Elections with the threat of Grexit

[nomoba]

This is probably the most suitable time for SYRIZA to play the strongest card

http://failedevolution.blogspot.gr/2015/06/elections-with-threat-of-grexit.html

[Comrade Jacob]

I know the idea of the left uniting under an unprincipled alliance will go nowhere, but they have still managed to disappoint me dearly.

[cyu]

The ruling class created governments organized in a pyramid structure. This is what enables a small number of people to rule over the masses - otherwise, the ruling class would be too small in number to effectively control everyone else.

So what happens when the masses elect new people to replace the top of the pyramid? They're just falling into the trap of the ruling class, think they have won, even though the pyramid structure of society remains intact. Even if the "new leaders" cannot be bribed to join the ruling class, they can be intimidated. Nothing changes, and the status quo perpetuates.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The last few months have told us nothing in relation to Greece, since SYRIZA have been playing the capitalist game. I think the concessions they have made have been quite easy to foresee - they are in such a weak position that if they are going to try to 'manage capital', then they will be on the backfoot since international capital holds all the cards vis a vis the Greek economy at the moment.

Once some sort of credit agreement is sorted out, we will then see what SYRIZA are made of, in terms of enacting any sort of pro-worker domestic social and economic policies.

[Futility Personified]

The last thing I read might've been from Jacobin, but iirc it was along the lines of part of the issue in agreeing a credit agreement was that the IMF didn't want sizable pensions fir greeks and were against anything that would strengthen workers in collective bargaining. Nearly everything that syriza would've received a mandate for has kicked up sparks.

[cyu]

When the poor take from the rich, the media calls it class warfare.

When the rich take from the poor, the media calls it capitalism.

[lutraphile]

They probably should call a new election, they are in a good position politically and need out of that awful alliance. Of course, there is already a left-wing majority, but that would require the KKE taking a rational position.

[ckaihatsu]

They probably should call a new election, they are in a good position politically and need out of that awful alliance. Of course, there is already a left-wing majority, but that would require the KKE taking a rational position.


The KKE is ultra-left to the point of irrelevance given the actual situation going on.

[FSL]

The actual situation going on is Syriza having suggested themselves to the troika (with whom they've been negotiating for months) a 10% increase in the sales tax for 28% of foodstuff (among them rice and pasta, food staples), a 10% increase in the sales tax for bus tickets and a 10% increase in the sales tax for sodas and juice.

Also, they're suggesting keeping the real estate tax targeting even the poorest with a hefty sum (one of the main reasons why the previous government was voted out).

Feel free to come to Greece, work for peanuts, pay all those taxes and support syriza because you're leftists who believe in unity or some crap. Honestly, do come. Because there is no way in hell the communist party will support those scumbags.

[PhoenixAsh]

Of course the KKE will never support another party. This however has nothing to do with SYRIZA but with the fact that the KKE sees only itself qualified to lead the / a revolution and will prevent any other group or party from taking that role.

And when it comes to SYRIZA the KKE position is more than a little hypocritical.

A few years back the KKE did not want to leave the EU because of the economic consequences. When SYRIZA gained power you criticised them for not taking a strong enough position. And now you are angry because of continued austerity which is inevitable if you want to stay in the EU.

But here is the kicker....the alternative the KKE peddles is the alternative if a communist revolution (which can of course work in one country) and then leave the EU (because Greece is selfsufficient and has enough money to continue foreign trade for essentials) and they are pissed at SYRIZA because they prevent that revolution....because the majority voted for them and not KKE...because SYRIZA misguided the people by promising to reduce austerity by staying in the EU...which was what the KKE wanted on the short term and argued for

[FSL]

Of course the KKE will never support another party. This however has nothing to do with SYRIZA
You saying that has everything to do with the fact that in your country you support the equivalent of syriza, despite being an anarchist.



A few years back the KKE did not want to leave the EU because of the economic consequences.
I'm sure I've told you that's nonsense more than once, but then again all your arguments depend on nonsense.

