Marxists we know you can't force a Revolution to happen. Random acts of violence isn't a revolution. Revolutions involve violence, but violence isn't what causes revolutions.

[John Nada]

But isn't it possible for an individual, especially in our times, to make acts of violence against state institutions? Like attacking police buildings or politicans?Sure it's possible. Wise no.

[OnFire]

Sure it's possible. Wise no.

Why would you think it is not wise to undermine the foundation of the capitalist rule ?

[Varroun]

Because your not undermining capitalist rule by committing individual acts of terror. Lenin himself spoke out against this and explained why it is foolish and actually hurts the movement.

[cyu]

Like attacking police buildings or politicans?

Besides employees seizing control of their workplaces, I'd recommend taking control of media outlets first - that's how you recruit and get the message out (and prevent capitalists from controlling the spin like they usually do). If politicians have no media platform, they basically just revert to normal citizen.

As for attacking police stations or military arsenals, I would only recommend that in self-defense - for example, if you've recruited enough people and need weapons to defend your workplaces and media outlets.

[Rafiq]

Why would you think it is not wise to undermine the foundation of the capitalist rule ?

What, practically, will you be doing besides making yourself feel better? No one cares to condemn you for such acts, but all they could ever amount to is meditation at best, and an infantile replacement for real politics at worst.

[OnFire]

What, practically, will you be doing besides making yourself feel better? No one cares to condemn you for such acts, but all they could ever amount to is meditation at best, and an infantile replacement for real politics at worst.

well, the Islamists are having quite some success with random acts of violence - I personally hate ISIL and the like, but they are making progress by having individuals randomly attack westerners, like in Tunisia.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i'm not sure its necessarily sensible to draw a comparison between the actions of an ultra-reactionary 'islamist' group and good practice for revolutionaries, nor would i term anything they do as 'progress'

[SonofRage]

No one really knows the answer to this question. It seems to me that so many are either stuck in 1917 Russia or 1933 Spain and think that they can apply a universal formula to get to revolution. Who saw the Arab Spring coming? Who saw Occupy Wall Street coming?

In my view, the best thing we can do is be organized, spend time struggling and studying so that, when something we never saw coming happens, we are prepared for it.

[John Nada]

well, the Islamists are having quite some success with random acts of violence - I personally hate ISIL and the like, but they are making progress by having individuals randomly attack westerners, like in Tunisia.What progress? Those attacks were preceded by an asswhipping from the YPG/J and allies, in the context of a broader war which is not random violence by a lone individual in fantasy land. A quasi-state in fantasy land, but still.

One thing I can say for certain, if you want to be a successful revolutionary, the first thing you have to do is talk about doing foolish shit online with strangers. That's what Lenin and Che said to do.:lol:

[cyu]

I picture Che going into countries and treating capitalism like a disease, then doing to diseases what doctors do to diseases.

[Alet]

But isn't it possible for an individual, especially in our times, to make acts of violence against state institutions? Like attacking police buildings or politicans?

well, the Islamists are having quite some success with random acts of violence - I personally hate ISIL and the like, but they are making progress by having individuals randomly attack westerners, like in Tunisia.

Do you remember the attack on the police station in Connewitz? Or the Blockupy riots? What exactly did they achieve? How was that progressive? Media will just badmouth such actions and people start talking bullshit about radical left-wings and compare them with right-wing extremists. At the moment violence won't help in any way. Leftists already have enough difficulty excusing such actions.