Why Is Ethnic Cleansing of Jews Acceptible?

[Slobo Is God]

Sharon plans to forcibly remove all Jews from Gaza.

[Se7en]

Originally posted by Slobo Is [email protected] 11 2004, 08:34 PM
Sharon plans to forcibly remove all Jews from Gaza.
First, He plans to remove all Israeli settlements...not just Jews.

Second, He is not exterminating them.

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by Se7en+Feb 12 2004, 01:39 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Se7en @ Feb 12 2004, 01:39 AM)
Slobo Is [email protected] 11 2004, 08:34 PM
Sharon plans to forcibly remove all Jews from Gaza.
First, He plans to remove all Israeli settlements...not just Jews.

Second, He is not exterminating them. [/b]
I never said exterminating. I said ethnic cleansing which includes forced removal. Sharon has said he plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza of all Jews. Again, I ask, why is this acceptible?

[Iepilei]

Americans moved all Native Americans to reservations - most far away from their native lands. Why was this acceptable?

[Individual]

They are all fighting over &#39;hocus pocus&#39; land anyway.

None of it has any meaning to any supernatural ...(holy shit.. what was that)... powers anyways

Over time ...(damnit, I think that was God)... thousands have died on those lands over something that ...(there it was again, good lord)... isn&#39;t even physically, psycologically, or spiritually real. I think we should just let them all live there and have an orgy. (Holy mother of Stupidshit, it wasn&#39;t God at all. It was just a big ass crack in my neighbors window.)

[Se7en]

Yes, their fight with each other is bullshit, but by removing the settlements the region may at least have some peace. I don&#39;t know why they can&#39;t coexist in one secular state. Stubborn religious folk.

Can&#39;t we all just get along?

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 01:56 AM
Americans moved all Native Americans to reservations - most far away from their native lands. Why was this acceptable?
It&#39;s not acceptible. Please stay on topic. This is the politics forum, not the history forum.

[Solace]

I never said exterminating. I said ethnic cleansing

exterminate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exterminate):
v 1: kill en masse; kill on a large scale; kill many; "Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, Communists, and homosexuals of Europe"

ethnic cleansing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic%20cleansing):
n.
The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.


Sharon has said he plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza of all Jews. Again, I ask, why is this acceptible?

Israelis. Maybe Jews. Maybe Muslims. Maybe Christians. But Israelis.

They are not a particular race or ethnic group.

Don&#39;t get lost in rethorics, bro&#39;.

[Pete]

Err.. What she said, and when is it right for a few thousand to be allowed to displace a few million?

Are you trying to support Milosovich through this innane logic?

Please try and keep the intelligence level on high, not on &#39;petty *****ing.&#39;

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 04:43 AM

I never said exterminating. I said ethnic cleansing

exterminate (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=exterminate):
v 1: kill en masse; kill on a large scale; kill many; "Hitler wanted to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, Communists, and homosexuals of Europe"

ethnic cleansing (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ethnic%20cleansing):
n.
The systematic elimination of an ethnic group or groups from a region or society, as by deportation, forced emigration, or genocide.


Sharon has said he plans to ethnically cleanse Gaza of all Jews. Again, I ask, why is this acceptible?

Israelis. Maybe Jews. Maybe Muslims. Maybe Christians. But Israelis.

They are not a particular race or ethnic group.

Don&#39;t get lost in rethorics, bro&#39;.
They are specifically not removing Israelis since Gaza is in Israel. They are forcibly removing all Jews. Arab Israelis are not being ethnically cleansed. The only people being ethnically cleansed are Jews who live in Gaza&#33;

[Voice of the Revolution]

What about the people temselves who are being moved? They are settling on the west bank, because they belive that all of israel should be Jewish. And that thus means the ethnic cleansing of the arabs. So to come to the defense of the settlers with the &#39;ethnic cleansing&#39; argument is a bit hypocritical.

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by Voice of the [email protected] 12 2004, 08:27 AM
What about the people temselves who are being moved? They are settling on the west bank, because they belive that all of israel should be Jewish. And that thus means the ethnic cleansing of the arabs. So to come to the defense of the settlers with the &#39;ethnic cleansing&#39; argument is a bit hypocritical.
Arabs are not being ethnically cleansed from pre-67 Israel or from Judea, Samaria and Gaza. Arabs serve in the Israeli Knesset.

However, Jews are being ethnically cleansed from Gaza. It&#39;s really not that hard to understand.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Something doesn&#39;t quite click here.

Ariel Sharon is the prime minister of Isreal, right?
He also happens to be a Jew, right?
He is moving Isrealis (Mostly Jews) out of the Gaza strip.
SiG thinks this is ethnic cleansing.

Jews ethnically cleansing themselves? Stupid.

[Intifada]

why is the ethnic cleansing of palestinians acceptable?

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 12:04 PM
Something doesn&#39;t quite click here.

Ariel Sharon is the prime minister of Isreal, right?
He also happens to be a Jew, right?
He is moving Isrealis (Mostly Jews) out of the Gaza strip.
SiG thinks this is ethnic cleansing.

Jews ethnically cleansing themselves? Stupid.
Sharon is an Atheist left-wing Jew who hates religious right-wing Zionist Jews.

He is ONLY ethnically cleansing Jews from Gaza and he is NOT ethnically cleansing Israeli Arabs from Gaza. Why is this so hard to understand?

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 02:00 PM
why is the ethnic cleansing of palestinians acceptable?
Israeli Arabs are not being ethnically cleansed from anywhere... :rolleyes:

Arabs are in the Israeli Knesset. And Arabs will continue to live in pre-67 Israel, Judea, Samaria, and Gaza.

[Intifada]

Sharon is an Atheist left-wing Jew

what a load of BS

he has been found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the sabra and shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood.

sharon&#39;s coalition government includes a party--molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all palestinians from the occupied territories. uzi cohen has also recently put forward a plan to expel all palestinians from "jewish" land by the next 20 years. if they havent left voluntarily, he says that they will be expelled by force.

recently-declassified documents indicate that david ben-gurion approved of the forced expulsion of arabs from all palestininan territory in 1948.

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 04:03 PM

Sharon is an Atheist left-wing Jew

what a load of BS

he has been found by an Israeli court to be "personally and directly responsible" for the sabra and shatilla massacre in Lebanon where more than a thousand innocent palestinian men, women, and children were axed to death or lined up and shot in cold blood.

sharon&#39;s coalition government includes a party--molodet--which advocates ethnic cleansing by openly calling for the forced expulsion of all palestinians from the occupied territories. uzi cohen has also recently put forward a plan to expel all palestinians from "jewish" land by the next 20 years. if they havent left voluntarily, he says that they will be expelled by force.

recently-declassified documents indicate that david ben-gurion approved of the forced expulsion of arabs from all palestininan territory in 1948.
You live in a capitalist fantasy world. Arabs aren&#39;t being ethnically cleansed form anywhere. Arabs are in the Israeli Knesset and Arabs will soon be a majority in pre-67 Israel. You should try joining reality.

[Intifada]

Arabs aren&#39;t being ethnically cleansed form anywhere. Arabs are in the Israeli Knesset and Arabs will soon be a majority in pre-67 Israel. You should try joining reality.

is that all you can say. :huh:

in 1948, there were about 600000 jews in palestine. the number of palestinians driven out from the territory taken by israel in 1947-1949 is estimated at 600000 to 720000; about 100000 Palestinians remained.

without driving most of the arabs out, then, or without prohibiting their return after the war, no jewish majority could have been established.

ethnic cleansing happens when israel connects the jewish settlement of kiryat arba with that of hebron by a promenade which cuts the heart of palestinian hebron and necessitates the demolition of scores of palestinian houses along the route, described as "uninhabited" or as being "shelter to terrorists".

ethnic cleansing happens when israel builds a "security" fence on palestinian fields, cutting them from their owners; the farmers cannot access their land and are forced to find their living elsewhere.

ethnic cleansing happens when settlers terrorise the palestinian village of khirbet yanun, break into houses destroying whatever they find; 3 years ago, only two old men were left of the whole village, the rest of its population had taken refuge in the neighbouring town of akrabeh.

so dont keep giving me that bullshit that "Arabs are in the Israeli Knesset and Arabs will soon be a majority in pre-67 Israel", because its utter crap.