Try being useful once and answer this: Do you support all the tax increases syriza is suggesting in its negotiations with the IMF, the ECB and the European Commision? Is that what revolutionary left is all about according to you, competing with the reactionary right to see who will make it worse for the workers?

[PhoenixAsh]

You saying that has everything to do with the fact that in your country you support the equivalent of syriza, despite being an anarchist.


I do?
I haven't voted for the last 16 years....save one or two local elections where I endorsed a specific candidate.

But yeah. When the results come in I do always hope that the most leftwing party possible in our political spectrum wins. And I do see workers abandoning traditional liberal (European sense) & conservative parties in favor of a shift to the right as more aligned with their class interests.


I'm sure I've told you that's nonsense more than once, but then again all your arguments depend on nonsense.

Try being useful once and answer this: Do you support all the tax increases syriza is suggesting in its negotiations with the IMF, the ECB and the European Commision? Is that what revolutionary left is all about according to you, competing with the reactionary right to see who will make it worse for the workers?

And I am sure I have told you repeatedly that I support a Greek exit from the EU.

And that the KKE position of rev first I'd an pipe dream.and necessitates austerity

[Thirsty Crow]

I know the idea of the left uniting under an unprincipled alliance will go nowhere, but they have still managed to disappoint me dearly.
The only people who ended up disappointed with the SYRIZA-IG coalition government are those that deluded themselves - in one way or another.

[ckaihatsu]

The KKE is ultra-left to the point of irrelevance given the actual situation going on.





The actual situation going on is Syriza having suggested themselves to the troika (with whom they've been negotiating for months) a 10% increase in the sales tax for 28% of foodstuff (among them rice and pasta, food staples), a 10% increase in the sales tax for bus tickets and a 10% increase in the sales tax for sodas and juice.

Also, they're suggesting keeping the real estate tax targeting even the poorest with a hefty sum (one of the main reasons why the previous government was voted out).

Feel free to come to Greece, work for peanuts, pay all those taxes and support syriza because you're leftists who believe in unity or some crap. Honestly, do come. Because there is no way in hell the communist party will support those scumbags.


Okay, to clarify, I'm not saying that the KKE should be throwing its support to Syriza. I'm not apologizing for Syriza's capitulation, either.

What I *am* saying is that if the KKE is entryist, which it is, then there should be *some* kind of positioning and maneuvering going on, in relation to the events-at-hand. Otherwise why bother being entryist -- ?

[FSL]

You must be confusing it with some other party.

If you're not against syriza's capitulation, ergo against syriza, then of course you should be apologizing about them.
You can't have it both ways.

[ckaihatsu]

You must be confusing it with some other party.


No -- the KKE is entryist, so my original reasoning follows:





[W]hat I *am* saying is that if the KKE is entryist, which it is, then there should be *some* kind of positioning and maneuvering going on, in relation to the events-at-hand. Otherwise why bother being entryist -- ?





If you're not against syriza's capitulation,


No, I *am* against Syriza's capitulation:





[I]'m not apologizing for Syriza's capitulation [...]






ergo against syriza, then of course you should be apologizing about them.


Incorrect, per the above.

[FSL]

Since I don't really want to play games,
1) KKE is not entryist and I'm sure I know that better than you. Only some trotskyist organizations practice entryism. Maybe you're being cute and mean something else but I don't really care.

2) If you are against syriza (their "capitulation" being a result of that party's class nature) then you obviously wouldn't ever think to suggest to anyone to support them or merge with them or be around them for any other reason than to protest their policies.

If you aren't doing that, then yes, you should be apologizing for the increased sales tax on basic goods that syriza wants to force workers to pay to please the IMF and the ECB. You along with every other non-sectarian progressive leftist the world is sadly filled with.

[ckaihatsu]

Since I don't really want to play games,
1) KKE is not entryist and I'm sure I know that better than you. Only some trotskyist organizations practice entryism. Maybe you're being cute and mean something else but I don't really care.


Okay, I'll take your word for it and adjust my understanding, then.





