Will be the FARC-EP political party? from Colombia

[Mohr]

Salute

Think FARC-EP as a political party is a challenge for all the Colombian trends. Our history shows so far that the guerrillas have great difficulty in making a convincing speech. Therefore, I think we'll have to spend a few years to understand the draft parliamentary democracy that the guerrillas proposed, and I think a campaign with the guerrillas as a party can produce violence. There is this pitfall. What do you think of Colombia, in this problem today?

I appreciate your answers

[Creative Destruction]

so, they're just going to roll into bourgeois politics, like the Sandanistas did?

[John Nada]

Salute

Think FARC-EP as a political party is a challenge for all the Colombian trends. Our history shows so far that the guerrillas have great difficulty in making a convincing speech. Therefore, I think we'll have to spend a few years to understand the draft parliamentary democracy that the guerrillas proposed, and I think a campaign with the guerrillas as a party can produce violence. There is this pitfall. What do you think of Colombia, in this problem today?

I appreciate your answersI don't see how that would be a problem. Ex-guerrillas are in power in many South American countries. Other guerrilla fighters have ran and won elections in Colombia.

[Luís Henrique]

so, they're just going to roll into bourgeois politics, like the Sandanistas did?

Are they not already at it? Or just because they are a guerrilla army it means they are not "bourgeois"?

Luís Henrique

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I would be interested to know which voting bloc FARC would even get. They've never had a solid connection with urban workers and they've alienated most of what remains of the rural population. Nonetheless it will be entertaining to watch a group move from armed struggle in the jungles to budgetary squabbles in parliament and still try to maintain the facade of a revolutionary orientation. But like others have said, it's happned in a ton of latin american countries, so it's not really out of the ordinary.

[John Nada]

I think a problem is not if they can win some seats(can't go on this long without some support), but if the government, the US and the rightist paramilitary doesn't stop fighting also. There's over 5 million internal refugees in Colombia. Seems to be part of "draining the swamp" and land grabs. If they're just going to get killed and the rightist forces attack farmers in the areas, what's the point on a cease-fire?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Yeah they obviously have some support but they've been on the retreat for a decade which doesn't happen if you have some kind of mass support, so we're talking about a minority. I agree with your point about the paramilitaries, but they tend to attack civilians, not FARC and I doubt the leadership of FARC cares at this point. If they can get amnesty and some government posts while they're at it, who cares about the refugees is probably more in line with their current thinking.

[John Nada]

Yeah they obviously have some support but they've been on the retreat for a decade which doesn't happen if you have some kind of mass support, so we're talking about a minority. I agree with your point about the paramilitaries, but they tend to attack civilians, not FARC and I doubt the leadership of FARC cares at this point. If they can get amnesty and some government posts while they're at it, who cares about the refugees is probably more in line with their current thinking."A revolutionary is to the people what a fish is to water" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-insurgency#Population_control Driving the peasantry out of their land is an intentional strategy to deprive FARC and ELN of their support base. The "anti-drug" crop eradication and massacres are part of this strategy, with direct support from the US. It's way too many people to just be isolated peasants getting accused of support the ELN and FARC.

Their was the "false positive" scandal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%27false_positives%27_scandal) with the military them killing civilians and dropping an AK by their body to claim them as enemy kills. President Santos is thought to be involved in this, as Uribe's Defense Secretary. And he was the "moderate" candidate in the last election. FARC has brought this up in the peace negotiations.

In the past FARC has tried to go legit. It formed the Patriotic Union Party. Didn't do as good as expected in elections but alright for ex-rebels. Unfortunately it's members were targeted for extermination. Hundreds, perhaps thousands were killed.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriotic_Union_%28Colombia%29#Decline_and_Extermi nation . If just running legally is this dangerous, I'm not surprised they just say fuck it and kept fight. At least you'd have a chance.

However, there are ex-rebels from groups like M-19 in government. The capital Bogota had a mayor that was a rebel. The electorate seems to be currently to the right of the revolutionaries' ideologies. The Greens and the Democratic Pole are as far left as it gets now. But maybe with peace more people will chill out and vote for more leftist parties.

Now I'm not the one to support reformism, but fuck after 50 years if the revolution hasn't happened maybe a change in strategy is needed. Going from insurrection, to focoism, to aw fuck it might as well be protracted people's war it's been this long, they're running out of choices.

[Mohr]

They are likely to act as bourgeois politics because they have not formed political bosses. They have fought a peasant war since 1950 but did not have enough influence on the working class.

[Mohr]

One of the commanders of Staff (secretariat) guerrilla was captured by US agents in Ecuador. He was extradited to USA. His name is Simon Trinidad. This major is bourgeois class. It is the only known case. But the other commanders can think like bourgeois because they are intellectuals who have no contact with the working class

[Mohr]

I think it is a mistake to see Colombia as equal to other countries because this country has a powerful right wing. It is very likely that when the guerrillas begin to act in election campaign will be killed those who support it

[Mohr]

Your question is very good. Those who believe that the guerrillas had no power in areas controlled by it can be wrong. If the reactionary forces attack them in those areas, war will be worse than it was.

