Che Guevera a Homophobe?

[uncontent_soul]

Online I see a lot if people bashing Ché saying he was a racist and a homophobe. Is this true? Ché was such a big inspiration but now I'm hearing he killed blacks and inprisoned gays.

[BIXX]

Online I see a lot if people bashing Ché saying he was a racist and a homophobe. Is this true? Ché was such a big inspiration but now I'm hearing he killed blacks and inprisoned gays.

You know, I am no scholar on Che, but I don't know that he did either of those things. I don't think he killed blacks, and if he did it would have been during his time in Africa where he was trying to kickstart a revolution so if he did it was probably for something like that.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I believe Che did express some racism as a very young man, but clearly he outgrew it. He was willing to put his own life on the line to fight alongside Black revolutionaries in Africa.

Homophobia was the default position just about everywhere back then, so Che hardly stands out. I imagine that had he lived longer, he might have come to repudiate homophobia just like his comrade Fidel Castro did.

[Sentinel]

Just to add to the above posts, Che not only fought alongside black revolutionaries in Africa but notably on Cuba as well, where the revolution removed much of the racist legacy of the colonialist era. It was then primarily black veterans from the revolution that followed him to take part in the conflict in Congo.

[Blake's Baby]

No lover of Che here but I've never seen any evidence that he was racist.

Yes he was a massive homophobe

[Armchair Partisan]

I think that in the 1960s, the "everyone else was a homophobe too" defense can no longer apply. LGBT liberation movements were quite relevant by that point, not to mention that Lenin and a whole bunch of communists had already embraced LGBT struggles by then. If Che was a homophobe, he deserves full condemnation for that (although I cannot actually answer the question with great certainty).

[Leo]

Homophobia was the default position just about everywhere back then, so Che hardly stands out. I imagine that had he lived longer, he might have come to repudiate homophobia just like his comrade Fidel Castro did.Like, change his and his state's position as if decades long repressions of LGBTs didn't happen with a petty "Sorry, we were wrong" only when the tide changed internationally and changing the position suited his interests, without even offering any repercussions for the victims? Yeah, it's possible he would have done that but no more.

[uncontent_soul]

I believe Che did express some racism as a very young man, but clearly he outgrew it. He was willing to put his own life on the line to fight alongside Black revolutionaries in Africa.

Homophobia was the default position just about everywhere back then, so Che hardly stands out. I imagine that had he lived longer, he might have come to repudiate homophobia just like his comrade Fidel Castro did.

I thought Fidel Castro il legalized homosexuality in Cuba and Mariela Castro is fighting to get rid of that law?

[Blake's Baby]

Don't know who Mariela Castro is.

Fidel may have legalised homosexuality - after 20 years of sending LGBT people to re-education camps. Does that mean those 20 years didn't happen?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Don't know who Mariela Castro is.
Fidel's niece. She's the director of the Cuban National Center for Sex Education, and an activist for LGBT issues.


after 20 years of sending LGBT people to re-education camps. Does that mean those 20 years didn't happen?
Of course not, but would you prefer that Cuba had continued sending LGBT people to re-education camps?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I thought Fidel Castro il legalized homosexuality in Cuba and Mariela Castro is fighting to get rid of that law?
Same-sex sexual relations were decriminalized in 1979. That status remains unchanged. Cuba also forbids employment discrimination against LGB people. Since 2008, Cuba has also provided free sex reassignment surgery for transgender people.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Like, change his and his state's position as if decades long repressions of LGBTs didn't happen with a petty "Sorry, we were wrong"
I think Fidel was sincere when he said Cuba's policies were wrong. His view in the 1960s that homosexuality was "bourgeois decadence" certainly was a common one on the Left, even in the US and Europe.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I think that in the 1960s, the "everyone else was a homophobe too" defense can no longer apply.
Even in the 1960s, homophobia was the dominant position within the Marxist Left.

[Tim Cornelis]

If Marielo Castro is fighting for marriage equality, then who is she fighting against? The Castro brothers, and the Communist Party, which has a monopoly on political power.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If Marielo Castro is fighting for marriage equality, then who is she fighting against? The Castro brothers, and the Communist Party, which has a monopoly on political power.
She pushed for legal recognition of gender changes, free hormone therapy, and free sex reassignment surgery, which were all eventually adopted by the CP, making Cuba the most progressive Latin American nation on those issues. So, it's a mixed bag when it comes to LGBT issues.

[consuming negativity]

he was a great dude and a great revolutionary who, to his death in the struggle, took some seriously fucked up views about homosexuals that we should be glad to have abandoned ourselves

we're adults, we should be able to admit that che was a human and not fall into black and white thinking.

[Sharia Lawn]

Even in the 1960s, homophobia was the dominant position within the Marxist Left.

Yes, and that tells me that the supposedly "Marxist" left of the 1960s was dominated by groups and governments with shitty politics, as they couldn't recognize even on paper the role of the heteronormative nuclear family in propping up capitalist relations.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Even in the 1960s, homophobia was the dominant position within the Marxist Left.

That's not much of an excuse. In the tens, support for the Democratic Party is the dominant position within the Marxist Left in the US - does this mean that we shouldn't criticise the politics of the CPUSA? And in any case the homophobia of the Stalinist parties was a step back from the revolutionary repeal of homophobic Tsarist laws by the Bolsheviks. (I'm also not sure if the PSP was that homophobic, compared to other parties in Cuba and the former PPC member F. Castro.)

