Leftism of this board [Archive]

Comrade BNS

9th February 2004, 21:16

hi all,
I am a new user to this forum. However when i read the user agreement i was to say the least slightly disgusted! The left is supposed to be reformist, tolerant and open minded. Yet in this user agreement I saw not just hints of, but strong and malicious streaks of radical conservatism. I was saying to a peer yesterday that I suppor the left, not only because I agree with its policies, but because it is tolerant of all beliefs and ideologies. I believe that the famous quote by the french liberalist thinker Voltaire is Quite appropriate here. and i sincerely hope that this board is not as conservative as the aforementioned user agreement.

"I despise what you are saying, but will defend to the death your right to say it"

This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are an right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back! Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we at do not actively monitor the contents of and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB or any entity associated with this BB. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is rascist, anti-semitic, sexist, homophobic, knowingly false and/or defamatory, hateful, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB. Notes: 'National Bolsheviks' or other pseudo-leftist fascists are of course not welcome here! Known Nazis are not allowed to post here, no matter what they post. Also, hardcore Stalinists won't find many friends here. Stalinists members are free to post in all forums unless they show they are not able to have a polite and respectful debate here.

Comrade BNS

Edelweiss

9th February 2004, 21:38

How is to not allow Nazis, racists and other scum "radical conservative"? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a leftist board, not some political freak show! You are very right, we are NOT tolerant towards racism, we are NOT tolerant towards sexism, we are NOT tolerant towards anti-semitism, and we are NOT tolerant towards homophobia. No, Nazi scum is not allowed to post here. What's your problem? You are obviesly confounding leftism with some perverted form of bourgeois liberalism.

Commie Girl

9th February 2004, 23:36

:o OMG....why would this upset a leftist? This site is more tolerant than most others....if you are a leftist, we welcome your ideas, otherwise, Fuck off

redstar2000

10th February 2004, 04:00

Voltaire, as I recall reading, lived only a few kilometers from the Swiss border...and was very quick to make the move when his views aroused official displeasure.

Thus you mustn't take his rhetoric too seriously; he was not about to defend his own views "to the death"...much less anyone else's.

:redstar2000:

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

Zanzibar

10th February 2004, 05:16

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 9 2004, 10:16 PM
hi all,
I am a new user to this forum. However when i read the user agreement i was to say the least slightly disgusted! The left is supposed to be reformist, tolerant and open minded.
Reformist? The left is revolutionary and militant! This is a forum of communists! If you don't like that go away Menshevik! I make no attempt to tolerate my oppressor, and I shall not apologize for it!

Pingu

10th February 2004, 06:57

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 12:36 AM
:o OMG....why would this upset a leftist? This site is more tolerant than most others....if you are a leftist, we welcome your ideas, otherwise, Fuck off
why send him away if he is a right winger?
maybe we can convince him to be leftish :)
he will see that we stand for equality and for a good world, with no racism

because to shoot all right winger in a revolution is quite a job :lol:

Marxist in Nebraska

10th February 2004, 17:03

Zanzibar,

Why did you post that photo? Did you have a reason, or did you just want to disturb me?

<--- Cat lover

Fknugly

10th February 2004, 17:48

What a Deal!!!!

Elect Marx

10th February 2004, 18:18

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 10 2004, 06:03 PM
Zanzibar,

Why did you post that photo? Did you have a reason, or did you just want to disturb me?

<--- Cat lover
I should hope he had a good reason, otherwise I suggest we form a group. Cat lovers against Zanzibar. Though I agree with the previous post.

As for the thread itself, Malte said it all, "This is a leftist board." This is not yet another place to "tolerate" oppressive veiws. Don't listen to Fox News' lies that "liberals are radical leftists," as this is just their ploy to ignore and diminish public understanding of the left wing. Because when a liberal is displayed as a "crazy radical" or a "traitor," any true leftist is made to look absurd.

Voice of the Revolution

10th February 2004, 18:58

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 06:16 AM
Reformist? The left is revolutionary and militant! This is a forum of communists! If you don't like that go away Menshevik! I make no attempt to tolerate my oppressor, and I shall not apologize for it!
Oh come on! This is not a place for Koba wannabe's! The left is revolutionary and militant? Yeah....che-lives has inspired more revolutionary uprisings than I can count....This is not a forum just for communists, socialists and other forms of left-wingers are all present.

Menshevik!? Yes Menshevik...the "Men of the Majority". All right then "Bolshevik", you can join your comrades in the minority. Bolshevism was the darkest chapter in the history of communism, and is one that certainly does not need condoning.

Your opresser? Oh you poor little proletariat. Here you are on your computer, on your internet, paying every minute what constitues a sweatshop labourer's day's wages. Do not claim to be something you are not.

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr

10th February 2004, 19:25

Originally posted by Voice of the Revolution+Feb 10 2004, 03:58 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Voice of the Revolution @ Feb 10 2004, 03:58 PM)
[email protected] 10 2004, 06:16 AM
Reformist? The left is revolutionary and militant! This is a forum of communists! If you don't like that go away Menshevik! I make no attempt to tolerate my oppressor, and I shall not apologize for it!
Oh come on! This is not a place for Koba wannabe's! The left is revolutionary and militant? Yeah....che-lives has inspired more revolutionary uprisings than I can count....This is not a forum just for communists, socialists and other forms of left-wingers are all present.

Menshevik!? Yes Menshevik...the "Men of the Majority". All right then "Bolshevik", you can join your comrades in the minority. Bolshevism was the darkest chapter in the history of communism, and is one that certainly does not need condoning.

