"Reactionary language"

[Comrade Jacob]

Why are so many leftists in the 1st world so grumpy about people using words than actual issues? Seems sad af

[Comrade Jacob]

The words in most context is nasty but ffs it's a word.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Did you get called out for saying something racist? Thats normally the event that precedes these kinds of threads

[Comrade Jacob]

Did you get called out for saying something racist? Thats normally the event that precedes these kinds of threads

No. I'm just tired of social justice warriors

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Those are liberals. In any case it's possible to be upset when people use reactionary language and also be upset about 'actual issues' since one tends to reinforce the other.

[Comrade Jacob]

Those are liberals. In any case it's possible to be upset when people use reactionary language and also be upset about 'actual issues' since one tends to reinforce the other.

Like I said I hate reactionary language when used maliciously. But people can't even quote or be ironic without people crying.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So you did get called out for something? A lot of people use irony as a guise for saying ugly shit they really believe but know is not socially acceptable. When someone calls me nigger you know, ironically, it doesn't actually feel any different from when anyone else says it.

[Comrade Jacob]

Words like "tranny" and "faggot" are horrible but we shouldn't isolate people who use it unless they are being fascistic

[Sinister Intents]

Like I said I hate reactionary language when used maliciously. But people can't even quote or be ironic without people crying.

Mmmm, calling someone a *****, a retard, a tranny, and so on conveys prejudice, and this prejudices are usually produced by society itself. Sexism, racism, and so on are tied to the mode of production and of ruling class ideas.

[Comrade Jacob]

So you did get called out for something? A lot of people use irony as a guise for saying ugly shit they really believe but know is not socially acceptable. When someone calls me nigger you know, ironically, it doesn't actually feel any different from when anyone else says it.

No I didn't. I say "Nigga" a lot after most sentences in real life just as a bad habit

[Sinister Intents]

No I didn't. I say "Nigga" a lot after most sentences in real life just as a bad habit

Yah, that might get you called out. Some people refer to me as their "nigga." I'll blunt and just say it pisses me off, and I used to call people out and try to educate them it usually backfires, but occasionally some people actually Listen and take heed of what language can convey. Language can and often is used to produce and reproduce structural prejudice.

[Comrade Jacob]

For example a friend uses the words tranny and fag. He is in no way a transphobe or a homophobe. Although those words make me cringe

[Redistribute the Rep]

Technically, using any given offensive word doesn't automatically mean someones chauvinistic.

In reality however probably 9 times out of 10 it's a bigoted fuck who's saying it

[Sinister Intents]

For example a friend uses the words tranny and fag. He is in no way a transphobe or a homophobe. Although those words make me cringe

Certainly he is at least somewhat transphobic and homophobic, it's the continuation of prejudice. Marketers also use specific language to ensure their products, services, and ideas are sold. Prejudice is sold through media, through word-of-mouth, the internet, and other sources. These social ills are very profitable to capitalists and they ensure these ideas are spread I the markets and spread at home. It's profitable to tell women they're ugly so you can sell them products. Macho tough guy shit is profitable and homophobia is tied into sexism because we're taught in society that femininity is bad and masculinity is great.

[consuming negativity]

i'm getting tired of sexism, it's all over the left too. the mainstream line really did a good job co-opting feminism and turning it into a caricature of nothing. so much fucking useless bullshit nihilism or whatever else used to justify it, too. if you talk like this it makes you look ignorant as fuck to anyone who is intelligent.

[Sinister Intents]

i'm getting tired of sexism, it's all over the left too. the mainstream line really did a good job co-opting feminism and turning it into a caricature of nothing. so much fucking useless bullshit nihilism or whatever else used to justify it, too. if you talk like this it makes you look ignorant as fuck to anyone who is intelligent.

