Crashed Flight & Antidepressants

[Tim Cornelis]

Some time ago there was this Dutch bus driver that deliberately steered into a concrete barrier inside a tunnel killing an entire class of school children. Some time later I saw a program on TV about this and his use of antidepressants which they showed was a likely trigger for his murder-suicide action. It also went into detail about how the manufacturing companies do everything to downplay the causal relationship between murderous rage and their drugs. They have also been linked to mass shootings such as school shootings. And now, almost as expected, there's a large possibility that the co-pilot that killed 149 and himself was on it too.

I don't really feel comfortable 'hijacking' such a human tragedy that is not directly related to politics or economics for political purposes, but if it turns out that his action is linked to antidepressants then goes to show again that profits are more important than human lives.

[#FF0000]

I think the way SSRIs are prescribed as if they're the answer to absolutely everything shows that. I wasn't even diagnosed with depression before a doctor put me on antidepressants. I don't think the issue is antidepressants themselves -- millions of people take them and don't kill themselves and everyone around them -- but what we're talking about isn't aspirin and can seriously mess someone up if they're taking the drug and don't need it.

[Cliff Paul]

The question is whether or not SSRIs cause people to engage in actions like this when they otherwise wouldn't. I think it would be pretty hard to prove definitively either way, since if you are a person with violent thoughts / self destructive behavior, chances are you probably are on SSRIs. Therefore most school shootings and other extreme murder suicides like this are probably caused by people on SSRIs.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The problem with linking anti-depressants conclusively to acts like this is the fact that the drugs themselves are being used to treat a mental condition which could have easily led to such an action by itself. In a similar way it's difficult to conclusively link anti-insomnia drugs and tranquilizers to health issues, although there have been connections; the condition of insomnia itself has the potential to pose health problems, and the link of cognitive problems later in life to tranquilizers could in fact be an offshoot of the very problem the tranquilizers were originally prescribed for.

And shit, the mechanism of action for anti-depressants involving serotonin uptake/reuptake is pretty speculative, as far as providing an actual benefit to severely depressed people, so a link to extreme anti-social acts also seems equally speculative, and not really based in neuroscience...anyway, the cutting edge of depression treatment nowadays are drugs which effect NMDA receptors, not serotonin...

[The Intransigent Faction]

And shit, the mechanism of action for anti-depressants involving serotonin uptake/reuptake is pretty speculative, as far as providing an actual benefit to severely depressed people, so a link to extreme anti-social acts also seems equally speculative, and not really based in neuroscience...anyway, the cutting edge of depression treatment nowadays are drugs which effect NMDA receptors, not serotonin...

I think that's precisely the point, though. If it's really that speculative to the point that we don't understand its mechanism or its effects, then speculatively playing with fire by messing around with aspects of neuroscience which we don't sufficiently understand because it happens to be profitable...is a terrible idea.

Anyway, with my own past I'm not one to make excuses for big pharma, but even supposing a direct link between anti-depressants and this sort of behaviour, it seems more likely to be a contributing factor than a sole cause. In many of these cases there's a tragic "perfect storm" of factors which contribute to the perpetrator(s) emotional instability, not to mention their ability to actually carry out those actions once in that state of mind. This might sound like a truism, but it's highly situational, and while we can slap the generic label of "depressed" on someone, this alone tells us nothing about why that led to murder-suicide. Implying that depression itself is enough to make such things happen just makes it easier to marginalize and demonize malcontents.

One way or another, what we can recognize is that capitalists approach treatment of mental health in the same way as anything else: they seek profits. That, of course, is no more of a solution to the social effects of mental health issues than to any other social issues.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i read something a while back that it turns out that SSRIs don't even work the way we thought they did which is a bit alarming considering they're widespread as hell and make up part of my balanced and healthy diet.

[Ocean Seal]

Guys, its really not that simple. I'm not saying that SSRI's don't increase the possibility of suicide (they do, most psychiatrists know this), but what pushes you to suicide is typically more than relatively weak psychoactive drugs. The way that SSRI's increase your possibility of suicide is that they give you more energy, which in turn when you pick them up can increase your suicide risk. But instead we need to have a more than psychological explanation for what makes someone do this especially when they kill others. They may have their reasons in the same way that Islamic suicide bombers have their reasons although the reasons of these guys have can be more vague.


Perhaps overwork, low wages, isolation, the promotion of misanthropy in our culture. Why don't we have a cultural critique rather than dismissing this as an aberration. That is the power of the ruling culture, they get us to dismiss any serious criticism of it by isolating and marginalizing any flaw.

[L.A.P.]

