Do you vote in bourgeois elections?

[G4b3n]

Do you vote in bourgeois elections? Do subtle differences in bourgeois parties actually affect anything? Is abstaining from voting an act of resistance in itself? Vote in the poll.

[Creative Destruction]

I vote on some local referendums, then write-in Looney Tunes or Sesame Street characters in the other races. Sometimes I'll vote for a Green, but otherwise, nah.

[Cliff Paul]

I refuse to vote about how I don't vote

[hexaune]

Absolutely no point where I live, I'm in a safe labour seat so under FPTP even if I wanted to vote it would make no difference.

[BIXX]

I don't vote.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I think there are already plenty of threads about this, but oh well...

No. Disengagement from legitimization of current pseudo-"democratic" structures is one step closer to engagement in building actually democratic alternative structures. "Strategic voting" is especially counterproductive. Voting for the "least worst" option is just a slippery slope when the "least worst" becomes progressively worse, anyway.

In short, specific bourgeois parties and the bourgeoisie in general should not be challenged on their own terms.

[G4b3n]

I know there are past threads. But they are dated and it is time for an update. Especially since national elections are coming in Britain, and in the U.S as well.

I will not vote for parties or people in bourgeois elections, for all of the obvious reasons expounded upon by both Anarchists and Marxists. But I might put these qualms aside to support certain referendums that prevent things from becoming shittier than they already are.

#Rosa Luxemburg 2016

[Tim Cornelis]

Some times.
Didn't vote in national elections;
Voted in municipal elections for most left party (didn't win a seat);
Didn't vote in European elections;
Didn't vote in provincial elections;
Didn't vote in water management elections (yes, those are real).

Might vote for Socialist Party in the future, because, why not?

[#FF0000]

I voted in the election for my state's governor out of spite. I didn't care who won I just wanted Tom Corbett to suffer.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

When you live in the ass-end of the South like me, your options are pretty limited.

So yes, I do vote. Usually only on 'election day' though. And if there is no socialist candidate on the ticket, I just put 'None of the Above'.

[RedWorker]

I will not vote for parties or people in bourgeois elections, for all of the obvious reasons expounded upon by both Anarchists and Marxists. But I might put these qualms aside to support certain referendums that prevent things from becoming shittier than they already are.

Voting for a certain item in a referendum is the same as voting for a party and then a party voting in favor of that. The difference is direct vs. indirect, as well as giving the party power to decide on all items by itself.

[RedWorker]

If voting for any option changes nothing then not voting changes nothing as well. Except the obvious fact that voting does change something. Bourgeois system will not fall down from people avoiding voting - so what's the point?

[Cliff Paul]

If Joe Biden runs for president I'll actually bother to register to vote and that shit just because the onion articles on him are hilarious

[#FF0000]

to hell with proletarian internationalism i'd die on a battlefield for joe biden if it meant my children lived in a world w/ more pictures of him with a photoshopped rat-tail

[Ele'ill]

nope

[MarxistWorld]

You know in this world, most people do not do things by the book. I used to be a member of a gym, where people exercised and dieted from monday to friday and then ate a lot of fattening junk foods on weekends. And they complained about why they couldn't lose weight. And the same is true with politics. According to Karl Marx, there are no real changes without assasinations, without blood, without violence and without armed class-wars. And since we must follow things by the book, I think it is a wiser idea for leftists to not waste any energies in voting and instead wait for a revolutionary objective situation and an armed rebellion




Do you vote in bourgeois elections? Do subtle differences in bourgeois parties actually affect anything? Is abstaining from voting an act of resistance in itself? Vote in the poll.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

If I vote, it's only for referendums if I feel they're worthy of voting on, which isn't often. The last two I voted on were to legalize same-sex marriage and recreational cannabis, which both passed here in Washington State in 2012.

[Futility Personified]

Reluctantly, under no illusions about the nature of bourgeois democracy and the power of the market over the inter-relations between nation states.

The struggle is far greater than voting, but when you are unable to participate in any struggles at present, the ballot box is where you are relegated.

[motion denied]

Since I don't expect anything from the State and its officials, I'll vote for the lesser evil. If I'm going to get screwed anyway...

[The Idler]

I vote for political parties representing the interests of the working-class in state elections where the working-class constitute the majority of the franchise.

[Bala Perdida]

Hell no! I don't vote! It's a scam and that's no joke!