[Pete]

**Moved to OI**

[Solace]

Something doesn&#39;t quite click here.

Indeed. SIG has a particular talent when it comes to twist reality.

Some info are missing.

Ariel Sharon said he wants to ‘relocate’ around 8 000 people from settlements in Gaza, that are considered illegal under international law.

More than 1 millions of Palestinians live in Gaza. Israel controls the third of the territoty.

This week, the minister of Defense said that the army forces will stay in settlements, even if the people who they are ‘protecting’ left.

I don’t know what is going on under the table, but there is surely something.

[Slobo Is God]

http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/...ics.html#000163 (http://www.israel-commentary.org/archives/cat_american_politics.html#000163)

The Middle East is rapidly becoming Jewish-free. A look at the reasons why, helps to put into perspective the debate about Palestinian refugees from Israel. The number of Jews in the Muslim Middle East stood at 1.5 million after World War II. Today it stands at 40,000, of which fewer than 5,000 remain in Arab countries.

· Jews in Morocco declined from 285,000 to 5,700&#33;
· Jews in Tunisia declined from 110,000 to 1,500&#33;
· Jews in Algeria declined from 140,000 to less than 100&#33;
· Jews in Egypt declined from 75,000 to less than 100&#33;
· Jews in Syria from 30,000 to less than 100&#33;
· Jews in Lebanon from 20,000 to less than 100&#33;

http://www.io.com/~freeman/updates/830.htm

There are fewer than 50,000 Christian Arabs living within the Palestinian Authority. In 1948, Bethlehem was 80 percent Christian. Today it is 80 percent Muslim. Where do they go?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/3518...anon020300.html (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Agora/3518/lebanon020300.html)

The Hizb&#39;allah, the Islamic "party of god," has
promised to execute all members of the primarily
Christian SLA who do not defect, and the
Syrian-controlled Lebanese government in Beirut has
promised to support them.

"We are together with the resistance fighters, and are
willing to sacrifice lives in our struggle for the
liberation of our land from occupation," Lebanese
President Emile Lahud said in an interview this week.

http://www.satribune.com/archives/feb17_23...nion_bertil.htm (http://www.satribune.com/archives/feb17_23_03/opinion_bertil.htm)

IMAGINE how it would be like when 25 million people vanish from a projected population of 39 million. Imagine how it would be like when two and a half million acres of prime land is grabbed from a country smaller in size than the State of Wisconsin.

Imagine how it would be like when one is subjected to rape, unending torture, forced conversion, discrimination in education and employment, intimidation to practice one&#39;s own religious faith, loot, arson and other savageries of worst kind.

This is the story of the Hindus, Buddhists, Christians, and the ethnic minorities of Bangladesh -- a story of slow genocide, a story of violence and betrayal by their own government, a testament of hard-line Islamic politicking designed to minority cleansing, a continuing saga that has played out since 1947 to the present day Bangladesh.

* * *

"She is not going to be the last [suicide bomber] because the march of resistance will continue until the Islamic flag is raised, not only on the minarets of Jerusalem, but over the whole universe," Hamas leader Mahmoud Zahar.

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 07:22 PM

Something doesn&#39;t quite click here.

Indeed. SIG has a particular talent when it comes to twist reality.

Some info are missing.

Ariel Sharon said he wants to ‘relocate’ around 8 000 people from settlements in Gaza, that are considered illegal under international law.

More than 1 millions of Palestinians live in Gaza. Israel controls the third of the territoty.

This week, the minister of Defense said that the army forces will stay in settlements, even if the people who they are ‘protecting’ left.

I don’t know what is going on under the table, but there is surely something.
Why is it illegal for Jews to live in Gaza? Did Nazis pass a law that says Jews can&#39;t live in Gaza?

[Intifada]

the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel&#39;s third largest political party) openly advocates a &#39;Final Solution&#39; to annihilate the Palestinians? Speaking at the widely broadcast sermon marking the last Passover, he declared of the Palestinians: "The Lord shall return their deeds on their own heads, waste their seed and exterminate them, devastate them and vanish them from this world. It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable."


Imagine how it would be like when one is subjected to rape, unending torture, forced conversion, discrimination in education and employment, intimidation to practice one&#39;s own religious faith, loot, arson and other savageries of worst kind.

yeah, because that is what palestinians are faced with.

Suicide bombings are not about religion. They are about people who have no hope in life, who are driven by the suffering, the pain to use their own bodies to call attention to their cause. If the Palestinians had the power to really hurt Israelis militarily, there is no doubt in my mind that they would attack and regain their land and kick the agressors out. They do not have rockets, they have no tanks, no gunships, no helicopters, no armored jeeps. They have their own bodies and home-made explosives. And under international law they have the right to resist the occupation through military means. I do not feel it is my place to condemn them choosing to resist by all means necessary, although I really do not feel that the violence would solve this conflict.

the following was written by an israeli..


The Israelis have done everything possible to kill the economy here (80-90% level of unemployment) through a number of actions (such as simply digging up the main streets of towns to kill off the shops by cutting the traffic through the area). Travel is impossible -- a trip that used to take 10 minutes, now takes 3 hours to a full day due the roadblocks everywhere (mounds of dirt across major roads) and checkpoints. The other day coming from Jerusalem, a trip that normally takes 1.5 hours took 5 as my bus was pulled over by 18 year old boy soldiers who they decided to harass a bunch of palestinian men.

In May 1948 the Zionists proclaimed the State of Israel as the homeland for the world&#39;s Jews. In 1947 Jews had formed less than a third of Palestine&#39;s population. Even within the portion of Palestine allocated by the 1947 UN partition plan to the “Jewish state”, Arabs were the majority. Zionists claim that the Arabs&#39; rejection of the partition plan means that the Palestinian Arabs have only themselves to blame for the further seizure of land by Israel between 1948 and 1949 (and, additionally in 1967).

Zionists also claim that Palestinians would not have been evicted from their homes in the 1948-49 “war on independence” had neighbouring Arab states not fought with Israel (in fact, these states, which were backed by Britain, attempted to seize Palestine for themselves). But already by 1948, there were 300,000 Palestinian refugees from Israel.

Immediately after the 1948 war, almost 400,000 hectares of Palestinian land was confiscated by the Israeli state. Between 1948 and 1976, an additional 110,000 hectares were taken.

Israel&#39;s June 1967 war against Syria, Egypt and Jordan allowed the Zionist state to push its borders outward dramatically, taking over the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Palestinians who had already been turned into refugees were forced to flee once more.

Sharon&#39;s “serious plan” is to permanently station Israeli troops within the borders of the West Bank to create a “buffer zone”, and thus to ethnically cleanse more Palestinians from Palestinian land.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 01:56 AM
Americans moved all Native Americans to reservations - most far away from their native lands. Why was this acceptable?
It was not, and was the most shameful period of american history

[Vinny Rafarino]

I reckon then it&#39;s safe to say that during the fall of Siagon, the yanqui troops being removed were being "ethnically cleansed".


I don&#39;t think you have thought this topic through my son. I think you ran across, on another message board perhaps, some silly thoery that you think is some wonderful "epiphany".


Whoops, you were wrong. Your rantings did give us a laugh though.

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 12 2004, 09:49 PM
I reckon then it&#39;s safe to say that during the fall of Siagon, the yanqui troops being removed were being "ethnically cleansed".


I don&#39;t think you have thought this topic through my son. I think you ran across, on another message board perhaps, some silly thoery that you think is some wonderful "epiphany".


