Police blame baby for being in the grenade's way

[Fire]

http://thefreethoughtproject.com/infant-responsible-grenade-thrown-face/



“Merely by being in that room, Bou-Bou had assumed the risk of coming under attack by a SWAT team. By impeding the trajectory of that grenade, rather than fleeing from his crib, Bou-Bou failed to “avoid the consequences” of that attack.”

Habersham County Sheriff, Joey Terrell, has allegedly given the most asinine defense about why a SWAT team blew a babies face off. The defense was allegedly used in a federal lawsuit on behalf of an infant hit with a grenade by SWAT during a botched raid in May of last year.

As previously covered, Bounkham “Baby Bou Bou” Phonesavanh, 19-months-old, was asleep in his crib. At 3:00 am militarized police barged into his family’s home because an informant had purchased $50 worth of meth from someone who once lived there. During the raid, a flash-bang grenade was thrown into the sleeping baby’s crib, exploding in his face.

Beyond the disfiguring wounds on the toddler’s face, the grenade also left a gash in his chest. As a result, Bou lost the ability to breathe on his own and was left in a medically induced coma for days after the incident. Bou was not able to go home from the hospital until July.

No officers were charged for their near-deadly negligence, and the department claimed that they did not know that there were children in the home. They defended their reckless actions by saying that they couldn’t have done a thorough investigation prior to the raid because it “would have risked revealing that the officers were watching the house.”

The family filed a federal lawsuit for damages that ended last month in a settlement (paid for by taxpayers) not only totaling less than the amount of the infant’s medical bills, but split up between family members. Furthermore, the conditions of the settlement included restrictions on further litigation pursued by the family in order to ensure that taxpayers, not the individuals who almost killed an infant, will be responsible for any further payout.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

Author William Norman Grigg poured over the defense presented in this case by the Sheriff’s Office, and his findings are unbelievable. No officials in their right mind would blame an infant for getting hit with a grenade during a botched raid, right? Wrong, according to Grigg.

The act of sleeping in a room about to be breached by a SWAT team constituted “criminal” conduct on the part of the infant. At the very least, the infant was fully liable for the nearly fatal injuries inflicted on him when Habersham County Sheriff’s Deputy Charles Long blindly heaved a flash-bang grenade – a “destructive device,” as described by the ATF, that when detonated burns at 2,000-3,500 degrees Fahrenheit – into the crib.

Merely by being in that room, Bou-Bou had assumed the risk of coming under attack by a SWAT team. By impeding the trajectory of that grenade, rather than fleeing from his crib, Bou-Bou failed to “avoid the consequences” of that attack.
In any case, Bou-Bou, along with his parents and his siblings, are fully and exclusively to blame for the injuries that nearly killed the child and left the family with more than one million dollars in medical bills. The SWAT team that invaded the home in Cornelia, Georgia on the basis of a bogus anonymous tip that a $50 drug transaction had occurred there is legally blameless.
According to this researcher, the poor family had to listen to those responsible for the mutilation of their child accuse their infant of bringing it upon himself. Apparently it doesn’t matter that the authorities didn’t do a proper investigation, or that they blindly threw explosives into someone’s home “by mistake,” it was the baby’s fault.

In his report, Grigg explains how Baby Bou is the chief plaintiff, and notes the claims made in the Tenth Defense (see page 35) that the injuries and damages “were caused by the deliberate, criminal conduct of plaintiffs.” As the department has failed to specifically denote the parents as the plaintiffs, the defense mounted on behalf of Sheriff Joey and his minions focused squarely on the lead plaintiff, the infant who was nearly murdered in his sleep.

The Free Thought Project reached out to the department in hopes of getting in touch with Habersham County Sheriff’s Office regarding this unbelievable defense. We’re not holding our breath.


Read more at http://thefreethoughtproject.com/infant-responsible-grenade-thrown-face/#l7lGG6hJKjsAC5qK.99

This is what the world is like for poor communities where there is policing by an militarized occupying army who sees the community as an enemy to be fought against. Innocent people are overpoliced and underserved.

Disgusting. Fuck the police and fuck the war on drugs too. They need to admit what they did and pay them the god damned money. These people are suffering because the police couldn't be bothered to see that the previous tenant was their person. But even if they did get the right house, how about not throwing a grenade into a baby crib. And then they went on to hide behind lawyers and dodge all responsibility, while the local prosecutor refused to charge them.

[Comrade Jacob]

They value the grenade more than the baby by how they phrased "baby in the grenades way". Fuck these wankers.

[Tim Cornelis]

This has got to be satire. It's satire. I don't believe this.

[Synergy]

The baby refuses to speak up about his innocence, clearly guilty of something.


This has got to be satire. It's satire. I don't believe this.

The Onion is going to go out of business.

[Fire]

You can read the defenses. They said the plaintif (the plaintif is the baby) engaged in criminal conduct.

actual wording from the response
"To the extent as may be shown by the evidence through discovery, plaintiffs'injuries and damages, if any, were caused by the deliberate, criminal conduct of plaintiffs, and such criminal conduct supersedes any and all negligence or liability,if any, on the part of these defendants"

They did not specify the parents as the plaintiffs and the baby is the primary plaintiff.

Also there was no criminal content on the part of the parents, they were staying at a relatives house after their house burned down. I'm guessing it was in a bad neighborhood and someone who once lived there sold drugs. That person was separately arrested off the streets without a no knock raid.

