'Coming out' as a lefty

[Publiusaurus]

Having only come into my Leftist beliefs recently I'm not yet used to discussing my political views with others, and the few people I have discussed it with (my Husband, a close friend and my mum) have not reacted particularly warmly to the idea that I'm a Socialist. It hasn't been hostile exactly but they have acted a little bit as though I started quoting David Icke at them. Is it to be expected? Do you get used to it?

I'd be interested in reading other accounts of this kind of 'discrimination' happening (or not happening) from other lefties, as well as different methods of deflecting/dealing with this.

[Atsumari]

Which is more ridiculous, the coming out as an atheist or coming out as a leftist?
Obvious Troll/10

[Rafiq]

I'd be interested in reading other accounts of this kind of 'discrimination' happening (or not happening) from other lefties, as well as different methods of deflecting/dealing with this.

The last thing we need is to turn being a lefitst into a category of identity politics. My god, this is ridiculous! Those who push identity politics are now discriminated against too, but to recognize this "discrimination" requires one to have already been a "leftist". It's entirely paradoxical. Embrace the "discrimination". If you're not able to defend your views publicly, then keep them to yourself. There's nothing that entitles you to not be "discriminated" against for your views, people don't have a right to conceit. The underlying point is that being a Leftist isn't some kind of innate identity which we demand others tolerate. We shouldn't want to be leftists (as this entails a specific political identity confined by definite conditions), we should want to change the world.

[Asero]

"Mom, dad, I'm a Communist."

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Someone disagreeing with you does not equate to discrimination. There are places where being found out as a communist can mean a one way ticket to a government interrogation room, however the UK is not one of them..

[Rafiq]

The more flak you get, the better. What the hell would it mean to be a Communist if it didn't scare people? If, in any meaningful sense, Communists weren't discriminated against by the existing order, it would suggest that they aren't really threats to the existing order.

[Vogel]

While i agree with that last part Rafiq, i really dont want to scare people :o

[Futility Personified]

Whilst Rafiq is right, as ever, red baiting does happen and if it happens to you it is hardly pleasant. There's a difference between having a debate where you can defend your views and a jeering contest. And in a historical sense, it would be unfair to forget blacklisting.

[Lily Briscoe]

The idea that the negative reactions someone in places like the UK or US in 2015 receives for describing themselves as a 'communist' is representative of how big of a threat communism is to the existing order is pretty absurd. I think it's the complete opposite, really, and is more akin to the sort of reaction someone would receive for describing themselves as a member of a tiny, batshit insane religious cult.

I distinctly remember the first time I heard someone say they were a communist. I was sixteen-years-old, at a house party (oddly enough), and my response - once I realized that she wasn't actually joking, which I initially thought she must certainly be - was to laugh in the girl's face and say, with complete conviction, "THERE ARE NO COMMUNISTS ANYMORE!" (and this is in spite of being from a family of social democrats who are, by American standards, kooky wingnuts). Communism isn't a threat in the west in 2015, it's a joke, and communists aren't perceived as dangerous subversives but as nutty weirdos.

[Lily Briscoe]

Or at best, the political equivalent of nerds who take their cosplay/historical reenactment hobby way too seriously.

[Црвена]

The idea that the negative reactions someone in places like the UK or US in 2015 receives for describing themselves as a 'communist' is representative of how big of a threat communism is to the existing order is pretty absurd. I think it's the complete opposite, really, and is more akin to the sort of reaction someone would receive for describing themselves as a member of a tiny, batshit insane religious cult.

I distinctly remember the first time I heard someone say they were a communist. I was sixteen-years-old, at a house party (oddly enough), and my response - once I realized that she wasn't actually joking, which I initially thought she must certainly be - was to laugh in the girl's face and say, with complete conviction, "THERE ARE NO COMMUNISTS ANYMORE!" (and this is in spite of being from a family of social democrats who are, by American standards, kooky wingnuts). Communism isn't a threat in the west in 2015, it's a joke, and communists aren't perceived as dangerous subversives but as nutty weirdos.

