were marx and engels racist?

[willowtooth]

were karl marx and engels racists? what about mao lenin and stalin? Some one sent me this link with a list of quotes are these real? were most, if not all communist leaders of last hundred years racists?



“He wrote: “It is now absolutely clear to me that, as both the shape of his head and his hair texture shows, he descends from the Negroes who joined Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or grandmother on the paternal side hybridized with a n****r) … The pushiness of the fellow is also n****r-like.”
- karl marxhttp://www.commdiginews.com/politics-2/karl-marx-communist-leader-and-blatant-racist-18393/

Is there any truth to this?

[Sinister Intents]

I don't think that is an actual quote from Marx. In all of my readings of Marx and Engels, the only place I got paranoid of racism was Origin of the Family, in which the footnotes clarified to me there was no racism. They certainly could've been prejudiced towards anyone though. Afterall Bakunin is a raging reactionary antisemite, Proudhon was a misogynist and a racist, and Kropotkin supported the Allies in WWI. I think I read something about Engels being a wife-beater. As per Mao, Stalin, and others I have no clue. I do know that Che Guevara was a homophobe, but certainly all revolutionary figures we look to for knowledge have their blemishes and scars.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I haven't read enough about the supposed racism of Marx and Engels to know for sure if they were racist or not, but I have seen many cases where some accusations of racism against them are completely unfounded e.g. supporting slavery, being antisemitic. Nevertheless, I would not be really surprised if they were personally a bit racist given that they were white men who lived in Europe during the 19th century.

Unfortunately, the argument about them being racist is usually used by people trying to discredit communism. Their personal views on race, whatever they may be, do not affect whether or not scientific socialism is the most accurate method of understanding the world and its history. The logic is that if Marx was flawed, then Marxism, as a whole, is also flawed.

[RedWorker]

The info and analysis contained in the link there is bullshit. However, they did make racist statements in private correspondence, but the whole of their work was anti-racist and came to play a key role in anti-racist theory. So I think that while it cannot be approved of, it is pretty much irrelevant unless it is proven that it affected their theory.

[Artiom]

1. Take an average persone from that time and society and ask them about multiculturalism, the rights of trans-persons or gender roles, and use the analysis of today, you would find a lot of bad apples.

2. When some one, online, send's you a link with "qoutes" from historical persons (specialy the controversial one's) be cynial.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Marx and Engels did hold racist views. The problem with this article is it's an attempt to poison the well. "Marx and Engels said some racist things therefore everything they said was wrong" is a red herring fallacy.

[mushroompizza]

He wasn't very racist, I mean beliefs like liberating all peoples of the world is not a view held by staunch racists.

[Redistribute the Rep]

1. Take an average persone from that time and society and ask them about multiculturalism, the rights of trans-persons or gender roles[/I]

I say, take the average person who uses this type of argument to discredit Marx, and ask them about this stuff.

You'll find out pretty quickly they are only concerned about racism and other things when it suits their arguments.

[Artiom]

I say, take the average person who uses this type of argument to discredit Marx, and ask them about this stuff.

You'll find out pretty quickly they are only concerned about racism and other things when it suits their arguments.

That was my point.

[Counterculturalist]

I say, take the average person who uses this type of argument to discredit Marx, and ask them about this stuff.

You'll find out pretty quickly they are only concerned about racism and other things when it suits their arguments.

Especially considering that Marx and Engels' racism is regularly highlighted by the sort of people who idolize America's founders, who not only held racist beliefs about America's indigenous people, but also put those beliefs into genocidal practice.

[Sinister Intents]

Especially considering that Marx and Engels' racism is regularly highlighted by the sort of people who idolize America's founders, who not only held racist beliefs about America's indigenous people, but also put those beliefs into genocidal practice.

Reactionaries trying to insist that the radicals are the reactionaries, when in reality the revolutionaries are antithetical to those bourgeois minded individuals that think America's hayday is what we need

[RA89]

As a POC I can confirm Marx is a cool guy.

[RedWorker]

Marx and Engels did hold racist views. The problem with this article is it's an attempt to poison the well. "Marx and Engels said some racist things therefore everything they said was wrong" is a red herring fallacy.