[Comrade Njordr]

This seems a little too far fetched. I mean... Come on now. Even pigs have a shred of intelligence.

[willowtooth]

This has got to be satire. It's satire. I don't believe this.

100% real and 100% normal

there about 80,000 SWAT raids per year in the USA about 20,000 "no-knock" raids (where a swat team raids your house without knocking) happen per year, only about 30% turn up contraband, or lead to an arrest, and 10% turn out to be the wrong house, theyve killed babies old people and even shot infants in the head, and are almost always cleared, im actually surprised this family got any money at all thats usually not the case.

The police used to raid only couple hundred times a year, than the war on drugs started, and now any american of any age, (usually of a certain income level though) can be radied at anytime and murdered for no reason by the SWAT.

unfortunately in america there is no record of police killings, so how many have died, is as good a guess as anyone's, but we can say for certain they have killed thousands of attack dogs

If you want to hear some horror stories about the swat raids in the USA heres a pretty decent read:
http://object.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/balko_whitepaper_2006.pdf

If you want to donate to or help baby boo boo specifically: http://justiceforbabyboubou.com/

[Invader Zim]

Fucking he'll. That's all I think I can add.

[Ehakamanda]

Thaaat's Georgia law enforcement for you...

[mushroompizza]

Fuck cops, dictators in blue uniforms.

[Bee]

What leftist is surprised about this? :unsure:
The existence of law enforcement as an institution is to protect the state and economic power of the ruling class.
They couldn't care less about the fate of a child.

[Sewer Socialist]

Well, throwing a grenade into a baby's crib is not really needed to defend capital, the state, or te ruling class, so it's pretty absurd, as is the assertion that the baby consciously chose to be hit by the grenade thrown at it.

If they threw one into the bedroom of a militant, it would be quite a bit less surprising.

The police in the United States using excessive levels of force to achieve its' objectives is also sort of a general topic of discussion and organization lately; especially against people of color. Even with all the other news of excessive and reckless force, this stands out as particularly excessive and reckless.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

This is terrible. However, I don't think this should make you despise all law enforcement. Everytime something like this happens some leftists decide to say ACAB and hate all police. Yes the police are there to protect the state's interests but that isn't what most cops think. They think they are helping their community and a lot of them do. They just need convincing that their orders can be used to harm and they need to be brought to the left.

[Tim Cornelis]

So why care what police think? ISIS thinks they are doing humanity a favour, the Nazis believed their communities were helped by creating lebensraum? Why should we them judge by their standards?

[G4b3n]

This is terrible. However, I don't think this should make you despise all law enforcement. Everytime something like this happens some leftists decide to say ACAB and hate all police. Yes the police are there to protect the state's interests but that isn't what most cops think. They think they are helping their community and a lot of them do. They just need convincing that their orders can be used to harm and they need to be brought to the left.

No. Just no.
When your job is to keep the working poor subjugated and to protect the privileged from the working poor, you very existence is contemptible, not just your job. And these people are so far indoctrinated that there is no laying out a solid political argument for them, it just doesn't work that way.

And I bet a few Nazis helped some cats out of trees and "helped" their communities, I guess they shouldn't have been judged because they surely thought they were helping. Right?

Every time pigs storm a house, they are inviting exactly this sort of risk and they fucking know it, and what enables them is nothing short of ruling class economic interests regardless of what they tell themselves. Why the fuck was it their business that someone wanted to buy some meth? Who writes the legalization that makes it their business?

[Zoop]

Everytime something like this happens some leftists decide to say ACAB and hate all police.

Being a bastard is part of the job description. If your primary function in life is to serve the interests of the ruling class and subjugate the population to the whims of this ruling class, then... you're a bastard.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

So why care what police think? ISIS thinks they are doing humanity a favour, the Nazis believed their communities were helped by creating lebensraum? Why should we them judge by their standards?

First off, terrible comparison. You are comparing people who committed genocide to people doing their jobs. This is not to say that I agree with their job. Actually the police do truly exist to serve corporate and state interests. However, that is not what we have been told. From birth we have told by our community, state, schools, and mainstream media that becoming a police officer or member of the military is the best way to serve your community and country. I won't even go into how deeply patriotism has been embedded in most people's mind. The hatred of all cops by the left reminds me of anti-war protesters who spit on soldiers returning from the Vietnam War. Of course the war was wrong but many did not have a choice. And in the capitalist society many do not have a choice still. They can either break their back doing physical labor for wages that are not proportionate at all to their contribution. They can amass hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt and if and only if they get a job in their field then they may be able to pay it off. Or they could go into the military or police which if they go into the military could allow them to go to college for ROTC. Why would they do this? Well there are a few reasons.
1. The indoctrination and propagandizing done in order to draw people to the military or police could make them wish to "serve" their community no matter how far from the truth that is.
2. They could have little to no other option because of many factors including upbringing, education, and personal physical or mental aptitude.
3. They could be using it as a way to get to college thanks to state funded programs benefiting military and occasionally police.
We exist in a capitalist world whether we like it or not and to blame people for doing orders that they cannot disobey (if a officer disobeys an order they can be fired and then the stigma surrounding an officer who refused to do his duty could be so great he never gets another job in his area or at least not a good paying one). Yes I do acknowledge that there are systematic problems in the structure and tactics taught to police. I do not deny that there are issues. However, I do deny that there is a systematic problem with the people who are police. The national estimate is that only 12% of police will ever have to shoot anyone and studies show that police that shoot people end up at a severe risk for PTSD or other mental issues such as depression or drug/alchohol addiction. In this case and others the police in question did a terrible thing. They should be punished and the family be given their payment necessary. However, this does not mean that all police should be blamed or that all of them are bastards. Statements like this are hasty in their condemnation of all police officers. This is not to defend the officers in question just to defend the truth. There is no systematic and cold blooded slaughtering of innocent civilians on a massive scale by the police. Police officers are people and they can often times end up with severe mental trauma for their actions. Why do some leftists treat them all as if they are stone faced and emotionless robots who kill for fun?