Exactly. I feel like communists are way overestimating ourselves - no one's scared of us anymore. And as scary as it can feel to tell your family and people you know that your belief system is vastly different from theirs, particularly when they have strong views, we just can't draw a comparison between this and coming out as LGBT or something of the sort. Communists are not structurally oppressed for holding their views, and there is no such thing as "communophobia"; homophobia and transphobia, however, are very real and awful things.

[Atsumari]

I am surprised no one pointed out the David Icke paet

[Rafiq]

Communism isn't a threat in the west in 2015, it's a joke, and communists aren't perceived as dangerous subversives but as nutty weirdos.

Something which doesn't presently exist (in the form of a mass movement) can't be a threat to anything, that is obvious. None the less the fact that it does threaten people, it does strike at certain political sensitivities beyond pretenses to "victimization" (A family of Russian emigres) means something. The fact that people are aversed to the idea of Communism, to the bone doesn't mean Communism is powerful, but that it could be - or in other words, that it strikes at the very edifice of the foundations of the existing order.

What are the problems people generally have with Nazis today? There is a growing trend, a pathology which posits that there would be nothing wrong with Hitler had the holocaust and the extermination of Slavs not occurred. Nazism, and racism only strikes at the core at the sentimental heart of the liberal because it makes them feel insecure, and uneasy about their own projected universe. It is a violent realization that the foundations of so-called anti-racism which is of course formally a pre-condition to be taken politically seriously, are very vulnerable. But the idea of violent social revolution, of destroying the existing order, the foundations of private property - this is more horrific to the Liberal for what it is than all of the Nazi atrocities combined. It's a problem of legitimacy - it's what differentiates looking at the barbarism and horror of Leopold II as a consequence of of the turbulent forces of life, and looking at Stalin's terror as the most grotesque, sickening intrusion upon the natural order of things - evil at its finest. Many bourgeois historians have a tendency even to look at the old Bolsheviks and the Red terror in an even more negative light than Stalinism, because it was more politically violent, more grotesque in that it represented the apocalyptic change rather than a protracted defense of that change.

The real joke is thinking that the aesthetic of Communism, that the creative re-organization of ruling ideology through the medium of Communist rhetoric, constitutes "Communism in 2015". Communism isn't a threat because it doesn't exist. At the same time, this very possibility of coming into existence is a threat, and remains one. The ghosts of our past heroes still haunt the world today, and you're a damned idiot if you don't see it.

[Rafiq]

Exactly. I feel like communists are way overestimating ourselves - no one's scared of us anymore. And as scary as it can feel to tell your family and people you know that your belief system is vastly different from theirs.

Okay, but what can Communism be if not the, as Marx put it, ruthless criticism of society today? What is Communism if not taking a side on precisely issues which are sensitive to the belief systems of others? Communism challenges the "belief" systems of others at every corner and at every which way. You can be gay and spare your parents the sacred right to property, loyalty to the nation, even of power in general. What is a mere flame to hell itself?

If you're not scaring people, you're not presenting them Communism for what it is. Of course, all vague pretenses to oppression are nonsense. We are Communists because we want to fight oppression, we aren't communists because we're already oppressed by merit of being Communists. If the root of oppression was being a Communist, the solution then follows that one renounce Communism.

[Lily Briscoe]

If you're not scaring people, you're not presenting them Communism for what it isI'm sure you're absolutely terrifying to people everywhere, Rafiq.

God this forum got so embarrassing.

[emmanuel]

Seems to me that you're saying that it's a surprise that in a society which by and large despises socialism people are surprised to have someone openly support socialism. Furthermore, this is apparently a problem for you, that your opponents are opponents.

If by dealing with this you mean stopping such reactions that's not really possible. On the other hand if you are willing to have proper discussions with people and they with you then I see no issue.

[Publiusaurus]

Thank you to those who actually acknowledged any of what I said.

