prove me wrong

[shintso]

there is an old saying in my country: "he who wasnt a communist as a teenager lacks heart, he who stayed a communist as a grown-up lacks brain".
in my opinion, communism, socialism and other commune state & economic systems are false hopes and theories. placebos for the unIntelligent masses.
the sole idea, that a human being can excist in a society without the urge to move forward in front of his naighbor, completely contrasts the human nature. people are different by birth, some tend towards excellance, some towards laziness, evedentually people function differently, and you expect them to recieve the same amount of money (or whatever other means of goods) for their services.
the only way for this kind of society to excist is by educating the generations to come with communism brainwash - congradulation - you've just destroyed the human mind and created a race of drones.

i'm from israel, in israel we have socialistic settelments called "kibotzim". these "kibotzim" were the prime example of pure socialism, not russian type squalid communism, but good wholsom socialism. everyone work hard and got equal treatment. the kibotzim were the core of the country, without them the country would have fall. but today, with the technological advancements, that no-longer require manual work, the kibotzim became obsolete and burden upon the entire country. most of them (the kibotzim) are now poor and need the state's help in order to keep the socialistic idea alive, and the country most help in order for it to keep its democratic profile. now i know what some of you might think - the kibotzim fell because they lost their socialistic ideals and principels. that is false. i go to school with many people from kibotzim and they idealists as the rest of you bunch.
people. communism doesnt work! democracy doesnt work either, but it is the lesser of two evils.

[shintso]

im not even going to start about facism, in my opinion it is no way of life whatsoever, besides, my peoples history condemns the use of facism/nazism or any other kind of racial system.

[Invader Zim]

Well your country has a stupid fucking saying, and no I cant prove you wrong, because its opinion, not fact.

Your kind of attitude is directly responcible for millions starving to death in Africa, that is a fine reason to support socialism.

Every £ you make more than you need in capitalism, means that someone else who does need that money goes with out.

Please dont give us more of this capitalist rhetoric, I for one can really not be bothered with it, next time make a decent argument.

[Osman Ghazi]

There is another old saying in your country. I think it goes something like this: "Let's kill all the Arabs, take their land and force them into slavery"

I'm afraid that your opinions simply are not shared by anyone with less than a million dollars in this world.

also, i could say 'face it. capitalism just doesn't work'
generally, people wouldn't accept that and likewise i don't accept your t, factless statement.
Show me some evidence and i may just talk to you again.

Edit: I'm sure that in the 1600's slogans like that abounded in Europe.
"He who wasn't a democrat as a teenager lacks heart, but he who stays a democrat as an adult lacks brains"

Pretty simple formula, eh?

[mia wallace]

"he who wasnt a communist as a teenager lacks heart, ...
and how old are you?


...he who stayed a communist as a grown-up lacks brain".
i've never really got this part, but this can also be interpretated as communists are not really welcome in capitalism, so if you as grown-up still didn't get it and you're telling people around you're a commie it's very possible you won't end up well, so it's logical to conclude you lack brain... yeah ^_^

you can't say communism doesen't work cause it has never been really tried!

anyway, please tell me one good reason why is capitslism better then communism?? :blink:

[Lardlad95]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 11:04 PM
there is an old saying in my country: "he who wasnt a communist as a teenager lacks heart, he who stayed a communist as a grown-up lacks brain".
in my opinion, communism, socialism and other commune state & economic systems are false hopes and theories. placebos for the unIntelligent masses.
the sole idea, that a human being can excist in a society without the urge to move forward in front of his naighbor, completely contrasts the human nature. people are different by birth, some tend towards excellance, some towards laziness, evedentually people function differently, and you expect them to recieve the same amount of money (or whatever other means of goods) for their services.
the only way for this kind of society to excist is by educating the generations to come with communism brainwash - congradulation - you've just destroyed the human mind and created a race of drones.

i'm from israel, in israel we have socialistic settelments called "kibotzim". these "kibotzim" were the prime example of pure socialism, not russian type squalid communism, but good wholsom socialism. everyone work hard and got equal treatment. the kibotzim were the core of the country, without them the country would have fall. but today, with the technological advancements, that no-longer require manual work, the kibotzim became obsolete and burden upon the entire country. most of them (the kibotzim) are now poor and need the state's help in order to keep the socialistic idea alive, and the country most help in order for it to keep its democratic profile. now i know what some of you might think - the kibotzim fell because they lost their socialistic ideals and principels. that is false. i go to school with many people from kibotzim and they idealists as the rest of you bunch.
people. communism doesnt work! democracy doesnt work either, but it is the lesser of two evils.

