Someday, we will have to fight these people....

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Russia Today has made this documentary on the resurgence of fascism in western Europe, and includes interviews with a former Waffen SS and a holocaust survivor:

IMWJf7OWSw4

I have said it once, and I shall say it again: You do NOT let these bastards hold their rallies in peace. You do NOT let these scumbags go unchallenged. You confront them at every turn. You isolate and ridicule them. And if you must, you BASH THEM.

[Comrade Jacob]

Fascists should first be debated with. Them cooperating is very rare but it's always worth a shot, if it fails they're worth a shot from a gun.

[BITW434]

While I understand that we are obviously opposed to the far-right, would it not be more productive to fight capitalism rather than fascism, seeing as fascism is just a symptom of the former?

[BIXX]

While I understand that we are obviously opposed to the far-right, would it not be more productive to fight capitalism rather than fascism, seeing as fascism is just a symptom of the former?
Not if fascists are in your neighborhood.

[BIXX]

Fascists should first be debated with. Them cooperating is very rare but it's always worth a shot, if it fails they're worth a shot from a gun.
No

Don't give them a place to stand.

[BITW434]

Not if fascists are in your neighborhood.
So what do you suggest we do? Focus on opposing fascists rather than fighting the actual material conditions which give rise to such abhorrent politics?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

The only way to really fight fascism happens to be the same as the only way to fight capitalism - workers' militancy, particularly worker-minority mobilisation. Isolated people throwing bricks just make themselves feel all important when in the end they haven't accomplished anything. Although even that's better than calling anti-fascist popular fronts to pressure the bourgeois state to use its police force against fascists.

[The Feral Underclass]

Providing the brick that's thrown happens to smash the face of a fascist, then I think that has accomplished something.

[The Feral Underclass]

Fascists should first be debated with.

Did you watch the documentary? I don't really understand how you could watch that and then make this statement.

There is no obligation or duty that anyone has to "debate" with people who commit themselves to actively forwarding ideas like this. Giving them the opportunity to make a case for their ideas is an incompetent thing to do while also giving the impression that there is a semblance of legitimacy to them; as if their views are cogent enough to participate in reasoned discussion.

[The Feral Underclass]

So what do you suggest we do? Focus on opposing fascists rather than fighting the actual material conditions which give rise to such abhorrent politics?

They are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to do both. It's not a one-or-the-other choice.

[cyu]

Find out who is organizing the rallies. Find out who is providing them funding. My guess that it's either a state agent or a capitalist.

[Ele'ill]

The only way to really fight fascism happens to be the same as the only way to fight capitalism - workers' militancy, particularly worker-minority mobilisation.

people who happen to be workers at work, or workers off work, or the homeless and unemployed, students, youth, physically confronting fascists, directly or indirectly, can be effective, I mean when it comes down to it you've already mentioned what's essentially a group of some size militantly confronting fascism you just have a thing against the brick metaphor although it would come to that, it comes to that already in a more fragmented manner simply without what you see as the guidance of your specific theory.



Isolated people throwing bricks just make themselves feel all important

I think the person stabbed outside of that social center or whatever it was recently could have used an isolated person throwing a brick or two, perhaps preemptively.




when in the end they haven't accomplished anything.

I would say they made an attempt to physically remove a fascist or something that has utility to a fascist.

[BITW434]

Providing the brick that's thrown happens to smash the face of a fascist, then I think that has accomplished something.
No, you won't have accomplished anything other than satisfying your fetish for throwing bricks. Why all this violent posturing towards a few reactionary lumpen proles - but none towards the bourgeoisie - you know, the class which actually holds power in society?


They are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to do both. It's not a one-or-the-other choice.
The best way to end fascism is by overthrowing capitalism. Trying to fight it in any other way will be largely pointless.

[Fakeblock]

While I understand that we are obviously opposed to the far-right, would it not be more productive to fight capitalism rather than fascism, seeing as fascism is just a symptom of the former?