Your opresser? Oh you poor little proletariat. Here you are on your computer, on your internet, paying every minute what constitues a sweatshop labourer's day's wages. Do not claim to be something you are not. [/b]
Thats your opinion. I happen to see Bolshevism as the greatest thing since the Das Kapital. If you really don't sympathize with the working class, then perhaps you should join the Republican Party with the rest of Bush's cronies?

Marxist in Nebraska

10th February 2004, 19:56

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 02:25 PM
Thats your opinion. I happen to see Bolshevism as the greatest thing since the Das Kapital. If you really don't sympathize with the working class, then perhaps you should join the Republican Party with the rest of Bush's cronies?
MM,

Since when did criticism or rejection of the Bolsheviks make one a Republican? Do you have good reason to say what you said, or is that just a lame personal attack?

Where did you see a lack of "sympath[y] with the working class"?

Lardlad95

10th February 2004, 20:54

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 9 2004, 10:16 PM
hi all,
I am a new user to this forum. However when i read the user agreement i was to say the least slightly disgusted! The left is supposed to be reformist, tolerant and open minded. Yet in this user agreement I saw not just hints of, but strong and malicious streaks of radical conservatism. I was saying to a peer yesterday that I suppor the left, not only because I agree with its policies, but because it is tolerant of all beliefs and ideologies. I believe that the famous quote by the french liberalist thinker Voltaire is Quite appropriate here. and i sincerely hope that this board is not as conservative as the aforementioned user agreement.

"I despise what you are saying, but will defend to the death your right to say it"

This Community is open to all leftists. Right-wingers are not welcome, but tolerated within the 'Opposing Ideologies' forum. Right-wing messages will be ignored or deleted in all other forums and the author will be banned. If you are an right-winger or convinced capitalist and can accept this rule, good. If not, fuck off and never come back! Considering the real-time nature of this bulletin board, it is impossible for us to review messages or confirm the validity of information posted. Please remember that we at do not actively monitor the contents of and are not responsible for any messages posted. We do not vouch for or warrant the accuracy, completeness or usefulness of any message, and are not responsible for the contents of any message. The messages express the views of the author of the message, not necessarily the views of this BB or any entity associated with this BB. You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this BB to post any material which is rascist, anti-semitic, sexist, homophobic, knowingly false and/or defamatory, hateful, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violative of any law. You agree not to post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or by this BB. Notes: 'National Bolsheviks' or other pseudo-leftist fascists are of course not welcome here! Known Nazis are not allowed to post here, no matter what they post. Also, hardcore Stalinists won't find many friends here. Stalinists members are free to post in all forums unless they show they are not able to have a polite and respectful debate here.

Comrade BNS
Alot of us are open to new ideas..provided you can defend them. We welcome debate, however we don't want extremely offensive material posted. nazis have a tendency to do this

Comrade BNS

10th February 2004, 21:05

Originally posted by "Malte"
How is to not allow Nazis, racists and other scum "radical conservative"? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a leftist board, not some political freak show! You are very right, we are NOT tolerant towards racism, we are NOT tolerant towards sexism, we are NOT tolerant towards anti-semitism, and we are NOT tolerant towards homophobia. No, Nazi scum is not allowed to post here. What's your problem? You are obviesly confounding leftism with some perverted form of bourgeois liberalism.

I am well aware that this is a leftist board which is exactly why I joined. However by not even tolerating other's views you are propogating conservatism, right wing politics. Let me ask you what is it exactly the Nazis do? is perhaps to silence and not tolerate groups such as semites, and other ethnicities? so if this is true explain to me how being a leftist and not tolerating people with right wing views is any different to what the nazis do? let me say your position is completely indefensible, and you will probably come back by saying som such nationalist inspired garbage like "the left is just" or " we fight for the people", if this is true, accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you, and that is their right. It however is not your right at all to silence other groups who have opposing views to your own! Sherman Austin was jailed for having opposing views to the government, and this is disgusting and completely unjust. Therefore, how would his actions be viewed if he was to supress views opposing his own?

My point is, it's not what you believe, but "how" you believe it that determines your status as conservative or tolerant. and I will say now, I in no way whatsoever support Nazis, Racists or any other right wing groups in the slightest, I am merely saying, they are human, and deserve the same voice as is granted to everyone. To silence them and supress their voice would be no better then Nazi champions, Stalin or Mao.

Comrade BNS

guerrillaradio

10th February 2004, 21:18

Any "leftist" who tolerates racism and homophobia is an imbecile.

I refuse to be tolerant of intolerance.

Edelweiss

10th February 2004, 21:33

Originally posted by Comrade BNS+Feb 11 2004, 12:05 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Comrade BNS @ Feb 11 2004, 12:05 AM)
"Malte"
How is to not allow Nazis, racists and other scum "radical conservative"? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a leftist board, not some political freak show! You are very right, we are NOT tolerant towards racism, we are NOT tolerant towards sexism, we are NOT tolerant towards anti-semitism, and we are NOT tolerant towards homophobia. No, Nazi scum is not allowed to post here. What's your problem? You are obviesly confounding leftism with some perverted form of bourgeois liberalism.

I am well aware that this is a leftist board which is exactly why I joined. However by not even tolerating other's views you are propogating conservatism, right wing politics. Let me ask you what is it exactly the Nazis do? is perhaps to silence and not tolerate groups such as semites, and other ethnicities? so if this is true explain to me how being a leftist and not tolerating people with right wing views is any different to what the nazis do? let me say your position is completely indefensible, and you will probably come back by saying som such nationalist inspired garbage like "the left is just" or " we fight for the people", if this is true, accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you, and that is their right. It however is not your right at all to silence other groups who have opposing views to your own! Sherman Austin was jailed for having opposing views to the government, and this is disgusting and completely unjust. Therefore, how would his actions be viewed if he was to supress views opposing his own?