[G4b3n]

First off, terrible comparison. You are comparing people who committed genocide to people doing their jobs. This is not to say that I agree with their job. Actually the police do truly exist to serve corporate and state interests. However, that is not what we have been told. From birth we have told by our community, state, schools, and mainstream media that becoming a police officer or member of the military is the best way to serve your community and country. I won't even go into how deeply patriotism has been embedded in most people's mind. The hatred of all cops by the left reminds me of anti-war protesters who spit on soldiers returning from the Vietnam War. Of course the war was wrong but many did not have a choice. And in the capitalist society many do not have a choice still. They can either break their back doing physical labor for wages that are not proportionate at all to their contribution. They can amass hundreds of thousands of dollars in student debt and if and only if they get a job in their field then they may be able to pay it off. Or they could go into the military or police which if they go into the military could allow them to go to college for ROTC. Why would they do this? Well there are a few reasons.
1. The indoctrination and propagandizing done in order to draw people to the military or police could make them wish to "serve" their community no matter how far from the truth that is.
2. They could have little to no other option because of many factors including upbringing, education, and personal physical or mental aptitude.
3. They could be using it as a way to get to college thanks to state funded programs benefiting military and occasionally police.
We exist in a capitalist world whether we like it or not and to blame people for doing orders that they cannot disobey (if a officer disobeys an order they can be fired and then the stigma surrounding an officer who refused to do his duty could be so great he never gets another job in his area or at least not a good paying one). Yes I do acknowledge that there are systematic problems in the structure and tactics taught to police. I do not deny that there are issues. However, I do deny that there is a systematic problem with the people who are police. The national estimate is that only 12% of police will ever have to shoot anyone and studies show that police that shoot people end up at a severe risk for PTSD or other mental issues such as depression or drug/alchohol addiction. In this case and others the police in question did a terrible thing. They should be punished and the family be given their payment necessary. However, this does not mean that all police should be blamed or that all of them are bastards. Statements like this are hasty in their condemnation of all police officers. This is not to defend the officers in question just to defend the truth. There is no systematic and cold blooded slaughtering of innocent civilians on a massive scale by the police. Police officers are people and they can often times end up with severe mental trauma for their actions. Why do some leftists treat them all as if they are stone faced and emotionless robots who kill for fun?

Police exist to protect bourgeois class interests. Talk of "corporate interests" stinks of liberal conspiracy theory. The objective of police is to protect the property owner from those who could threaten that property, i.e., the working poor. It doesn't matter if they were not explicitly told this at any point in time or what they actually believe to themselves while they are carrying out this duty. Do you think the capitalist sees himself as exploiting the worker? Because he doesn't. What matters is the interests they are objectively serving. Do you think the young German boys serving in the Wehrmacht were told they were serving a murderous genocidal regime? Did what they believed to themselves make what they were doing any less atrocious? Did the fact that they were "just doing their jobs" excuse their atrocities? The comparison is spot on.
You should change your name to the southern reactionary.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

Police exist to protect bourgeois class interests. Talk of "corporate interests" stinks of liberal conspiracy theory. The objective of police is to protect the property owner from those who could threaten that property, i.e., the working poor. It doesn't matter if they were not explicitly told this at any point in time or what they actually believe to themselves while they are carrying out this duty. Do you think the capitalist sees himself as exploiting the worker? Because he doesn't. What matters is the interests they are objectively serving. Do you think the young German boys serving in the Wehrmacht were told they were serving a murderous genocidal regime? Did what they believed to themselves make what they were doing any less atrocious? Did the fact that they were "just doing their jobs" excuse their atrocities? The comparison is spot on.
You should change your name to the southern reactionary.

The corporate elite are the bourgeois class they are not the only members but they play a large part. You're playing a game of semantics. And no I do not believe that excuses their atrocities. I already stated that individual officers are to blame for their actions. All I am stating is that being a cop does not immediately make you a bastard any more than buying things does. Both perpetuate the capitalist system. But we aren't going to start practicing counter-economics are we? Of course not. I'm just willing to acknowledge that we live in a capitalist world and that perpetuating it does not immediately make you a bastard because we all perpetuate it. This site used to have adverts for christ's sake. Does that mean that it was now a bastardization of leftist ideals? No it does not. If acknowledging that we live in a capitalist society and we all contribute to it and perpetuate it is reactionary then fine so be it. Using reactionary as Ad Hominem isn't making your case anymore than those that so carelessly throw the word fascist around.