It's not simply a question of curing the illness rather than the symptom. For the symptom are nothing else than a manifestation of the illness in its specificity. In the case of politics, fighting the symptom is practically equivalent to fighting the illness. Fascism is a historical mode of appearance of capitalist ideology and the capitalist State. In order to 'fight capitalism' in the abstract, it is necessary to fight it in its specificity - i.e. to confront capitalist ideology and political organisation in their concrete forms. It is only when the working class has actually gained State power and established itself as the dominant class that the relations of production and the capitalist division of labour can be transformed and the historical conditions for reaction abolished.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

people who happen to be workers at work, or workers off work, or the homeless and unemployed, students, youth, physically confronting fascists, directly or indirectly, can be effective, I mean when it comes down to it you've already mentioned what's essentially a group of some size militantly confronting fascism you just have a thing against the brick metaphor although it would come to that, it comes to that already in a more fragmented manner simply without what you see as the guidance of your specific theory.

Well, no, workers' mobilisation against fascism is a united front action. Most people who participate in it won't be guided by "my specific theory" and it would be surreal to expect that they would. The point is that it's an action of workers and the threatened minorities, not student politicos or leftist academics. And it's a collective action, pointed as much against the cops as against fascists (because whenever workers mobilise against fascists the cops are there to protect the Nazi darlings).

And I mean, god, students, what would they do, pass a NUS resolution about how anti-fascists are culturally appropriating black women? In nine cases out of ten student politics are fucking poison.

I'm old and miss the Red Avengers.


I think the person stabbed outside of that social center or whatever it was recently could have used an isolated person throwing a brick or two, perhaps preemptively.

That's not a political argument, though. I mean when you bring it down to this personal level, then you don't really have an answer when people start defending the police because person X Y or Z might have been killed if the cops hadn't caught Random Killer A.


I would say they made an attempt to physically remove a fascist or something that has utility to a fascist.

You could remove all the fascists in the world and new ones will fill their place as long as capitalism remains in decay and has not been overthrown.

[Ele'ill]

Well, no, workers' mobilisation against fascism is a united front action. Most people who participate in it won't be guided by "my specific theory" and it would be surreal to expect that they would.

The point is that it's an action of workers and the threatened minorities, not student politicos or leftist academics. And it's a collective action, pointed as much against the cops as against fascists (because whenever workers mobilise against fascists the cops are there to protect the Nazi darlings).

and what exactly could you speculate happening regarding a united front action against fascists, cops, military, etc.. would it not look a lot like a diverse set of tactics including bricks? Pretend for a moment that the united front is not literally everyone you've mentioned in a congaline at some major avenue in a big city and that individual work places, other spaces chosen over work places, are filled sometimes with a mix of people carrying out a diverse set of actions against fascists, the police, banks, whatever, isn't the action at that point the united front itself, just with actual autonomy?



And I mean, god, students, what would they do, pass a NUS resolution about how anti-fascists are culturally appropriating black women? In nine cases out of ten student politics are fucking poison.

I didn't mean students necessarily willfully filling the role of student like this but just generally youth/young adults who see their future as shit.







That's not a political argument, though. I mean when you bring it down to this personal level, then you don't really have an answer when people start defending the police because person X Y or Z might have been killed if the cops hadn't caught Random Killer A.

I might be misunderstanding you- I would argue that it is a political argument, because cops w/fascists and cops being fascists isn't an uncommon thing. I think on a political level you could say similar things regarding people getting caught alone with police regardless if they are a fascist or not.




You could remove all the fascists in the world and new ones will fill their place as long as capitalism remains in decay and has not been overthrown.

cool, but it could also be a fatal mistake for people to take this to mean putting them on an exclusive list to avoid when they reside in your work place, your neighborhood, so on and so forth

[Atsumari]

I was really excited until I saw this was Russia Today. This is nothing short of Russian propaganda concerning the EU and the political situation in Ukraine. The dramatic music throughout is really cringey.

