SNP - what do you make of this party?

[Carlos-Marcos]

The SNP (Scottish National Party) - one of the main players in recent UK election, supposedly more left wing that Labour, yet unwittingly handed victory to the Conservatives on a plate.

So, where do you rank this party in terms of leftness and viability?

[Zoop]

They serve to protect and promote the capitalist economy and the making of profit, like any other party. They have to function within the confines of bourgeois democracy, thus introducing an inevitable shit-storm that will screw workers over.

So are they viable? Not at all. Viable alternatives exist outside of bourgeois politics, not within it.

[Comrade Jacob]

Even if the whole of those who voted for the SNP voted for Labour the Conservatives still would of won. (Just being honest)
At least they are anti-austerity and anti-war

[Tim Cornelis]

would've*

I seriously don't get how that mistake gets made, and continuously.

[Armchair Partisan]

would've*

I seriously don't get how that mistake gets made, and continuously.

My high school English teacher once said that native English speakers are actually more prone to the mistake, as they grow up in an environment where they hear the term in a spoken form quite a lot, and associate the similar-sounding spelling "would of" to it as a consequence (which they thus instinctively write sometimes even once they learn the correct spelling), while a foreigner is unlikely to speak much English and learns it by writing it down, thus drilling in the correct spelling. I've no idea if it's true, but it sounds like a plausible and interesting theory.

[#FF0000]

From what I gather, they certainly are more left-wing than Labour. Solidly social democrat.

[Invader Zim]

From what I gather, they certainly are more left-wing than Labour. Solidly social democrat.

Well, that is what they said to get elected. The reality is that they are arch Tories in kilts - and their "anti-austerity" posing is fake as soon as you scratch the surface. If you look at what they actually propose then it is austerity max: both longer and harder than anything proposed by Labour (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/generalelection/general-election-2015-snp-would-impose-deeper-cuts-than-labour-says-watchdog-10199584.html). Moreover they have been in power in Scotland for several years and have relentlessly introduced austerity. Oh, and before the referendum Alex Salmond was championing halving corporation tax down to 10%, a policy beyond even the most insane Tory wet dream.

[Tim Cornelis]

My high school English teacher once said that native English speakers are actually more prone to the mistake, as they grow up in an environment where they hear the term in a spoken form quite a lot, and associate the similar-sounding spelling "would of" to it as a consequence (which they thus instinctively write sometimes even once they learn the correct spelling), while a foreigner is unlikely to speak much English and learns it by writing it down, thus drilling in the correct spelling. I've no idea if it's true, but it sounds like a plausible and interesting theory.

Yeah, that sounds plausible, and applicable to everyone under the age of 14. You make the mistake for a while, get corrected once, or see it written correctly often, and then never make the mistake again once you're 15 and over. Like, I think the mistake of mistaking "your" and "you're" (and "its" and "it's") is obvious but at least both are correct in some contexts. Would of is never correct, so how the mistake gets made continuously, I just dun get.

But yeah, I'm being a pedantic douche.

[Carlos-Marcos]

They serve to protect and promote the capitalist economy and the making of profit, like any other party. They have to function within the confines of bourgeois democracy, thus introducing an inevitable shit-storm that will screw workers over.

So are they viable? Not at all. Viable alternatives exist outside of bourgeois politics, not within it.

What I'm getting at is 'are they really left-wing or not'? - I certainly don't like this petty nationalism idea, but are they any better than Labour for the people of Scotland/UK?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The SNP (Scottish National Party) - one of the main players in recent UK election, supposedly more left wing that Labour, yet unwittingly handed victory to the Conservatives on a plate.

So, where do you rank this party in terms of leftness and viability?
Center-left bourgeois reformists. Though the charge that they're to blame for the Tories winning is nonsense.

[Invader Zim]

Center-left bourgeois reformists. Though the charge that they're to blame for the Tories winning is nonsense.

No, it isn't. It drove enough ukippers back to the Conservatives and those abandoning liberal democrats to the conservatives. It only took literally a few hundred votes across several marginals to hand a majority to Cameron and fear of the SNP handed them that.