I also don't understand why people go to such lengths to excuse Guevara, I mean if anyone said analogous things about Stalin or Mao they would get pounced on (quite correctly), but we can handwave Guevara's homophobia away with "everyone was a homophobe back then"?

[Durruti's friend]

Even in the 1960s, homophobia was the dominant position within the Marxist Left.
So what? I mean, if Bebel could argue for decriminalization of homosexuality in 1898,I don't get why Che would get a free pass half a century later, in the heyday of the gay liberation movement. Plus ffs, most of the "Marxist left" still is homophobic, transphobic, nationalist and/or racist to some extent. It's not an excuse.

I'd also like to second Xhar-Xhar in asking why leftists (especially the "libertarian" ones smh) care so much about a failed stalinist guerrilla leader from the 60s.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I also don't understand why people go to such lengths to excuse Guevara, I mean if anyone said analogous things about Stalin or Mao they would get pounced on (quite correctly), but we can handwave Guevara's homophobia away with "everyone was a homophobe back then"?
I'm not handwaving it away. I'm saying it existed but within his milieu his views on the subject were unremarkable. Should we demand more from people who claim to be revolutionaries? Yes. But Che's been dead longer than I've been alive, and I'd rather confront homo/bi/transphobic ideas in the revolutionary movements of 2015.

[HanoiJohn]

Sadly, no one is perfect. Thus one can admire a person's positives whilst acknowledging their negatives. Although Che may have been a homophobe, or even for argument's sake a murderer, he also overthrew the Batista regime. Love the sinner, hate the sin. It's important to remember to remember good people can do bad things, and the reverse. No vilification is legitimate; to err is human, after all; we focus on the good achieved.

Was Che a saint? no, but who are to demand sainthood from our idols? Admittedly, I have never shot a black, but nor have I took on the western hegemony and freed an entire nation. So for that, I hail him, regardless of what else he did.

As far as I know, he could have beat his wife, but he's not a role model for me, he's an important historical figure.

Che might have had his flaws, but he also had his positives. Understandably, people are angry at the possibility of bigotry on his part, but that doesn't mean you can't take inspiration from his actions in Cuba and elsewhere. Not to mention that fact it might not be true. That's another thing to remember: innocent until proven guilty.

~HanoiJane

[Comrade Jacob]

Yes he was a bit. Back then LGBT rights would have seemed ultra-leftist. Now we know better.

[Blake's Baby]

I'm not handwaving it away. I'm saying it existed but within his milieu his views on the subject were unremarkable. Should we demand more from people who claim to be revolutionaries? Yes. But Che's been dead longer than I've been alive, and I'd rather confront homo/bi/transphobic ideas in the revolutionary movements of 2015.

While you're right that it's more important to confront actions now than actions of people who've been dead for decades, part of the reason those ideas persisit is people now look at 'heroes' of the past and think that because Che and Fidel (for example) were homophobic maybe it isn't so bad now. And that is best fought by showing that Che and Fidel were wrong, isn't it?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So what? I mean, if Bebel could argue for decriminalization of homosexuality in 1898There was a French radical (whose name I sadly can't bring to mind at the moment) in the early 1800s whose views on sexuality would still be radical today, but that didn't stop Marx and Engels from holding backward views decades later.


I don't get why Che would get a free pass half a century later, in the heyday of the gay liberation movement.
The gay liberation movement didn't truly hit the map until after Stonewall, two years after Che's death. No one is giving Guevara a free pass. Denying he was homophobic would be that. I'm pointing out that there was a social context to his prejudice. He was born in the 1920s and raised in a culture steeped in machismo. He wasn't backwards in a sea of tolerance, he was a single drop of water in a sea of intolerance.

The question "was Che homophobic?" puts the problem on him as an individual rather than on the broader social and political milieus he existed within. Even more so since he's not alive to be challenged and self-criticize.

If Che was alive today and somehow found time to post on RevLeft, you can bet I would challenge his homophobia on the basis that a revolutionary's duty is to see through the prejudices of their culture.


I'd also like to second Xhar-Xhar in asking why leftists (especially the "libertarian" ones smh) care so much about a failed stalinist guerrilla leader from the 60s.He was an interesting historical figure, my disagreement with his politics aside.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

And that is best fought by showing that Che and Fidel were wrong, isn't it?
See my response to Durruti's friend.

[Sharia Lawn]

Danielle, what people are pointing out is that Che's homophobia was remarkable for the time. Remarkable when comparing his politics with a middle-class married couple in Levittown or any of a large number of Stalinists in power throughout the world (or their political bedfollows in various 'Marxist' parties)? Probably not.

Remarkable in terms of what a proper socialist could have been expected to support in view of already established precedents-Bebel, the Bolsheviks, and others-then yeah, your context argument sort of falls apart. And it does look like a backhanded way of apologizing for his backward prejudices.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I refuse to apologize for anyone's backward prejudices. It's why I left the last organization I belonged to.

[Sharia Lawn]

I refuse to apologize for anyone's backward prejudices. It's why I left the last organization I belonged to.

Then stop doing it here.