[cyu]

These days, I see most military engagements as mere attempts to distract attention away from the fact that currencies are facing collapse from QE on the one hand, and stock markets facing collapse if they don't QE enough on the other hand.

A large action hides a small action. The bigger the problem you need to hide, the more gigantic the distraction you need.

[Futility Personified]

Anti-fascism should take place in any avenue that fascism appears. They should be debated and argued with, because even if we offer them no platform, the rightward slant of politics will. If they are too scared to organize because of physical altercation (and I am a weakling, with no anti-fa experience apart from pub arguments where I am amazed I haven't been savaged, who feels obligated to and is not looking forward to step up in some way) then that is a positive. You could argue it removes them from a potential sphere of debate, or that it encourages counter-violence, but writing at least from the UK, where fascist mobilisation is a joke in comparison to what is taking place in Eastern Europe, I see that as a good trade.

In terms of debating with them, some of the ideological hurdles are almost insurmountable. Once someone has actually internalized racism, there is only so much you can say to them.

To avoid confusion, give talking it over a go. But when you have nasty nazi lunatics knocking around everywhere because when debating inevitably failed, you didn't stop them getting together....

[The Intransigent Faction]

I was really excited until I saw this was Russia Today. This is nothing short of Russian propaganda concerning the EU and the political situation in Ukraine. The dramatic music throughout is really cringey.

Aw, I was gonna say "In before someone complains about RussiaToday".
I'm not a huge fan of RT, either. Some of their stories are thinly-veiled (or not-at-all-veiled) conspiracy junk. The threat of the far-right in Europe has been pretty well documented, though, and if anyone's going to start dismissing stories by attacking the source, then please be consistent and do the same to CNN, Fox, ABC, BBC, CBC, etc., none of which represent working-class interests.

As for confronting fascists, in my own experience, if you do it right you won't convince the fascist that he or she is wrong, nor will you necessarily even silence them. What you will do, hopefully, is cause anyone witnessing the confrontation to shift to the left, and to seriously question the hierarchical and divisive structuring of society that has fascism as a not-unlikely possible outcome in lieu of socialist revolution.

Physical confrontation is one thing, but fascist propaganda is something to be exposed to the masses as garbage, not feared. I have yet to convince a fascist to abandon fascism, but confronting fascists as a liberal led to me abandoning liberalism in favour of socialism. The most important thing, though, is to challenge capitalism. As soon as capitalism is effectively challenged by the working class for itself, the fascists themselves will show workers where they really stand---not only against 'foreign workers', but against the interests of the international proletariat.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I like how the bricks have been assimilated into the serious discourse we have here

[Atsumari]

Aw, I was gonna say "In before someone complains about RussiaToday".
I'm not a huge fan of RT, either. Some of their stories are thinly-veiled (or not-at-all-veiled) conspiracy junk. The threat of the far-right in Europe has been pretty well documented, though, and if anyone's going to start dismissing stories by attacking the source, then please be consistent and do the same to CNN, Fox, ABC, BBC, CBC, etc., none of which represent working-class interests.

As for confronting fascists, in my own experience, if you do it right you won't convince the fascist that he or she is wrong, nor will you necessarily even silence them. What you will do, hopefully, is cause anyone witnessing the confrontation to shift to the left, and to seriously question the hierarchical and divisive structuring of society that has fascism as a not-unlikely possible outcome in lieu of socialist revolution.