[KurtFF8]

It's difficult to speculate on this question until we know the outcome of the peace talks, which themselves haven't been going well recently.

If a peace deal is ultimately reached, it's likely that there will be an entry point for the FARC into electoral politics again.

[--Navarro--]

There's over 5 million internal refugees in Colombia.

Nope, that's the historical acumulate over 3 decades, regardless of the actual situation of these people.

And there are no significative paramilitary groups in Colombia.


I think it is a mistake to see Colombia as equal to other countries because this country has a powerful right wing. It is very likely that when the guerrillas begin to act in election campaign will be killed those who support it

What makes you think that?

[Antiochus]

And there are no significative paramilitary groups in Colombia.


0.o I know that there was a relatively recent 'disarm the paras' under Uribe. But even members in his administration admitted that it was really just an amnesty for the paramilitaries and that few have really dismantled.

[John Nada]

Nope, that's the historical acumulate over 3 decades, regardless of the actual situation of these people.Yes, they exist.

And there are no significative paramilitary groups in Colombia. 0.o I know that there was a relatively recent 'disarm the paras' under Uribe. But even members in his administration admitted that it was really just an amnesty for the paramilitaries and that few have really dismantled.AUC is "formally disbanded", with one of the Castanos brothers dead. However, their successors are around, and some of the financiers like Coca-Cola and Chiquita are still at large. Plus the mercenaries like DynCorp.

I think it is a mistake to see Colombia as equal to other countries because this country has a powerful right wing. It is very likely that when the guerrillas begin to act in election campaign will be killed those who support itWhat makes you think that?Perhaps it's because the Colombian Military(with the backing of the US) executed 3000-5000 innocent civilians and pretended they were FARC and ELN. This would've been nearly all of ELN's and 1/3-1/2 of FARC's estimated forces. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/colombian-army-killed-thousands-civilians-human-rights-watch

[--Navarro--]

0.o I know that there was a relatively recent 'disarm the paras' under Uribe. But even members in his administration admitted that it was really just an amnesty for the paramilitaries and that few have really dismantled.

no, the majority of them actually disarmed, and most of the ones that didn't aren't actually "paramilitary" groups. They do bussiness with guerrilla groups on a regular basis, as drug/criminal gangs. And of course, they are involved in a lot of acts of corruption involving officials (it's a criminal gang; there is a lot of government corruption), but, on general terms, they clearly don't work as an army of the state.

the "amnesty" argument is a very simplistic lecture, very proper of simple-minded leftists, who like to appeal to these kind of commonplaces. it wasn't an amnesty but there wasn't total justice; it's a very complex situation.



Perhaps it's because the Colombian Military(with the backing of the US) executed 3000-5000 innocent civilians and pretended they were FARC and ELN. This would've been nearly all of ELN's and 1/3-1/2 of FARC's estimated forces.

here we go again with the idiotic, simplistic, propagandistic arguments. It's not that simple. It's not about bad, evil, murderous rightwing government against "the people". The majority of the Colombian military forces weren't involved in such crimes. A lot of the guilty ones were prosecuted, with greater or lesser success. Others weren't. There are a lot of reasons why such abomination happened in the first place: corruption, the history of violence in the country, education, etc etc. It's foolish to think that such things happen just because of the "right wing".

[--Navarro--]

Yeah, please stop making them. Why is a reactionary supporter of a capitalist military led by a right-wing government that rapes and murders workers, posting outside of OI? And dismissing accusations of widespread murder and rape on part of the Colombian military as "idiotic" and "simplistic", offering simplistic "it's not that simple" or "only a few bad ones". You just don't like the facts when they don't line up with your own beliefs. So long as there's a few arrest and one solider that doesn't hurt anyone, the Colombian military can do no wrong!

En este comentario se ejemplifican todas las falacias lógicas más comunes, es increíble. Yo sabía que los mamertos son personas obtusas, dogmáticas, deshonestas intelectualmente, obnubiladas por su fanatismo, mentirosas, pero esto es increíble.

En fin, creo que lo que dije y lo que usted quiere o cree haber leído, en su inmensa estupidez mamerta, se distinguen claramente, para cualquier persona con un ápice de honestidad intelectual.

[--Navarro--]

Yes, they exist.

"they exist" nice try, you idiot :rolleyes:. the point is that you showed that you know nothing about the subject and the actual situation of these people.


AUC is "formally disbanded", with one of the Castanos brothers dead.

ALL of the Castaños brothers are dead, you dimwit. Get your facts straight.