Whoops, you were wrong. Your rantings did give us a laugh though.
If there&#39;s anything that&#39;s amusing, it&#39;s the fact that you claim to be a Communist when actually you are a Nazi. I&#39;m still waiting to hear why ethnic cleansing of Jews in Gaza is acceptible.

[Osman Ghazi]

When the U&#036; kicks out Mexicans who have illegally immigrated, is that ethnic cleansing? No.

Likewise, when Sharon decides that he has to make concessions and says that the illegal and universally condemned settlements have to be dismantled, is it ethnic cleansing? No.

Another note: Sharon is hardly a self-hating jew and he hardly thinks of aryans as a master race, so I don&#39;t think he is quite qualified to be a Nazi. Except of course that Zionism is equivalent to National Socialism.

Besides which, he and his elite &#39;retribution&#39; squad (which wiped out whole Arab villages as retribution for attacks on Israeli settlements) were the ones who paved the way for Jewish settlement on the West Bank of the Jordan.

[shintso]

all of you need to understand one thing. israe, as is many contries in this world, is diveded in its opinion. some israelis are peace-loving militery hating hippis and some land-crazed rednecks. but since the country is democratic, the majority is what counts. in is israel the majority thinks the palestine people should have their own teritory, their own country, their own everything. but in order to clear the desk for all of the indepedence paperwork, the terror orginizations must cease to be. the terrorist are but a small part of the palestine people. not all of them are crazed suaciders, the majoraty of them wants to work and excist with dignity. the problem is the terrorist exploit israel when it allows palesnites to come and work in its territory, and israel therfore must retaliate.
the best way to solve this conflict is simple - a 10 ft. wall with barbed wires and mines on both sides.
but, you cant put up a wall with jewish settlers on the the other side. these settlers are the leach of our society. sharon plans to move them, than separate gaza with a nice little wall. the western world will support the palestiniane people economicly the same way it did with israel and we will have two nations with two countries and no more children casualties on both sides.

[Osman Ghazi]

I think that the best thing Israel could do is not retaliate at all. They claim to be a soveriegn, democratic nation but they act like a bunch of babies who hit back when they get hit. It is an endless cycle. As long as people keep hitting back, (and i doubt that hamas is about to stop) it will never end. If the Palestinians were just left alone, they wouldn&#39;t support terrorists, would they?

Besides, how many Israelis have been killed by terrorists in the whole of the countries history? Maybe 500.
That isn&#39;t a number to go get worked up about.

[shintso]

the former chief rabbi of Israel, Rabbi Ovadia Yossef, who is also a founder and spiritual leader of the religious Shas party (Israel&#39;s third largest political party) openly advocates a &#39;Final Solution&#39; to annihilate the Palestinians?

what the #^%# are you talking about?
Ovadya Yossef is a laughing matter in israel. he was never chief rabbi of anything, and shas is not even in the top 8 parties in israel&#39;s politics.
final solution cries from israel is the voice of the extremists. these people are allowed to say what they want but not to act. israel has succefully put a stop to every israeli underground militia.

my god where do you people come up with all of this crap about israel. we&#39;re no saints but i am damn sure as hell we are the most liberal people in the world, and i challange anyone to prove me different

[Osman Ghazi]

You stopped Kahane Chai did you now?

Besides, everyone knows that the Dutch are the most liberal. How many other countires have legalized marijuana?

Zero&#33;&#33;&#33;

[shintso]

I think that the best thing Israel could do is not retaliate at all. They claim to be a soveriegn, democratic nation but they act like a bunch of babies who hit back when they get hit. It is an endless cycle. As long as people keep hitting back, (and i doubt that hamas is about to stop) it will never end. If the Palestinians were just left alone, they wouldn&#39;t support terrorists, would they?
that is true. the retaliation is an endless vicous bloody cycle. unfortunatly it is also a matter of national security. israel doesnt off kindergardens and clubs. we terminate ticking time bomb and murderers. the ticking time bombs are terrorist who the intellegance believe are about to perform a terrorist act (i have absolute trust in our intellegance).
dont forget the national factor. the people&#39;s spirit&#33; i think its dumb, but if a politician wants to be elected he must let the people know that they wont be sitting ducks, that he is not afraid.
also this is where the wall comes into action, no terror bombings means no retaliation.


Besides, how many Israelis have been killed by terrorists in the whole of the countries history? Maybe 500.
That isn&#39;t a number to go get worked up about.

400 casualtise since 2000. and that doesnt include injuries (i dont know about but a life as a plant or in a wheelchair is not a life). since 1948? alot more... and that doesnt include wars.

[Osman Ghazi]

Really? That many? And I most definately would not include wars because that is a much different situation.
Personally I am an Arab Socialist in that I support the idea of a Pan-Arab state. I just don&#39;t understand why they feel they need to have 20 or so countries when they are all the same people.

What stops them from getting past the wall?

[shintso]

You stopped Kahane Chai did you now?

Besides, everyone knows that the Dutch are the most liberal. How many other countires have legalized marijuana?

Zero&#33;&#33;&#33;
damn right we did&#33; after Baruch goldstien and his stupid ass terror act. did you ever hear the story about altalena? if not ill be glad to tell you about it,

The dutch?&#33; im talking about liberal people as in letting some of our politicians say outloud words of trison. im talking about acting under a terror attack&#33; not being a fucking pothead&#33; whats liberal about that?&#33; the fact that they drick coffee with weed. ohhhhhhhh. give them a nobel peace prize. they dont fight - they get high

[Osman Ghazi]

No I haven&#39;t heard but I&#39;d love to.

As for the second, I&#39;m pretty sure it is considered quite liberal to be anti-war which would make the Dutch...liberal by my count.

If your talking lack of punishment for treason, try my country Canada. If your in the military and they find you guilty of treason, they still can&#39;t use the death penalty on you. Besides, in most western states, there hasn&#39;t been a treason charge in years.

[shintso]

What stops them from getting past the wall?
snipers


Really? That many? And I most definately would not include wars because that is a much different situation.
Personally I am an Arab Socialist in that I support the idea of a Pan-Arab state. I just don&#39;t understand why they feel they need to have 20 or so countries when they are all the same people.

there is a huge difference between the countries. laungage, religous believes (some are Shiais and some are sonis), but the biggest one is, who controls most of the oil. must arab contries are poor, why should saudi arabia join them?
there is what is called the arabian league. the un of the middle east (except for israel). but one whole country, no that&#39;ll never work. lebanians hate syria. iran hate iraq. iraq hate saudi arabia. nobody likes the peace treaty between israel and jordan and egypt. it just wouldnt work.

[Osman Ghazi]

There aren&#39;t many Shia Arabs. They are mostly from Iran which is Persian and not Arabic. I believe Oman has a mostly Shiite population.

As for the others, they are petty national rivalries and should be cast aside in favour of cultural brotherhood. There actually was a short-lived United Arab Rebuplic under Gemal Abdul Nasser but it was just Egypt and Syria.

Language is all the same: Arabic.

Arab League is definately too weak to unite them though.

Are Palestinians simply not allowed in Israel? Non-citizens, I mean.

[shintso]

QUOTE]No I haven&#39;t heard but I&#39;d love to.[/QUOTE]
at the end of the forties, israel and its arab naighbors made a truse deal. each of the countries will fall back to its original borders and will not arm themsleves.
at that time israel hosted several underground terror orgenaization called the "etzel" and the "lehi". the etzel disregarded the truse and imported guns among a ship called altalena. the government order the ship to turn back and for the etzel to surrender itself, and after it refused, the militery drowned altalena, killing or imprinsoning all etzel followers. after that all israeli terrorist groups were terminated (imprisoned, not executed).
so there you have it. lets see the palesteinian people take care of their own terrorist orgenaization.