I'm sorry if my benching of this issue as one of discrimination and identity offended anyone; as someone who has actually been discriminated against I probably should have known better and maybe that is downplaying actual discrimination. I was merely using language that everyone is already familiar with to convey my point that it gets really fucking annoying having friends and family (who don't magically disappear or become accepting happy hippy types when you read the Communist Manifesto and find truth in it) rolling their eyes at me as if I've joined a cult. Again I'm sorry I phrased my comment that way - it was stupid.

My reason for coming here and posting this was not to gain sympathy or to find out if there's some way of silencing people who disagree with my political views it was to get some advice from a bunch of people who might be more familiar with the issues that I raised - "Will I get used to the eye rolling", "Do people stop doing this" "Will I face actual discrimination if I mention this at my work." ACTUAL things that a human being might worry about in their everyday life.

If you shamed me or mocked me for asking a bunch of supposedly likeminded individuals if they had any advice then fuck you. No wonder we're having a discussion on a internet forum about how "No one should be scared of communism because it's dead" when that's the reception you get from your comrades. Fuck you.

[Quail]

I think this thread might be better placed in Mutual Aid & DIY. Moved.

[Rafiq]

I'm sure you're absolutely terrifying to people everywhere, Rafiq.


Yes, well the difference is that I don't go about broadcasting my views to everyone, and in the rare event that I do - no, absolutely not I'm not going to be presenting Communism for what it is. How could you? You draw idiotic conclusions from my post, and then you have the audacity to arrogantly put yourself in a position to talk down to me? Like who the fuck are you to be embarrassed, Briscoe?

[Kill all the fetuses!]

I am not following your logic here Rafiq. You firstly say "What the hell would it mean to be a Communist if it didn't scare people?", then you add "If you're not scaring people, you're not presenting them Communism for what it is." and I get that you are implying that being a Communist must mean scaring people and that's how Communist ought to be presented. But then you ask "How could you [present Communist for what it is]?".

So it either follows that it doesn't mean shit to be a Communist if it doesn't scare people and since you can't really present Communism for what it is, i.e. you can]t scare people, then it doesn't mean shit to be a Communist. Either this or I just don't get your point.

[Counterculturalist]

If we put aside the conflation of political disagreement with oppression or discrimination (which, hopefully, wasn't the OP's intention) the question does have merit, at least to some.

In my own experience, admitting to being a communist (or, without using the word, admitting to wanting to abolish capital, social classes, and the state) leads to awkward and unpleasant experiences, ranging from being ridiculed to being hated. You get used to it, though. But it can be difficult for many to get over the confrontational attitude people will take. Obviously this is not on a par with real discrimination, but it can have a real-world chilling effect that keeps certain ideas out of the general conversation.

Like Rafiq says, you don't have to shout your opinions from the rooftop at all times. But there will be times when you're getting to know someone and you'll want to be upfront about your convictions. At other times, someone will be saying or doing something so stupid or reprehensible that not intervening is out of the question, even if it leads to you revealing more than you want to. And, obviously, just getting involved as an activist kind of gives away your posistion.

As someone who struggles with a lack of confindence and social awkwardness, I have to admit that expressing my opinions has been difficult. It's ultimately rewarding though. If you can get people to rethink some of their most basic assumptions, it's worth it.

In the end, as trite as this seems, the only way to get used to it is to just do it. The more you experience people's disapproval, the less of a big deal it seems like.

[Sewer Socialist]

Have you attended the Communist pride parade on May 1st? :grin:

Okay, I have actual advice for Publiusaurus.

Everyone has been indoctrinated about what to think about communism; "good in theory, but bad in practice," "totalitarian nightmare," "capitalism isn't perfect, but it's the best we've got," "Marxism only makes sense in the 19th century era of robber-barons," etc. Every time you talk to an uninformed peer about it, you'll get pretty much the same shit. You shouldn't hide it, but yes, everyone has the same ideas about Marxism, and you can expect to run the same gauntlet of liberal ideology every time.

I would advise you to instead figure out what groups are active in your area. I know little about Marxism in Northern England, but there must be conferences, demonstrations, and the like at least in the London area, if not closer. Comrades on the board from the area could probably help you out with that. You can learn more with like-minded comrades, organize, agitate, etc. You can keep talking to friends and family about it, but you're unlikely to organize a new party amongst them. Some might come along when they see action on your behalf. Maybe this is just the vestige of anarchist in me, but action is a much better persuader than ideas. Seeing it's a real movement makes a huge difference.