[Invader Zim]

What I'm getting at is 'are they really left-wing or not'? - I certainly don't like this petty nationalism idea, but are they any better than Labour for the people of Scotland/UK?


Not remotely, not even when compared to Miliband's Labour. Not even compared to Blair or Brown's Labour.

[Blake's Baby]

No, it isn't. It drove enough ukippers back to the Conservatives and those abandoning liberal democrats to the conservatives. It only took literally a few hundred votes across several marginals to hand a majority to Cameron and fear of the SNP handed them that.

Evidence? Have you polled people to find out if they switched to Tory to block a Labour-SNP coalition? I can't really see that the SNP are to blame for what people in England believe having been told it by the Murdoch press.

I've seen results that indicated that the Greens scuppered Labour in a few marginals. There were something like 3,000 Green votes that gave Cameron a majority.

[Carlos-Marcos]

pretty sure many people felt that an SNP/Labour deal would be bad news, hence voted for the Cons - and let's face it, a party (SNP) that has it's main focus on breaking up the UK is never going to sit that well with the voters

[Invader Zim]

And if they didn't think it was working, why would the Tories put millions into spreading that idea in marginals in the days before the election?

[Blake's Baby]

So, what you're saying is, that a predominantly English party and the press in England appealed to voters in England not to vote Labour because the SNP might break up the Union, which said English entities don't want to happen because...?

In which case, how is it the SNP that handed Cameron a majority? At best, it's anti-Scottish bigotry that handed Cameron a majority.

[Invader Zim]

So, what you're saying is, that a predominantly English party and the press in England appealed to voters in England not to vote Labour because the SNP might break up the Union, which said English entities don't want to happen because...?

In which case, how is it the SNP that handed Cameron a majority? At best, it's anti-Scottish bigotry that handed Cameron a majority.


No, not because the SNP might break up the union - that issue was put to bed last year. The issue was of fears that Alex Salmond and Sturgeon would have huge influence over any Labour government (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11379600/English-voters-believe-Labour-SNP-coalition-will-destabilise-Britain.html).


In which case, how is it the SNP that handed Cameron a majority?

I don't know it can be explained in more simplistic terms for you.

And, of course, the SNP were as much behind the claim that they would running Britain through Miliband and that there would be a coalition. And because of that there isn't, because Labour didn't win.

[Blake's Baby]

It's the SNP's fault lots of English voters don't like the Scots? Gotcha.

[Invader Zim]

It's the SNP's fault lots of English voters don't like the Scots? Gotcha.
You're being an idiot. Stop. It is not about disliking Scots, but disliking the idea of the SNP (which is a single issue party) controlling a Labour Government from the wings - the two are not synonamous. And the fact is that the SNP, the Tories and the conservative tabloids all spread that message with glee and they got the result they wanted by playing to that.

[Blake's Baby]

If you think the SNP is a single-issue party you haven't been paying attention.

If you think the English voting against Labour to stop the SNP having a voice in government isn't motivated by anti-Scots prejudice I don't even know what planet you're living on.

[IrishAnarchist]

bourgeois nationalists

[Carlos-Marcos]

And if they didn't think it was working, why would the Tories put millions into spreading that idea in marginals in the days before the election?

for sure, the Tories played this card as much as they could, but it is still a fact that only a few days before the election Ed Miliband said he would not do any deals with the SNP, even let the Tories win if it came to it. That kind of sealed Labour's loss if you ask me. Same old left-wing factionalism unfortunately.

[Carlos-Marcos]

In which case, how is it the SNP that handed Cameron a majority? At best, it's anti-Scottish bigotry that handed Cameron a majority.

except it is the SNP that want to break up the UK, and go into petit nationalism, why, as a Marxist would you support that?

[Blake's Baby]

bourgeois nationalists

This is a tautology, is it not? If they're nationalist then they're part of the bourgeois political machine. The working class has no country.


except it is the SNP that want to break up the UK, and go into petit nationalism, why, as a Marxist would you support that?