I don't think they held racist views - they just said racist shit in private from time to time. Engels would whine about how this guy or that guy is a Jew in a letter to Marx, then in public in a serious work he explained how stupid anti-Semitism is and why. Marx would explain why "labour cannot be emancipated in the white skin when it is branded in the black", "the emancipation of the productive class is that of all human beings without distinction of sex or race" and give elaborate anti-slavery arguments, then ramble on about "Jewish niggers" in letters to Engels, even though he himself was a non-religious Jew. Pretty weird but as long as it doesn't affect their actual work there's no reason to care about it in 2015.

It's not (only?) that they claim Marx was totally wrong. The article claims, among other things, that Marx was not an internationalist just because he said racist bullshit in private, which is pretty stupid seeing as Marx founded the centerpiece of modern internationalist theory.

[Sinister Intents]

I don't think they held racist views - they just said racist shit in private from time to time.

Which means they probably held racist views, much like those people that use sexist epithets are sexists whether consciously or unconsciously.


Engels would whine about how this guy or that guy is a Jew in a letter to Marx, then in public in a serious work he explained how stupid anti-Semitism is and why.

Bakunin was also very much an antisemite, which becomes at least somewhat apparent with a reading of some of Bakunin's rants. Engels may not have been necessarily antisemitic, but have held internally views which are antisemitic and this would be expressed in private matters. Anyone can espouse reactionary and prejudicial views without knowledge.


Marx would explain why "labour cannot be emancipated in the white skin when it is branded in the black", "the emancipation of the productive class is that of all human beings without distinction of sex or race" and give elaborate anti-slavery arguments, then ramble on about "Jewish niggers" in letters to Engels, even though he himself was a non-religious Jew. Pretty weird but as long as it doesn't affect their actual work there's no reason to care about it in 2015.

Which the blemishes upon one's views do not necessarily contradict the message they're getting across. To both of us it's apparent that Marx and Engels wanted peoples' emancipation and an end to the horrors of their time.


It's not (only?) that they claim Marx was totally wrong. The article claims, among other things, that Marx was not an internationalist just because he said racist bullshit in private, which is pretty stupid when Marx came to found the centerpiece of modern internationalist theory.

I think the article was terrible IMO

I don't really know why I replied to your post but I did.

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[RedWorker]

I'll just leave this here for a good overview:

On Anti-Semitism, by F. Engels (source (https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1890/04/19.htm))

"For anti-Semitism betokens a retarded culture, which is why it is found only in Prussia and Austria, and in Russia too. Anyone dabbling in anti-Semitism, either in England or in America, would simply be ridiculed" - F. Engels

"Hence anti-Semitism is merely the reaction of declining medieval social strata against a modern society consisting essentially of capitalists and wage-labourers, so that all it serves are reactionary ends under a purportedly socialist cloak; it is a degenerate form of feudal socialism and we can have nothing to do with that." - F. Engels

"In addition, the anti-Semite presents the facts in an entirely false light. He doesn’t even know the Jews he decries, otherwise he would be aware that, thanks to anti-Semitism in eastern Europe, and to the Spanish Inquisition in Turkey, there are here in England and in America thousands upon thousands of Jewish proletarians; and it is precisely, these Jewish workers who are the worst exploited and the most poverty-stricken. In England during the past twelve months we have had three strikes by Jewish workers. Are we then expected to engage in anti-Semitism in our struggle against capital?" - F. Engels

"Furthermore, we are far too deeply indebted to the Jews. Leaving aside Heine and Börne, Marx was a full-blooded Jew; Lassalle was a Jew." (!) - F. Engels

"The Jewish nigger Lassalle who, I’m glad to say, is leaving at the end of this week, has happily lost another 5,000 talers in an ill-judged speculation." (!!) - K. Marx (source (http://marxists.catbull.com/archive/marx/works/1862/letters/62_07_30a.htm))

[Sewer Socialist]

Yes, it seems that they said some bigoted things over the years. But, the reasons Marx and Engels are highly regarded isn't because they were some sort of perfect human beings, or better people than anyone else.

It is their theories that are highly regarded, and are not racist.

There are other things that they were wrong about too, of much greater significance than something prejudiced they said once in a letter.

[BIXX]

You think you posted that enough, RedWorker?

[Fourth Internationalist]

You think you posted that enough, RedWorker?

It is probably a technical error.

[BIXX]

It is. I was joking.

This site is degrading badly.