[Art Vandelay]

I don't vote. In Canada we essentially got the torries, the liberals, the ndp, and the greens, none of whom are worthy of critical support. Even if there was a self declared radical running in an election here, I wouldn't cast a ballot for them. The Leninist argument for participating in bourgeois elections is to use them as a platform for propaganda, not to take over the task of managing the affairs of the bourgeois state.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I have never voted and I am also not allowed to vote, and additionally can't be run for public office. But sure as fuck pay taxes despite literally no representation or say. Hooray America.

[Guardia Rossa]

Why? So we can elect socialists and they become centrists?

Brazil once HAD a strong socialist front. The elected socialists ruined it.

Now we are back to 1920's. Worse then that. We don't even have a ANL

[The Intransigent Faction]

I don't vote. In Canada we essentially got the torries, the liberals, the ndp, and the greens, none of whom are worthy of critical support. Even if there was a self declared radical running in an election here, I wouldn't cast a ballot for them. The Leninist argument for participating in bourgeois elections is to use them as a platform for propaganda, not to take over the task of managing the affairs of the bourgeois state.

Thanks, you said what I wanted to say.
Of course, even if the CPC or CPCML were worth voting for, we also have the "first-past-the-post" system, so they could get a significantly larger percentage of the vote than they already do and still have absolutely no representation in parliament whatsoever.
The other major contender for Prime Minister at this point is a man who supported such things as mandatory minimums for marijuana possession, sending troops to Iraq, and Bill C-51 which would drastically expand the powers of CSIS.

[Blake's Baby]

I vote for political parties representing the interests of the working-class in state elections where the working-class constitute the majority of the franchise.

A luxury not afforded to the majority of the planet, so hardly a strategy that can be generalised.

[mushroompizza]

I can't vote because people under the age of 18 are inferior and only deserve serfdom.

[BIXX]

I can't vote because people under the age of 18 are inferior and only deserve serfdom.
Oh thank god you can't vote.

Sorry. I had to.

[Atsumari]

I generally do not vote, but the act of voting does not strengthen or weaken a liberal democracy. Even if this Russel Brand populism of anti-politics, liberal democratic politics will still exist even if voter turnout is 5 percent. Where the issue of strengthening the bourgeois system comes into question is if you are actively trying to get people out to vote, building a political party specifically for the system, and using elections as the biggest way of bringing about change.

[Црвена]

I can't vote because people under the age of 18 are inferior and only deserve serfdom.

^^

Even if I could vote, though, I wouldn't. It's pointless. I don't want a "nicer" form of capitalism, and since these "nicer" forms usually involve lots of spending, we end up getting austerity to pay for it in the next government, which takes us back to square one.

[John Nada]

In the US, the electoral districts and primaries are rigged so much you might as well not bother. I just vote on propositions, or maybe the Green Party if their candidate is far enough left as protest. No on reactionary bullshit(cuts on eduction, banning Same-sex marriage, cuts on healthcare, asinine rightist bullshit, ect.) and Yes on progressive shit(more funding for eduction, legalizing Same-sex marriage, legalize cannabis).

Fuck just leave the ballot blank or write in Mao Zedong and Vladimir Lenin, and vote Yes on legalizing drugs. I don't want to spend as much money and relax in peace.

[Armchair Partisan]

I didn't vote last time because the voting station was too far away (I moved in to the city recently but my permanent place of residency was still in the much smaller town I lived in during my early youth). Then again, even if it was like 5 minutes away, there is no party here that can present even a modestly social-democratic programme - choose between neoliberals and Putinist nationalists, sucker! Either way, voting or not voting, I don't think it matters too much either way. Social democrats can kill the revolution just as easily as right-wing autocrats when push comes to shove.

[Comrade Jacob]

I'm lazy af. I didn't even vote in the Scottish referendum

[Diirez]

I'd rather have someone on the left as president than the whackjobs that are on the right right now. They're all bad but I would rather have a Martin O'Malley over a Mike Huckabee who talked something about how gay marriage will leader to an ISIS takeover of America. *sigh*

[Mr. Piccolo]

Yes, especially in local and state elections, which I often find to be more important and impactful than national elections. Local elections can be interesting because I sometimes personally know the candidates and if I really hate or like a certain candidate I might get involved.

That being said, I no longer become angry on election night or get into partisan political arguments anymore. I know bourgeois elections can't really bring about significant changes barring some very unusual circumstances.

[The Disillusionist]

I vote every chance I get, almost always for a third party. If nothing else, it's fun, and it's something to talk to people about. I think the pessimistic perspective about voting is kinda funny because it's essentially protesting against something ineffectual by being even more ineffectual.:laugh:

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

So the solution is to be ineffectual? What are you even talking about?

