Is it degrading or what?

[Philosophos]

So I went to a club the other night and as usual there were professional dancers dancing half naked and some of them were in cages.

Two friends of mine started talking and the one said that it's really degrading for these women to be treated like this. He especially insisted in the cage thing and also added that they are not fucking zoo animals to watch them like this.

The other guy on the other hand said that they are all adults and can make their own decisions and if that's the way they want to make money then they can do that, there is nothing degrading about it. In addition he said that if we went to see a dancing show that had half naked girls there would no problem and we would call it art of some sort.

I really can't make my mind up on who is right, cause I also believe that they are adults and can make their own decisions and so on, but I also know the minds of the people that are watching them and dammit I can't choose a 'side'.

What's your opinion on this?

[Left Voice]

It's not a new debate, it's actually a whole field of feminist thought that I don't pretend to be an expert on.

But to reduce it to a person's right to make their own decisions ignores the context in which these decisions are made. To what extent are these decisions take on the basis of financial necessity? To what extent is a person's decision affected by their internalisation of societal views on sexualisation? Particularly with regard to the role of women (in this case, the cage)? To what extent is the lower societal status of females being reinforced?

I generally take a sex-positive view of feminism so I don't have issues with the sexualisation of the human body per say, but this much be viewed within the context of the aforementioned questions and many others.

We're not liberals - we cannot take decisions in absolute terms, but instead understand the societal context for these decisions.

[mushroompizza]

Im a sex positive feminist so I think yes I guess its degrading but they should totally be allowed to do it and you should feel no shame if you enjoy it.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I see it as the same as women who want to be housewives. That is fine, but they can still be feminists and oppose that as being women's role in society, even if they want to do it themselves

[RA89]

Guess a lot of it depends on perception. I'd feel like the degraded one if I ever went to a strip club personally.

I think objectively the strippers are degraded if they're in it for the money. They're being exploited just like every other worker except their exploitation involves their body which is bad.

If they're in it because they enjoy it then I'd say it's not degrading.

[Sinister Intents]

The strippers that go to the club to work, that want to do it, though rare I'm sure, are not necessarily feeling like they're being exploited, but they're still being exploited by (a) capitalist(s) and perverse men that are a part of the problem.

They're being exploited as if they're property no matter how you cut it. The degradation aspect would be subjective, it would be up to the individual to say.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

But to reduce it to a person's right to make their own decisions ignores the context in which these decisions are made. To what extent are these decisions take on the basis of financial necessity? To what extent is a person's decision affected by their internalisation of societal views on sexualisation? Particularly with regard to the role of women (in this case, the cage)? To what extent is the lower societal status of females being reinforced?
Exactly. As a sex positive feminist, I'm not going to tell another woman what she can and can't do with her body, but there's no such thing as a free choice abstracted from ideology.

[RA89]

The strippers that go to the club to work, that want to do it, though rare I'm sure, are not necessarily feeling like they're being exploited, but they're still being exploited by (a) capitalist(s) and perverse men that are a part of the problem.

They're being exploited as if they're property no matter how you cut it. The degradation aspect would be subjective, it would be up to the individual to say.


If they're being exploited then aren't they being objectively degraded since it's degrading to be exploited?

[consuming negativity]

the concepts of degradation and exaltation are entirely social and they are in recognition of social hierarchy

so then there's really nothing inherently "degrading" about anything, but things are the way they are for a reason

it's all in our heads and it's a battle of perspective. as an example, someone could argue that it's not degrading because the women are already lower than us and are merely expressing it through this form of art. not that i agree with that, but whether or not it's degrading really depends on the way that you see things to begin with, and you can be a sexist or not and disagree with other sexists (or not) for different reasons.

really, what matters is the context. rather than focusing on the actions, i'm more concerned with the actions and beliefs of the people around the dancers. if they're being respected and treated like human beings, then i'm more or less fine with the situation. but if they're being genuinely disrespected or social hierarchy is otherwise being reinforced in a real way, i would take serious issue with that. not with the women's actions because of that, but i would take issue with the situation as a whole and in particular with the actions and beliefs of the patrons.

that said, just because someone sees something as degrading doesn't mean it is. for example, originally, bars were put around strippers for their protection. but now, who knows why they're being put up in each situation? it could be any combination of reasons. maybe even both at the same time. the problem really isn't whether or not it's good or bad, it's that we keep trying to categorize everything into strictly "good" or "bad" categories. it just is what it is. enjoy it or not, understand why that is, and do what you think is best. but recognize that trying to "save" people necessarily reinforces the social hierarchy of the situation - i think that part of the reason some sex workers take such issue with people who think the way i do is because we're so prone to wanting to be angels of goodness to people who never saw things the way we did in the first place. if you don't think you're being exploited, someone trying to save you from exploitation doesn't seem like a savior, but an idiot, who is probably looking down on you. all you can really do is show respect and treat them the way they want to be treated.