[Armchair Partisan]

Maybe he really wanted to drive the point across.:p

I don't know whether Marx was less racist than average for his time or not, but I understand that the word "nigger" was used in a non-racist manner reasonably often in the 19th century, even in works of literature. Ultimately, I think more context is needed. Either way, we don't study Marx for his anti-racism, now do we?

[Creative Destruction]

It is. I was joking.

This site is degrading badly.

I can't believe the revolution is going to be lead by a bunch of humorless jerks.

[Blake's Baby]

Which means they probably held racist views, much like those people that use sexist epithets are sexists whether consciously or unconsciously...

OK - to examine this proposition, do you really think that Marx and Engels held the view that certain groups of humans (defined by parentage or ethnicity or some other kind of biological factor) were inherently superior or inferior to others?

[RedWorker]

I don't know whether Marx was less racist than average for his time or not, but I understand that the word "nigger" was used in a non-racist manner reasonably often in the 19th century, even in works of literature. Ultimately, I think more context is needed. Either way, we don't study Marx for his anti-racism, now do we?

It does not matter how the word was used. You're referencing someone's ethnicity to attack him. Even if "black" was used instead of "nigger", it'd still be bad.

[Armchair Partisan]

It does not matter how the word was used. You're referencing someone's ethnicity to attack him. Even if "black" was used instead of "nigger", it'd still be bad.

Okay, well, I've read the original sources a little. Gotta admit, that seems to be some nasty racist shit when placed in context.

[Comrade Jacob]

He said racist stuff in private but so did everyone back then. But their hearts lied in anti-racism.

[willowtooth]

He said racist stuff in private but so did everyone back then. But their hearts lied in anti-racism.

this sentence makes zero sense

[RedWorker]

Everyone else doing it is no good excuse. It is true that they were radical anti-racists politically though.

[Rafiq]

They were anti-racists where it mattered. They just weren't politically correct. There is a difference. Of course it's not excusable, and of course such language perpetuates racism, but there is not an iota of racism in the foundations of any of their works. In fact, Marx and Engels new how beyond themselves they were. They joked in private saying that they're glad they'll die before homosexuality becomes politicized, because they knew that if they lived through it, they'd have to defend it. As a logical extension.

[RedWorker]

They joked in private saying that they're glad they'll die before homosexuality becomes politicized, because they knew that if they lived through it, they'd have to defend it. As a logical extension.

Where?

[The_Southern_Leftist]

Regardless of any racist views or statements made by marx or engels they are still sources of ideological inspiration. Just like how Abraham Lincoln was a racist who cared little for the abolishing of slavery until it was useful for him. It does not mean his whole ideological background should be tossed out. As others have said, Red herring.

[willowtooth]

would anyone accept these definitions today? couldn't we say most racists today are just poor and stupid and don't know any better? just like were saying marx and engles grew up in the 1800's so its okay?

[Blake's Baby]

No-one has answered or even tried to answer or even referred to this question, so I'm prepared to repeat it.


OK - to examine this proposition, do you really think that Marx and Engels held the view that certain groups of humans (defined by parentage or ethnicity or some other kind of biological factor) were inherently superior or inferior to others?

A racist isn't someone who calls someone from China a 'Chink'. A racist is someone who thinks that they're better than someone from China because people from China are biologically inferior.

Sometimes these may be the same person. But sometimes they're not; and when they're not, it is the person who thinks that they're superior who is the racist, not the person who uses a crass and insulting term.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So someone who holds that all races are equal but should be kept separate would not be a racist in your view?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Surely there is this overt form of racism, and a more subtle form (e.g. thinking that the Jews are not inferior, but need to take up honest trades and stop engaging in usury). I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest Marks and Angles held either form, however. Using excerpts from their personal correspondence is problematic because we're missing most of the context. Marx obviously didn't call Lassalle a "Jewish nigger" spontaneously, there most likely was some kind of backstory to that statement. But we don't know the backstory. Often it seems to me as though most of the "politically incorrect" statements ascribed to Marx and Engels were sarcastic quips, something Marx in particular liked to engage in.

[Jacky Hearts]

General rule of history: almost everyone important was, at some point or in some various way, an absolute wanker. Marx was actually a bit of a dick a lot of the time to people according to various sources, but that doesn't have any bearing on his theories.