My point is, it's not what you believe, but "how" you believe it that determines your status as conservative or tolerant. and I will say now, I in no way whatsoever support Nazis, Racists or any other right wing groups in the slightest, I am merely saying, they are human, and deserve the same voice as is granted to everyone. To silence them and supress their voice would be no better then Nazi champions, Stalin or Mao.

Comrade BNS [/b]
Oh dear, this is so lame...I have heard that so many times before, mainly from the nazi pigs themself. As I assumed before, your view is a rather perverted understanding if bourgeois liberalism. Just stop that HIPPIE SHIT! :P
I have said things like this many times before here, and I'll say it again: Che-Lives has a strict 'no-platform policy' towards Nazis andother fascists. I think I have all right to silence Nazis, please do as all a favor and stop telling us BULLSHIT about tolerating Nazis!!! WE DON'T HAVE TO TOLERATE NAZIS! Not here, and not in real live. We don't have to tolerate, no, we have to fight them BY ALL MEANS NECCESARY! We have all right to silence them, I think I have even the right to give them a good kick in the ass. Someone who's advocating violence against everyone who he feels suprior, someone who's glorfying genocide, someone who's advocating or even committing murder of people who doesn't fit in their world view, HAS NO RIGHTS. Every year numerous people are murdered by the Nazi scum, all because of their sick ideology.
Your view is VERY offending, especially if you accuse us of "conservatism" because we do not allow nazis here. This is just...STUPID. Fascism is not an opnion - it's a crime.

guerrillaradio

10th February 2004, 21:39

There comes a point where it's not about what you say, but what you do. I'm personally a little tired of watching leftists divide themselves into smaller and more elitist cliques online.

Edelweiss

10th February 2004, 21:50

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 12:39 AM
There comes a point where it's not about what you say, but what you do. I'm personally a little tired of watching leftists divide themselves into smaller and more elitist cliques online.
What? I don't get what you mean, please explain...

New Tolerance

10th February 2004, 22:08

Well, this is a leftist forum and we are suppose to be tolerant. However, you have to draw a line somewhere, what if the right-wingers started asking to become administrators (because they are very capable, this would mean equal opportunity)? Should we be so tolerant as to let them take the post from where they can ban all of the leftists and turn this into a right-wing website called "Hitler-Lives"?

My point is, it's not that we are intolerant, there doesn't seems to be any other way to keep right-wingers from rampaging all across this place. If you have any suggestions that offers an alternative policy, then please tell us.

Lardlad95

11th February 2004, 05:12

Originally posted by Malte+Feb 10 2004, 10:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Malte @ Feb 10 2004, 10:33 PM)
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 11 2004, 12:05 AM

"Malte"
How is to not allow Nazis, racists and other scum "radical conservative"? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a leftist board, not some political freak show! You are very right, we are NOT tolerant towards racism, we are NOT tolerant towards sexism, we are NOT tolerant towards anti-semitism, and we are NOT tolerant towards homophobia. No, Nazi scum is not allowed to post here. What's your problem? You are obviesly confounding leftism with some perverted form of bourgeois liberalism.

I am well aware that this is a leftist board which is exactly why I joined. However by not even tolerating other's views you are propogating conservatism, right wing politics. Let me ask you what is it exactly the Nazis do? is perhaps to silence and not tolerate groups such as semites, and other ethnicities? so if this is true explain to me how being a leftist and not tolerating people with right wing views is any different to what the nazis do? let me say your position is completely indefensible, and you will probably come back by saying som such nationalist inspired garbage like "the left is just" or " we fight for the people", if this is true, accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you, and that is their right. It however is not your right at all to silence other groups who have opposing views to your own! Sherman Austin was jailed for having opposing views to the government, and this is disgusting and completely unjust. Therefore, how would his actions be viewed if he was to supress views opposing his own?

My point is, it's not what you believe, but "how" you believe it that determines your status as conservative or tolerant. and I will say now, I in no way whatsoever support Nazis, Racists or any other right wing groups in the slightest, I am merely saying, they are human, and deserve the same voice as is granted to everyone. To silence them and supress their voice would be no better then Nazi champions, Stalin or Mao.

Comrade BNS
Oh dear, this is so lame...I have heard that so many times before, mainly from the nazi pigs themself. As I assumed before, your view is a rather perverted understanding if bourgeois liberalism. Just stop that HIPPIE SHIT! :P
I have said things like this many times before here, and I'll say it again: Che-Lives has a strict 'no-platform policy' towards Nazis andother fascists. I think I have all right to silence Nazis, please do as all a favor and stop telling us BULLSHIT about tolerating Nazis!!! WE DON'T HAVE TO TOLERATE NAZIS! Not here, and not in real live. We don't have to tolerate, no, we have to fight them BY ALL MEANS NECCESARY! We have all right to silence them, I think I have even the right to give them a good kick in the ass. Someone who's advocating violence against everyone who he feels suprior, someone who's glorfying genocide, someone who's advocating or even committing murder of people who doesn't fit in their world view, HAS NO RIGHTS. Every year numerous people are murdered by the Nazi scum, all because of their sick ideology.
Your view is VERY offending, especially if you accuse us of "conservatism" because we do not allow nazis here. This is just...STUPID. Fascism is not an opnion - it's a crime. [/b]
Hey malte...don't be so hard on the kid..ease up a little...oh wait I"m disagreeing with malte...you aren't going to ban me are you? Cuz Redstar put me up to it

Zanzibar

11th February 2004, 06:17

Originally posted by Marxist in [email protected] 10 2004, 06:03 PM
Zanzibar,

Why did you post that photo? Did you have a reason, or did you just want to disturb me?