If your talking lack of punishment for treason, try my country Canada. If your in the military and they find you guilty of treason, they still can&#39;t use the death penalty on you. Besides, in most western states, there hasn&#39;t been a treason charge in years

in israel you can do whatever you like... no death penalty, "life" means twenty years in jail. we have terrorists with blood on their hands that are about to be set free after they &#39;&#39;0served their sentences".

[shintso]

Language is all the same: Arabic.
there is a big differance between spoken arabic and literatue arabic. the literature is the same, but every country has its own unique spoken language. for instence an egyptian and a jordanian can only speak inj literature arabic, that because their spoken arabic has different dialict.
i&#39;ve studied literature arabic. its a bit similler to hebrew, but most of the spoken languages are completelly different.

[Osman Ghazi]

Really? Huh, I guess you learn new things every day.
Weren&#39;t eztel and lehi active in Palestine during the 30s and 40s?
I remember watching some show on the history channel about a bunch of Israeli prime ministers. I think it might have been Sharon who was in one them. Might be wrong though.

Also, another thing I heard was that in 1940 (before the discovery of concentration camps) lehi tried to make a deal with the Nazis and Italians to fight for the Axis in Palestine. Again, may have been just a rumour.

[Intifada]

I&#39;m still waiting to hear why ethnic cleansing of Jews in Gaza is acceptible.

and i am still waiting to hear why the ethnic cleansing of palestinians from their land is acceptable.

[Slobo Is God]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 03:46 PM

I&#39;m still waiting to hear why ethnic cleansing of Jews in Gaza is acceptible.

and i am still waiting to hear why the ethnic cleansing of palestinians from their land is acceptable.
"Palestinians" aren&#39;t being removed from Gaza, Judea, Samaria, or pre-67 Israel. We see right through your fascist lies Nazi.

[Vinny Rafarino]

Good grief. It appears that anyone who calls this kid on his obvious bullshit is suddenly a "nazi".



Your credibility went from almost zero to nil in record time son. You deserve a nice little prize or something.

[Intifada]

"Palestinians" aren&#39;t being removed from Gaza, Judea, Samaria, or pre-67 Israel. We see right through your fascist lies Nazi.

:blink:

its obvious how stupid you are so there is no point in trying to debate with you. the fact that you think slobodan milosevic is god is proof enough of how fucked up you are.

[Osman Ghazi]

"Palestinians" aren&#39;t being removed from Gaza, Judea, Samaria, or pre-67 Israel. We see right through your t lies Nazi.

The very fact that you call the West Bank Judea and Samaria reveals your bias you Zionist Nazi.

Was it not ethnic cleansing when the Ashkenazim invaded in 1948 in the &#39;war of independance&#39;?
Of course it was hardly liberation for the Palestinian majority that existed prior to 1948.

Think about it. There were more Palestinians in Israel in 1948 than today. Are you trying to tell me that they magically disappeared? Where did they all go?

I&#39;ll tell you where: they were murdered and deported every chance the Zionist Nazis got. Every Arab-Israeli war saw the deportation of tens of thousands of Palestinians.

But, of course God decreed that the land belonged to the Jews (the ones who abandoned their homeland in 70 AD) so it was alright for them to kill Palestinians.

Face it: Your not left-wing at all. If you support the killing of a whole people, then you are a racist (which you obviously are since you support Slobodan Milosevic, a notorious racist). Let me guess: That is all imperialist propaganda.

Give me a break. And who is this we kimosabe? I don&#39;t see anyone else supporting your outrageous claims.

[shintso]

Weren&#39;t eztel and lehi active in Palestine during the 30s and 40s?
yes, they were active against both the british and arabs. they were terror orgenizations. no doubt about it. the lehi was more fundementalists, they atacked both civil and militery targets (my grandfather&#39;s brother was in the lehi, which is kind of funny since my grandfather served for british royal navy in ww2). the etzel attacked more militery targets.

I think it might have been Sharon who was in one them. Might be wrong though.
im not sure, but i dont think it was possible. after israel was formed the militery didnt take kindly to the terrorist orgenizations and their men. most of their men were given desk job. sharon was fighter in the paratroopers division, so i dont think its possible.


and i am still waiting to hear why the ethnic cleansing of palestinians from their land is acceptable. first of all no one is evacuating palestinians. second of all since when is it their land? why because they grow sheep in the same field for hundreds of years? palestine was ruled by the british before israel, and before that there was a 500 year turkish regime. the land was never palestinians. do you expect americans to return their land to the native indians. it was their land and they failed to protect it hundreds of years ago. tough break.


Think about it. There were more Palestinians in Israel in 1948 than today. Are you trying to tell me that they magically disappeared? Where did they all go?

I&#39;ll tell you where: they were murdered and deported every chance the Zionist Nazis got. Every Arab-Israeli war saw the deportation of tens of thousands of Palestinians.

where do you come up with all fo this shit? congradulations timmy, your living a lie.
i&#39;ll tell you where they went, they escaped to jorden and egypt, which didnt take kindly to their new inhabitants. jordenian king hussain masacared palestinians in his country during the early sixties. also in egypt they were rejected and concentrated in gaza. israel did the arab nations a really big favor after 67&#39; by riding them of the palestinian problem - which ment claiming responsebility on the paletinian people.
by the way calling jews nazis is kinda&#39;ve like calling african american "rednecks". it just dont mix.

[Osman Ghazi]

But Zionism is the Jewish form of National Socialism, IMO.
i.e. They are considered superior to the Arabs, they are very anti-communist (yes, i know kibbutzim but they were with the Americans whilst the Arabs were with the Sovs) very nationalistic, i.e. the State of Israel is more important than the lives of individual Israelis.

Very similar to National Socialism, ya.
Sure, some of the details are different but it is more or less the same cup o&#39; tea.

Secondly, massacred is the single most distorted word in the histroy of the english language. the Holocaust was considered a massacre but then you have the Boston &#39;massacre&#39; in which only 5 Americans were killed. Massacre tells me nothing. How many are we talking here?

Thirdly, why do you think they fled?
They were all just bored and decided to trek a thousand miles to find a new home?

Fourthly, the land belongs to the people who live on it.
The Israelis (Jewish) have a claim now but they didn&#39;t in 1948.
However, what&#39;s done is done.
I hope you don&#39;t seriously think that conquering an area gives you any right to it. By that logic, if the Arabs were to retake Israel (highly hypothetical situation) then you would have to say that it is rightfully theirs because you didn&#39;t defend it well enough.

I don&#39;t know about you but that doesn&#39;t make sense to me.

Edit: And saying that the Israelis were claiming responsibility for the Palestinian people is like saying that the benevolent southerners were just trying to take responsibility of the blacks and that the KKK was just trying to scare blacks into working harder. The fact is that Palestinians are exploited as a cheap source of labour just like blacks were until about 30 years ago.

[Intifada]

first of all no one is evacuating palestinians.

ethnic cleansing happens when israel connects the jewish settlement of kiryat arba with that of hebron by a promenade which cuts the heart of palestinian hebron and necessitates the demolition of scores of palestinian houses along the route, described as "uninhabited" or as being "shelter to terrorists".

ethnic cleansing happens when israel builds a "security" fence on palestinian fields, cutting them from their owners; the farmers cannot access their land and are forced to find their living elsewhere.

ethnic cleansing happens when settlers terrorise the palestinian village of khirbet yanun, break into houses destroying whatever they find; 3 years ago, only two old men were left of the whole village, the rest of its population had taken refuge in the neighbouring town of akrabeh.

immediately after the 1948 war, almost 400,000 hectares of palestinian land was confiscated by the israeli state. between 1948 and 1976, an additional 110,000 hectares were taken.

israel&#39;s june 1967 war against syria, egypt and jordan allowed the zionist state to push its borders outward dramatically, taking over the west bank and gaza strip. palestinians who had already been turned into refugees were forced to flee once more.

sharon&#39;s “serious plan” is to permanently station israeli troops within the borders of the west bank to create a “buffer zone”, and thus to ethnically cleanse more palestinians from palestinian land.


second of all since when is it their land?

since when is it the land of israel?