[Naomi]

A racist isn't someone who calls someone from China a 'Chink'. A racist is someone who thinks that they're better than someone from China because people from China are biologically inferior.

Sometimes these may be the same person. But sometimes they're not; and when they're not, it is the person who thinks that they're superior who is the racist, not the person who uses a crass and insulting term. Calling someone chink or nigger is certainly racist. Does that mean the person who said is automatically racist however i don't know, but i see no reason to defend them. If someone says that i would probably call them out on it, regardless if they are racist or not or what the back story is, so what exactly is the point in bringing this up?

I don't care much for what Marx said, like others have said it's probably out of context anyway, however Marx' theories of course isn't racist quite the opposite in fact.

[RedWorker]

Right. So it's just a coincidence that Marx's calling someone a "nigger" in between personal attacks to their behaviour, Blake's Baby? I mean, they obviously were staunch anti-racists as far as their serious work was concerned but come on.


Surely there is this overt form of racism, and a more subtle form (e.g. thinking that the Jews are not inferior, but need to take up honest trades and stop engaging in usury). I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest Marks and Angles held either form, however. Using excerpts from their personal correspondence is problematic because we're missing most of the context. Marx obviously didn't call Lassalle a "Jewish nigger" spontaneously, there most likely was some kind of backstory to that statement. But we don't know the backstory. Often it seems to me as though most of the "politically incorrect" statements ascribed to Marx and Engels were sarcastic quips, something Marx in particular liked to engage in.

Now this is a good explanation and fits in with the facts e.g. Marx was a Jew himself, unlike other theories which fail to explain this.

[Blake's Baby]

Does using the word 'nigger' indicate that someone is a racist?

No; because being 'a racist' means having a theory of different human groups (ie 'races'), constructed on the basis of extrinsic characteristics (eg hair colour, skin colour), that place these 'races' in a hierarchy.

That's a technical definition. Something that doesn't fullfil those criteria isn't 'racist', per se. If you think Jews are exactly the same as everyone else, but they're lazy for cultural reasons (so it's not about their 'race' ie a mistaken idea about biology, but about the cultural attitudes that you perceive in their community) then that's not 'racist', it's culturally-chauvinistic.

Of course, you might be using your cultural chauvinism to cover your biological chauvinism, and really believe that Jews are lazy because they have perverted and inferior blood, or something; but believing a group is lazy doesn't automatically mean you're racist. For it to be 'racist' it must have a conception of the existence of 'race' (ie biologically-based groups). Much as white Europeans aren't being racist about white Americans - they're being culturally-chauvinistic, ditto the English on the French, or the Scots, or Canadians about Newfoundlanders.

So does use of the terms 'nigger' automatically mean that you ascribe to a theory that 'black people as an essentialist category' are inferior to 'white people as an essentialist category'? No, obviously not. Does believing that 'black people as an essentialist category' are inferior to 'white people as an essentialist category' mean that you will use the term 'nigger'? No, it doesn't. Using the term 'nigger' may be a flag of racist attitudes but it doesn't have a 1:1 correspondence. When I was a child, the usual term for a black person where I lived was 'darkie'. I called black people darkies; does that mean I was a racist? No, I was just an ignorant kid, growing up in the context of a society that had racist attitudes. Lack of a theory (even implicit) of 'racial hierarchy' means it isn't 'racist', because 'racist' by definition includes a theory of 'racial hierarchy'. Even if I imported the term 'darkie' into my personal lexicon from my cultural context, if I don't also import the notion of racial hierarchy I'm not a racist; because, being a racist requires a theory of racial hierarchy.

As to believing all 'races' are equal, but should be kept separate - formally this was the position of the South African government, I think, but it was obviously not true, the commitment to 'separate but equal' was only applied in the first instance. There was no equality between the legal communities in South Africa. Otherwise I'm not sure where it appears in real life. If I met someone who believed that 'races' should be kept apart but one wasn't superior to the other, I don't know what I would think. That they were very confused, I guess, and I would suspect that in fact they didn't want 'mixing' because they really believed that their 'race' was better.

Is it just a hypothetical to demonstrate that racism goes beyond constructing hierarchies of races? Or are there actually people with the political view that 'races' really are 'separate but equal' - and if so, why?

[RedWorker]

Ok, then how do you address these comments?