[The Intransigent Faction]

So I went to a club the other night and as usual there were professional dancers dancing half naked and some of them were in cages.

Two friends of mine started talking and the one said that it's really degrading for these women to be treated like this. He especially insisted in the cage thing and also added that they are not fucking zoo animals to watch them like this.

The other guy on the other hand said that they are all adults and can make their own decisions and if that's the way they want to make money then they can do that, there is nothing degrading about it. In addition he said that if we went to see a dancing show that had half naked girls there would no problem and we would call it art of some sort.

I really can't make my mind up on who is right, cause I also believe that they are adults and can make their own decisions and so on, but I also know the minds of the people that are watching them and dammit I can't choose a 'side'.

What's your opinion on this?

There's nothing contradictory about women being adults who can make their own decisions (insofar as any person does, given the external factors which consciously or subconsciously influence those decisions) and those decisions being ones that reinforce patriarchy and its associated pigeonholing into gender roles. That said, a woman choosing to be a housewife should not be scolded. Is there something different, though, between consciously embracing unpaid domestic service and consciously embracing the commodification of one's own body?

[Philosophos]

really, what matters is the context. rather than focusing on the actions, i'm more concerned with the actions and beliefs of the people around the dancers. if they're being respected and treated like human beings, then i'm more or less fine with the situation. but if they're being genuinely disrespected or social hierarchy is otherwise being reinforced in a real way, i would take serious issue with that. not with the women's actions because of that, but i would take issue with the situation as a whole and in particular with the actions and beliefs of the patrons.

Well everytime I hear guys, saying things like "I would tap THAT" and so on, that's one of the reasons that I think that most guys think of the dancers as objects or that they deserve to have sex with her because, apparentely, she does this job thus she has lots of sex with random guys-> fuck logic. Generally they don't respect them, that's why I had this question. It's not that the dancers are doing something degrading, it's they way they are perceived by others (and I think they pretty much know this).

If for example I was in this situation, I would never do something like that, but again that's me.

And to also answer your last comment, I'm not trying to save them or show them the correct path. It's just something I thought the other day and I wanted to share it with people that have pretty much the "same" opinions as I do, that's all.

[Philosophos]

There's nothing contradictory about women being adults who can make their own decisions (insofar as any person does, given the external factors which consciously or subconsciously influence those decisions) and those decisions being ones that reinforce patriarchy and its associated pigeonholing into gender roles. That said, a woman choosing to be a housewife should not be scolded. Is there something different, though, between consciously embracing unpaid domestic service and consciously embracing the commodification of one's own body?

My question was mostly based on the idea, that most people tend to see that there is no problem with these dancers, dancing they way they do etc, but not because they think that they are adults that can make their own decisions, but for various reasons that are really sexist and degrading. They make it look degrading not that the girls are doing something wrong. That's how I was in this dilemma of opinion.

[consuming negativity]

Well everytime I hear guys, saying things like "I would tap THAT" and so on, that's one of the reasons that I think that most guys think of the dancers as objects or that they deserve to have sex with her because, apparentely, she does this job thus she has lots of sex with random guys-> fuck logic. Generally they don't respect them, that's why I had this question. It's not that the dancers are doing something degrading, it's they way they are perceived by others (and I think they pretty much know this).

If for example I was in this situation, I would never do something like that, but again that's me.

And to also answer your last comment, I'm not trying to save them or show them the correct path. It's just something I thought the other day and I wanted to share it with people that have pretty much the "same" opinions as I do, that's all.

i don't think it makes the action itself degrading just because some people don't have respect when they should, though

the people are still who they are and they're beautiful inside and out, no matter what people attribute to them based on their own ignorance

i bet being a bouncer at one of those joints and getting to kick the shit out of a bunch of drunk misogynists every day would be pretty fucking dope though

[Philosophos]

i bet being a bouncer at one of those joints and getting to kick the shit out of a bunch of drunk misogynists every day would be pretty fucking dope though

Well as Dylan Moran once said, I'm not a fighter, I'm a bleeder. the best I can hope for is to dry someone in my own blood :laugh:

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't buy into the rationalization a some women have divulged to me considering all motives come down to money and no amount of professionalism is going to mask that. Sex work in general is already pretty groddy but the whole go-go cage thing to me in a way tops it for the same reasons the frien in the OP stated. Women are not zoo animals and for some fucked up reason it seems more degrading and fucked up then usual strip tease or sexing. I totally wouldn't do that.

[human strike]

Maybe ask them rather than us. Or maybe, ya know, it doesn't matter what we think.