[Alet]

As a communist my main interest is the welfare of the working class. I think it is important to improve the workers' fighting conditions and circumstances, so I vote for parties representing the working class. If that does not help, too bad, but I agree with RedWorker:

If voting for any option changes nothing then not voting changes nothing as well.

[Antiochus]

I voted for Romney and support his crusade against the socialist anti-christ Obama.

Elections are pretty useless,,,, unless there is a specific issue, such as austerity that may or may not be alleviated. Other than that I don't vote.

[Red Star Rising]

If spoiling ballot papers counts, yeah. And sometimes just so I feel like I have the right to complain.

[Creative Destruction]

If spoiling ballot papers counts, yeah. And sometimes just so I feel like I have the right to complain.

You have a right to complain anyway...

[Red Star Rising]

You have a right to complain anyway...

Not according to voters.

[JiangQing]

I think the answer is obvious:

Don't vote!
Elections no! People's War yes!




Violent revolution is the universal principle of proletarian revolution. A Marxist-Leninist party must adhere to this universal principle and apply it to the concrete practice of its own country. Historical experience showsthat the seizure of political power by the proletariat and the oppressed people of a country and the seizure ofvictory in their revolution are accomplished invariablyby the power of the gun; they are accomplished underthe leadership of a proletarian party, by acting in accordance with that country's specific conditions, by gradually building up the people's armed forces and fighting apeople's war on the basis of arousing the broad massesto action, and by waging repeated struggles against theimperialists and reactionaries. This is true of the Russian revolution, the Chinese revolution, and the revolutions of Albania, Viet Nam, Korea and other countries,and there is no exception.

On the other hand, a proletarian party suffers setbacks in the revolution if it fails to go in for or givesup revolutionary armed force, and there have beenserious lessons: Some parties failed to take hold of the gun and were helpless in the face of sudden attacks byirnperialism and its lackeys and of counter-revolutionarysuppression, and as a result millions of revolutionary people were massacred. In some cases where the revolutionary people had already taken up arms and theirarmed forces had grown considerably, certain parties handed over the people's armed forces and forfeited the fruits of the revolution because they sought official posts in bourgeois governments or were duped by the reactionaries.

In the past decades, many Communist Parties haveparticipated in elections and parliaments, but none hasset up a dictatorship of the proletariat by such means.Even if a Communist Party should win a majority inparliament or participate in the government, this wouldnot mean any change in the character of bourgeoispolitical power, still less the smashing of the old state machine. The reactionary ruling classes can proclaimthe election null and void, dissolve the partriament ordirectly use violence to kick out the Communist Party.If a proletarian party does no mass work, rejects armedstruggle and makes a fetish of parliamentary elections,it will only lull the masses and corrupt itself. The bourgeoisie buys over a Communist Party through parliamentary elections and turns it into a revisionist party, a party of the bourgeoisie - are such cases rare inhistory?

The proletariat must use the gun to seize politicalpower and must use the gun to defend it. The people'sarmy under the leadership of a Marxist-Leninist partyis the bulwark of the dictatorship of the proletariat andamong the various factors for preventing the restoration of capitalism it is the main one. Having a people's armyarmed with the Marxist-Leninist ideology, the proletariatcan deal with any complicated situation in the domestic or international class struggle and safeguard the proletarian state.

[Blake's Baby]

I really don't understand that argument. Surely it's precisely voters who don't have a right to complain? 'Don't blame me I voted for the other guy...'

Yeah but you still played the game. If you lost you should suck it up. You can't say 'I think the process works when I win but not when I lose', that's just being a sore loser. Losing when you didn't even ask to play in the first place is more galling.

[Celtic_0ne]

if i vote i vote third party

[Prof. Oblivion]

The obsession of leftists over this topic is truly remarkable. The "principled" stance "Don't Vote" is equally as ineffective from a fundamental point of view as voting. Sure, voting isn't completely pointless, there are plenty of referendums that can be voted upon for example, and there are practical differences in some ways between candidates, but it's damn tough to identify them and figure out what is bullshit and what's reality. In the end the whole thing is a spectacle, and the power granted to people is inherently limited and frustrating. But to spend so much time arguing about what the "proper" response to voting is is silly and pointless IMO. Much better things to worry about than being that one annoying guy that posts "DON'T VOTE!" on your Facebook feed.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

This is maybe also one of those things that is difficult to come to a conclusion about in the abstract. A particular instance is being discussed in this thread (http://www.revleft.com/vb/2015-canadian-federal-t192864/index.html?t=192864).