"It is now quite plain to me — as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify — that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow’s importunity is also nigger-like." - Marx

Or: "Being in his quality as a nigger a degree nearer to the rest of the animal kingdom than the rest of us, he is undoubtedly the most appropriate representative of that district" - Engels

I think both that last quote and talk about "one eight of nigger blood" of Lafargue (?), I believe by Engels too, are sourced by Marx & Engels Werke vol. 36, 1967, p. 645. (I verified it in a digital version of the version of MEW printed by the German Stalinist regime)

[G4b3n]

Ok, then how do you address these comments?

"It is now quite plain to me — as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify — that he is descended from the negroes who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandmother interbred with a nigger). Now, this blend of Jewishness and Germanness, on the one hand, and basic negroid stock, on the other, must inevitably give rise to a peculiar product. The fellow’s importunity is also nigger-like." - Marx

Or: "Being in his quality as a nigger a degree nearer to the rest of the animal kingdom than the rest of us, he is undoubtedly the most appropriate representative of that district" - Engels

I think both that last quote and talk about "one eight of nigger blood" of Lafargue (?), I believe by Engels too, are sourced by Marx & Engels Werke vol. 36, 1967, p. 645. (I verified it in a digital version of the version of MEW printed by the German Stalinist regime)

Yes obviously Marx was a racist. And there is no need to pretend like he wasn't, because that doesn't help to legitimize his theories or anything of that sort, what it does do, is it distorts real history, which is obviously an ugly and racist one if you want to be a realist about it. The application of the analysis developed by Marx is heavily Eurocentric, meaning the conception of history derived from this mode of analysis by the classical Marxists essentially amounted to a narrative in which it is the historical role of the whiter worker to abolish oppression and consequentially elevate those who were certainly viewed as lesser races.

But, obviously, Marx's mode of analysis, dialectical materialism, can be applied in a number of ways and produce a number of different political doctrine, because the mode of analysis itself is not doctrine and was never intended to be. Ill try to paraphrase Bobby Seale (Chairman of the BPP) from memory, if anyone can find the quote id appreciate it, it will be choppy, but I remember the message precisely. "If we want to understanding revolutionary politics in the proper manner, i.e., dialectically, then the racism of Marx is irrelevant, what matters is what his philosophy can and is amounting to". Seale was obviously referring to how his party applied the analysis to the colonies of American ghettos, derived from what they viewed as an advancement in theory flowing from Lenin to Mao.

[Pancakes Rühle]

I think Marx was just ignorant... a memorable quote was when he called Lassalle a "Jewish-Nigger".

Is being ignorant an aid to racism and racists, as well as a result of perpetuated systemic racism in society? Yes. Does it necessarily make you a racist? No.

[S. Caserio]

This roughly made quote from Marx terrible claim regarding the necessity of Imperialism "The lazy Mexicans need tutelage" (Spanish and United Statian Imperialism). Cultural ego-centrism, claiming itself to spread civilization.

[A.J.]

That Marx & Engels may have held views people would today consider racist doesn't in any way render Marxism as being racist.

What is racist, however, is the guiding ideology of the British Labour Party - Fabianism. Viewing British colonialism as being a progressive force as it "spreads civilisation" to 'primitive' peoples.

Also, trotskyite sects in Anglo-Saxon countries seem to exclusively consist of white people. Making me think trotskyites must all be racist(much like Trotsky himself).

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

That Marx & Engels may have held views people would today consider racist doesn't in any way render Marxism as being racist.

What is racist, however, is the guiding ideology of the British Labour Party - Fabianism. Viewing British colonialism as being a progressive force as it "spreads civilisation" to 'primitive' peoples.

Also, trotskyite sects in Anglo-Saxon countries seem to exclusively consist of white people. Making me think trotskyites must all be racist(much like Trotsky himself).

In other words, "My personal ignorance means other people are racist."

"I also called Trotsky a racist despite never reading anything by him."

[Leo]

Marx and Engels made racist jokes in their private letters. Though possibly such jokes were more acceptable in their time and they didn't see the connection between racist jokes exchanged in private and the practice of racism in general or the understanding that personal matters are political too; there is no excuse for racist jokes no matter who's made them. Nor should any revolutionary, including those who adopt Marx's method to apologize for these jokes. This doesn't mean they had racist politics and theories in their lives, nor in fact does it negate the fact that they were always against racism in their public political life.