<--- Cat lover
symbolism! Non violent leftism is a dead cat!

Comrade BNS

11th February 2004, 08:27

There comes a point where it's not about what you say, but what you do. I'm personally a little tired of watching leftists divide themselves into smaller and more elitist cliques online.

thank you for summarising my views!

and also thank you to "New Tolerance" for understanding where i am coming from.

Malte all i can say to you is that you cannot defend your position by using jingoistic, egocentric, eliteist jargan to try and win a "war of words" with me. Unlike many of the other poor leftists you may have confounded with your self inspired academic jargan, I mean really, bourgeois liberalism has extremely little if anything to do with what i am arguing. If you want to disscuss the ethics of bourgeois liberalism, and its impact on postmodern liberal secularism then i would be more then happy to do so. but for the moment please recognise that what i am saying is that even if you do not agree with someone, it is a crime most hanest to deny them their right of free speech! i find the nazi code dispicable, and absolutely loathsome. however, who the fuck made me God to decide which views are acceptable and "right" and "just", and which should be supressed at all costs. to do so would merely imitate and mimic the sinister states and state appartuss' you seem to deplore! why the double standards? and yes the left can be extremely conservative aswell! I wonder, would you be so willing to defend the rights of right wing proletariat? or is leftism so selective and eliteist now that it only supports its own interests?

Comrade BNS

P.S in reply to New Tolerance, what could you do to make this bored more tolerant? change the user agreement for starters!

Invader Zim

11th February 2004, 09:33

Sorry but what a heap of rubbish, the rightwing has 99.9% of the Internet which they control, leftists who profess their opinions are usually banned from right wing forums. This is a leftist forum a small corner of the net for leftists, Malte as I am sure you are now aware wants to keep it that way. If Right wingers come here they are spamming trolls, and in every forum trolls and spammers are banned in practically every forum I can think of, why should che-lives have to put up with that crap?

RedAnarchist

11th February 2004, 09:35

i concure totally with Enigma.

We need to keep this little niche of the net cappie-free, or else it will just turn into a mass of shit and lies

Edelweiss

11th February 2004, 13:32

Originally posted by Lardlad95+Feb 11 2004, 08:12 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lardlad95 @ Feb 11 2004, 08:12 AM)
Originally posted by Malte+Feb 10 2004, 10:33 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Malte @ Feb 10 2004, 10:33 PM)
Comrade [email protected] 11 2004, 12:05 AM

"Malte"
How is to not allow Nazis, racists and other scum "radical conservative"? What the fuck are you talking about? This is a leftist board, not some political freak show! You are very right, we are NOT tolerant towards racism, we are NOT tolerant towards sexism, we are NOT tolerant towards anti-semitism, and we are NOT tolerant towards homophobia. No, Nazi scum is not allowed to post here. What's your problem? You are obviesly confounding leftism with some perverted form of bourgeois liberalism.

I am well aware that this is a leftist board which is exactly why I joined. However by not even tolerating other's views you are propogating conservatism, right wing politics. Let me ask you what is it exactly the Nazis do? is perhaps to silence and not tolerate groups such as semites, and other ethnicities? so if this is true explain to me how being a leftist and not tolerating people with right wing views is any different to what the nazis do? let me say your position is completely indefensible, and you will probably come back by saying som such nationalist inspired garbage like "the left is just" or " we fight for the people", if this is true, accept the fact that not everyone is going to agree with you, and that is their right. It however is not your right at all to silence other groups who have opposing views to your own! Sherman Austin was jailed for having opposing views to the government, and this is disgusting and completely unjust. Therefore, how would his actions be viewed if he was to supress views opposing his own?

My point is, it's not what you believe, but "how" you believe it that determines your status as conservative or tolerant. and I will say now, I in no way whatsoever support Nazis, Racists or any other right wing groups in the slightest, I am merely saying, they are human, and deserve the same voice as is granted to everyone. To silence them and supress their voice would be no better then Nazi champions, Stalin or Mao.

Comrade BNS
Oh dear, this is so lame...I have heard that so many times before, mainly from the nazi pigs themself. As I assumed before, your view is a rather perverted understanding if bourgeois liberalism. Just stop that HIPPIE SHIT! :P
I have said things like this many times before here, and I'll say it again: Che-Lives has a strict 'no-platform policy' towards Nazis andother fascists. I think I have all right to silence Nazis, please do as all a favor and stop telling us BULLSHIT about tolerating Nazis!!! WE DON'T HAVE TO TOLERATE NAZIS! Not here, and not in real live. We don't have to tolerate, no, we have to fight them BY ALL MEANS NECCESARY! We have all right to silence them, I think I have even the right to give them a good kick in the ass. Someone who's advocating violence against everyone who he feels suprior, someone who's glorfying genocide, someone who's advocating or even committing murder of people who doesn't fit in their world view, HAS NO RIGHTS. Every year numerous people are murdered by the Nazi scum, all because of their sick ideology.
Your view is VERY offending, especially if you accuse us of "conservatism" because we do not allow nazis here. This is just...STUPID. Fascism is not an opnion - it's a crime. [/b]
Hey malte...don't be so hard on the kid..ease up a little...oh wait I"m disagreeing with malte...you aren't going to ban me are you? Cuz Redstar put me up to it [/b]
Sorry, but I just could get mad when someone is suggesting to tolerate nazis, this is just plain insanity, and unveliveable naiveness.
I hope you are joking lardlad, I have never banned anyone by my self just because I disagree with him. Please explain what you mean with your comment...