Sex sells, human bodies are commodified and women experience the treatment as if they're property to be taken and defended, We're all dehumanized under the bourgeois dictatorship. The bourgeoisie, the most conscious class, and convinced of their rule, and that it is just. Have ensured they attack us at our very being. It's profitable to shame, to hate, it's profitable to own and we're forced to prostitute ourselves to a system that fucks us from our youth and ensures the majority compete and work for the minority of others. Humans are just another piece of capital in the hands of the bourgeoisie. The nature of capitalism is unbridled and permanent expansion into every crack and crevice. Capitalism is the destroyer and degradation of culture worldwide. It spreads around and keeps finding new markets and agitates the old ones. The prejudices and bigotry are an awful product of the system and it is necessary to attack these prejudices and to expose the system for what it is: Calculated parasitism.

[BIXX]

Words like "tranny" and "faggot" are horrible but we shouldn't isolate people who use it unless they are being fascistic
Actually fuck you.

[Sinister Intents]

Actually fuck you.

As much as I hate those words: Education trumps alienation. Some may deserve alienation, but the goal should be education and not attacks like: "Actually fuck you."

[Comrade Jacob]

Actually fuck you.

What, cos I don't think isolating people who don't think they are being offensive is a good thing?
I'll fucking noscope you, get rekt

[BIXX]

As much as I hate those words: Education trumps alienation. Some may deserve alienation, but the goal should be education and not attacks like: "Actually fuck you."
Bullshit. Education changes fuck all. There's a reason we bash back you pathetic jargon wielding attention seeker.

I'm so fucking tired of that line about education. Its weak.

[Sinister Intents]

Bullshit. Education changes fuck all. There's a reason we bash back you pathetic jargon wielding attention seeker.

I'm so fucking tired of that line about education. Its weak.

Why not a myriad of tactics. Certainly violence is necessary is cases, but violence is starkly alienating and can backfire very easily. Alternative methods exist, but it should always be; educate, agitate, organize. It's necessary to keep agitating. If we attack people blatantly we create schisms. We must show people why we need an intersectional revolution, a proletarian mass movement to destroy the system and transfer capital and governance to the people, i.e. Power To the People!

[John Nada]

Is this IRL or the internet? Online you can't see a person, and they might not know the context. If you assume that they "get it", you make an ass(out of yo)u(and)me.:)

Why use oppressive language in the first place? Shouldn't a leftist be trying to win over oppressed peoples? Sometimes little things have propaganda value. It's possible to talk without being an asshole. Just some basic manners and discipline.

[BIXX]

Why not a myriad of tactics. Certainly violence is necessary is cases, but violence is starkly alienating and can backfire very easily. Alternative methods exist, but it should always be; educate, agitate, organize. It's necessary to keep agitating. If we attack people blatantly we create schisms. We must show people why we need an intersectional revolution, a proletarian mass movement to destroy the system and transfer capital and governance to the people, i.e. Power To the People!

Lol, jargon wielding attention seeker.

Seriously do you even have your own thoughts?

I'd really be interested in hearing how you see life after the "revolution". I am willing to bet it doesn't change much from capitalism, and will be just as socially violent and alienating as capitalism.

[Atsumari]

Words like "tranny" and "faggot" are horrible but we shouldn't isolate people who use it unless they are being fascistic
How the hell do you be "fascistic" with those two words?
In regards to "faggot," I am not one to quickly call the person using that word homophobic since many of my friends in high school who used that word for every little thing were certainly not homophobic and were some of the first people to be there for me when I came out of the closet. And although they were certainly not homophobic, I very much disliked the way they justified their immature behavior as we got older by saying "Nigga was taken back, queer was taken back, why not faggot?" and trying to explain to them that the first two are often used positively and faggot is used as a insult would not get through their skulls.
Tranny on the other hand cannot be justified in any way at all, maybe for some kinky BDSM play but that's it really.

[RedMaterialist]

For example a friend uses the words tranny and fag. He is in no way a transphobe or a homophobe. Although those words make me cringe

Hmmm... Suppose your friend says, "send the Jews to the gas chambers. Get the job done this time."