What makes you think I do? Just because Labour are shit I must support the SNP? Brilliant bit of logic there.

[Carlos-Marcos]

If they're nationalist then they're part of the bourgeois political machine. The working class has no country.



That's a matter of opinion, and I'm sure most working class folk would disagree with you there.

[Armchair Partisan]

That's a matter of opinion, and I'm sure most working class folk would disagree with you there.

Most of them would also oppose our LGBT policies, doesn't mean they're right or that we should defer to them in vulgar workerism.

[Carlos-Marcos]

when you say 'our', who the feck are you refering to anyway? I'm a Marxist and I do agree with the idea of the nation state - this site is not only for Anarchists

[John Nada]

when you say 'our', who the feck are you refering to anyway? I'm a Marxist and I do agree with the idea of the nation state - this site is not only for AnarchistsYou're not a Marxist. You're a fucking fascist.

[Carlos-Marcos]

Simple insults are all you seem to have - does Juan Moreno ever contribute anything else?:rolleyes:

[IrishAnarchist]

[QUOTE=Blake's Baby;2833739]This is a tautology, is it not? If they're nationalist then they're part of the bourgeois political machine. The working class has no country.



I think a party or organisation can be nationalist without being apart of the bourgeois machine. I think national liberation and socialist movements like the PKK and EZLN are some examples of this.

[Blake's Baby]

If you support the nation-state, you're not a Marxist. It's that simple. You can chose whether you want to support the politics of the working class, or whether you want to support nationalism, which is the politics of the bourgeoisie. You can't support both because they are antithetical to each other. Workers of whatever nation are all part of the working class. Compatriots of whatever class are all part of the same nation. There is no way to square those two opposing concepts.

[PhoenixAsh]

If you support the nation-state, you're not a Marxist. It's that simple. You can chose whether you want to support the politics of the working class, or whether you want to support nationalism, which is the politics of the bourgeoisie. You can't support both because they are antithetical to each other. Workers of whatever nation are all part of the working class. Compatriots of whatever class are all part of the same nation. There is no way to square those two opposing concepts.

I completely agree.

However...and just saying immediately that this is not apparently the case with this user at all...

There is a difference between supporting nation states and wanting to see nation states break apart into smaller nations as a means towards the abolition of the nation state and the break up of national capitalist interests.

Whether it is effective remains to be seen...but it will surely damage both the United Kingdom and the interests of the bourgeoisie.

[Carlos-Marcos]

If it damages the UK as a whole it will for sure damage the working class and lumpen far more than the bourgeioise - what's so good about that?

[Blake's Baby]

Best not have a revolution then.

[PhoenixAsh]

If it damages the UK as a whole it will for sure damage the working class and lumpen far more than the bourgeioise - what's so good about that?

uhuh...but that is true for almost everything within a capitalist system which is based on this very principle.

[Hit The North]

You're being an idiot. Stop. It is not about disliking Scots, but disliking the idea of the SNP (which is a single issue party) controlling a Labour Government from the wings - the two are not synonamous. And the fact is that the SNP, the Tories and the conservative tabloids all spread that message with glee and they got the result they wanted by playing to that.

There's a Labour Party analysis that they got hit by two petty nationalisms which swayed voters sentiments and fears, but I've yet to see the hard evidence for this. But as an analysis it works to distract the blame from the piss-poor pro-austerity policies of the Miliband Labour Party - policies which are even now being traduced by the Labour leadership contenders as "too left-wing"!

Alternatively, Labour lost Scotland, like they lost England, by being too pro-capital, too Westminster, too tame, and failing to enthuse the millions of people who are suffering under austerity, by organising a "progressive, anti-austerity coalition" of parties.

I haven't seen any hard evidence to substantiate the second scenario either, but I'm suspicious of any narrative that leads Labour to the conclusion that they need to move rightward, as the first one does.

[Црвена]

If you think the SNP is a single-issue party you haven't been paying attention.