Edelweiss

11th February 2004, 13:50

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 11 2004, 11:27 AM

There comes a point where it's not about what you say, but what you do. I'm personally a little tired of watching leftists divide themselves into smaller and more elitist cliques online.

thank you for summarising my views!

and also thank you to "New Tolerance" for understanding where i am coming from.

Malte all i can say to you is that you cannot defend your position by using jingoistic, egocentric, eliteist jargan to try and win a "war of words" with me. Unlike many of the other poor leftists you may have confounded with your self inspired academic jargan, I mean really, bourgeois liberalism has extremely little if anything to do with what i am arguing. If you want to disscuss the ethics of bourgeois liberalism, and its impact on postmodern liberal secularism then i would be more then happy to do so. but for the moment please recognise that what i am saying is that even if you do not agree with someone, it is a crime most hanest to deny them their right of free speech! i find the nazi code dispicable, and absolutely loathsome. however, who the fuck made me God to decide which views are acceptable and "right" and "just", and which should be supressed at all costs. to do so would merely imitate and mimic the sinister states and state appartuss' you seem to deplore! why the double standards? and yes the left can be extremely conservative aswell! I wonder, would you be so willing to defend the rights of right wing proletariat? or is leftism so selective and eliteist now that it only supports its own interests?

Comrade BNS

P.S in reply to New Tolerance, what could you do to make this bored more tolerant? change the user agreement for starters!
BNS, still your comment is very foolish and, as said above, very very naive.
I really don't understand how granting Nazis access to a leftist board (not a state!) has anything to do with free speech. Please explain how is it conservative to not allow our worst enemy to spread their propaganda here. Please explain who it is going together with leftitsm to "tolerate" an ideology which is responsable for millions of deaths in history, and still for duzends of deaths every fucking year. I think THAT is giving me the right to decide that this view should have no place in today's world, and that is giving me the right to do ANYTHING to prevent that another fascist state can ever happen again, and it's giving me the right to not only not to tolerate the nazis, but to acticely fight them. You can't seriously ask me, what is giving me the right to not accept Nazi ideology, can you? Because that would be the most stupid question I have ever been asked. As a leftist and anti-fascist, I'm extremely offended and disgusted by you call for tolerance for Nazis. Thus you are making yourself a accomplices of the Nazi scum. Already 70 years ago, people where calling for free speech, tolerance and indulge for the Nazis, and we all do know what the result was, don't we?

P.S.: How is your view not some strange form of bourgeois liberalism? I think all the rubbish you are talking about "tolerance" for nazis is driven exactly by that, proof me wrong!

guerrillaradio

11th February 2004, 13:51

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 11 2004, 09:27 AM

There comes a point where it's not about what you say, but what you do. I'm personally a little tired of watching leftists divide themselves into smaller and more elitist cliques online.

thank you for summarising my views!
I wasn't agreeing with you at all.

It was a general point, that leftists are incapable of showing unity over anything. It probably doesn't belong in this thread...

And the first sentence was trying to say you can "debate" with Nazis as long as you like, but you will not get anywhere. Ditto the vast majority of capitalists. In terms of activism, debate is a pointless and often damaging pasttime, which is why I believe that any leftist should have the strength and courage in their convictions to act rather than talk. What I'm saying is, quit talking to Nazis and fuckin get rid of them.

Marxist in Nebraska

11th February 2004, 17:38

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 01:17 AM
symbolism! Non violent leftism is a dead cat!
Is that a joke? If not, you will have to explain that for me...

Comrade BNS

11th February 2004, 21:02

BNS, still your comment is very foolish and, as said above, very very naive.
I really don't understand how granting Nazis access to a leftist board (not a state!) has anything to do with free speech. Please explain how is it conservative to not allow our worst enemy to spread their propaganda here. Please explain who it is going together with leftitsm to "tolerate" an ideology which is responsable for millions of deaths in history, and still for duzends of deaths every fucking year. I think THAT is giving me the right to decide that this view should have no place in today's world, and that is giving me the right to do ANYTHING to prevent that another fascist state can ever happen again, and it's giving me the right to not only not to tolerate the nazis, but to acticely fight them. You can't seriously ask me, what is giving me the right to not accept Nazi ideology, can you? Because that would be the most stupid question I have ever been asked. As a leftist and anti-fascist, I'm extremely offended and disgusted by you call for tolerance for Nazis. Thus you are making yourself a accomplices of the Nazi scum. Already 70 years ago, people where calling for free speech, tolerance and indulge for the Nazis, and we all do know what the result was, don't we?

P.S.: How is your view not some strange form of bourgeois liberalism? I think all the rubbish you are talking about "tolerance" for nazis is driven exactly by that, proof me wrong!

you explain to me how your idea of state where there is no tolerance for opposing views is any different to a Nazi state, where there is no tolerance for their opposing views? the only diference is that you have leftist ideals where as their's are right. it's still opression, which is what you fail to see. If you don't agree with Nazis then by all means don't support them, but let them have their marches and their putsch's etc etc... we (leftists) demand the same right from opressive governments and state systems worldwide, so why should we then turn around and deny it to the right wing? what you continually fail to see even though i have blatantly highlighted it in every single one of my posts so far is that your view is utterly and entirely hippocritical!!!!!!!!!!!!! how can you not see this?

Malte: "We Demand free speech, and the right to practice leftist policies etc..
But nazis can fuck off, they don't deserve free speech. they should be repressed, locked up and silenced..."

is that not what you are saying?