[G4b3n]

The corporate elite are the bourgeois class they are not the only members but they play a large part. You're playing a game of semantics. And no I do not believe that excuses their atrocities. I already stated that individual officers are to blame for their actions. All I am stating is that being a cop does not immediately make you a bastard any more than buying things does. Both perpetuate the capitalist system. But we aren't going to start practicing counter-economics are we? Of course not. I'm just willing to acknowledge that we live in a capitalist world and that perpetuating it does not immediately make you a bastard because we all perpetuate it. This site used to have adverts for christ's sake. Does that mean that it was now a bastardization of leftist ideals? No it does not. If acknowledging that we live in a capitalist society and we all contribute to it and perpetuate it is reactionary then fine so be it. Using reactionary as Ad Hominem isn't making your case anymore than those that so carelessly throw the word fascist around.

The corporate elite are a small quantitative fraction of the bourgeoisie, and police serve the interests of all property owners. Purchasing commodities does not reinforce capitalism in the same way that volunteering to use violence on behalf of the bourgeois state does; one needs to purchase commodities in order to survive. And I say volunteering because it is a choice. Police are drawn from a privileged strata of society, the poorest of those who become educated to be police come from the labor aristocracy, but they typically come from the bourgeoisie. The case is different with soldiers, and a class analysis of the military would produce different results. This site used to have adverts because it needed the money to exist, just like every working person must buy commodities to exist, not every privileged asshole needs to act as a violent fist of the bourgeois state in order to exist. You are comparing apples to oranges, whereas my Nazi analogy was spot on. And it wasn't an "Ad Hominem", your argument is reactionary, and it is not an original one, it has been expounded upon by many reactionary socialists in the past as well.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

The corporate elite are a small quantitative fraction of the bourgeoisie, and police serve the interests of all property owners. Purchasing commodities does not reinforce capitalism in the same way that volunteering to use violence on behalf of the bourgeois state does; one needs to purchase commodities in order to survive. And I say volunteering because it is a choice. Police are drawn from a privileged strata of society, the poorest of those who become educated to be police come from the labor aristocracy, but they typically come from the bourgeoisie. The case is different with soldiers, and a class analysis of the military would produce different results. This site used to have adverts because it needed the money to exist, just like every working person must buy commodities to exist, not every privileged asshole needs to act as a violent fist of the bourgeois state in order to exist. You are comparing apples to oranges, whereas my Nazi analogy was spot on. And it wasn't an "Ad Hominem", your argument is reactionary, and it is not an original one, it has been expounded upon by many reactionary socialists in the past as well.
I know why the site had adverts. I was just stating how we all perpetuate capitalism in some way or form. This ACAB phase is just plain edgy. It does nothing to contribute to socialism and actually further alienates a segment of the population that has just as much proletarian potential as other workers. But instead of winning the individual police over to socialism let's use edgy slogans to hatemonger against them. That's a great strategy!

[Sewer Socialist]

Actually, I think being anti-police is possibly the most popular stance of the left, at least amongst young people, the working class, the homeless, people of color, and maybe other marginalizrd groiups that don't immediately come to mind. They're very unpopular, if only because they do the dirty work of capitalism.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

Actually, I think being anti-police is possibly the most popular stance of the left, at least amongst young people, the working class, the homeless, people of color, and maybe other marginalizrd groiups that don't immediately come to mind. They're very unpopular, if only because they do the dirty work of capitalism.

Not all leftists hate the police. And not all the youth. Mainly in places where police brutality issues have happened is where the youth are anti-police. Most people actually support the police as evidenced by the two cops killed in Hattiesburg with people from all parts of not just Mississippi but the nation. The average working class man or woman supports the police. at least in America. Don't let baltimore or ferguson fool you. The national consensus is pro police even amongst african american circles.

[Sewer Socialist]

Yeah, #notallleftists but leftists for the most part at least dislike the police, or at least nearly every single one I've met.

How have you come to the conclusion of what the average working class man or women supports?

For me, maybe it's more accurate for me to say that amongst those I've talked to over the course of my life, it's the institution that working class and marginalized people hate the most. I also probably disproportionately talk to larger numbers of such people. But nonetheless, it's a popular sentiment.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

Yeah, #notallleftists but leftists for the most part at least dislike the police, or at least nearly every single one I've met.

How have you come to the conclusion of what the average working class man or women supports?

For me, maybe it's more accurate for me to say that amongst those I've talked to over the course of my life, it's the institution that working class and marginalized people hate the most. I also probably disproportionately talk to larger numbers of such people. But nonetheless, it's a popular sentiment.

Can I ask what part of the United State's you are from?
Regional differences could very well play a part because in the south and other conservative states there is an overwhelming support for police and military. The only group of cops people as a whole dislike here are the state troopers because they tend to be the more arrogant bunch. And I will revise my statement because I have a more extensive relationship to the south and southern workers. The southern working class supports the police or at least most of the southern working class.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/22/law-enforcement-trust-poll_n_7118634.html
This is one reason to draw the conclusion that most are not anti police.
While Americans do trust and support the police they do not support their militarization as evidenced here http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/21/police-militarization-poll_n_5697852.html

[G4b3n]

I know why the site had adverts. I was just stating how we all perpetuate capitalism in some way or form. This ACAB phase is just plain edgy. It does nothing to contribute to socialism and actually further alienates a segment of the population that has just as much proletarian potential as other workers. But instead of winning the individual police over to socialism let's use edgy slogans to hatemonger against them. That's a great strategy!