2) If you are against syriza (their "capitulation" being a result of that party's class nature) then you obviously wouldn't ever think to suggest to anyone to support them or merge with them or be around them for any other reason than to protest their policies.


Nope, I've done nothing of the sort.





If you aren't doing that, then yes, you should be apologizing for the increased sales tax on basic goods that syriza wants to force workers to pay to please the IMF and the ECB. You along with every other non-sectarian progressive leftist the world is sadly filled with.


I certainly rebuff that political characterization that you're foisting on me, since, again, you're just making things up.

[ckaihatsu]

I'm going to have to adjust my understanding *again*, since this part shows that the KKE *is* entryist....





Participation in government[edit]

In 1944, KKE participated in the national unity government of George Papandreou, holding the positions of Minister of Finance, Minister of Agriculture, Minister of Labor, Minister of National Economy and Public Works, and Deputy Minister of Finance.

In 1988, KKE and Greek Left (Greek EAP; the former KKE Interior), along with other left-wing parties and organisations, formed the Coalition of the Left and Progress (Synaspismos). In the June 1989 elections Synaspismos gained 13.1 per cent of votes and joined a coalition with New Democracy to form a short-lived government amidst a political spectrum shaken by accusations of economic scandals against the previous administration of Andreas Papandreou's Panhellenic Socialist Movement. In November of the same year Synaspismos participated in the "Universal Government" with New Democracy and Panhellenic Socialist Movement which appointed Xenophon Zolotas as Prime Minister for three months. In 1991, KKE withdrew from Synaspismos. Some KKE members left the party and remained in Synaspismos, which evolved into a separate left-wing party that is now an alliance of Synaspismos with other leftist groups called the Coalition of the Radical Left.




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_Greece#Participation_in_governm ent

[FSL]

Your understanding seems weak despite your efforts. Participating in two governments in 90 years of existence doesn't make you entryist. Entryism is when you enter a different party to try to change it from within.

Re those two coalitions you mentioned: The first one ended in the battle of Athens in December 1944 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekemvriana and the greek civil war and the second one ended in three months and eventually resulted in almost half the central commitee and many members being expelled from the communist party to create the party of Synaspismos (mainly making up syriza today).

So do try harder. Or give up, any one of the two will do just fine.

[ckaihatsu]

Your understanding seems weak despite your efforts.


Not weak -- 'rusty'. (grin)





Participating in two governments in 90 years of existence doesn't make you entryist. Entryism is when you enter a different party to try to change it from within.


Yes, that's correct. Thanks for the reminder.





Re those two coalitions you mentioned: The first one ended in the battle of Athens in December 1944 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dekemvriana and the greek civil war and the second one ended in three months and eventually resulted in almost half the central commitee and many members being expelled from the communist party to create the party of Synaspismos (mainly making up syriza today).




So do try harder. Or give up, any one of the two will do just fine.


It's down to a coin toss now -- ! (grin)

[cyu]

It's easy to be drawn into the world of "leaders and officials" if you are a consumer of the mass media. If anarchists are supposed to ignore the flailings of "authority" figures, it doesn't really matter what the heads of any political party do, or what any ECB officials do - what matters is what the people on the ground do - that is, direct action.

If workers are not self-sufficient, seize the means of production until they are. If what's available locally isn't enough to be self-sufficient, ignore all borders until there is enough.

What role can politicians in leadership positions have among the actions of anarchists? Nothing really. About the best they can do, is instead of turning a blind eye to the actions of anarchists, give them military support.

[cyu]

No doubt there are even "liberal" types among the pro-capitalist technocrats that don't really want to see Greeks suffer. But nobody gains power in a capitalist system without regularly ignoring the suffering of the underclass - otherwise, they would never have had enough time to climb to the top in the first place. As a result, those at the top of the pyramid have already desensitized themselves to the concerns of those at the bottom. For them, when it comes to weighing the priorities of the ruling class, versus the priorities of those on the verge of death, they've already been choosing the ruling class their entire careers.