However, their successors are around, and some of the financiers like Coca-Cola and Chiquita are still at large. Plus the mercenaries like DynCorp.Perhaps it's because the Colombian Military(with the backing of the US) executed 3000-5000 innocent civilians and pretended they were FARC and ELN. This would've been nearly all of ELN's and 1/3-1/2 of FARC's estimated forces. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/24/colombian-army-killed-thousands-civilians-human-rights-watch

Chiquita Brands doesn't operate in Colombia anymore since quite a few time ago :rolleyes:

[John Nada]

Navarro, why do you bump a thread one and a half months later just to talk shit? I've deleted the offending post, which was unfair to you, but I don't like being called stupid. Quit trying to be a smartass. You're not saying anything smart, just half-truths and shit-talking.

Colombia has among the largest amount of displaced people, fact, regardless of it spread out over decades. AUC is demobilized, but there's other paramilitary groups like Los Urabenos. Vincente Castano is missing and likely dead, but AFAIK not 100% confirmed. And Chiquita last I checked still sells fruit at the grocery store, even if it's not operating in Colombia anymore.

To actually get to something relevant, the peace talks seem like its going along: http://www.telesurtv.net/english/news/Colombia-Will-Say-Goodbye-Forever-to-Armed-Conflict-in-2016-20150929-0026.html

[--Navarro--]

Navarro, why do you bump a thread one and a half months later just to talk shit?


because who cares



Colombia has among the largest amount of displaced people, fact, regardless of it spread out over decades.


Yes I actually worked for these people.


AUC is demobilized, but there's other paramilitary groups like Los Urabenos.

on which sense is Los Urabeños a paramilitary group? they are just a drug cartel who do bussiness with both Farc and ELN.



Vincente Castano is missing and likely dead, but AFAIK not 100% confirmed.

nope, Fiscalía identified the body remains of Vicente (not "Vincente") Castaño 3 years ago.



And Chiquita last I checked still sells fruit at the grocery store, even if it's not operating in Colombia anymore.

so what? you were saying that they still finance paramilitary groups, which only show your total ignorance on the country. I'm pretty sure you can't even locate Colombia on a map, like most of the so concerned leftists about the country here.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I won't speak to the substance of the debate going on here, but I find it odd (if not a little amusing) that Navarro just rolls by the forum once every few months to bump and troll Juan Moreno in this thread.

[John Nada]

--Navarro-- don't waste your time with half-assed post. It's fucking annoying that if Colombia comes up in the news, you'll just troll users with "You don't know! You're not in Colombia! Whops, misspelled it Columbia! LOL, pinche pendejo! Norteamericanos!" No real information but nitpicking on how they can't speak of the FARC or ELN because "You're not Colombian!" or "How do you Know?" Yet you should damn well know that even sympathizing with the FARC and ELN (https://www.vice.com/read/how-the-fbi-goes-after-activists), particularly if she/he is actually in Colombia, is insecure. Yet it almost seems like you're trying to bait that out of people. If you're genuinely want a discussion, I'd suggest going about it another way.

Although if you're really helping displaced people, that's good.
because who caresBesides the people directly involved, I sure other posters(including me) would like post about the peace process if it didn't mean you turning up simply to taunt their supposed lack of knowledge, yet barely contributing yourself.
Yes I actually worked for these people.That's good. I hope you do good work.
on which sense is Los Urabeños a paramilitary group? they are just a drug cartel who do bussiness with both Farc and ELN.Paramilitary: of or relating to a group that is not an official army but that operates and is organized like an army. AUC was basically a united front of gangs in the first place.
nope, Fiscalía identified the body remains of Vicente (not "Vincente") Castaño 3 years ago.Oh shit, one fucking letter:o. If the Attorney General Office of Colombia is correct, good.
so what? you were saying that they still finance paramilitary groups, which only show your total ignorance on the country. I'm pretty sure you can't even locate Colombia on a map, like most of the so concerned leftists about the country here.Why does this even fucking matter? Your "appeal to authority" is supposedly living in Colombia. Which means shit to me. Trying to knock down other users, like it's going to make you look smarter, doesn't. A bunch of fucking posturing, and little substance.

I ask that you please do not make further contact me on this board. Nothing productive will come about it.
I won't speak to the substance of the debate going on here, but I find it odd (if not a little amusing) that Navarro just rolls by the forum once every few months to bump and troll Juan Moreno in this thread.Even while I was lurking she/he seems to rear his/her head only to talk shit about "LOL dumb leftists who dare saying anything remotely good or not bad about guerrillas and the left in South America!", asks what makes them an expert(because by virtue of living in US makes one an expert on the US over foreigner:rolleyes: ) and admits they're "neither left nor right". I'd like an honest discussion on the Colombian Conflict, particularly the developments in the peace process, but I don't think there's one to be had with --Navarro--.

[Luís Henrique]

so, they're just going to roll into bourgeois politics, like the Sandanistas did?

Do you think that they are not already into bourgeois politics?

Luís Henrique