[G4b3n]

Why do so many Maoists in the first world think themselves high and mighty enough to criticize first world leftists as if they are are a seperate entity?
Also, did you just use the term "social justice warrior" as if it wasn't a slur invented by fascists to delegitmize leftist movements? Why are you even a leftist? Do you just like looking at pictures of Mao and Stalin?

[Sinister Intents]

Lol, jargon wielding attention seeker.

Seriously do you even have your own thoughts?

I'd really be interested in hearing how you see life after the "revolution". I am willing to bet it doesn't change much from capitalism, and will be just as socially violent and alienating as capitalism.

So I'm an attention seeker? Honestly, fuck you anarkiddo. You didn't even make an argument, you just made an immature attack like a dumbass.

I do in fact have my own thoughts and I'm constantly studying. Also the proletarian transitional state won't be communist, nor socialist. I'm expounding upon the fact that the revolution will need to be comprised of an educated, radical, mass movement. There needs to be a class conscious majority to seize power and put it on the hands of everyone. But you'll just keep blowing cigarette smoke at me like an edgy teen. There's really no talking to you. I fucking hate edgy, aggro kids.

[#FF0000]

For example a friend uses the words tranny and fag. He is in no way a transphobe or a homophobe. Although those words make me cringe

well if they aren't a transphobe or a homophobe why do they act like it? sure, you "know" they aren't a bigot but could you blame someone who overheard them talking like that for thinking they were?

Obviously people aren't perfect and some people just don't know -- there's a difference between ideological bigots and people who might just be ignorant -- but at the same time I'd say it's pretty justifiable to take issue with someone using slurs in any case.

[BIXX]

So I'm an attention seeker? Honestly, fuck you anarkiddo. You didn't even make an argument, you just made an immature attack like a dumbass.

I do in fact have my own thoughts and I'm constantly studying. Also the proletarian transitional state won't be communist, nor socialist. I'm expounding upon the fact that the revolution will need to be comprised of an educated, radical, mass movement. There needs to be a class conscious majority to seize power and put it on the hands of everyone. But you'll just keep blowing cigarette smoke at me like an edgy teen. There's really no talking to you. I fucking hate edgy, aggro kids.

I don't bother presenting an argument anymore because no one ever has an adequate answer to the questions/arguments put forward, and least of all could you adequately respond.

I'm sure that you feel comfortable trying to "educate" bigots on issues like transphobia because when it doesn't work it gives you something to talk about how disempowered you feel. Or if it does work its "raising awareness" (which I also contest that it works in most cases where it seems to on the surface). But I like to feel the power that comes from making them scared when they dare to call me a fag.

Furthermore you just start uttering these memetic sentences that you gotta know to gain acceptance with this or that group in every damn thread you're in. That's why I treat your posts like garbage, because frankly, they are. For example, there was no need in this post to start rambling about capital other than to show how well you fit in so that leftists.


Why not a myriad of tactics. Certainly violence is necessary is cases, but violence is starkly alienating and can backfire very easily. Alternative methods exist, but it should always be; educate, agitate, organize. It's necessary to keep agitating. If we attack people blatantly we create schisms. We must show people why we need an intersectional revolution, a proletarian mass movement to destroy the system and transfer capital and governance to the people, i.e. Power To the People!

Then in your most recent post you go on about


the proletarian transitional state
When it was irrelevant to the conversation.

Fight, cause pain, alienate people who cause us pain for not being a perfect tool of capital. Make them so afraid to be near us that they don't have any room to venture outside.

[#FF0000]

obvs education's gotta work to some extent since you weren't born knowing what you know, were you?

[John Nada]

Why do so many Maoists in the first world think themselves high and mighty enough to criticize first world leftists as if they are are a seperate entity?
To hear incorrect views without rebutting them and even to hear counter-revolutionary remarks without reporting them, but instead to take them calmly as if nothing had happened. This is a sixth type.Combat Liberalism! (https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm) What a fucking first-worlder Mao Zedong was! :lol:

[Armchair Partisan]

Bullshit. Education changes fuck all. There's a reason we bash back you pathetic jargon wielding attention seeker.