Listen Junior I'ma let you in on a little secret.

*whispers*: You aren't the first one to bring this up...in fact there havebeen countless others before you who have done this.


I"'m not saying it's not a legitamate arguement, I don't happen to see it as a very strong one, but the point is we've debated this countless times before. In fact we get about 2 or 3 of these things a week. I mean if you want to read up on socialist or communist arguements against yours just look in the prevous pages, you'll be sure to find some.

Also under most forms of socialism all pay isn't equal, it's just that pay and worker compensation is alot more fair. You seem to be basing this on whatever stereotypes you've heard about socialism or communism. I suggest you visit more socialist and communist sites so you can see their actual positions.

Finally, on the facism thing, no one here is nazi or facist. Nazis are instantly banned, and I'm pretty sure facists are too, if they aren't they usually dn't last a week here.

[shintso]

well right about the joniur thing, i am new to these kind of debating forums. but still i'd like to adress the arguments laid before me.
as for the africa part, in the past two decades my country has jumped through hoops in order to bring tens and hundreds of thousands ethiopians and, although they are ranked in lower economical status in my country, their lives are still way better than in africa (based on conversations i've had with members of that community). it is true that in capitalist countries people make alot more money than they actually need, and the difference between the rich and the poor in my country is one of the highest in the world. but, i think it was adam smith who said that is better to have an unequal society divided to rich & poor than an equal society where everyone is poor. that evedentually is what happens in communist countries. just point out one succefull communist country.
about the israeli-arabic conflict and your exuse of argument im not even going to retaliate. do your homework about whats going on in the middle east before you attack my people, the most liberal people on the face of this planet. if any other country would have been in israel's situation, there wouldnt be a nation of palastain, and that includes moslem countries (everything i say about this i can backup, try me).
how can you say 'capitalism doesnt work'? look around you, read the newspaper. IMO a person performs best when he has an interest in his job. not everyone hold the same ideaological interest, but most people hold the same financial interest. only capitalism enables a person to be his best, because life is competition. at a sporting event you look for the action, you look for the winner, no one wants to lose. think what sports would look like if everygame will always finish with a draw...
the stereotype could in fact be quite true. indeed ive never been a part of a socialistic society, and my basic knowledge about it comes from my liberal school (although both my girlfriend & my history teacher are socialists).
ohh and about my country's saying: the fact that it managed to piss you guys off just shows how correct it is. if you guys were sure about you intellangence, you wont rush off to protect it and you wont use bad language.

[Iepilei]

You can piss a guy off by telling him his mother is a whore. Doesn't mean it's true.

Personally, I think the major cause for frustration here is the fact that you have come to the forums, bringing only that which we've heard hundreds of times before. Capitalism has it's benefits, no doubt. It creates the proletariat - it works to lay out the ground work for industrialisation. However it has it's downsides: which are quite abundant. It creates massive income disparity, it places too much power in the hands of people outside the goverment, it exploits people at home and abroad. Capitalism is like any other trend in human society - it will eventually be cast to the wayside once people realise it's damaging potential.

People say communism won't work the same way people said democracy wouldn't work some 200 years ago. Gradually, we've proven the bulk wrong. Kings aren't needed to rule the country and capitalists aren't needed to rule the market. People are more capable than you give them credit for. It's our job to get the people to realise it.

[Lardlad95]

well right about the joniur thing, i am new to these kind of debating forums. but still i'd like to adress the arguments laid before me.


fair enough



it is true that in capitalist countries people make alot more money than they actually need, and the difference between the rich and the poor are in my country is one of the highest in the world. but, i think it adam smith who said that is better to have an unequal society divided to rich & poor than an equal society where everyone is poor. that evedentually is what happens in communist countries



Well Adam Smith also wasn't on the bottom rung of society. I don't see any eason for why he would want an equal society. The larger the gap becomes, the harder it is for people to jump said gap. The rich stay rich, the poor get poorer, and eventually you end up in a nation where the poor lack power.