If you are trying to understand capitalism from a Marxist perspective, i.e., dialectically, then you cannot simply view all elements of bourgeois society as equally obliged to revolutionary action. There are elements of society that have no revolutionary potential and must be opposed with physical force, not a friendly chat for political conversion. There is no "winning" police over. Try to have a chat with a pig about revolutionary politics and how their position amounts to subjugation of the working poor, and let me know how it goes.
And if leftists choose to put forward the ACAB rhetoric for the sake of being edgy, then that is on them, but it is the reality of the situation. And to say that we are alienating people by saying all copes are bastards is just false, the only people that would alienate is privileged white folk, labor aristocrats at best.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

If you can honestly belive ACAB then you are dense. You can say the vocation of a police officer is to protect the bourgeoisie and their interests. That is true but you gain nothing from saying ACAB. All you do is alienate them and their supporters. Don't lie and say it doesn't. The backlash from people of every class after a subway employee said that the dead cops was a blessing was enormous. Do not act as if the working class hates the police. It simply isn't true. If ACAB is true they aren't going to accept that by having it flung at them and pushed. They will resent it and view it with the same disdain they had for those calling Vietnam War veterans baby killers.

[Sewer Socialist]

I've lived a lot of places, but always the north.

That poll you link to doesn't refer to the working class, or any class - just "Americans"; more specifically, the Americans who answered a YouGov poll on the Huffington Post. And even that very poll shows black Americans trusting the police at a rate of 36% for local police, and 26% on a national level, not the majority you referred to.

People are not won over only by ideas - everyone knows communism is a good idea, but it seems impossible. Anti-police sentiment is probably in fact a good place to start talking about leftist ideas, but without a visible movement and action, these are just ideas.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

I've lived a lot of places, but always the north.

That poll you link to doesn't refer to the working class, or any class - just "Americans"; more specifically, the Americans who answered a YouGov poll on the Huffington Post. And even that very poll shows black Americans trusting the police at a rate of 36% for local police, and 26% on a national level, not the majority you referred to.

People are not won over only by ideas - everyone knows communism is a good idea, but it seems impossible. Anti-police sentiment is probably in fact a good place to start talking about leftist ideas, but without a visible movement and action, these are just ideas.

I never referred specifically to black americans. Whites make up the majority so while of course the minorities matter, more of the working class is white and the majority of Americans trust the police. Regionally it may differ but I for sure will not gain any support waving an ACAB sign here. The conservative mind is powerful in America and approaching working class people without inflammatory slogans that go against everything their parents and community has taught them does not bring them to communism, it alienates them. I'm not saying that we can never bring up the issue to people but we can get more support by first going after the economic negatives of capitalism than we can by jumping on the anti cop band wagon making us appear no better than what most consider edgy thieves who rioted for an excuse to steal. Like it or not that is how many media portrayed baltimore and being lumped in with them can cause usually open people to shut us out.

[Sewer Socialist]

You just said:

The national consensus is pro police even amongst african american circles.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

Don't think I feel that minority proletarians have less meaning. I don't think that. However, I do not find it productive to know what African Americans specifically think about the police and base all claims from their view. The view of most americans as a whole is what matters not any one specific ethnic group.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

You just said:

Yes but in the subsequent post I revised that statement and said that I have experience with the southerner and could only give my experience there. Then I showed the poll and yes I agree according to that nationally african americans do not trust police. In my area it is different. Most do trust or at least support them. Here it is very rare to hear an honest anti police statement from someone that is not involved with crime. The legal working ones have little anti cop sentiment in my area.

[Sewer Socialist]

Anyway, I don't wave a sign that says ACAB, I don't initiate conversations with it, but people say it all the time, wear it on hats, shirts, have tattoos of it, etc., and people love going against what their parents taught them! Maybe some dads are into hearing about Marxist economics, but I sure don't come across them anywhere.

If the nuclear family-friendly leftism were the only leftism there was, I'd be the biggest anti-leftist around.

Embrace the real movement, and stop worrying about respectability! Respectability politics is more the domain of Bill Cosby, Charles Barkley, and those sort of right-wing curmudgeons.

[#FF0000]

I'm not sure why the prevailing opinion of working class people matters here, though.

[G4b3n]

If you can honestly belive ACAB then you are dense. You can say the vocation of a police officer is to protect the bourgeoisie and their interests. That is true but you gain nothing from saying ACAB. All you do is alienate them and their supporters. Don't lie and say it doesn't. The backlash from people of every class after a subway employee said that the dead cops was a blessing was enormous. Do not act as if the working class hates the police. It simply isn't true. If ACAB is true they aren't going to accept that by having it flung at them and pushed. They will resent it and view it with the same disdain they had for those calling Vietnam War veterans baby killers.

The poor working class does in fact by and large hate the police. Why? Because they deal with the bulk of police repression along with the lumpenproletariat, the vast majority of whom is safe to say hate the police. Sure, there are sections of the white working class entrenched in bourgeois morality (most notably the labor aristocracy) who admire the police. However, it is to be expected that a great deal of labor aristocrats would like to cling to their economic privilege even during revolutionary conditions.

But regardless of who hates and who admires the police, it does not change the reality of conditions, which is that all copes are bastards, it is the job description. One cannot be a pig and not an oppressor, it is not possible. And if this alienates a few poor workers and the entire labor aristocracy then so be it, it is the job of the communists to analyze objective material conditions, not to flee from this analysis for propaganda purposes, that is a complete failure in the basic objectives of the communist.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

I'm not sure why the prevailing opinion of working class people matters here, though.