I'm so fucking tired of that line about education. Its weak.

If we just bash back at everyone who has stupid reactionary ideas, we will lose pretty quickly - after all, we're pretty heavily outnumbered at the moment. First we educate people, then once the revolutionary movement is big enough, we can start caring less for bigots and alienating them more. This is just a basic strategic consideration.


No. I'm just tired of social justice
warriors

The term "social justice warrior" is the stupidest shit ever, I hate it even more than "faggot" and the like. I mean, it kind of implies that the user is in favor of social injustice, doesn't it? What exactly is the insult supposed to be - someone fights for social justice, therefore... it's bad? Yeah, I think I know where the users of the term are coming from.

[motion denied]

Outside of university clubs and subcultural niches people sometimes say fucked up shit. Of course this is not an excuse to go all "lolol fags", but hey not looking so good on your high horse.

As people said, maybe it's advisable to not be mean to other people, and there's nothing "communistic" (lmao) about it either. I mean, common courtesy...

[G4b3n]

Combat Liberalism! (https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm) What a fucking first-worlder Mao Zedong was! :lol:

I believe Mao wrote this in the context of combating Japanese and western imperialism, not on a computer in a first world post coldwar imperialist country.

If you didn't notice, times have changed and so has the struggle, Mao is not relevant in the first world. I would urge you to make the argument on how it is.

[Sinister Intents]

I don't bother presenting an argument anymore because no one ever has an adequate answer to the questions/arguments put forward, and least of all could you adequately respond.

I'm sure that you feel comfortable trying to "educate" bigots on issues like transphobia because when it doesn't work it gives you something to talk about how disempowered you feel. Or if it does work its "raising awareness" (which I also contest that it works in most cases where it seems to on the surface). But I like to feel the power that comes from making them scared when they dare to call me a fag.

Furthermore you just start uttering these memetic sentences that you gotta know to gain acceptance with this or that group in every damn thread you're in. That's why I treat your posts like garbage, because frankly, they are. For example, there was no need in this post to start rambling about capital other than to show how well you fit in so that leftists.



Then in your most recent post you go on about


When it was irrelevant to the conversation.

Fight, cause pain, alienate people who cause us pain for not being a perfect tool of capital. Make them so afraid to be near us that they don't have any room to venture outside.

Then you're merely a part of the problem and should distance yourself from anarchism because it's apparent you're not one. You're essentially advocating for creating further schisms and divides, which means you'll be creating a hierarchy between you and people you deem too stupid to understand. Take your petit bourgeois ideology, your contradictory to anarchism divisiveness, and your anti-communism and get off of a Revolutionary Left forum.

Good luck with dividing the working class and maintaining antagonisms, which is contradictory to creating unity within the working class.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I believe Mao wrote this in the context of combating Japanese and western imperialism, not on a computer in a first world post coldwar imperialist country.

If you didn't notice, times have changed and so has the struggle, Mao is not relevant in the first world. I would urge you to make the argument on how it is.

I'm pretty sure he was joking. Combat Liberalism is addressing a time period where Chinese communist fighting units were merging with non-communist fighting units to take on the Japanese and Mao wanted to maintain a strict ideological separation between the two groups.

[BIXX]

Then you're merely a part of the problem and should distance yourself from anarchism because it's apparent you're not one. You're essentially advocating for creating further schisms and divides, which means you'll be creating a hierarchy between you and people you deem too stupid to understand. Take your petit bourgeois ideology, your contradictory to anarchism divisiveness, and your anti-communism and get off of a Revolutionary Left forum.

Good luck with dividing the working class and maintaining antagonisms, which is contradictory to creating unity within the working class.

Lol, calling someone petite bourgeois is pretty rich, coming from you.

I have said multiple times I'm not an anarchist. And no, what I'm arguing isn't about schism and divides, its about attacking those who attack me. Working class unity is a fucking joke anyway.