[shintso]

But Zionism is the Jewish form of National Socialism, IMO.
i.e. They are considered superior to the Arabs, they are very anti-communist (yes, i know kibbutzim but they were with the Americans whilst the Arabs were with the Sovs) very nationalistic, i.e. the State of Israel is more important than the lives of individual Israelis
no. zionism is israeli patriotism. nothing more. it is a the love that one holds to israel and to zion (jerusalem). zionist israelis dont consider themselves superior to arbs, though you cannot disregard the militery superiority. the kibotzim were very pro-ussr. to this day we celebrate the 1st of may in our school and my mother taught me the kind of songs they sang as children ("russia our mother, stalin our father, we will never be orphins"). but yes, the cities and the govermnment was pro-western.
its true what you say about the necesety of israel as a state of jews. more people on israel believe that above all this state should be a the jewish state. we dont have anywhere else to go without being outcasted (yes, i lived in america for a few years and over there everything is fine. but i&#39;ve got friends who were raised in france and belgium, who&#39;s family suffered to this day from antisemetics).
the holocost still plays a very important part in the jewish way of life. even though 60 years have past and most of the survivors passed away, we still take the matter very seriously. you say nationalism, i say survival.


Secondly, massacred is the single most distorted word in the histroy of the english language. the Holocaust was considered a massacre but then you have the Boston &#39;massacre&#39; in which only 5 Americans were killed. Massacre tells me nothing. How many are we talking here?

read for yourself. http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/his_periods5.html
i&#39;ve searched in both israeli and jordenian websites, non post the number of casualties. but the fact that many terrorist seaked refuge in israel pretty much tells the whole story.


Thirdly, why do you think they fled?
They were all just bored and decided to trek a thousand miles to find a new home?
in israel&#39;s decliration of independance Ben Gurion called the arabs to join the israeli nation in the building of the country. i arabs were scared. yes. there were mant fights and comfrontation between jews and arabs, and now that the british werent here to calm things down who knows what could have happend if the arabs wouldnt have fled. so yeah you got a point. but fact remains that the ones who didnt flee werent brutelized.


Fourthly, the land belongs to the people who live on it.
The Israelis (Jewish) have a claim now but they didn&#39;t in 1948.
However, what&#39;s done is done.
I hope you don&#39;t seriously think that conquering an area gives you any right to it. By that logic, if the Arabs were to retake Israel (highly hypothetical situation) then you would have to say that it is rightfully theirs because you didn&#39;t defend it well enough.

I don&#39;t know about you but that doesn&#39;t make sense to me.

it makes perfect sense. from the dawn of civilization the land belonged to the ones who protect it. the israelis didnt need a claim back in 48 , the UN gave them legitmacy.
logic doesnt work when it comes to borders. giving up lands is a sign of weakness.


And saying that the Israelis were claiming responsibility for the Palestinian people is like saying that the benevolent southerners were just trying to take responsibility of the blacks and that the KKK was just trying to scare blacks into working harder. The fact is that Palestinians are exploited as a cheap source of labour just like blacks were until about 30 years ago.
since when were the kkk a governmental group? the southerners werent responsible for the blacks ,after the liberation, the blacks didnt have any education and didnt know what to do except work.
israel doesnt relay on palestinians for labour. we have romanians, israeli-arabs, thailand workers, chinies workers, african workers and so worth.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

I think that the if the Isrealis are going to build this wall, then they should leave the settlements alone and build the wall as planned, and let the Palestinians deal with the settlements. I say furthermore, that let anyone who wants to stay, stay, and let anyone who wants to leave, do so. Ethnic cleansing is a terrible proposition no matter what the circumstances, besides we all know what that leads to.... I really don&#39;t see any workable exit stratigy between these reactionary forces.

[shintso]

to ihatebush: let me ask you a question: a jewish person can live in boston, in london, in paris, in guatamala, in mexico, in russia, in austrelia, in romania, in maroco... and so forth. why cant he live in hebron?
the jews arent the one advocating ethnic cleansing. the palestinian are.



since when is it the land of israel?
since the UN declared it is. if thats not enough for you, i suggest you break free of social conventions and go live in a jungle somewhere.

[Intifada]

why cant he live in hebron?

why cant the israelis let the palestinians live in peace?

why do they have to occupy their land?

why do they have to control their water supplies?

why do they have to demolish palestinian homes? (yet another example of ethnic cleansing)

why do they have to launch raids on refugee camps?

why do the have to stop pregnent women from passing checkpoints and roadblocks in order to get to a hospital, and as a result killing them?

why do they have to do all this, please tell me.

its no wonder why so many palestinians resort to suicide bombings.

[shintso]

answering a question with a question seems pretty childish. nontheless, i&#39;ll answer your question, and i will ask you, in turn, to answer mine.

why cant the israelis let the palestinians live in peace? after 1994 israel left the palestinian in peace to do their deeds. how do they react - start an intifada in 1999.


why do they have to occupy their land?
you know what. i want you to find where it says that it is their land. they never had ownership. before israel conquared the territories in 67 it belonged to egypt and jordan. before that, it belonged to the british, before the to the turks. it was never their land. israel gave the palastinians that land for their autonomical reign.


why do they have to demolish palestinian homes? (yet another example of ethnic cleansing)
the only houses being destroyed are the ones that belong to terrorist, after they performed acts against israel. dont try to twist israel&#39;s actions against terrorists as actions against palestinians.


why do they have to launch raids on refugee camps? because the refugee camp are the training grounds for terrorist activities.


why do the have to stop pregnent women from passing checkpoints and roadblocks in order to get to a hospital, and as a result killing them?

do you even read the newspaper?&#33; two weeks ago israeli soldiers let a woman through the erez block, after she said that she had a metal plate in her leg and couldnt go the etal detector. in return that woman blew herself up, killing the soldiers who felt sorry for, and also killing an israeli citizen who was present at the location.
prior to this incident: some terrorists "hitched" a ride on an ambulance carrying a sick palestinian to an israeli hospital. those terrorists later bombed a coffee shop in jerusalem. the soldiers at the block who let the ambulance through were blamed.
dont call us inhuamn. we&#39;re doing whatever is necesary it protact ourselves with minimum damage to palestinians civilins. the terrorist are the ones responsible for the suffering of their people.

its no wonder why so many palestinians resort to suicide bombings.
suicide bombing wasnt developed by deperate palestinians. its been around since the time of the hashashim in the 14th century. it is not their "last resort". it is an act of honor&#33; and more important, suicide bomber, by acting against israel, take care of their families for the rest of their lives (the hizballa and other orgenizations offer lots of money to the families of suicide bombers). do you lnow they actually get life insurance money out of it?
hope these answer are to your satisfactory. now answer my question.

[Intifada]

after 1994 israel left the palestinian in peace to do their deeds. how do they react - start an intifada in 1999.

explain the massacre of Ebrahimi Mosque in 1994?

explain the 1996 massacre of Qana?

the israelis didnt leave the palestinians in peace.

right of return (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C82E25A7-9393-40EC-9011-C9F5468C8BB4.htm)

shortly after being founded in 1948, israel seized control of 78% of historic palestine. most of this was achieved as a result of UN partition but partly by force. the indigenous people of palestine fled from an organised campaign of terror, or were expelled by force. nowadays, wouldn’t this be what is called “ethnic cleansing”?

during the six-day war in 1967, the israelis occupied the 22% left over. today the palestinians are only asking for that mere 22% back.



the only houses being destroyed are the ones that belong to terrorist, after they performed acts against israel.

that is just bullshit israeli propaganda.

since the six-day war in 1967, israel has bulldozed over 8000 palestinian homes in the OPT, including east jerusalem. around 60000 palestinians have lost their residency rights in east jerusalem since 1967. israel’s policy of house demolitions looks to confine the palestinians into small enclaves so that they leave their land behind for the arrival of more israeli settlers. the demolitions of palestinian homes are a crime against humanity in itself.


because the refugee camp are the training grounds for terrorist activities.

of course. how stupid of me&#33; :rolleyes:

read the story of fatima and nasser:


In October of 2001, a young, pregnant woman called Fatima woke up with tremendous labour pains. She and her husband Nasser quickly rushed out into a friend’s car for the hospital in Bethlehem (in Israeli occupied Palestine).