First, the opinions and ideas of working class people are important at every stage. You need to develop class consciousness. You do see it developing from inflaming and hatemongering against a group we are indoctrinated to respect? Do not lead with ACAB. We want to the working class to be lead into a system that keeps all equally benefited and sustained economically, socially, and physically. In order to build this system we need to gain their support and there are a hundred other ways to bring them to Marxist thinking. In a country where most support or trust the police do not start there. Start the discussion with issues and things they do not support such as the tax evasion by the rich or unemployment, poverty, debt, and the cost of schooling. We need to be smart with our slogans and phrases. "Workers of the world unite" would gain more traction than "Stupid Arses Shake Hands". You need to be presentable to the people as for their best interests and gradually shake their deeply held ideas about the state and its entities. I do not know of one successful revolution where in the early stages the leaders and members declared all the police of the state as evil bastards who are despicable.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

The poor working class does in fact by and large hate the police. Why? Because they deal with the bulk of police repression along with the lumpenproletariat, the vast majority of whom is safe to say hate the police. Sure, there are sections of the white working class entrenched in bourgeois morality (most notably the labor aristocracy) who admire the police. However, it is to be expected that a great deal of labor aristocrats would like to cling to their economic privilege even during revolutionary conditions.

But regardless of who hates and who admires the police, it does not change the reality of conditions, which is that all copes are bastards, it is the job description. One cannot be a pig and not an oppressor, it is not possible. And if this alienates a few poor workers and the entire labor aristocracy then so be it, it is the job of the communists to analyze objective material conditions, not to flee from this analysis for propaganda purposes, that is a complete failure in the basic objectives of the communist.
I used to think all cops were bastards. Then I objectively looked at it and realized that they are people and it differs from person to person whether they are bastards. It is a form of stereotyping to assert that all cops are bastards. It is no better than saying all the homeless are lazy or that all the poor are bums.

[G4b3n]

I used to think all cops were bastards. Then I objectively looked at it and realized that they are people and it differs from person to person whether they are bastards. It is a form of stereotyping to assert that all cops are bastards. It is no better than saying all the homeless are lazy or that all the poor are bums.

You haven't quite gotten this class analysis thing down yet it seems.

The notion of homeless people being lazy or poor people being "bums" is a downward flow of ideas, which is the flow of mainstream cultural notions and the essence of bourgeois ideology, a prime example of bourgeois mental production. These are notions that serve as justification for the subjugation of the poor, which legitimizes the economic atrocities of bourgeois society. Poverty, in reality, is a violent man made atrocity and not a reality of the material world as bourgeois ideologues would like to perpetuate. But much like the pigs who roam the streets, these notions serve to protect society and those privileged by it against those who suffer from these atrocities. The only differences are the realm of the abstract and the material.

It is not "stereotyping" to correctly analyze the duties of the pig. And again, in reference to your liberal analysis, the Nazis were people too. Opinions varied from person to person on them. So I guess they weren't bastards?

[Sewer Socialist]

Are you fucking kidding me? Anti-cop sentiment is just as bad as anti-homeless sentiment?

For someone who is going around calling other people dense, that is quite the dense statement.

One violently defends the bourgeois order, one is violently crushed under it's boot. The cops are not an oppressed group, and that is a bad thing! They must be not only oppressed, but persecuted, dismantled, and permanently barred from re-emergence.

[#FF0000]

First, the opinions and ideas of working class people are important at every stage.

yeah yeah yeah and you have to engage with people on their terms and win them over which is fine but you're not talking about winning them over because you started this all off with police apologia. So I don't buy this angle from you because I don't think you're discussing in good faith there.

Regardless of what a person does, thinks, or feels, when they are acting as a cop, their job is to maintain the status quo, which is a society of class stratification, racism, sexism, etc. It might not be a popular view among workers now, but you can't build a class for itself by just dropping any view or critique of society that isn't popular with people now.


I do not know of one successful revolution where in the early stages the leaders and members declared all the police of the state as evil bastards who are despicable.

Yeah I remember the Bolsheviks were real fond of the Tsar's police and felt awful sorry about it when they had to shoot them.

[Bala Perdida]

Hey great! The cop talk again!
Well, I've known exactly one ex-cop that I've been able to tolerate in my life. Even that guy made me uncomfortable in his presence. With his comedic racism and conservative views and glorification of bourgeoisie sending Vietnamese proletarians to gulags over a ring. It's a seemingly prevailing attitude with these folk. Anyways that doesn't matter.

Look at the jail and prison system in the U$A. Just read articles or watch a documentary on how absolutely miserable life is in those cages. Not just miserable, straight up brutal. After the image of hell is burned into your mind, take a look at how much of the US population is being jailed. Take a look at what minor activities can put a person into a place like that. Take a look at how it's increasing and what characteristics are more likely to land a person there. Now, if you actually do seek the liberation of the people (or proletarians, working class, whatever.. ) or have any sense of altruism guiding you, it's necessary to ask yourself. Why should anyone be forced to go through such a place for doing anything? The answer, they shouldn't! Personally, I'd prefer death before being locked up like that. I fear torture more than death. Who would honestly think they're doing any good by locking people up like this?

Guess who, the cops. That is why all cops are bastards. That is why people says fuck the cops. They sign up for a job, where they send people to hell. Among many other fucked up things they are known for doing, they undoubtedly know they are sending people to such a place. That is fucked up. Sure I chant "Send that killer cop to jail" but ironically I don't actually mean that too much. I've heard to much bad stuff about those places to even want to send a scumbag like that there. I'm not gonna say what I would have as an alternative, but some already know.