Tell me what you see communism as. Once again, I bet it doesn't really differ from capitalism.

[Armchair Partisan]

Good luck with dividing the working class and maintaining antagonisms, which is contradictory to creating unity within the working class.

There is already unity within the working class - unity in support of capitalism. We need to break that unity and create antagonisms in order to move forward. Unity isn't worth much if you're united in support of a shitty goal.

[Guardia Rossa]

There is already unity within the working class - unity in support of capitalism. We need to break that unity and create antagonisms in order to move forward. Unity isn't worth much if you're united in support of a shitty goal.

We are doing a very good job in that by breaking the only anti-capitalist ideologies to pieces.

Pan-Anarchism, Pan-Marxism and Pan-Left Libertarianism is the thing.

[Guardia Rossa]

Lol, calling someone petite bourgeois is pretty rich, coming from you.

Your ideology fits kinda well in the petit-bourgeois line, don't cry and spit fallacies. And yes, you are divisionist and childish. Please refrain from participating in a Revolutionary >LEFT< forum if you are not leftist.

[Armchair Partisan]

Personally, what I don't get is why this kind of rampant flaming is allowed. Nobody is any better off for it in the end. You can attack someone else's arguments without attacking the person, you know.


We are doing a very good job in that by breaking the only anti-capitalist ideologies to pieces.

Pan-Anarchism, Pan-Marxism and Pan-Left Libertarianism is the thing.

I tend to agree in principle, but I do think there are some elements which may pose as Marxists but should still be excluded from the revolutionary movement (such as the socially conservative, KPRF-cheerleading wing of the Stalinists) - though it's kind of a slippery slope once you start locking people out, isn't it?

[BIXX]

Your ideology fits kinda well in the petit-bourgeois line, don't cry and spit fallacies. And yes, you are divisionist and childish. Please refrain from participating in a Revolutionary >LEFT< forum if you are not leftist.
Take it up with the mods. If they restrict me I'll leave but until then I will be here cause unfortunately there isn't much space for me on the web and I have absolutely no idea how to maintain a website.

I am not for unity as a program, no. I think that is one of the most effective ways for us to continue capitalist existence whilst calling it communism.

[BIXX]

We are doing a very good job in that by breaking the only anti-capitalist ideologies to pieces.

Pan-Anarchism, Pan-Marxism and Pan-Left Libertarianism is the thing.



Your ideology fits kinda well in the petit-bourgeois line, don't cry and spit fallacies. And yes, you are divisionist and childish. Please refrain from participating in a Revolutionary >LEFT< forum if you are not leftist.

Also I just want to point out that you go from one post saying that we need to unite anticapitalist ideologies and in the next you're telling an anticapitalist to gtfo. Tell me, do you just flounder from one sentence to the next without paying attention to what they mean?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Language policing hasn't done anyone any good, but at the same time we shouldn't pretend that people who use terms like "fag" aren't overwhelmingly likely to be homophobic etc.


Why do so many Maoists in the first world think themselves high and mighty enough to criticize first world leftists as if they are are a seperate entity?

The worst part is that the worst parts of Internet "leftism" take after the academic Maoism of the sixties and seventies, much of it from "the Third World". No Sakurai, no otherkin.


Also, did you just use the term "social justice warrior" as if it wasn't a slur invented by fascists to delegitmize leftist movements? Why are you even a leftist? Do you just like looking at pictures of Mao and Stalin?

No, that's not true at all, it was invented by people who like to laugh at self-important Internet liberals, which I think is a good, healthy activity. Otherkin, transethnics and people who bang on about their feels aren't confused socialists, they're trolls or liberals off the rails.

[Armchair Partisan]

No, that's not true at all, it was invented by people who like to laugh at self-important Internet liberals, which I think is a good, healthy activity. Otherkin, transethnics and people who bang on about their feels aren't confused socialists, they're trolls or liberals off the rails.

