Under the DOTP, what is the economy, specifically?

[Jacob Cliff]

I understand that the DOTP is the period that capitalism transforms into communist society. I also understand (thanks to viewing much debate in the comments here) that the DOTP is not socialism.

So what is the economy under the DOTP? Is it State-Capitalist — if so, why, and would full-on state planning not give rise to a bureaucracy akin to that of the Soviet Union?
Or is the economy under the DOTP socialistic but bearing the "birthmarks of capital" — such as money-exchange and "bourgeois right," gradually ridding itself of these things as society becomes more "socialistic?"

....

And I know, obviously, nobody can make firm estimates like the one I'm about to present, but just out of curiosity, how long do you suspect the DOTP to last until the state withers away? 100 years? Less? More?

Sorry for the newbie questions, but they've been on my mind.

[Jacob Cliff]

And if I can add, was the USSR's economy that of a genuine workers' state, only hijacked by an unaccountable bureaucracy, or would you argue otherwise? If it was, what measures would prevent bureaucratism from infecting society once more?

[ckaihatsu]

I understand that the DOTP is the period that capitalism transforms into communist society. I also understand (thanks to viewing much debate in the comments here) that the DOTP is not socialism.


I, for one, will argue that anything programmatic or prescriptive like the 'dotp' is basically a *placeholder* -- it is a *supposition* based on past experiences that may or may not be relevant to actual future events as they play out.

For example, perhaps bourgeois world events finally grind down to a definitive standstill and a worldwide groundswell of class consciousness is the result -- would, after reading RevLeft posts for a month, most people in the world be thinking 'dotp' or would they look around and call for an *immediate* collective control of productive assets by the global proletariat -- ?

The 'dotp' is meant as a *transitional* measure, and would undoubtedly have to be adjusted to be either more-lasting or even *skipped altogether* depending on what actual circumstances warrant.





So what is the economy under the DOTP? Is it State-Capitalist — if so, why, and would full-on state planning not give rise to a bureaucracy akin to that of the Soviet Union?


Well, this *would* be the danger -- since it's not private ownership and it's not fully workers control, either, it would empower a stratum of specialized *bureaucrats*, and increasingly so as time elapsed.





Or is the economy under the DOTP socialistic but bearing the "birthmarks of capital" — such as money-exchange and "bourgeois right," gradually ridding itself of these things as society becomes more "socialistic?"


The reason for retaining wages and money-based exchange values is strictly for *convenience*, given an objective inability for workers to seize control of production *outright* -- if productive assets (means of mass production) are bureaucratized then at least that means that private ownership is usurped and major decision-making over production is taken out of the hands of capital.





....

And I know, obviously, nobody can make firm estimates like the one I'm about to present, but just out of curiosity, how long do you suspect the DOTP to last until the state withers away? 100 years? Less? More?


No one has a crystal ball.





Sorry for the newbie questions, but they've been on my mind.




And if I can add, was the USSR's economy that of a genuine workers' state, only hijacked by an unaccountable bureaucracy, or would you argue otherwise? If it was, what measures would prevent bureaucratism from infecting society once more?


The self-organized, spontaneous soviets *were* briefly a genuine workers' social organization over production, but then larger objective factors called for both *centralization* and a single point of organization against bourgeois incursions, hence the Bolsheviks. The further degeneration led to Stalinism, to maintain internal cohesion.

As I've described above bureaucratism is an in-between control of society for where mass workers control is not yet reachable.

[Pancakes Rühle]

The mode of production remains capitalist under the DOTP. When the mode of production becomes socialism, then classes and the state (thus the dotp) also disappears.

[Die Neue Zeit]

The mode of production remains capitalist under the DOTP. When the mode of production becomes socialism, then classes and the state (thus the dotp) also disappears.

I think we all need to get our transition terminology clear here.

Not all forms of generalized commodity production are "capitalist" or "bourgeois." Only that which enshrines all of capital / private property relations, wage labour, and the exploitation of labour (citing both post-WWII Stalin and Amadeo Bordiga's criticism).

On the other hand is the lower phase of the communist mode of production, quite distinct from all forms of generalized commodity production.

Until the arrival of this lower phase, generalized commodity production prevails, even without private property relations. Whether this "commodity production without capitalists" (again citing Stalin and Bordiga) is "state-capitalist" is up for debate.