Also there is no saying that this will happen in Communist nations, you can't speak for every possible situation because there are millions of possible scenarios.



just point out one succefull communist country.

I challenge you to actually point a country that was truly communist. communism has never actualley existed. COmmunism is a classless society, all so called "communist" societies have had classes. China, Russia, Cuba, N. Korea, none of these are truly communist



about the israeli-arabic conflict and your exuse of argument im not even going to retaliate. do your homework about whats going on in the middle east before you attack my people, the most liberal people on the face of this planet. if any other country would have been in israel situation, there wouldnt be a nation of palastain, and that includes moslem countries (everything i say about this can backup, try me).

I bet there are lots of Palestinians who would disagree.but that is between your people and their people. I wont take sides other than to say that the Palestinians deserve their own nation.


how can you say 'capitalism doesnt work'? look around you, read the newspaper. a person performs best when he has an interest in his job. not everyone hold the same ideaological interest, but most people hold the same financial interest. only capitalism enables a person to be his best, because life is competition. at a sporting event you look for the action, you look for the winner, no one wants to lose. think what sports would look like if everygame will always finish with a draw...

well that depends on your definition of "works" is. There is really no way for capitalism to not "work" because there are not guidelines for it, the only way for capitalism to fail is if it were communism.

The whole win/lose thing is a little iffy. Very few people "win", instead they stay in the middle, because not everyone is able to make it to the top, there aren't enough spots. Others are scared because they realize that in capitalism they are expendable, there is someone without a job willing to take that person's place even if the job is shitty.

[shintso]

i liked your opening line, and i withdraw the last comment on my earlier repley.

i've infact have done some research on socialism, and am aware of the capitalist downsides. my negative views about communism could have come from my misunderstanding of the ideaological meaning, and also learning alot of russia as a rolemodel for communism. ive read marx and engels, but i still didnt notice their theories being put into action. all in all communism is a good idea, but no ruler in his right state of mind would give up his power for the good of his people, even if he sold the masses promisses of such harmony filled world.
socialism isnt the perfect way of life, nor is capitalism. but you cant argue with the facts. sitting and saying - "wait and see, someday humanity will understand the great benefits of communism" proves nothing. wait and see, in twenty years earth will be dominated by geneticlly enhanced bunnies. i could be right i could be wrong, but i've proven nothing.

FYI, people said democracy wont work some 2000 years ago, not 200, in the days of ancient greece.

[Lardlad95]

ruler in his right state of mind would give up his power for the good of his people

This is a very true statement, this is the real hurdle we must overcome. it is possible, just very very hard. Because there must be a ruler in place for a while to make sure things get done. However I see the problem as being alliviated earleir by a legislative body, a large one so things don't turn into an oligarchy


socialism isnt the perfect way of life, nor is capitalism. but you cant argue with the facts. sitting and saying - "wait and see, someday humanity will understand the great benefits of communism" proves nothing. wait and see, in twenty years earth will be dominated by geneticlly enhanced bunnies. i could be right i could be wrong, but i've proven nothing.

What hhe's saying is that socialism is teh next logical step, followed by communism, the next logical step after that. We see that as huam society progresses society get more and more equal. Capitalism is obviously better than fuedalism, Socialism is better than capitalism(going by utilitarianism), and Communism is better than that (also going by utilitarianism).

Capitalism can't last forever, and we've already seen socialism come to it's aid before during dark tiimes. ie the great depression, socialist ideas helped secure the nation.(talking about America's depression not the global one)



FYI, people said democracy wont work some 2000 years ago, not 200, in the days of ancient greece.

No people were saying Democracy couldn't work through out all of history. Look at the European Monarchies. They didn't think the average person should have the right to rule, why do ou think there was so much elitism?

[shintso]

[The larger the gap becomes, the harder it is for people to jump said gap. The rich stay rich, the poor get poorer, and eventually you end up in a nation where the poor lack power.
]
that was the situation in the 19th century, times have changed, people in a capitalist country still have the option to study, work hard and win a scoularship.