Sorry but what a heap of rubbish, the rightwing has 99.9% of the Internet which they control, leftists who profess their opinions are usually banned from right wing forums. This is a leftist forum a small corner of the net for leftists, Malte as I am sure you are now aware wants to keep it that way. If Right wingers come here they are spamming trolls, and in every forum trolls and spammers are banned in practically every forum I can think of, why should che-lives have to put up with that crap?

and the point i am trying to make here, is not whether or not nazis etc... should have free reign over this board, it is the fact that this, a leftist board refuses to be tolerant of opposing views...and besides what makes you think this board is the centre of the universe? you are automatically assuming that if this board was opened up completely that there would be millions of "bourgeois liberalists" lining up to come and post their views here...they have probably never heard of this site, and probably don't care about it (which to a certain extent is a shame).....and if I am completely wrong and their do emerge hoards of "bourgeois liberalists" to come and post here, then they are truly sad people with nothing better to do then employ simplistic and jingoistic agitating tactics.

one final point i would like to make is this, as a tolerant leftist, I defend my position by extoling the virtues of it, by making it known the positive effects of being where i am, and believing what i do. However Malte, you seem to defend your position by attacking me and my beliefs. Please extoll upon me the virtues of your position. I think you are probably old enough to move beyond childish bickering...

Comrade BNS

Lardlad95

11th February 2004, 21:10

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:32 PM

Sorry, but I just could get mad when someone is suggesting to tolerate nazis, this is just plain insanity, and unveliveable naiveness.
I hope you are joking lardlad, I have never banned anyone by my self just because I disagree with him. Please explain what you mean with your comment...
Oh I was just joking, cuz the kid was making it seem like we were really intolerant of other ideas on this board. So I made a joke about how u ban people for disagreing with you.

I know you don't, I was just kidding is all

guerrillaradio

11th February 2004, 21:12

OK you've been here 2 days, I've been here 2 years. Stalinists/Nazis/capitalists etc would roam free given the chance. About 18 months ago every thread on this forum ended up being about Stalin before the Stalinists were caged.

Edelweiss

11th February 2004, 21:18

Edelweiss

11th February 2004, 21:19

Originally posted by Lardlad95+Feb 12 2004, 12:10 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lardlad95 @ Feb 12 2004, 12:10 AM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 02:32 PM

Sorry, but I just could get mad when someone is suggesting to tolerate nazis, this is just plain insanity, and unveliveable naiveness.
I hope you are joking lardlad, I have never banned anyone by my self just because I disagree with him. Please explain what you mean with your comment...
Oh I was just joking, cuz the kid was making it seem like we were really intolerant of other ideas on this board. So I made a joke about how u ban people for disagreing with you.

I know you don't, I was just kidding is all [/b]
ok, now I get it...stupid me! :P

Comrade BNS

13th February 2004, 04:53

I think I have made my point very clear, but you obveisly fail to see where you are wrong, so I'll give it up now. How can you compare fascist views to leftist/socialist views at all? By this comparisons YOU reveal yourself as a conservative! Your view is VERY dangerous, because it's making VICTIMS OUT OF CULPRITS! You are seeing the Nazi scum as like to they see themself: as poor, oppresed and hunted victims (of the Jewish world conspiracy).

Malte I love your complete lack of logic.....because I compare, therefore I am? i don't get it?!? how did u make that connection, that by comparing and using an analogy to make a point, I am automatically a Nazi?

please stop with the illogical, illconceived personal attacks....why not point out flaws you may see with my tolerant, leftist, reformist stand? I have pointed out the flaws I see in your ideology......and may I say that by having left wing policies you can still be conservative.....right wing and left wing are not necessarily indicators of conservatism.....take for example the late Feminist movement in Australia (i am australian btw)....they had very left reformist policies, but like the position you hold, refused out right and utterly to acept anyone elses view bar their own, even from other left parties....so even though they were left in terms of reformist policy, they were ultra-conservative in terms of tolerance, party policy sharing etc...

What I am saying to you is this, you have very left wing policies, but are extremely conservative when it comes to tolernace and acceptance of other's ideas...

and please take a moment to think of leftist movements throughout history...did their repression and supression stop the movement? No of course it didn't, it had the reverse effect of making them stronger, by building their grass roots and underground support.....so you plan to remove nazis by repressing them and supressing their voice? why not do to them what I have suggested you do to me, extoll upon them and the people the virtues of the left, and find logical flaws in the nazi's stand? this would work far more effectively, and would be a far more mature solution then a simple slaging match coupled with a good healthy dose of one-upmanship, which proves nothing...

try being a little more tolerant for once and a while, you might find your life will open up to amazing people, opportunities and ideas

Comrade BNS

redstar2000

13th February 2004, 07:03

...why not point out flaws you may see with my tolerant, leftist, reformist stand?

The major flaw is that it's completely disconnected from the real world.

"Tolerance", for example, doesn't exist in the sense that you are using the word...except possibly inside your own head.

In the real world, there is always something that any given person is "intolerant" of.

What's your stand on burning women for witchcraft, for example. Would you like to have a nice intellectual discussion of the matter before they light the pyre?

How about cannibalism? Or paedophilia? Or, well, Nazism?

Where do you "draw the line" and say "fuck discussion, let's kill these bastards and do it now!"?

Nowhere? How about when the SS kicks your door in and is dragging your sorry ass to the torture chamber or the death camp.

Still want to have a discussion then?

Do you want to wait until those things actually happen and, in the meantime, "point out the flaws" in the "arguments" of the scum?

Oh, Herr Scheisskopf, don't you know that "racial science" has been completely discredited by modern biology?

I'm sure he will be really impressed by your "irresistible logic".

You seem to be under the impression that controversial views exist due to human ingenuity (or perversity) when, in fact, they reflect irreconcilable class conflict.

When you suggest that "leftists" should "tolerate" rightists, what you're really saying is that the disagreements are trivial and don't reflect real material conflict.

Likewise, your sanguine indifference to repression of the left is hardly echoed by history. Repression sometimes fails...but often succeeds.