Physical confrontation is one thing, but fascist propaganda is something to be exposed to the masses as garbage, not feared. I have yet to convince a fascist to abandon fascism, but confronting fascists as a liberal led to me abandoning liberalism in favour of socialism. The most important thing, though, is to challenge capitalism. As soon as capitalism is effectively challenged by the working class for itself, the fascists themselves will show workers where they really stand---not only against 'foreign workers', but against the interests of the international proletariat.
The reason I do not attack ABC, MSNBC, FOX, or CBC is because I would be preaching to the choir. The reason I am vocal about RT because some people here use that as a legitimate source for left-wing politics, although most RT fans have been banned a long time ago lol

[Antiochus]

This is a serious topic but perhaps I'll lighten it up a bit. What the left needs is an uncompromising Chuck Norris, without all the red hair or creationism. I have some ideas:

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/227/735/1325617422669.jpg

[BIXX]

I am amazed that people are on this board actually saying attacking fascists is a bad thing if individuals do it.

What a wonderful example of belinskyism.

[Rafiq]

I am amazed that people are on this board actually saying attacking fascists is a bad thing if individuals do it.

What a wonderful example of belinskyism.

No one claims it is "bad", in fact, it can be quite beneficial for the radical spiritually. There is a difference, however, between an effective means of strengthening one's faith in their devotion to the cause personally and annihilating fascism. The threat is not mere people, but fascism's demographic appeal. Only a politically conscious, organized and disciplined proletariat can beat them back.

[Cliff Paul]

I like how the bricks have been assimilated into the serious discourse we have here

Brickism has become the new Forkliftism

[Ele'ill]

ok so in any event there's no united front / left unity currently or anywhere on the horizon if there ever will be one that doesn't inherently recoil against homogenized control/self-police and disintegrate in form (I doubt it) so when, or rather, where, there are fascists there are opportunities. Whether you want to frame these opportunties as 'against fascism's "demographic appeal"' or 'directly against the people who make up the political/social body that is bashing at bars, stabbing people, or generally making lots of people feel unsafe', i don't think either is bad. However to talk of direct action as 'spirituality' or 'faith' and then mention 'a unified working class' as the alternate solution is past the point of 'nice try' and is almost a lie.

[Rafiq]

This "alternate solution" is the ONLY solution, not just to the defeat of fascism, but to the emancipation of the proletariat from itself, and thereby not simply the destruction of fascism's foundations, but through its lived existence as a movement, a power that fascism cannot match - a power that in itself exposes fascism for the sham that it is.

To talk of this as a far off, improbability is the reproduction of its improbability. It is easy to attack fascists, as far as faith goes, and to defend oneself. This requires no self-struggle, it is legitimate even within the coordinates of the existing order. But to devote yourself to social transformation and the organized offensive against the existing order, this DOES require a leap of faith, especially when it's predispositions are not apparent or visible. To risk "self police" and the self destruction of the movement is worth it. It is worth it even to fail again more catastrophically, to keep failing better. But this is a non-problem: a mass movement creating structures of class repression (against the ruling class) and power is not the death of freedom but it's condition. We need to lose our fear of power and recognize Communism as an affirmative force that can exist independently of its opposition to those in power.

[The Feral Underclass]

No, you won't have accomplished anything other than satisfying your fetish for throwing bricks.

I don't have a fetish for throwing bricks, but I do see violence as a justifiable response to fascism.


Why all this violent posturing towards a few reactionary lumpen proles

But they're not just a few reactionary lumpen proles; that's a ridiculous characterisation. I'm talking about militant fascists who organise and operate within communities.


but none towards the bourgeoisie - you know, the class which actually holds power in society?

I think my position on class violence is well documented on this site. I don't feel the need to point out what should already be blindingly obvious.


The best way to end fascism is by overthrowing capitalism.

I haven't disputed that. I just reject this position that seems to claim it's an either or choice.


Trying to fight it in any other way will be largely pointless.


The immediate aim of beating up fascists is not pointless.; there is a great deal of point to it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Comrade Jacob]

Fair enough, I'm just trying to be nice. Shot fascists on site.

[Ele'ill]

This "alternate solution" is the ONLY solution, not just to the defeat of fascism, but to the emancipation of the proletariat from itself, and thereby not simply the destruction of fascism's foundations, but through its lived existence as a movement, a power that fascism cannot match - a power that in itself exposes fascism for the sham that it is.