[/I challenge you to actually point a country that was truly communist. communism has never actualley existed. COmmunism is a classless society, all so called "communist" societies have had classes. China, Russia, Cuba, N. Korea, none of these are truly communist]
exactly, and why do you think no country has been able to perform true communism?

[I wont take sides other than to say that the Palestinians deserve their own nation]
couldnt agree with you more

[/The whole win/lose thing is a little iffy. Very few people "win", instead they stay in the middle, because not everyone is able to make it to the top, there aren't enough spots. Others are scared because they realize that in capitalism they are expendable, there is someone without a job willing to take that person's place even if the job is shitty.]
ok, forget about the dumb sports metaphore. but honestly, what better motivates you (and this is a personal question), money or idea, i work better knowing i get payed for my efficiansy, maybe that makes me less of a person, but hey, i eat.
another thing. by "win" i didnt mean scoring a multi-million dollar job. i meant a good position in the middle class, making enough money for a neat little house outside town, two cars, a tv, a computer, a yearly vaction. living comfortable.

[shintso]

lardlad95, you are indeed a smart person.
i can debate with all night long, but over here it is 4 am and i've got school in 4 hours so ill try to sleep a bit.
everything you say is true about humanity growing more and more aware of society gaps. a lot of them were bridged in the last 100 years (just look at great britian at the beggining of the 20th century). but i still dont believe that absolute socialism is the next step. the social-liberal approach is more at hand. it takes care of the poor and underachievers, but it still enables people to have cause to be their best. understand one thing, in my opinion, if the people is ruled by communism people will have no goals. the country takes care of everyone. ive seen in kibotzim, and ive seen it in welfare payment. im not saying unemployed people should starve, but in my country the wellfare payments are the same as the minimum wadge. why should people work if they could get the money sitting on their asses? the country losses money taking care of its sick and poor - in a capitalist world, the sick and poor will die. in the socialistic world everybody will be sick and poor because you dont have to work. in a social liberal world poor will stay poor, but the country will be held by the rich and middle class.
that is, in my opinion, the next step.

[Pete]

Communism is no different than democracy.

Remove your self from the stereotype that democracy and capitalism are one. If you look in the business world it is a feudal system, not democratic at all. That is how our societies run. Not through democracy (who usually rules representative states? rich men or woman) but through an 'aristocracy' of 'nobles of the cloth' to borrow terms from the Old Regime of France.

That is where I prove you wrong.

Your lack of understand of what communism is.

I cannot define it for you, as it is too complex to sum up in a few words. Well I could, but you will say it is rhetoric, as that is what short defintions are. But anyways read:

Communsim is social, political, and economic democracy. That is, direct democracy.


Any one who supports a system that promotes growth and the raping of the earth for profit does not have a brain, but has selective sight and refuses to 'smell the coffee' and see that our life style will be our death.

Peak Oil Crash anyone?

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 12 2004, 01:55 AM
why should people work if they could get the money sitting on their asses? the country losses money taking care of its sick and poor - in a capitalist world, the sick and poor will die. in the socialistic world everybody will be sick and poor because you dont have to work.
The idea of people working for the good of the society is a motive that is worked up over time from first stage of when a communist party takes control, then through education in the socialism stage prioties will be changed and the masses in easy hippie like terms will be "awaken" and then many years and generations later people with have a different ideaology of how a society will be. So untill then people will still need to work to make a living and the unemployed then there living needs will be giving but working will make life much more comfortable. I believe it is really childish for communists to beleive that once workers have freedom and power that then peoples ideas will be changed and they will work for good will.

Im going to start a topic in theory about this.

[Osman Ghazi]

Firstly, I'd like to retract my first post.
I realize that it could have been taken poorly/was meant as an insult (again sorry)
The thing is that on this forum it is generally frowned upon to make such a presumptuous first post.

As for the actual debate on this forum, well i would say that your view of the USSR was no doubt somewhat skewed, correct?

Actually, right now I am reading David Lane's Politics and Society in the USSR. According to him it wasn't that bad. There was slightly less political freedom, true. However, economically they were roughly as well off as say, the poorer of the Western countries. Also, far from all being poor, they were fairly wealthy in that everyone had everything they needed, something the Western nations have yet to acheive.