If you think the English voting against Labour to stop the SNP having a voice in government isn't motivated by anti-Scots prejudice I don't even know what planet you're living on.

Anti-Scots prejudice? Where did you get that idea from?

Most British people oppose Scottish independence and don't want there to be another referendum, the possibility of which the SNP has refused to rule out. This seems quite sensible to me - I mean, there are more important things people should be worrying about than a redrawing of arbitrary lines. I don't see how this equates to their dislike of the SNP being "anti-Scots prejudice."

[Blake's Baby]

Have you been readding the press in England?

[bricolage]

Obviously we can play the butterfly effect game for ages, but if you are going to talk about how fear of the SNP being part of a governing coalition led many voters to vote Tory (and it clearly did (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCEQyCkwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fcommentisfr ee%2Fvideo%2F2015%2Fmay%2F06%2Fnuneaton-election-2015-scottish-get-in-with-labour-were-done-for&ei=xFBuVbSLDoTYtQWcroHwBg&usg=AFQjCNFzYsXVleiXwewCQbUdWFr69pOQ-A&sig2=aXn-ILH4nZm2eMGdUwG3Cg&bvm=bv.94911696,d.b2w), then you have to talk about how the SNP was able to become such an electoral force that the line peddled by the Tories and the press was so effective. This comes back to a collapse in the relationship between the Labour party and the British working class (specifically those who do not live in London) and it, much like the support Labour haemorrhaged to UKIP in England, is essential in understanding the current state of the working class in the United Kingdom - even if you have no interest in electoral politics.

[Invader Zim]

If you think the SNP is a single-issue party you haven't been paying attention.

If you think the English voting against Labour to stop the SNP having a voice in government isn't motivated by anti-Scots prejudice I don't even know what planet you're living on.


If you think the SNP is a single-issue party you haven't been paying attention.

I would suggest the same of you, or if you have been paying attention haven't tried to read between the lines and instead accept empty SNP rhetoric at face value. As noted, any serious look at SNP policies shows that their anti-austerity newly found leftwing rhetoric is completely hollow. They are just saying that which will give them sufficient political force to ultimately demand another referendum a few years down the line. That is their one primary issue, any other policies they might have, and perhaps some may even support, are entirely subordinate to the cause of independence. That is why they attract not only support from the right - the SNP destroyed the Tory vote in Scotland, not Labour, and now they are going after the leftwing vote - but also the left.


If you think the English voting against Labour to stop the SNP having a voice in government isn't motivated by anti-Scots prejudice I don't even know what planet you're living on.

A stupid suggestion - the SNP do not represent 'Scotland' or 'Scots' any more than the Scottish Labour, Scottish Conservative, and Scottish Liberal Democrats, do. Regardless of whether they voted SNP or any other Party's candidates in, there would still be precisely the same number of Scottish MPs in the Commons. Do you understand how the consituency system actually works? Seemingly not.

Or, alternatively, do you buy into the other hollow SNP talking point that being anti-SNP or anti-independence = anti-Scottish?

[Blake's Baby]

Some anti-SNP views are anti-Scots, yes. Are you old enough to remember Neil Kinnock, and how even Labour voters said they wouldn't vote for a 'ginger Welsh twat'? Anti-Scots and anti-Welsh prejudice is rife in England. You don't have to do a lot of stirring before you find it.

On the whole, the Scots are respected more than the Welsh (or Irish) but not when they get too uppity and forget to be grateful to the English.

And no, I don't think the SNP speak for 'all Scots' or anything of the kind, but the press in England certainly likes to ram home the message that the SNP just want to take money from England to give to people in Scotland (ie, England is helping out the greedy Scots again).

[Red Star Rising]

The same as SYRIZA and Podemos - Fine sentiments, but are they really going to change anything? I doubt it.

[A.J.]

Obviously as a form of false consciousness the rise of Scottish nationalism expresses the fact that, generally speaking, a low level of class consciousness currently exists.

Sad but true.