The couple arrived at a roadblock on the outskirts of their village, where they were stopped by Israeli soldiers. They were told to go back even though Fatima was haemorrhaging right in front of their eyes. They went back and took a taxi. Again they were not allowed past. No reason was given and a soldier even had the audacity to mimic Fatima’s groans.

Fatima was forced to give birth to her child in a taxi. The umbilical cord had to be cut with a razor blade. The little boy was wrapped inside Nasser’s jacket and finally a relative managed to find a back-route to the hospital. However the tiny boy was now blue in the face and in a critical condition. The baby was dead by the time they arrived at the hospital.

An Israeli human right’s group has recorded hundreds of stories about pregnant women and other seriously ill Palestinians being turned back at checkpoints, even ambulances are not allowed through. A spokeswoman of the Israeli Physicians for Human Rights said that roadblocks are used in order to “control, subjugate and humiliate” Palestinians. She said that it is like “a routine terrorism”.


suicide bombing wasnt developed by deperate palestinians.

but it is performed by DESPERATE palestinians.


you missed a question:
why do they have to control their water supplies?

[shintso]

explain the massacre of Ebrahimi Mosque in 1994?

explain the 1996 massacre of Qana?
those actions werent militery or governmental acts. they were terror acts. both palestinians and israelis use terror in this conflict. fact remains israel does whatever it can to stop israeli terrorists while the palestinians arent doing shit.

right of return?&#33; do you even know what that means?
if the paletinians want to go back to 67 line (the green line), how come they see sharon&#39;s evacuation plans as a sign of defeat and a reason to keep pushing israelis out of the entire palestine territory?
besides, the sole fact that the palestinians want to go back to the 67 line shown that they agree with all of the land changes prior to that time. if they werent, why dont they demand we go back to the purple line?
i&#39;ll tell you why, because israel started the six day wat, and they started the war in 1948. the land they lost is not countable as conquared land. but the land we won is.


since the six-day war in 1967, israel has bulldozed over 8000 palestinian homes in the OPT, including east jerusalem. around 60000 palestinians have lost their residency rights in east jerusalem since 1967. israel’s policy of house demolitions looks to confine the palestinians into small enclaves so that they leave their land behind for the arrival of more israeli settlers. the demolitions of palestinian homes are a crime against humanity in itself
ohh well i guess that explains why sharon decided not to demolish the settalments, and let the palatinians live in old israeli settelment houses.

about the story of fatima and nesser. did you see the palestinian movie "Jenin Jenin"?
in that movie, an old palestinian from jenin was interviewed and he showed a bullet wound and said that an israeli soldier shot him. an investigating unit was estableshed and it found out that the old man was shot by palestinians and that the soldiers were the ones to give him medical treatment. when asked why he lied, the old man said that if he was to say anything good about the israelis, he would have been hanged.
dont believe anything you hear or read or see. you can chose to believe my version, or any other version you see fit. but dont be blind.


but it is performed by DESPERATE palestinians.
bullshit.
honor, money and hatred.

about the water supplies. their not a country yet. therefor they dont have their water supply. what about heat and electricity? we provide that as well. are we supposed to build them their own power plant, or are we supposed to disconnect them from electricity and phone systems. we (and the americans) provide the palestinians with all of the resources they could possibly need. their government is blame for shifting al of those resources to terror orgenizations. yasser arafat has more than 350 million dollars while his people are starving. where did he get that money from?

now tell why a jewish person can live anywhere in the world, but he cant live in hebron? and is that not ethnic cleansing.

[Osman Ghazi]

Your whole argument doesn&#39;t make sense: they conquered it in 48 so it is theirs because the Palestinians &#39;didn&#39;t defend it well enough&#39;.
By that logic, Israel should secede back to Rome because the Jews didn&#39;t defend it well enough before the Diaspora.

Conquering a land doesn&#39;t give you any claim to it unless your living in a pre-WW2 world.

Also, the UN didn&#39;t own the land so how did they have any right to give it away?

Edit: Dismantling settlements is not ethnic cleansing. There are certain things such as municipal laws i.e. the laws of cities. The settlements infringe on said laws therefore, they are illegal. If a Jew wants to go and live in Hebron, no one is proposing that he be stopped. They will only stop him if he wants to build a settlement in an area that already has a city.

[Intifada]

about the water supplies. their not a country yet

thats not the point. in hebron, 85% of the water supply goes to 400 jewish settlers, while more than 100000 palestinians are given the remaining 15%.


Back in 1948 the UN passed a now famous resolution, Resolution 194, which stated:

“The refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date.”

It went on in detail to confirm the basic rights of these refugees – to receive compensation for the loss of their property and assistance in resettling in a host country should they choose to do so.

the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the universal declaration of human rights, yet palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the oslo accords.


israel does whatever it can to stop israeli terrorists while the palestinians arent doing shit.

the israeli government takes part in terrorism. they have killed nearly 3000 palestinians since the start of the second intifada. one israeli refusenik said himself that he would not take part in what he sees as terrorism. he said that the apache helicopters are designed to destroy tanks not humans.


but dont be blind.


dont be stupid. i repeat:

An Israeli human right’s group has recorded HUNDREDS of stories about pregnant women and other seriously ill Palestinians being turned back at checkpoints, even ambulances are not allowed through. A spokeswoman of the Israeli Physicians for Human Rights said that roadblocks are used in order to “control, subjugate and humiliate” Palestinians. She said that it is like “a routine terrorism”.



the jews arent the one advocating ethnic cleansing. the palestinian are.

hahahahah :lol:
how come uzi cohen put forward an idea stating that the palestinians will be given the opportunity to leave now, and if they havent by 20 years, they will be expelled by force?

moledet are also in favour of "population transfer".

[Osman Ghazi]

This is very true.
A lot of parties in the Likud coalition are hardline nationalist/religous freaks who want to expel Palestinians by force.

[shintso]

Your whole argument doesn&#39;t make sense: they conquered it in 48 so it is theirs because the Palestinians &#39;didn&#39;t defend it well enough&#39;.
By that logic, Israel should secede back to Rome because the Jews didn&#39;t defend it well enough before the Diaspora.

Conquering a land doesn&#39;t give you any claim to it unless your living in a pre-WW2 world.

the roman empire fell a long time ago, they didnt defend the land as well. the world hasnt changed a bit. think about it this way. if sitting on the same land for a long time makes the land yours (that is your point by my understanding, maybe im just dumb), than the lands on which the jewish settelers build their homes is theirs.
that land never belonged to the palestinians. the turks ruled that land for 500 years, before that were the crusaders, before that the romans, before that that the jews, before that the greeks, before that the pharsis, before that the babalonians, before that the israelis, before that it was known as knaan.
look what i did, i dated the land back to the time of moses. that soil was never palastiniane.

Also, the UN didn&#39;t own the land so how did they have any right to give it away?

ohh but the un did own that land. the league of nations, the one the won the first world war, owned that land and gave the british a mandetorian regime.


