Bigotry Amongst So Called Leftists

[Sinister Intents]

I'm gonna be completely straight forward and say that if you hold racist, sexist, transphobic, classist, and other prejudices, you're either not a communist or anarchist, or you're an inconsistent one.

The sheer number of bigoted male anarchists/communists/socialists, however the hell they label themselves, I find highly distressing. Even on this forum with certain members crying things like "misandry" or they defend sexism because of their male privilege and they take it as an attack on them, and they expose themselves as a part of the problem. I've heard about the mansplaining of certain members of this board, who I will not mention. They essentially shut down women's arguments and denied what she was saying and pushed their opinion while pushing what she says off to the side, and insisting upon his correctness.

I've noticed on Facebook and around the internet these terrible idealists that think communism can be achieved immediately, and that womens' and LGBTQIA liberation must take a back seat in a revolutionary situation, because they insist that their is no problem, that it's natural, or that feminism is attempting to create a matriarchy or is only for "sexist women."

I've also noticed a moron cry that some men "accidentally rape." I've only ever heard the contradiction of that, that the man usually knows what he's doing and goes through with his act of violence anyway. On the facebook group I'm a part of, I admin the page with the creator of this page. I banned this idiot for his rape apology and claiming rape to not be a problem, and that women just somehow dramatize it and that cases of rape aren't bad. Good job dumbass, for watering a huge problem down and defending men that are a part of the problem and rapists all in one!

There are also these men that know of feminism, but they don't apply it to themselves and they continue to be a part of the problem, and when they're called out, they deny it.

So many men seem to think that feminism is just a one-sided ordeal, when in actuality it's about equality between all genders and lack thereof. There are also the men that claim they're not a part of the problem when they begin defending their cishet, white male privilege. When called out they cry racism and sexism against themselves, because apparently they think that calling out their privilege is an attack on their whiteness, they defend their privilege which they're ignorant to it existing.

There is a serious, a very serious problem with misogyny and sexism among, and also racism and other prejudices amongst so called lefists. Self-proclaimed communists and anarchists supporting the status quo, defending their privilege, and being completely blind to a serious problem. It is absolutely necessary to combat these prejudices and educate people.

It should be common knowledge that feminism is innate within communism and anarchism, but it seems a lot of men treat the feminists like liberal morons who only want power. They ignore, do not know, or completely go against the fact that feminism is entirely about equality.

I might make revisions to this later. But here are my current thoughts.

[Atsumari]

As much as I dislike Stalinists, I had a lot of respect for Greg Lucero of the SLCC RSU and FRSO but after the rape scandal, I lost all respect for him as a feminist when he silence the women bringing forth the accusation of rape against an FRSO member by stating that they are old fashioned racist feminists.
And we cannot forget leftists who share FARC, PKK, and Naxalite girls with guns in a rather creepy way on Facebook during International Women's Day.
This is also a depressing read of leftists and their treatment of women.
http://www.academia.edu/148962/Terrorism_Gender_and_Ideology_A_Case_Study_of_Wome n_who_Join_the_Revolutionary_Armed_Forces_of_Colom bia_FARC_

Plus, we cannot forget that the person who gave birth to the men's rights movement was a socialist
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Belfort_Bax

[Sinister Intents]

I could've mentioned transphobes and transmisogynists, and they piss me off. I don't need to rant further on my anger.

[consuming negativity]

the amount of misogyny in our culture is so great that I can hardly believe it at times. all of us are developing and I still find tons of sexist or racist beliefs that I have every so often. it's a struggle but it makes us strong. we will change this world and women and gender and racial minorities around the world will one day be treated with the respect they deserve.

[The Disillusionist]

This is what a thread should look like. It presents a problem, a serious problem with a solid base of evidence, and it argues a thought-out, well-explained case concerning that problem. My only complaint is that it doesn't argue very much for a solution, and thus lacks a concluding statement or final point to the argument.

Of course, I can't really provide a solution either, except for some vague, directionless, superficial, feel-good solution, like "changing the culture" and "promoting a new atmosphere of tolerance." It takes a long time to get people and cultures to change, and they can change in very unpredictable ways. The only real action I think we can take is to participate in movements we agree with, and avoid movements that promote or allow bigotry. We could react with simple-minded violence and attack them, but that would just foster the us vs. them mentality and strengthen their opposition towards us.

I think the most powerful weapon against bigotry is education and experience. As a result, I think it would also be good to raise more awareness about the great things leftist women and minorities have done, and how their struggle benefits us all in the end (though really, you shouldn't have to get something out of it to support equality).

[BIXX]

9573

Honestly though the solution isn't educating its fighting IMO because these people should already be fucking educated.