People can be harsh here, sometimes.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Thank you to those who actually acknowledged any of what I said.

I'm sorry if my benching of this issue as one of discrimination and identity offended anyone; as someone who has actually been discriminated against I probably should have known better and maybe that is downplaying actual discrimination. I was merely using language that everyone is already familiar with to convey my point that it gets really fucking annoying having friends and family (who don't magically disappear or become accepting happy hippy types when you read the Communist Manifesto and find truth in it) rolling their eyes at me as if I've joined a cult. Again I'm sorry I phrased my comment that way - it was stupid.

My reason for coming here and posting this was not to gain sympathy or to find out if there's some way of silencing people who disagree with my political views it was to get some advice from a bunch of people who might be more familiar with the issues that I raised - "Will I get used to the eye rolling", "Do people stop doing this" "Will I face actual discrimination if I mention this at my work." ACTUAL things that a human being might worry about in their everyday life.

If you shamed me or mocked me for asking a bunch of supposedly likeminded individuals if they had any advice then fuck you. No wonder we're having a discussion on a internet forum about how "No one should be scared of communism because it's dead" when that's the reception you get from your comrades. Fuck you.

Everyone here is really desperate for attention on this forum that they absolutely hate posting on, just ignore it. Holding views that contradict the fundamental values our society is built on necessarily means you will always be at odds with it, there's no way around that. Either get good at arguing or just don't bring it up.

On the flip side if your family is getting irritated, that means they are at least listening to you. That's probably more than a lot of people can claim.

[Atsumari]

Okay, this is why I find you to be incredibly difficult to respect in regards to your current politics.
Your conception of communism as identity politics is quite ridiculous. Identity politics is largely about trying to convince the privileged majority to accept the discriminated minority. Communism on the other hand is pretty clear about its opposition towards capitalism and talks of class conflict and people eventually overthrowing the system. Being a communist means that your ideological mindset is against capitalism which also includes being against the way society views work. Will you be "discriminated?" Of course, the bourgeoisie does not take kindly to people whose societal views are about having their privilege and power destroyed. Will people roll their eyes? Yes, people whose views are part of the mainstream will always roll their eyes at fringed ideas. Will people for example not want to be friends with you or stop doing something with you? Talking from experience in high school, people who were especially apolitical tended to hate me, not because of my views, but because I was annoying and boring the hell out of them. Many of my good friends as it turned out were people who disliked my views greatly because we had no one else to talk to these things about. Of course, conflicting political views should not be about making friends, but I very much doubt your average person will discriminate against you because of your views by itself.
And one final thing, looking from inspiration from CPUSA, as awful as it was at times, if you were a party member, you were expected to be tough and confrontation against people who want to make sure your ideas never see the light of day. McCarthyism did not destroy CPUSA, the Cult of Personality speech did.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I am surprised no one pointed out the David Icke paet

Obviously if someone quotes Icke you know forthwith they need hospitalisation.

[Rafiq]

Either this or I just don't get your point.

No, the point isn't that this is how it should be presented, but that's how it would irrevocably be presented if you were giving them the whole story. Being a Communist doesn't mean scaring people, but in an epoch devoid of a mass movement, people would be horrified at the idea of Communism for what it really is. So it follows that if you're not scaring people, you're not presenting Communism for what it really is. That doesn't mean that scaring people requires particular effort, but that as a consequence of presenting Communism for what it is, it would scare people. It isn't particularly useful to do this at all, and as far as I'm concerned, presenting people the ideas of Communism at the get-go is nonsense. It is important to speak a language which ordinary people can understand. Communism, holistically as a historic force is unfathomable to a person not already invested into it.

[Publiusaurus]

Counterculturalist:
Thanks for discarding my framing of this issue as one of discrimination. It was foolish. Apologies again for that.