These are also not the targets of the term "social justice warrior". As the words themselves imply, the term is used to slur anyone who combats some perceived form of bigotry - feminists, LGBT activists and the like. That some liberal feminists do have some pretty stupid ideas from time to time is irrelevant to this.

[Rafiq]

The point is to allow for an ideological language to flourish wherein the predispositions to using the language, which we all accept reinforces certain conditions of oppression, simply do not exist. In other words, if you have to actually police yourself on what words you use, and what words you don't use spontaneously, the rot is much deeper than mere immediate ignorance of the connotations of your words.

Ultimately, merely conceiving such 'discriminatory' language almost pragmatically, in terms of what effects it will have upon others is not enough. One must approximate what the implications of such words are for the tongue which wrought them, or more importantly, why one uses them in the first place even if they were to have no effect on your surroundings, even if, for example, calling a black person a nigger or a homosexual a faggot wouldn't be demeaning to them personally. The spontaneous predispositions even to using the word 'faggot', for example, are profoundly ideological. One shouldn't buy the idea that it simply stems from mimicking others' use of it that can be used to describe something which is entirely unrelated to homosexuality - that's simply not how language works. The word 'faggot' clearly has real connotations, even if they don't directly refer to homosexuals - it's clear that it entails, you know, repressed femininity and whatever. So the question becomes not how you self-limit your speech, but what ideological predispositions you have that lead you to it, what assumptions about the world you still subconsciously possess, and why. Sometimes even recognizing this, with no intent on changing it, is quite enough.

[consuming negativity]

The point is to allow for an ideological language to flourish wherein the predispositions to using the language, which we all accept reinforces certain conditions of oppression, simply do not exist. In other words, if you have to actually police yourself on what words you use, and what words you don't use spontaneously, the rot is much deeper than mere immediate ignorance of the connotations of your words.

Ultimately, merely conceiving such 'discriminatory' language almost pragmatically, in terms of what effects it will have upon others is not enough. One must approximate what the implications of such words are for the tongue which wrought them, or more importantly, why one uses them in the first place even if they were to have no effect on your surroundings, even if, for example, calling a black person a nigger or a homosexual a faggot wouldn't be demeaning to them personally. The spontaneous predispositions even to using the word 'faggot', for example, are profoundly ideological. One shouldn't buy the idea that it simply stems from mimicking others' use of it that can be used to describe something which is entirely unrelated to homosexuality - that's simply not how language works. The word 'faggot' clearly has real connotations, even if they don't directly refer to homosexuals - it's clear that it entails, you know, repressed femininity and whatever. So the question becomes not how you self-limit your speech, but what ideological predispositions you have that lead you to it, what assumptions about the world you still subconsciously possess, and why. Sometimes even recognizing this, with no intent on changing it, is quite enough.

i don't know how anyone could recognize that they subconsciously believe such things and not want to change those reflections, unless they just cared so much about fitting in that they'd rather sell themselves out. but i don't know how a person unwilling to even do just that little bit of work on themselves could be a person willing to undertake a real social revolution. it's really not that difficult. maybe it just takes time.

but honestly i can say that i don't want to say those words and i'm not sure why anyone would, after coming to understand them in a full context.

[Quail]

Any more personal attacks in this thread and the users responsible will receive an infraction.

I feel like I've explained this so many times, but I don't understand why someone who isn't a complete arsehole would knowingly use slurs in casual conversation. It really isn't hard to find other words to fill the gaps, and in some cases the fact you're using a slur means that you should just shut your fucking mouth instead.

[John Nada]

I believe Mao wrote this in the context of combating Japanese and western imperialism, not on a computer in a first world post coldwar imperialist country.

If you didn't notice, times have changed and so has the struggle, Mao is not relevant in the first world. I would urge you to make the argument on how it is.Just to be clear I wasn't talking about you. It's a joke. Mao said to rebut incorrect views, and report counterrevolutionary remarks. There's a report icon in the right corner of the posts for counterrevolutionary remarks. It's very much relevant to a first-worlder on this message board.