If it's worked for our class enemies, why shouldn't it work for us? And why shouldn't we at least try?

There's nothing much "fresh" I can say about "reformism"...it's always a scam -- a way of deluding others or deluding yourself.

If you wish to play at giving capitalism "a human face"...go right ahead. All I can do is warn you that the face is going to turn out a lot uglier than you expect...and that you would be well-advised to avoid mirrors.

Your effort to construct a "left-right axis" based on the supposition that left = tolerant and right = intolerant is doomed.

That's not how the world is...or ought to be, for that matter.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

guerrillaradio

13th February 2004, 14:14

Originally posted by [email protected] 13 2004, 08:03 AM

...why not point out flaws you may see with my tolerant, leftist, reformist stand?

The major flaw is that it's completely disconnected from the real world.

"Tolerance", for example, doesn't exist in the sense that you are using the word...except possibly inside your own head.

In the real world, there is always something that any given person is "intolerant" of.

What's your stand on burning women for witchcraft, for example. Would you like to have a nice intellectual discussion of the matter before they light the pyre?

How about cannibalism? Or paedophilia? Or, well, Nazism?

Where do you "draw the line" and say "fuck discussion, let's kill these bastards and do it now!"?

Nowhere? How about when the SS kicks your door in and is dragging your sorry ass to the torture chamber or the death camp.

Still want to have a discussion then?

Do you want to wait until those things actually happen and, in the meantime, "point out the flaws" in the "arguments" of the scum?

Oh, Herr Scheisskopf, don't you know that "racial science" has been completely discredited by modern biology?

I'm sure he will be really impressed by your "irresistible logic".

You seem to be under the impression that controversial views exist due to human ingenuity (or perversity) when, in fact, they reflect irreconcilable class conflict.

When you suggest that "leftists" should "tolerate" rightists, what you're really saying is that the disagreements are trivial and don't reflect real material conflict.

Likewise, your sanguine indifference to repression of the left is hardly echoed by history. Repression sometimes fails...but often succeeds.

If it's worked for our class enemies, why shouldn't it work for us? And why shouldn't we at least try?

There's nothing much "fresh" I can say about "reformism"...it's always a scam -- a way of deluding others or deluding yourself.

If you wish to play at giving capitalism "a human face"...go right ahead. All I can do is warn you that the face is going to turn out a lot uglier than you expect...and that you would be well-advised to avoid mirrors.

Your effort to construct a "left-right axis" based on the supposition that left = tolerant and right = intolerant is doomed.

That's not how the world is...or ought to be, for that matter.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas
Oh man, I forgot how much of a pleasure it is reading your posts.

Comrade BNS

13th February 2004, 22:54

redstar you seem to be saying that we are under immeadiate threat from rightist groups... I mean really they are certainly entitled to their views, but society as a whole does not tolerate the extremeist actions of the groups you have mentioned... sure the SS could probably kick down my door and torture me, but do you think society would stand by and watch it happen?

yes there are problems with the world in which we live, but don't completely discredit the humanity of our society, it still exists, and still functions...

"Tolerance", for example, doesn't exist in the sense that you are using the word...except possibly inside your own head

and yes tolerance is a real and tangible concept and practice, I'm sorry that Intolerance reings in your ideology.

Comrade BNS

Zanzibar

13th February 2004, 23:56

Originally posted by Voice of the [email protected] 10 2004, 07:58 PM

Your opresser? Oh you poor little proletariat. Here you are on your computer, on your internet, paying every minute what constitues a sweatshop labourer's day's wages. Do not claim to be something you are not.
My father was a construction worker, my mum was a nurse(before she was forced to quit - she was diagnosed with MS). I am, and grew up, working poor. Both my parents passed on before I was 16. I've been fending for myself since then. My families income ranged from 40k a year to less then 10k a year. Mainly the latter. Even Less now. I could be thrown out month to month, depending if I can scrape together enough money to pay my bills. Rent, hydro, water, food, and internet. I'm also attempting to get through university.

Now while I would be the first to admit a level of globabl exploitation exist, there are poor in North America. Do not claim to know someone you have never met.

Speak for yourself.

Zanzibar

14th February 2004, 00:01

Oh, and non-violent leftism worked real great for Allende didn't it? The youth called on him to arm the people. He did not.

Yes, that worked real well for Allende didn't it?

dark fairy

14th February 2004, 05:33

ok my eyes are tired of reading so goddamn much this is my take on this shit right here lo que pasa es que se estan ahogando en un baso de agua... {your drowing in a cup of water} the shit is that this person {b-whatever} might be leftie but he {for some reason} is looking at this through the eyes of capitalist, nazis whatever the fuck... and i know how that feels because for some reason i have that thing of seeing two sides to everything for some stupid reason and yeah i am comie at heart but i have read through some things ahhh! everyone has their way of approching shit and for some reason this fool is looking at us and our views and asking if it is right for nazis to show their idias the way we do and quite frakly i feel that is folly because we can't demostrate but nazis can have their parties ever so often and the pigs or anyone can't tell them anything because this is a free country i mean correct me if im wrong {i im pretty sure i am} but i haven't heard of a communist day or something of that sort one ... two if there was something like that we wouldn't be hanning some black guy for a tree because we think that black people aren't human so yeah that's my take on this and im pretty sure a lot of people are going to think this is bullshit but that's just how i feel and this is a tolerant place and i don't think i've said anything that would imply and protrey me as a nazi that i am not... :) because ok i'll just shut up now you know what i mean :)

Comrade BNS

14th February 2004, 07:47

Oh, and non-violent leftism worked real great for Allende didn't it? The youth called on him to arm the people. He did not.