The primary point I was making that still applies as a rebuttal here is that the enemies of this mobilisation are not going to respect it they are going to attack it both in its infancy through its peak. The mass workers united front mobilisation/communism isn't inherently going to happen at all, hence not waiting, because while confrontation of varying types might not erradicate fascism as an idea it can remove individual fascists and things that have utility to them. I assume you are aware that the brick is literal and also a metaphor.

I appreciate the rest of your post that I did not quote and respond to but to respond to it would shift the thread in a direction of tendency war I hope you understand.

[cyu]

If authoritarian structures are weak in that the men on top become single-points-of-failure, then those weaknesses should be exploited as fully as possible.

[mushroompizza]

Wouldn't the best way to combat fascism is kindness, I know we all want to just throw rocks but it doesn't work. Anger/hate can only be calmed through peace and friendliness. This is not political but psychological and proven. Antagonism only continues the conflict. Most neo nazis claim they left the cause because of something as simple as meeting a nice jew or nice black guy, I mean the bricks thrown didn't stop them, but seeing a black guy who was working at salvation army does.

[Rafiq]

The primary point I was making that still applies as a rebuttal here is that the enemies of this mobilisation are not going to respect it they are going to attack it both in its infancy through its peak.

I think we're largely on the same page here, I completely and wholly agree that any organized action against them is commendable and should be supported. That being said, my point is that in the long term Fascism can't be beaten without, as I mentioned, an organized and militant working class. When I said that it is spiritually beneficial, or that it enhances ones faith in the prospect of emancipation, I wasn't being dismissive or ironic but absolutely serious. To combat the hellhounds of the existing order is spiritually beneficial, in that it is a direct personal confrontation against their vileness and filth, against the odds of despair in the face of such filth. It is the triumph of the temporal justice and of the goodness wrought from our cause. Faith isn't simply hope, it is lived confidence that we can act, that we don't have to be passive. Now this is a very powerful thing, and it's important to understand that - but my point is that in the long term, one isn't actually striking a real blow against Fascism, or the causes of its inception by doing this.

One doesn't simply choose to confront them. One has to. Through this necessity is to be possessed by true freedom.

[BIXX]

While I don't understand any of the spiritual stuff you day rafiq I think you're saying that hurting fascists is good so I'm OK with that.

[The Feral Underclass]

Bollocks. You said you were torn between Labour and the Greens in the general election thread. Some class violence that is

I think it's perfectly legitimate to criticise someone for deciding to vote in a bourgeois election, but if you're going to do that, you have an obligation to do it honestly. Taking one post in one thread about one particular issue in isolation of the entire spectrum of my political beliefs is dishonest. My position on class violence is well documented on this website, irrespective of my voting preference in the 2015 UK general election.

I also think it is important for you -- and for others -- to learn the art of thinking outside of binary positions. You seem stuck in this very strange way of operating in which all decisions come down to a choice between two things. Fighting fascism or fighting capitalism, voting green or class violence. It's not helpful and it doesn't really address the complexities of the situations we're discussing.

[John Nada]

Wouldn't the best way to combat fascism is kindness, I know we all want to just throw rocks but it doesn't work. Anger/hate can only be calmed through peace and friendliness. This is not political but psychological and proven. Antagonism only continues the conflict. Most neo nazis claim they left the cause because of something as simple as meeting a nice jew or nice black guy, I mean the bricks thrown didn't stop them, but seeing a black guy who was working at salvation army does.Fascists tend to have an authoritiarian personality (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authoritarian_personality). People with an authoritarian personality strongly believe in a hierarchy of oppression. They're hostile to minorities and anything outside the norm. All about their nation is good, everything else is evil. It's all black and white, no in between. Even if presented with something that disproves their beliefs, they will just set it aside and compartmentalize it away.