I think it is self-evident that orthodox Marxist theory has failed. But it is difficult to predict the course of history of 150 years in the future and so no one blames Marx for that.
However, everyone here (except restricted members) feels that Marx can still be adapted and still be applied to the real world. Some of it needs to be refined yes, but it is still quite feasible.

Outright rejection seems very childish. I think you should research it more and think about the alternatives before making such broad critical statements.

PS: Again, sorry for the first post. You seem to be more intelligent than i thought.

[Guest1]

The problem is, you are making the same mistake as most people do.

Mixing up Communism with Leninism.

Leninism is just one form of it (at least that's what Leninists say).

Communism, the form that most of us advocate, is complete Democracy. Democracy in the state, and Democracy in the work place.

Think about it, how much better off would everyone be if factories were run Democratically, without the need to pay the majority of your profits to a greedy pig?

[synthesis]

For Shintso:

The New Face of Socialism (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=12&t=15437)


Actually, right now I am reading David Lane's Politics and Society in the USSR. According to him it wasn't that bad.

The Nazi?

Where did you obtain this book?

[Individual]

prove me wrong

Your wrong.

[Don't Change Your Name]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 11:04 PM
people are different by birth, some tend towards excellance, some towards laziness, evedentually people function differently, and you expect them to recieve the same amount of money (or whatever other means of goods) for their services.
assumtions...take a time to research...it's not like everyone get's the same name, the same clothes, the same food, the same money, the same house... however I can't see the reason of why some poor idiot who cleans a building 12 hours a day should be paid 1% of what a businessmen earns in 6 hours of "work".


i'm from israel, in israel we have socialistic settelments called "kibotzim". these "kibotzim" were the prime example of pure socialism, not russian type squalid communism, but good wholsom socialism. everyone work hard and got equal treatment. the kibotzim were the core of the country, without them the country would have fall. but today, with the technological advancements, that no-longer require manual work, the kibotzim became obsolete and burden upon the entire country. most of them (the kibotzim) are now poor and need the state's help in order to keep the socialistic idea alive, and the country most help in order for it to keep its democratic profile. now i know what some of you might think - the kibotzim fell because they lost their socialistic ideals and principels. that is false. i go to school with many people from kibotzim and they idealists as the rest of you bunch.

Well then maybe it's time to make changes to addapt to the new technological society. As far as I know many of those kibbutzim were on their beginning followers of the principles of Anarchism, until they became corrupted and polluted by capitalist, authoritarian and racist ideals and the anarchist ones started to reduce in quantity.


people. communism doesnt work!

This was already posted 10000000000000 times...and guess what, what doesn't work is that phrase! What does it means that a system "doesn't work"???


democracy doesnt work either, but it is the lesser of two evils.

So communism = stalinism? Face it, you have been brainwashed! Or ate least you could tell us your ideals and your perfect society if you want to rpove that at least you can think by yourself.

[Osman Ghazi]

The Nazi?

Where did you obtain this book?


I don't think it is the same David Lane.
This David Lane is a proffessor of sociology at Essex University.
Actually, it is one of the few books that one could probably call 'unbiased'. It is more of an intellectual critique that asesses both sides of the story. I doubt very highly that this David Lane is a Nazi.

Although, he could just be good at hiding it. :D

[LuZhiming]

Hmm, let's see:

Tsar Russia: Third World
Soviet Union: Second World
Capitalist Russia: Third World

I conclude that Socialism doesn't work. :huh:

[Lardlad95]

that was the situation in the 19th century, times have changed, people in a capitalist country still have the option to study, work hard and win a scoularship

Yes that looks good on paper, but the odds are stacked against the individual. Theoretically in capitalism everyone has the oppurtunity, but realistically very few people have the oppurtunity.

Also people that grow up in poor neighborhoods, go to poor schools don't have the same oppurtunities as someone who is born rich and goes to rich private schools.

I can tell you first hand that very few people will make it out of poor nieghborhoods. Does it happen? You better believe it does, and those are great inspirational stories. But the majoriy won't, the majority will return to that from which tthey came.

You are right, there is oppurtunity, but i find that capitalists seem to think that because the oppurtunity is there that somehow that means it is going to happen. Someone living in a delapidated trailer going to school that can't afford new books can bust their ass harder than anyone ever has before, and still there is no garauntee that they will rise above their surroundings.