[Per Levy]

And we cannot forget leftists who share FARC, PKK, and Naxalite girls with guns in a rather creepy way on Facebook during International Women's Day.

yeah that is pretty awful in general. its usually just "oh look hot chicks with guns and they are vagually leftitst too". and speaking of the pkk, i find it pretty ironic that so many anarchists are now into the pkk and its leader öcalan, who is a unapologetic rapist, just because they proclaim to follow bookchin now.

[Sinister Intents]

This is what a thread should look like. It presents a problem, a serious problem with a solid base of evidence, and it argues a thought-out, well-explained case concerning that problem. My only complaint is that it doesn't argue very much for a solution, and thus lacks a concluding statement or final point to the argument.

That's good that this thread presents the problem, but it is difficult to find a solution to the problem. I couldn't specifically find a proper conclusion, hence my statement saying I'll add revisions, so I can elaborate here perhaps. A solution would definitely be education, it would be to call out these people and expose to them where they're wrong. It will become necessary to expose them to a myriad of data to prove the point that they're being bigoted, thus reactionary. A conclusory statement would state the necessity of engaging these people and educating them on why they're wrong. For example, when someone defends rape by using the: "Not All Men" argument, then it is necessary to state that no one is saying all men, but male dominance and privileged males are a part of the problem. They must be informed of their privilege and shown that rape is a hideous problem where their is within our patriarchal culture, an acceptance of it as something normal, and they downplay it. They become a part of the problem by defending their bigotry, and they must be shown how they're a part of the problem.


Of course, I can't really provide a solution either, except for some vague, directionless, superficial, feel-good solution, like "changing the culture" and "promoting a new atmosphere of tolerance." It takes a long time to get people and cultures to change, and they can change in very unpredictable ways. The only real action I think we can take is to participate in movements we agree with, and avoid movements that promote or allow bigotry. We could react with simple-minded violence and attack them, but that would just foster the us vs. them mentality and strengthen their opposition towards us.

On my paragraph above I could've provided better information, and a larger reason in which we can all partake in the discussion here and find further solutions, and how to improve upon what we already have here. You're indeed correct. Also to react with violence is reactionary in itself, it goes against educating these people and creates further divisions. Engaging them is the proper discourse, but violence can only do so much, and if anything violence will be highly alienating to people that can potentially be shown how they're wrong, how they're defending their bigotry and privilege, and so on.


I think the most powerful weapon against bigotry is education and experience. As a result, I think it would also be good to raise more awareness about the great things leftist women and minorities have done, and how their struggle benefits us all in the end (though really, you shouldn't have to get something out of it to support equality).

Absolutely.


9573

Honestly though the solution isn't educating its fighting IMO because these people should already be fucking educated.

How about the utilization of violence in these cases will only create alienation and further peoples' stereotypes. It will only create a bad image of feminists and social revolutionists, and it will exactly create further reactionary opposition. The proper discourse is to engage them and continually attempt to educate these people, if push comes to shove and they instigate violence, then violence will become a necessity against the reactionary. Violence should only be used as a defensive measure rather than being the sole solution. Utilizing violence in this case is reactionary and will lead to divisions. Definitely fighting will be necessary, the liberals and reactionaries must be combated with a myriad of tactics, through educating them and engaging them in various ways, but violence should be the absolute last discourse.

[Cliff Paul]

Honestly though the solution isn't educating its fighting IMO because these people should already be fucking educated.

have you ever encountered a problem that you didn't think throwing bricks could solve?

[Redistribute the Rep]

Mansplaining is a big problem on this forum for me. A lot of men will probably read this and agree with it and not see that they're a part of the problem, and continue with their behavior. Men really are clueless

[Zealot]

A facebook group? Well I'm not surprised. It's not like the internet is a bastion of leftist intellectual thought. I'm not sure how widespread these opinions are among the left in general but I would be horrified to find out that leftist views can be accurately gleaned from internet posters.

[Kingfish]

So many men seem to think that feminism is just a one-sided ordeal, when in actuality it's about equality between all genders and lack thereof.

I see a very similar situation when it comes to people and understanding the left in general. When your understanding of feminism and socialism is informed primarily by the bourgeois iteration of it I can easily see why people reject it.

If one does not see feminism in the context of social struggle and class conflict, one is left with a rather vapid ideology in the same way that looking at socialism without its scientific components such as historical materialism and socioeconomic analysis leaves you with a hopelessly utopian and idealistic mess.

As far as solutions go, I don't have a particularly good answer. I have been of the opinion that as the flaws of capitalism become more acute and technology continues to diminish the differences between men and women there will be a mechanical shift in consciousness on the issue in the same way we see this happen in economic matters.

That being said I feel that such a view is a tad idealistic even if calling people out on the bigotry is a part of this process because in my experience this does not seem to be occurring.

[BIXX]

have you ever encountered a problem that you didn't think throwing bricks could solve?
In this instance however I'm jot just thinking bricks. Brick on fire, bricks soaked in acid, the whole works. Open your mind.