Despite all the other ways cops are literally hired to enforce oppression, caging stands out the most. That's not even counting the 'illegitimate' stuff they get away with. So sure, you could have an acquaintance that's a cop. You could know a cop that let you go free after he caught you drunk. You could have a cop that you talked and laughed with once, or even had a cop that saved your life once. Some of these have happened to me and I thought the cops were pretty friendly. But I didn't disregard the fact that they're bastards, I didn't automatically assume trust to them. Hell no. How many people did these 'nice cops' send to jail? How many people did they help deport? The list just goes on.

Being latinx in a community that the cops frequently harass, I've personally come to fear these types. I don't wanna go to jail. I don't wanna be hassled. Fuck the cops. Why should I have to live in fear. Most people would say my case is mostly a personal inconvenience, not that bad, to many people have it worse. Why should anybody have to live in fear because a cop is just 'doing their job'. Fuck cops.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

Are you fucking kidding me? Anti-cop sentiment is just as bad as anti-homeless sentiment?

For someone who is going around calling other people dense, that is quite the dense statement.

One violently defends the bourgeois order, one is violently crushed under it's boot. The cops are not an oppressed group, and that is a bad thing! They must be not only oppressed, but persecuted, dismantled, and permanently barred from re-emergence.

I am not saying that all anti cop sentiment is bad. I am saying that we should not pander to the same form of stereotyping that the right does. We cannot and should not blame all of a group for the actions of some. I see nothing gained. I see nothing created. It is a destructive force that makes leftism, which is already hated and demonized by both media and culture, seem even more antagonistic to the people it claims to help. You will never gain success by starting your program with attacking a deeply held cultural or personal belief. An american leftist group will not gain any more relevancy stating ACAB. Just like how they will not gain power being militant atheist. It just won't work and you must, if you hope to gain the working class' support, hold some sort of decency towards things they hold sacred. Even in a post revolution society police would inevitably exist in the transitionary state. Why put so much time and energy into alienating the working class. Especially the rural working class. Be smart about what you use as the forefront of your battles. The nazis did not come into power by going against the core virtues and values of the german people. Castro did not take power by advocating a hatred and anger towards all government officials. He actually explicitly states in the speech "History Will Absolve Me" that he and the revolutionaries are only taking an insurrection against the unconstitutional and morally corrupt regime of Batista. They did not slander and paint all police as evil which helped them later on. To demonize a group will not make them join you. It will leave them and their families against you. And the repeated nazi comparison is disturbing. No I cannot claim all nazis are bastards. Some realized what was going on and helped jews escape. Were those individuals bastards? Is any good they do negated by the actions of others? Or how about that specific one who attempted to kill hitler. His plan failed but is he instantly evil. Are we all guilty by association now? That seems to be what you are saying. You completely disregard that there are times when being a police officer may be the only plausible solution. You care more about your ideological concepts of the oppressor class than you do about the real world truth about capitalism. Not everyone can live without having to protect the system. Tell me this. Would you rather support your family as a police officer or would you let them starve? You are arguing strictly from ideological idealism. I am arguing from practicality. I would rather begin working with the proletariat and make something happen than alienate them.

[The_Southern_Leftist]

yeah yeah yeah and you have to engage with people on their terms and win them over which is fine but you're not talking about winning them over because you started this all off with police apologia. So I don't buy this angle from you because I don't think you're discussing in good faith there.

Regardless of what a person does, thinks, or feels, when they are acting as a cop, their job is to maintain the status quo, which is a society of class stratification, racism, sexism, etc. It might not be a popular view among workers now, but you can't build a class for itself by just dropping any view or critique of society that isn't popular with people now.



Yeah I remember the Bolsheviks were real fond of the Tsar's police and felt awful sorry about it when they had to shoot them.

The police apologia you're referring to is me saying don't be dipshits and jump to conclusions that state all police are evil people. I get it. The police have a job that is contrary to communism. They are protectors of private property and I do understand that. I just don't see any reason to hate a group off of those reasons. If the police were straight up murdering people for no reason in mass numbers I would get it, but that isn't the case. Yes police brutality and shootings are a problem. But I think that when you're family or friends go out there and actually put themselves in danger dealing with people that honestly don't care about anything but making enough money to buy their next crack rock or hit of meth and will go to any lengths to get that I think most would view it different. Most on the left don't have police family or military family. We tend to isolate ourselves from the fact that they are real people with real families and real problems just like the rest of us. And when a member of your family shoots somebody and ends up getting PTSD because of it you look at ACAB a lot differently. You realize they are not cold ruthless commie killing machines that hate everyone.

[#FF0000]

It isn't stereotyping, though. The police, as an institution, lack any sort of serious oversight or accountability, and their job is to maintain a system of exploitation. A cop might be a good person at home when the badge and gun is away (arguably), but one can't be a "good cop".

[Sewer Socialist]

Okay, ACAB is out, can we still use Fuck The Police? That one comes with a song and everything.

Seriously though, I don't give a shit about how the Nazis came to power, because I'm not interested in a fucking reactionary petty-bourgeois putsch. I don't worry if the cops join me, because I already know they won't. There were probably quite a few cops who supported the Nazis, though. Is that why you're looking to win them over?

The Nazi who killed Hitler, and those who tried to kill him (there were several; it was a conspiracy) - this was to save the empire, save the legacy of Naziism, to realize the gains of genocide. It was not to defeat Nazi Germany, but to preserve it.