Edit: Dismantling settlements is not ethnic cleansing. There are certain things such as municipal laws i.e. the laws of cities. The settlements infringe on said laws therefore, they are illegal. If a Jew wants to go and live in Hebron, no one is proposing that he be stopped. They will only stop him if he wants to build a settlement in an area that already has a city.
look, your trying to make me look like im pro-settlers which im not. i think the settlers are the sole reason to this conflict and i recent them brothers. the new settlements are the main cause for the death of our soldiers. think about, a division protecting two caravan with two families, does that sound logical to you?
i asked why a jewish person couldnt live in hebron, and i meant hebron. in hebron this the mahpela tunnel, where abraham is burried. many israelis find that place spiritually important and wish to live there, not to raise their new settlements, but to find an apartment and live close to the burial place of their ancestor. whats wrong with that?


thats not the point. in hebron, 85% of the water supply goes to 400 jewish settlers, while more than 100000 palestinians are given the remaining 15%.

what? there&#39;s a water crises in hebron? how come i havent heard of it? if 15% of that water is enough for them to not die, than israel has done its duty.


Back in 1948 the UN passed a now famous resolution, Resolution 194, which stated:

“The refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date.”

It went on in detail to confirm the basic rights of these refugees – to receive compensation for the loss of their property and assistance in resettling in a host country should they choose to do so.

did they chose to do so? and another thing, clinton poured literally billions of us dollars on the palestinians, is that not compensation? water, heat, electricety, phone and tv connections, is that not compensation?
fact remains (and i say fact because it was proven) that the palestinian government channeled that money towards terrorist.


the right of self-determination is guaranteed to every human being under the universal declaration of human rights, yet palestinians were/are expected to negotiate for this right under the oslo accords.

oh dont even try to use oslo against israel. oslo is the sole proof that the palestinians are responsible for the conflict. they broke the peace treaty.


the israeli government takes part in terrorism.
in your opinion. your entitled to your own opinion. its true that the militery is responsible for many civilian casualties. but i wouldnt go as far as terrorism, those civilians were never the target, and whenever a palestinian civilian is murdered, israel formes an investigating unit and the israelis responsible deal with the consquences.


An Israeli human right’s group has recorded HUNDREDS of stories about pregnant women and other seriously ill Palestinians being turned back at checkpoints, even ambulances are not allowed through. A spokeswoman of the Israeli Physicians for Human Rights said that roadblocks are used in order to “control, subjugate and humiliate” Palestinians. She said that it is like “a routine terrorism”.

well what do you expect. after a single terrorist cell uses an ambulance to enter israel, all other ambulances will be held. that the price the civilians must pay for the terrorists action. do you expect an israeli soldier to spare the life a palastinian at the cost of another israeli life. or what about an israeli kindergarden?
i&#39;ve heard a lot about the inhumanity in the roadblocks. some first-handed. my friend&#39;s brother used to torment palastinians at those blocks, and he told us the stories with such pride. but one day he got stabbed and everyone blamed the palestinian who did it. and you know what? that palestinian was right to do so and should have killed him. ok. now read what i wrote last time about the woman with the iron plate in her leg. israeli soldiers die for their humanity. what would you do if you were in that position. im going to be in that position in augost, i&#39;ll write you every weekend about how it&#39;s like.


how come uzi cohen put forward an idea stating that the palestinians will be given the opportunity to leave now, and if they havent by 20 years, they will be expelled by force?

moledet are also in favour of "population transfer".

uzi cohen is a maniac and does not repreasent israel. transfer is the same war crime the nazis performed against the jews in europe. it is not acceptable by the leading majority of israel. dont judge israel by its extremists fanatics.

[Intifada]

oh dont even try to use oslo against israel. oslo is the sole proof that the palestinians are responsible for the conflict. they broke the peace treaty.

oslo was a big piece of shit. the fact remains, that palestinians (just like any other human being) have the right to self-determination.


whenever a palestinian civilian is murdered, israel formes an investigating unit and the israelis responsible deal with the consquences.

so what&#33; what does that mean to the dead child, or the orphan who has lost his/her mother and father. it means nothing, because the child will have a crap life and probably end up becoming a suicide bombing in order to gain revenge.


dont judge israel by its extremists fanatics. #

dont judge palestinians by its extremist fanatics.

the story you told is sad, nobody deserves to be killed, whether they are palestinian or israeli. however, this vicious cycle of hatred and violence will only stop when both parties realise that their policies are not working. i admit that arafat is no good for the palestinians anymore, but how can the palestinians trust a man like sharon?

[shintso]

oslo was a big piece of shit. the fact remains, that palestinians (just like any other human being) have the right to self-determination.
so did the jews in the 30th and 40th, but they were still butchered.


so what&#33; what does that mean to the dead child, or the orphan who has lost his/her mother and father. it means nothing, because the child will have a crap life and probably end up becoming a suicide bombing in order to gain revenge.
dead children and orphins are problems on both sides. dont forget that.
if a palastinian civilian child is killed while playing with his friends, or sitting at home, or while performing any of his everyday activities, than a crime against humanity and whoever&#39;s responsible should rot in jail. (im refering the shchade ternmintion in which 13 children were killed as a result of israeli air-force droping a bomb that waighes a ton on his building).
but if a child is killed while participating in a violant protest, than im sorry but i feel no sympathy towards him, i dont get burned because i stay away from fire.


dont judge palestinians by its extremist fanatics.
im not, go through everything i&#39;ve written so far and you will see that i distinctevly separate between palestinian civilians and terrorists. i have no beef with the civilians, which are the majority of the palestinians, they just want to live their lives in peace and in dignity. the only palestinian groups im going out against is the palestinian goverment and the terrorist orgenization.


the story you told is sad, nobody deserves to be killed, whether they are palestinian or israeli.
well it shocked me as an israeli to hear this kind of torture firsthand and i found myself sympathysing that palestinian. i only said that i wish he would&#39;ve died because i wanted to prove a point about how soldier&#39;s behaviour is rewarded, both kindness and cruelty.

however, this vicious cycle of hatred and violence will only stop when both parties realise that their policies are not working.
absolutly true

[Intifada]

so did the jews in the 30th and 40th, but they were still butchered

palestinians were also being butchered.

do you agree that the occupation of the palestinian people must be stopped in order for peace to be a reality?

[Saint-Just]

im not, go through everything i&#39;ve written so far and you will see that i distinctevly separate between palestinian civilians and terrorists. i have no beef with the civilians, which are the majority of the palestinians, they just want to live their lives in peace and in dignity. the only palestinian groups im going out against is the palestinian goverment and the terrorist orgenization.

There are many civilians who also want Israel to withdraw. The terrorist organisations in Palestine are a result of the Israel&#39;s existance. I am not saying Israel does not have the right to exist, but I think that the resistance to Israel that exists is something that was a foregone result of the creation of Israel. Although it may be wrong for Israel to make concessions to the Palestinian people they will have to in order to reduce the violent opposition to their presence. Principally by sharing some of the wealth they have created in the region.

People criticise some countries for invading foreign territories, Israel is the same thing. It was an invasion of a set of people scattered across the globe rather than any nation, however it had similar effects. Jews had a right to a homeland, however I think that their claim to Palestine was unreasonable. It was the most appropriate land for them, however that did not mean they would not upset people.

I think it is a waste of time criticising suicide bombers and the militant resistance to Israel unless the Israeli&#39;s make big concessions to the palestinian people. Also, I think military reaction to the Palestian violence is disproportional, unjustified and hypocritical.

[Osman Ghazi]

well what do you expect. after a single terrorist cell uses an ambulance to enter israel, all other ambulances will be held. that the price the civilians must pay for the terrorists action. do you expect an israeli soldier to spare the life a palastinian at the cost of another israeli life. or what about an israeli kindergarden?

What do you think a Palestinian man is going to do when his wife and child die because the IDF wouldn&#39;t let them past a roadblock?

Answer: Blow both them and himself up.

Every man you refuse to let through is going to have a very good reason to come back and blow your ass up.

First, of all, the land belongs to the people who live there. The Palestinians lived there so they owned it. They weren&#39;t given any say in the matter. That being said, the Jews live there now and so it is theirs now.