I used to be really anti-pharmaceutical, and thought psychiatric discourse sought to pathologize what I thought was a social issue. But I just started taking lexapro for anxiety about two weeks ago, and I have to admit my life has improved in almost every way since. I've p. much quit smoking pot.

I dont want to make this about me, but this discussion has raised some questions for myself. Do you guys feel SSRIs are ever appropriate for treatment?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I used to be really anti-pharmaceutical, and thought psychiatric discourse sought to pathologize what I thought was a social issue. But I just started taking lexapro for anxiety about two weeks ago, and I have to admit my life has improved in almost every way since. I've p. much quit smoking pot.

I dont want to make this about me, but this discussion has raised some questions for myself. Do you guys feel SSRIs are ever appropriate for treatment?

Sure, why not? Empirically, they seem to work in some cases at least. This does not mean psychiatry and the disease model of conditions like depression etc. are unassailable. Folk "doctors" of various sorts will sometimes prescribe effective treatments - but that doesn't mean the model they use is correct. With psychiatry as it is practiced today, there seem to be a lot of problems, from high rates of comorbidity, political use of psychiatry against minorities and so on. So the model likely has serious faults - that doesn't mean everything psychiatrists do and prescribe is harmful, though. One can take anti-anxiety medications (as I did years ago) and still think the coercive powers of psychiatrists need to be fought against, for example.

As for the plane, I haven't really kept up to date with the investigation, but one possibility that I've heard mentioned, and that sounded plausible to me, was that this was due to a labour dispute. There were similar cases in the past - including one where the worker downed an airplane, I believe. As I said, though, I haven't kept up and maybe new evidence has ruled that out.

[#FF0000]

As for the plane, I haven't really kept up to date with the investigation, but one possibility that I've heard mentioned, and that sounded plausible to me, was that this was due to a labour dispute. There were similar cases in the past - including one where the worker downed an airplane, I believe. As I said, though, I haven't kept up and maybe new evidence has ruled that out.

Working conditions can be linked to a lot of plane crashes -- even accidental ones. I remember there was a big controversy over one crash a couple years ago. The black box showed that the pilots were talking about having second jobs and feeling overworked and exhausted. The controversy was, of course, that pilots would dare to talk about anything but flying a plane while flying a plane.

[John Nada]

Has it been revealed what anti-depressant the pilot in the crash might've took, and for what? SSRIs aren't the only class of anti-depressants, nor are anti-depressants only prescribe for depression. Anti-depressants are often prescribed off-label for insomnia or as a stimulant. It could've been for jet-lag. They're also used for anxiety disorders, OCD, to quit smoking, and for pain.

Anti-depressants were discovered in the 50's. An experimental treatment for tuberculosis was noted to cause an unusually good mood in patients who were otherwise fucked. This lead to the development of a class called the MAOIs(which were already know for millennia in ayahuasca in South America). These mostly fell out of favor except for Parkinson's due to a large amount of dangerous drug interactions and requiring a strict diet.

Another class called tricyclics were discovered in the search for a new anti-psychotic. The anti-psychotics themselves were discovered from strong anti-histamines that when given to people who suffered from psychotic disorders, were then brought closer to "normal". The tricyclics by themselves didn't help with schizophrenic or bipolar psychosis, in fact often made it worse. However for major depression in adults it works great. These one's aren't used as much now due to toxicity and strong sedative effect, though they're common off-label for insomnia.

The infamous SSRI came into being later. It was based on, get this, OTC anti-histamines. The hypothesis being that what caused the antidepressant effect in MAOIs and tricyclics was by increasing serotonin(which both did, among many other things). If the other effects like anti-histamine action were cut out, it was supposed to be superior. So various compounds similar to tricyclics and known anti-histamines were screened for their effect on serotonin. One's like Prozac worked for major depression, and it was marketed like fuck as a superior replacement for tricyclics. Supposedly less toxic, and with less sedation. However, IIRC it turned out that SSRIs indirectly increase dopamine, which is what all happiness-inducing drugs do.:) Unfortunately, this came at an increased risk of uncontrollable movement disorders and sexual dysfunction(very notorious for this).

AFAIK antidepressants are generally no better than placebo for mild to moderate depression, and actually worse than placebo for bipolar depression(without an adjacent treatment, because it can induce mania). It's really only effective for major depression in adults, and IIRC OCD. Each type is about equally (in)effective, just what side effects are bearable(drowsiness vs insomnia, hypotension vs. sexual dysfunction, abnormal heart rhythm vs increased bleeding).

I fucking hate SSRI. People who go all homicidal and suicidal on them probably from the libido destroying effects alone.:mad: Raise the fucking dopamine, directly stimulate the 5-htp2a receptors and/or block the NMDA receptors! Proven to work.;)