Yes, that worked real well for Allende didn't it?

How about using an example that is relevant....Allende was in power during a time of extreme reactionism from both the left and right worldwide....we however are not in the same situation, and for the most part (not totaly) we are reactionary free...

Comrade BNS

redstar2000

14th February 2004, 10:15

redstar you seem to be saying that we are under immediate threat from rightist groups...

No, I said "do you want to wait until" the threat is immediate? Do you want to be "tolerant" until you hear the boots coming up the stairs to pay you a less-than-friendly visit?

I mean really they are certainly entitled to their views, but society as a whole does not tolerate the extremist actions of the groups you have mentioned...

Societies have "tolerated" the extremist actions...why should that not someday be the case again? Especially if you "tolerate" them while they are still weak.

I watched an experiment in a lab once. A completely sealed room was created, complete with ordinary household furnishings. A lit cigarette was dropped in an armchair and the door was closed. For an hour or so, nothing much happened...the cigarette just smoldered on the chair. Then, a small flame appeared, but it spread very slowly, gradually growing larger and consuming the chair. Still no big deal. The room began to fill with smoke. What could not be seen with the human eye was the rising temperature of the air in the room. The fire didn't spread from the chair to the rug and from the rug to the wall, etc. When the air temperature rose to 500 degrees or so, the entire room exploded into flames. Everything flammable began to burn at once.

The product of "tolerance" for a tiny and "non-threatening" annoyance.

Reactionaries are certainly not "entitled" to their views...because of what those views lead to!

yes there are problems with the world in which we live, but don't completely discredit the humanity of our society, it still exists, and still functions...

Why not? It "functions"? So does the AIDS virus.

Humanity? It either works people to death or kills them outright.

Problems with the world? Yep. Starting with capitalism.

That's not the "only" problem...but right now, it's the "biggie".

It exists? If we're lucky -- and really good at this revolution stuff -- it will be history before the end of this century.

:redstar2000:

The Redstar2000 Papers (http://www.redstar2000papers.vze.com)
A site about communist ideas

Zanzibar

14th February 2004, 21:10

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 14 2004, 08:47 AM

Oh, and non-violent leftism worked real great for Allende didn't it? The youth called on him to arm the people. He did not.

Yes, that worked real well for Allende didn't it?

How about using an example that is relevant....Allende was in power during a time of extreme reactionism from both the left and right worldwide....we however are not in the same situation, and for the most part (not totaly) we are reactionary free...

Comrade BNS
And you think America is now prepared to let a communist government form?!

Hah, quit using che as an avatar. It's hypocritical.

Jimmie Higgins

15th February 2004, 02:55

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 13 2004, 05:53 AM

I think I have made my point very clear, but you obveisly fail to see where you are wrong, so I'll give it up now. How can you compare fascist views to leftist/socialist views at all? By this comparisons YOU reveal yourself as a conservative! Your view is VERY dangerous, because it's making VICTIMS OUT OF CULPRITS! You are seeing the Nazi scum as like to they see themself: as poor, oppresed and hunted victims (of the Jewish world conspiracy).

Malte I love your complete lack of logic.....because I compare, therefore I am? i don't get it?!? how did u make that connection, that by comparing and using an analogy to make a point, I am automatically a Nazi?

please stop with the illogical, illconceived personal attacks....why not point out flaws you may see with my tolerant, leftist, reformist stand? I have pointed out the flaws I see in your ideology......and may I say that by having left wing policies you can still be conservative.....right wing and left wing are not necessarily indicators of conservatism.....take for example the late Feminist movement in Australia (i am australian btw)....they had very left reformist policies, but like the position you hold, refused out right and utterly to acept anyone elses view bar their own, even from other left parties....so even though they were left in terms of reformist policy, they were ultra-conservative in terms of tolerance, party policy sharing etc...

What I am saying to you is this, you have very left wing policies, but are extremely conservative when it comes to tolernace and acceptance of other's ideas...

and please take a moment to think of leftist movements throughout history...did their repression and supression stop the movement? No of course it didn't, it had the reverse effect of making them stronger, by building their grass roots and underground support.....so you plan to remove nazis by repressing them and supressing their voice? why not do to them what I have suggested you do to me, extoll upon them and the people the virtues of the left, and find logical flaws in the nazi's stand? this would work far more effectively, and would be a far more mature solution then a simple slaging match coupled with a good healthy dose of one-upmanship, which proves nothing...

try being a little more tolerant for once and a while, you might find your life will open up to amazing people, opportunities and ideas

Comrade BNS
The problem is that ideas don't live in an accademic vaccume that have no bearing on the real world and so you can not apply tolernece blankly in all places at all times. Are the bourgoise-post WWII governments of Germany equally as bad as nazi germany because it is illegal to be a nazi or have a swastica? So what about tolerence of people who are not directly advocating violence or genocide. Take the reconstruction after the US civil war: people argued for tolerence for the slave-owning ex-ruling class of the south during reconstruction and look what happened... instead of the plantations being sold off to pay for education and housing and jobs for blacks, radical reconstruction whithered and jim-crow laws set in. This tolerance cost african americans 100+ years of further opression.

If you are on strike and have a picket line you must be intolerent of scabs even though they are just regular people like you trying to survive and make a buck because if you let the scabs cross the picket line, then your strike is completely impotent and the boss won't need to meet your demands or take you back and then he can exploit the scabs worse than he exploited you... so it is to your benifit as well as the scabs (in the long run) to keep that picket up and prevent the scabs from crossing.

Being a communist is all about intolerance exept is is intolerence of opression whereas the intolerence of Nazis and white supremicists and the right wing is the intolerence of opressed people... it is a world of difference.