However, by your argument, if the Arabs retook Israel, they would have the right to do anything they wanted because it would be theirs by right of conquest. Right of conquest doesn&#39;t mean anything to me and it shouldn&#39;t mean anything to you.

[LuZhiming]

What? I am now hearing that the Palestinians were wrong in refusing Oslo? The whole point of that deal was to create a puppet state under Arafat, Palestinians couldn&#39;t even handle their own immigration without Israeli troops. They weren&#39;t even offered 50% of the land up for negotiation. Oslo was a joke.

This demonstration of falsifying history is pitiful as well. The arguement that the Palestinians have been bent on murdering Jews is insane. The Hebron Massacre is one small example. Zionists were particularly set to kill Palestinians right when they came to Palestine. There were numerous events of Zionists attacking Palestinians. There wasn&#39;t a Palestinian army. It was Zionists attempting to drive out non Jews from Palestine.

And whether we are going to admit it or not, Palestinian terrorism is a direct result of Israeli atrocities. The First Initfada was nothing but civil disbodience and demonstrations. Israeli&#39;s crushed it violently, which set off a string of violence. Hezbolla were formed because of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Hamas was part of another Intifada, and they became powerful after Israel had been backing them for years.(Back when Arafat was the "bad guy") Islamic Jihad is just another result of the Intifada, which is a direct result of the Israeli violence during the First Intifada. Many of the recent suicide attacks have been specifically in response to Israeli assassinations of militia leaders. It&#39;s not as if Israel is protecting itself from these groups by killing these leaders. Many of these happened in times of relative peace, where Israel purposely did it to set them off. If you look at every report, whenever a leader of Hamas or Islam Jihad is assassinated, they pledge revenge. And it ends up happening. And it is almost never in a time where suicide bombing were happening regularly. It&#39;s common sense, Israeli raids and destruction of homes happens much more often than suicide bombings. The casualties for Palestinians aren&#39;t higher because Israeli is better at killing aggressors, or because Israeli has more people to protect itself from.

[Osman Ghazi]

Palestinians have always born the brunt of the Arab-Israeli wars. Even dating back to the Haganah days.
During the Arab-Israeli wars, the Israelis carried out numerous &#39;raids&#39; and &#39;reprisals&#39; (i.e. attacking and wiping out numerous Arab villages). Hell, their Prime Minister and &#39;Unit 101&#39; were the ones who carried out most of these attacks.

[Intifada]

The ethnic cleansing of Rafah
Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi
January 29, 2004

The disastrous cycle of violence gripping Israel and Palestine receives plentiful news coverage. Largely unreported however, are the more insidious aspects of the conflict. Israel has committed litany of atrocities during its occupation of Palestine, but the crimes visited daily upon the innocent civilians of Rafah are among the most heinous. Even in the wider context of the occupation as a whole, Rafah’s situation is particularly tragic, and the conditions imposed on its citizens increasingly desperate. There can be no doubt that Israeli policy in Rafah amounts to a process of ethnic cleansing, and, as has been so often the case throughout history, a humanitarian catastrophe is being allowed to continue unimpeded as the world sits idly by.

Throughout the intifada, Israeli persecution of the population of Rafah has been relentless. The most populous district of one of the most densely-overcrowded regions on earth, the people of Rafah continue to find the land beneath them dwindling as repeated Israeli incursions systematically rob them of their homes, livelihood and dignity.

Formally one complete city, Rafah was divided in two following the Camp David settlement in 1978, with one half now part of Egypt. Since then, Israeli settlements have been established along the coast, cutting further into the already divided city.

Today, the Palestinian half of Rafah is a disparate collection of squalid camps, hemmed in by a ring of steel, its infrastructure effectively destroyed and its people destitute. Unemployment in the area stands at over 80%. Israel has conspicuously targeted the city’s infrastructure leaving sanitation in the camps in a deplorable condition.

On the fringes of the city, one row of houses after another has been erased, the Israeli destruction moving at a pace that the crippled local infrastructure cannot hope to counter. The United Nations Relief and Works Agency (UNRWA) has helped rebuild 200 houses in Rafah, and the Palestinian ministry of housing has managed 34, but these figures pale in comparison to the 1,643 buildings demolished and 16,000 Palestinians left homeless by the Israelis.

Last week, Israeli occupying troops went on yet another destructive rampage on the edge of the city, demolishing 31 Palestinian houses and wounding 38 local workers in the process. This one raid alone has left over 400 people homeless. A neighborhood mosque was also razed in the invasion, another clear symbol of the casual disregard in which the Palestinians are held.

Egregious logic

As well as the demolition of property, the Israeli military grip on Rafah has also been steadily tightened to disastrous effect. Due to its position on the border with Egypt, Rafah is of vital strategic importance to the Gaza Strip’s impoverished economy. As such it has, in the egregious logic of the Israeli government, been a natural target for Israel’s flagrant intention to crush any semblance of economic self-government in the Occupied Territories. Local workers seeking access to their jobs in Egypt are repeatedly denied passage at the border, or refused re-entry to the city in the evenings.

Likewise, access to other towns and cities in Gaza is frequently restricted, disrupting the local economy as much as possible. With the available farmland rapidly disappearing, local produce is more and more scarce, and the Palestinians are increasingly forced to rely on Israeli imports. Meanwhile, Rafah has a poverty rate, calculated by the World Bank as those living on less than US&#036; 2 a day, stands at 75%.

A predilection for violence

As usual, the Israeli army’s specious justification to the international community for the systematic degradation of Rafah, has been the ongoing search for tunnels used by militants and smugglers extending from the city across the Egyptian border. The fact that Israel possesses ample equipment to discover and unearth these tunnels without resorting to widespread destruction and violence, is conveniently ignored.

Also ignored is the particular predilection for destruction and violence of Sharon’s government, and its unspoken commitment to the total enslavement of the Palestinian people. As the citizens of Rafah are crammed into a smaller and smaller portion of land, stripped of their homes, and enslaved in grinding poverty, the fallacy of Israel’s stated objectives is clear. The incursions into Rafah, as elsewhere in the Occupied Territories, are merely an ongoing land-grab masquerading as a justifiable security operation. New ground for settlement expansion is being prepared and Israeli control of the border is tightened. At some points in Rafah, the incursions have cut up to 150 meters into Palestinian-owned territory, widening the buffer zone along the border at no cost to Israel but to disastrous effect for the destitute local population.

International reactions

The Israeli justification for the army’s actions in Rafah would be derisory were those actions not so criminal their consequences so tragic. The deaths in Rafah last year of international peace activists Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall, as well as the BBC cameraman James Miller, have caused ripples of concern across the international community and raised the media profile of the situation in Rafah and the Occupied Territories as a whole. Nonetheless, it remains a sad indictment of attitudes abroad that Sharon’s government has only been called to account when a foreign worker suffers the same tragic fate as the thousands of innocent Palestinians killed in the last three years. Tom Hurndall’s family has had the grace and dignity to acknowledge this, even at a time of unbearable grief.

The soldiers who killed Hurndall and Miller had in all likelihood killed before. It is indicative of the culture of impunity that has developed within the Israeli armed forces that a sniper could fire upon a young English man in a fluorescent vest ushering two terrified children to safety, and then claim he had been brandishing a gun. Nonetheless, even if justice is finally done in this single instance, the culture of impunity persists. Troops may be more cautious when faced with groups containing internationals, but this will not save the next Palestinian to be caught in the gunsights.

The Israeli actions in Rafah are a crime; a reign of terror on innocent civilians. The world has looked on too many times when such crimes have occurred in the past, reacting only when it was too late. Now it runs the risk of not reacting at all as the Sharon administration, already steeped in blood, plunges the civilians of Rafah into further carnage. Alert to the growing “demographic threat” posed by an increasing Palestinian population, the ethnic cleansing has already begun. Unsatisfied with reducing the city to terrified penury, Rafah it appears is to be steadily eliminated. The world must respond.