Enviroment is a big factor, the only thing america has going for it is that yes theoppurtunity is there, but the majority will never be able to utilize it



exactly, and why do you think no country has been able to perform true communism?

Probably because the world isn't ready for it, the few experiments that have occured didn't totally follow marx, and none of them ever got past socialism...and not even a goood level of socialism at that.

When Capitalism crumbles, socialism will rise up.






ok, forget about the dumb sports metaphore. but honestly, what better motivates you (and this is a personal question), money or idea, i work better knowing i get payed for my efficiansy, maybe that makes me less of a person, but hey, i eat.
another thing. by "win" i didnt mean scoring a multi-million dollar job. i meant a good position in the middle class, making enough money for a neat little house outside town, two cars, a tv, a computer, a yearly vaction. living comfortable.

Comfortable? Hmm....universal healthcare, free education, free housing...hmmm seems like socialism has that stuff covered other than luxuries. But then again you can still buy those on your own

[shintso]

all of your ideas are fine n dandy. it was a mistake on my behalf to put marxist communism and stalinist communism in the same catagory. i am currently doing alot of research on che's life and ideals. i've read 'man and socialism on cuba' and came across a different kind socialism than the one they teach in our capitalist highschools. i was wondering where i could find some more che related socialistic theories, prior to the revolution.

i guess in the end it was che who proved me wrong... i still dont believe in the goodness of the human heart, but since you guys probably do, i'd say you'll are ahead of our times.
you got the right idea and ideals, but what are you going to do about it. chatting on forums wont change the world...

[Osman Ghazi]

Too true. Too true.
I think that the time has come for the members of this forum to organize.
As soon as capitalism collapses and it will, because it cannot last forever, we will have to be ready to strike.
Lately I've been reading Trotsky's work on the rise of m.
Basically he says that m only succeeds where communism fails to take the opportunity. The same conditions that allow for m allow for communism. It is all a matter of who realizes the potential first and who is more ready to take the streets with pistols and knives.

Man, I can't wait for that to happen.
I think that my favourite time period was Bolagna in 1920. Imagine, black shirts and Red Leagues battling in the streets for the future of millions...

Sorry, what was I talking about? :D

[shintso]

Man, I can't wait for that to happen.
I think that my favourite time period was Bolagna in 1920. Imagine, black shirts and Red Leagues battling in the streets for the future of millions...
am i to understand that a civil wars with thousands of casualties turns you on?

i prefer porn

[Osman Ghazi]

It doesn't turn me on but people who are willing to battle it out for the ideals they believe in are the people whom i admire the most.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 01:31 AM
all of your ideas are fine n dandy. it was a mistake on my behalf to put marxist communism and stalinist communism in the same catagory. i am currently doing alot of research on che's life and ideals. i've read 'man and socialism on cuba' and came across a different kind socialism than the one they teach in our capitalist highschools. i was wondering where i could find some more che related socialistic theories, prior to the revolution.

i guess in the end it was che who proved me wrong... i still dont believe in the goodness of the human heart, but since you guys probably do, i'd say you'll are ahead of our times.
you got the right idea and ideals, but what are you going to do about it. chatting on forums wont change the world...
Che was a Stalinist, man. Some consider him more ruthless than Fidel Castro. He was just as supportive of the suppression of counter-revolutionaries.

If you want to learn more about the bases of Che's theories, I suggest you take a visit to marxists.org (http://www.marxists.org) and read some 'Selected Works' by Lenin and Mao.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/work...ks/sw/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/sw/index.htm)

(What Is To Be Done? and The State and Revolution are generally his two most famous pieces.)

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/...e/mao/index.htm (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/index.htm)


I don't think it is the same David Lane.
This David Lane is a proffessor of sociology at Oxford.

OK, I was just checking.

The David Lane I am thinking of headed a white supremacist organization called the Order which killed a Jewish radio host named Alan Berg. I believe this was in the late 80's, but it isn't worth my time to check.

Regardless, he is actually quite a profilic - and very erudite - writer from behind bars, and it wouldn't have surprised me if he had written a book about the USSR.