But seriously, if a leftist hasn't adopted and anti-sexist position (or doesn't realize they are part of the problem, go ahead and tell them. I don't doubt that "calling them out" can work but I see it more as a weapon for the acquisition for social capital than improving our communities.

I think fighting back against individuals who ruthlessly are not only defended by our community but continue their bullshit is important, our community made a wrong decision. For example, Tomas Bernal of the IWW in Portland is a child molester but has been using his popularity to protect himself from people (he didn't even take responsibility for what he did). So yeah, fighting back is the best option, especially when this is the story that we see so often, including in the insurrectionist, organizationalist, Marxist, anarchist, etc... scenes. This is what we encounter most. Someone does or says something fucked up, the community defends them. At that point the community is just as much our enemy. I highly doubt you can educate the entire community but be my guest.

I'm all for the alienation of racists, sexists, child molesters, etc...

[Cliff Paul]

and speaking of the pkk, i find it pretty ironic that so many anarchists are now into the pkk and its leader öcalan, who is a unapologetic rapist, just because they proclaim to follow bookchin now

i don't care much for öcalan but the claim that he is a rapist is ridiculous

[Lily Briscoe]

^uh, why is it "ridiculous"?

[Cliff Paul]

^uh, why is it "ridiculous"?

because the claim that he's a rapist is based off of this quote provided by the ICC:


“These girls mentioned. I don’t know, I have relations with thousands of them. I don’t care how anyone understands it. If I’ve gotten close with some of them, how should this have been? (…) On these subjects, they leave aside all the real measurements and find someone and gossip, say ‘this was attempted to be done to me here’ or ‘this was done to me there’! These shameless women both want to give too much and then develop such things. Some of the people mentioned. Good grace! They say ‘we need it so, it would be very good’ and then this gossip is developed (…) I’m saying it openly again. This is the sort of warrior I am. I love girls a lot, I value them a lot. I love all of them. I try to turn every girl into a lover, in an unbelievable level, to the point of passion. I try to shape them from their physique to their soul, to their thoughts. I see it in myself to fulfill this task. I define myself openly. If you find me dangerous, don’t get close!”

of course you can't find the original turkish version of the text online - there's only this horrible english translation which is borderline unintelligible

[mushroompizza]

Well the left is always evolving, Marx believed in gay rights but Engels was a homophobe.
Marx was indifferent on Feminism, but Engels became involved in feminism after Marx's death. Now most socialist parties are feminist, before (1800s) very few were.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Well the left is always evolving, Marx believed in gay rights but Engels was a homophobe.
They were both homophobic, and there was no concept of "gay rights" in Marx's era.

[BIXX]

They were both homophobic, and there was no concept of "gay rights" in Marx's era.

There actually was, interestingly enough. And Marx was kinda a dick about it.

9574

I can't speak for how large it was or anything but I haven't done a ton of research about that time period specifically.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

There actually was, interestingly enough.
Well, there were people with same-sex desire, and some of them were politicized and had demands, but there was no gay identity as we understand it and thus no concept of rights granted based on such an identity.

[Sea]

9573

Honestly though the solution isn't educating its fighting IMO because these people should already be fucking educated.Which end do we apply the brick to? :confused:

[Sinister Intents]

Which end do we apply the brick to? :confused:

I believe an incision is made in the neck, and the brick inserted next to the esophagus, Then you seal the neck up and try to bake a cake with the sexist as you explain intersectional oppression

[BIXX]

Which end do we apply the brick to? :confused:
Don't worry about it, not any of your business.

[Sea]

Don't worry about it, not any of your business.:(

[Antiochus]

Oh shut the fuck up about your bricks
http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2009/02/30805,xcitefun-jordanian-006.jpg

[BIXX]

Oh shut the fuck up about your bricks
http://img.xcitefun.net/users/2009/02/30805,xcitefun-jordanian-006.jpg
I find that picture offensive.

[Comrade Jacob]

Marxist-Leninist have been historically socially-bigoted and I can admit to that. That's something I can criticise my heroes for.

[Sea]

Marxist-Leninist have been historically socially-bigoted and I can admit to that. That's something I can criticise my heroes for.And I can criticize fellow Marxist-Leninists for having heroes in the first place.

[Apollodorus]

Marxist-Leninist have been historically socially-bigoted and I can admit to that. That's something I can criticise my heroes for.

They've almost always been on the right side of history, however. I mean, they have always been less bigoted than is normal for their society at the time.

[Comrade Jacob]

They've almost always been on the right side of history, however. I mean, they have always been less bigoted than is normal for their society at the time.

I agree, we can't hold it against them. There must be things that we believe that will be seen as bigoted in years to come.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'll use my personal example one more time. I used to be a member of the Irish Republican Socialist Committees of North America, but resigned a couple of years ago because I was tired of dealing with another member who was, and still is, openly misogynist and homophobic.