There is no debating with fascists. Even if you showed them a Jewish or Black person doing good deeds, they set that aside. They separate that from their beliefs. They could even seemingly be "friends" with a Jew or Black person, yet still wish them death. You might as well smack your head against a brick wall. It'd actually be better, because at least you wouldn't give them a platform to preach their hate.

Fascist are not people you try to win over. They are scum, capitalists' backup plan when the workers threaten revolution. They tend to come from the petty-bourgeoisie, their interest are not the same as the proletariat and oppressed peoples. I mean look at the times fascism has take root! Fuck don't just throw bricks, throw everything you've got!

[Ele'ill]

Wouldn't the best way to combat fascism is kindness,

when a few people in ski masks roll up on you I don't think it matters what you are they've already made their decision

kindness towards fascism on a broader level is called support, political






I know we all want to just throw rocks but it doesn't work.

it's physics and physiology of course it works


Anger/hate can only be calmed through peace and friendliness. This is not political but psychological and proven. Antagonism only continues the conflict.

but friendliness and kindness towards an enemy is essentially your compromise and consent for them to continue their abuse, the antagonism exists because the conflict exists, the abuse is still present




Most neo nazis claim they left the cause because of something as simple as meeting a nice jew or nice black guy, I mean the bricks thrown didn't stop them, but seeing a black guy who was working at salvation army does.


most as in about 1 that got picked up on some 60minutes type news program / day-time tv and broadcast over the metropolis as a new trend

[mushroompizza]

Hmmmm this is actually a pretty interesting psychological scenario "how to deal with hate?" isn't there an actual psychologist on this forum I could have sworn I saw her somewhere?

[cyu]

The following are excerpts from a private mail thread, reproduced here:

I would probably argue that whenever people act out or do something “negative”, it is either because they don’t feel loved, or because they don’t have enough love in their lives. If you fill someone up with self-esteem and the feeling that they are loved, then it eventually overflows and they start being generous to other people. If you empty them out of self-esteem and love, then they may eventually lash out, either at themselves or at others.

1. Someone is persecuted for a long time, emptying their “gas tank”.
2. They manage to escape persecution, but by then, they are pretty much in survival mode only.
3. They see someone get in their way, and their reflexive reaction is to attack them to survive.
4. This results in a cycle of tit-for-tat attacks between both sides.
5. You come in and try to rescue them. You try to fill up their empty “gas tank”.
6. However, their tank is still leaking, due to the various tit-for-tat attacks they’ve gotten themselves involved in. Their original abusers may still be around as well.
7. So whatever you add in, more leaks out the other end.

…of course, some people are repulsed by step 5 and don’t even get very far there, since their automatic reaction to everyone is hostile, which doesn’t make many people want to help them.

You’d basically have to take over their entire situation – isolate them from all their major problems – before you can start filling them up again. Most people would probably be like, “Wait what? You want me to fix all your problems? Considering how nasty you are to others, if I’m going to fix all of anybody’s problems, there’s a whole lot of more deserving people than you.” …not only that, they’d probably treat you with suspicion and hostility if you try to get involved, since that’s how the world has trained them to view others …and there are certainly a lot of people in the world who spiral into a hell partly (though not entirely) of their own making.

Was reminded of http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/03/100308151049.htm

When people benefit from kindness they "pay it forward" by helping others who were not originally involved, and this creates a cascade of cooperation that influences dozens more in a social network.

when one person gives money to help others in a "public-goods game," where people have the opportunity to cooperate with each other, the recipients are more likely to give their own money away to other people in future games. This creates a domino effect in which one person's generosity spreads first to three people and then to the nine people that those three people interact with in the future, and then to still other individuals in subsequent waves of the experiment.

"You don't go back to being your 'old selfish self.''' As a result, the money a person gives in the first round of the experiment is ultimately tripled by others who are subsequently (directly or indirectly) influenced to give more.

The contagious effect in the study was symmetric; uncooperative behavior also spread.