Yeah, I completely agree about ‘shouting your views from the rooftops’, that sort of thing really grates on me so I try to avoid it. It’s condescending to ram politics down your peers’ throats and it’s not fair to their own world view. It just alienates them. I only really pipe up when, like you say, someone is being a bullshitter or hateful or w/e.

I think you’re right though about it being rewarding in the long run though. I bet the confidence boost from getting someone to question what they think about something would cut my anxieties down to size!

I’ll try to take that on board I think. The more I face disapproval, the less scarey it will be.

Poor Taste:
No I haven’t. Maybe I should do something for May Day this year though.

Yes I have been thinking about that. If someone has been presented one view of the truth their whole life, I suppose they will be taken aback when someone presents a different world view to them. I think because I’m a little new to being a revolutionary socialist I have maybe been doubting myself – worrying that I am just spouting shit about Lizards and pyramids and conspiracy theorist stuff.

Definitely, I actually did attend a meeting of local socialists the other day and just being able to talk about ideas and different views and stuff was fun. I never really did expect to carry friends and family etc. with me, I was just letting them know that I would be doing something a bit different with myself now.

Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages:
I think you have a good point. That’s probably a good thing to take from criticism actually. If I’ve unintentionally offended or upset someone with talking about politics, then at least they’re thinking about it.

Atsumari:
Your respect makes no difference to me. I made a mistake in drawing a comparison between a lukewarm reception of my left-wing views and discrimination against an Identity I have since withdrawn the statement and apologized unreservedly. This says to me either that you have not read my previous post or that you have read it and ignored my apology. Either way I’m not interested in groveling for your approval of my beliefs, real or invented.

However, I think you are correct in saying that I should expect an amount of flak when discussing my views with non-comrades.

Thanks to you all for your opinions/advice! :D

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I think because I’m a little new to being a revolutionary socialist I have maybe been doubting myself – worrying that I am just spouting shit about Lizards and pyramids and conspiracy theorist stuff.


Those two have literally nothing whatsoever in common. Icke is just an anti-semite who, dosed up to the eyeballs on a bizarre mixture of heavy drugs, watched V one night in the late 1980's and had an epiphany and decided to delve into the realm of the occult hacks and cherry pick things to his liking.

The Biggest Secret is a hilarious book, but that is also it's only value; that of a joke and a delusional man attempt to present his insane sproutings as scholarly by referring to other works - works which are as insane as his own.

[consuming negativity]

if you don't think the ruling class is scared of what communists have to offer then you aren't paying attention.

the best way to "come out" as a communist, as i post every single time in these threads, is to avoid the label until you've already won the argument. logically, we are correct, so avoid bagged terminology and argue not using academic rhetoric but using the language that normal people use. most people are way farther to the left, especially in the working class, than they think that they are. they're extremely disillusioned with the shitty political game, it's just that they don't see any alternatives to it. communist morality is working class morality. work is not bad, working too much for shit pay is bad, and the majority of what we produce is actually garbage. politicians don't give a fuck, the middle class think they're better than us, and they're snotty pricks who keep getting pandered to by the politicians. every company is owned by just a few people and there is an illusion of choice with the majority of products in the majority of stores. this is what communists know. this is real life. it's the same fucking thing.

[Publiusaurus]

Sperm-Doll Setsuna:
My point is not that Communism and Icke-rubbish are alike. It's that when a person holds one belief and everybody around them holds another (including the media) they sometimes begin to doubt themselves. I was worried that I'd been duped.

Communer:
It's funny you should mention that. Someone I know was talking about how sick they are of politics, corruption, the economy etc. and that we should just 'knock it all down' and start again. I then asked if they were socialist (I'm very subtle), to which they shook there head and looked at me like a thought criminal. Maybe I should avoid the loaded language in future. Food for thought. Thanks.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

So, to make sure I'm not getting this wrong, you're no longer a Icke-nutter?

If so, good.

[Publiusaurus]

Haha, Jesus Christ no!
Jewish Babylonian conspiracy, wtf?

[Prospekt]

Communism to me means sharing, equality and liberty. These ideas shouldn't scare people but inspire them.