Anti-police sentiment is not some ultra-leftist thing; it is a real force, it is a real movement. If anything's idealist, it's thinking that the police are just more members of the working class who will be won over to leftist revolution with ideas, you know, the basis of idealism.

I don't have a family, and I don't want to support a family. What is your obsession with families? The nuclear family is one of the most conservative institutions of the world. Hopefully, communism destroys it soon! At any rate, literally no one has to either become a cop or starve. When is that ever anyone's choice for a job?Anyway, my opinion of the police is not a moral one. I don't like them, but that is my subjective opinion, and one I have come into possession of throughout the course of my life, and one I share with many people I meet. I know people sometimes become cops with good intentions (often not), but that doesn't matter. The nature of the job is inherently to be the class enemy of me and my comrades; the job transforms people, and those who try to even act as reformist whistleblowers are thrown out.

I am not alienating anyone. Do we live on the same planet? Your dad-cop politics are alienating me.

[Bala Perdida]

We cannot and should not blame all of a group for the actions of some.
"They sign up for a job, where they send people to hell. Among many other fucked up things they are known for doing, they undoubtedly know they are sending people to such a place."

An american leftist group will not gain any more relevancy stating ACAB.
I'm surprised they gained any relevancy at all.

I cannot claim all nazis are bastards. Some realized what was going on and helped jews escape. Were those individuals bastards?
They put people in those camps in the first place, I would say yes.

Or how about that specific one who attempted to kill hitler. His plan failed but is he instantly evil.
Please tell me a situation when a cop tried to assassinate the president.

You completely disregard that there are times when being a police officer may be the only plausible solution.
"You could have a cop that you talked and laughed with once, or even had a cop that saved your life once... How many people did these 'nice cops' send to jail? How many people did they help deport?"

Tell me this. Would you rather support your family as a police officer or would you let them starve?
I'd rather steal to feed my family. It takes a lot of time to become a cop. The family is gonna starve by their first paycheck. If there are resources to keep cops fed, they are probably easier to steal than to infiltrate.

You are arguing strictly from ideological idealism. I am arguing from practicality. I would rather begin working with the proletariat and make something happen than alienate them.
I don't remember any movement worth respecting that started simply out of words and papers. Keep in mind, a movement is not a theory. If you give people something that will physically help them, they are more likely to listen to you regardless of how stupid your ideas sound.

The police apologia you're referring to is me saying don't be dipshits and jump to conclusions that state all police are evil people.
No. It's refusing to understand that trying to gain a support base from the people that are paid to make sure we don't do anything that comes close to communism is just absolutely pointless and counterproductive. To think that their participation in such an organization is anything but absolutely reactionary. Goddamn it your making me sound like a marxist!

If the police were straight up murdering people for no reason in mass numbers I would get it, but that isn't the case.
Black Lives Matter

But I think that when you're family or friends go out there and actually put themselves in danger dealing with people that honestly don't care about anything but making enough money to buy their next crack rock or hit of meth and will go to any lengths to get that I think most would view it different.
People in the hood hate cops the most it seems. This is a really vague and not to well defined statement.

[John Nada]

The police apologia you're referring to is me saying don't be dipshits and jump to conclusions that state all police are evil people.There is no evil, only shades of grey. But cops are not my shade of red.
I get it. The police have a job that is contrary to communism. They are protectors of private property and I do understand that. I just don't see any reason to hate a group off of those reasons. If the police were straight up murdering people for no reason in mass numbers I would get it, but that isn't the case.Are you trolling? Cops are killing and kidnapping people in massive numbers.
Yes police brutality and shootings are a problem. But I think that when you're family or friends go out there and actually put themselves in danger dealing with people that honestly don't care about anything but making enough money to buy their next crack rock or hit of meth and will go to any lengths to get that I think most would view it different.Hustling to survive under capitalism is to be expected. Anesthetizing oneself is a rational response to this irrational world. Drugs should be legal anyway.
Most on the left don't have police family or military family. We tend to isolate ourselves from the fact that they are real people with real families and real problems just like the rest of us. And when a member of your family shoots somebody and ends up getting PTSD because of it you look at ACAB a lot differently. You realize they are not cold ruthless commie killing machines that hate everyone.Why do you make sweeping assumptions about leftist. Why you discriminating against us like that!:lol:

That cop has no problem smoking kids and throwing parents with families to feed into the prisons. If they get PTSD for that fuck up shit, good. They had zero concern for all their victims well-being.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You completely disregard that there are times when being a police officer may be the only plausible solution. You care more about your ideological concepts of the oppressor class than you do about the real world truth about capitalism. Not everyone can live without having to protect the system. Tell me this. Would you rather support your family as a police officer or would you let them starve?

Um, being a police officer is a highly paid job with many benefits, and the selection process is strict. If I had no job and wanted to feed my family I would be a dishwasher rather than a policeman.

I mean others have already addressed the role of police in class society, but this is the same as saying "would you rather support your family as a manager or would you let them starve".

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

One does not fall into policing in the same fashion that one might fall into military service out of desperation. If you have fucked up credit or a criminal history you aren't getting in, which is the type of situation that might cause a person to fall into any kind of employment that's available. It's a career you intend to pursue, because it requires some level of planning on the part of the applicant. There are no unintentional cops, there a deluded cops who think they are helping people. But shit, people murdering peasants in Afghanistan delude themselves into thinking they're helping people in the US all the time. So what.