What's the Issue with Israel?

[Peachman2000]

I don't really understand the problem with Israel other than the obvious (Palestine conflicts, and Allowance of Nuclear Weapons). Every time I look up the problems with Israel, I end up on some Neo-Nazi site that talks about how terrible the Jews are. I don't care about what religion they are, but I want to know why Israeli policy is looked down upon by the left.

[Viktor89]

Ignore the antisemitic fuckfaces, and instead know the difference between anti-zionism and anti-semitism. The israeli state is of course criticized, just like we criticize all states, and occupations and imperialism. It is about being against the racism that the zionists uses to oppress the palestinians, to be against the enslavement and torture of the palestinians. Just like we hate what the nazis did in Poland in the ghettos, just like U.S troops did in Vietnam, like they did in Korea, etc, also we criticize and are sick by the same acts of war crimes and oppression committed by the israeli state. This has nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing, to do with race or religion, but is about anti-oppression, anti-slavery, anti-occupation, etc. Bourgeois states must fall.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Well, other than it being a bourgeois state, it's one still engaging in ethnic cleansing while turning a small piece of land into an open-air prison camp for Palestinians, and gleefully murdering any who resist.

[Asero]

Great Britain promoted Jewish settlement of Palestine to get rid of some of the Jewish diaspora's cosmopolitain characteristics. The people who advocated for the creation of a Jewish state were called Zionists, and people who support Israel and/or Israeli colonization are called Zionists. There is one problem with Israel colonizing Palestine, people already live there: the Palestinians.

Leftists aren't against Jews; we are against the blatant removal of the Palestinian people's right to self determination.

[Red Star Rising]

BASICALLY:

The zionists believe they have a religious connection to the land of Israel (which was known as Palestine beforehand). It was previously controlled by the Ottoman Empire, but the native populations (including both Jews and Arabs) were promised independence by European powers if they helped to bring down the Turkish Empire. Unfortunately, typically for the British Empire, they began setting up a Jewish homeland in Palestine at the same time and this caused cultural tensions between the Jewish immigrants (who were given all the best land) after the outbreak of WWII this got much worse for obvious reasons and after the holocaust became known of by Britain (who were at the time occupying Palestine) it became inevitable that a Jewish state was going to be set up. So the land was divided into a Israel (Jewish state) and Palestine in 1948 when the British pulled out and HORRENDOUS ethnic tension involving the Arab populations being displaced from Jewish areas.

This made pretty much all of Israel's neighbours angry and they declared war, unfortunately they didn't cooperate properly and got crushed by Israel who were supported by the US. This allowed Israel to annex Palestine and bring the whole area under their control. Israel then began setting up illegal settlements in Arab land and forcing the native populations out (many of whom now live in slums or refugee camps with no hope of escape from their predicament which inevitably leads to extremism) by destroying homes, stealing land, building a massive wall to blockade Palestine and doing virtually nothing about (or rather facilitating) the persecution of Arab populations in the West Bank and Gaza (which were originally meant to be Palestine).

Israel is looked down on by the left (and anyone with a moral conscience) because they are a land-grabbing, military nation state engaging in ethnic cleansing and terrorizing the people of Palestine. Especially in Gaza where operation cast lead and the recent bombing campaigns have caused the (preventable) deaths of AT LEAST 3,000 people. Israel is systematically trying to force Palestinians to lay down and cease to exist basically, and they are supported by most of the West.

Does that answer your question?

[Tim Cornelis]

BASICALLY:

The zionists believe they have a religious connection to the land of Israel

There's secular Zionism as well.

[cyu]

When people criticize US policy, it's like, yeah, what are you gonna do about it? Nuke us?

When people criticize Chinese policy, it's like, yeah, what are you gonna do about it? Exterminate the Chinese?

If current national borders remain unchanged forever (highly unlikely, but for the sake of argument, let's say that's so) then eventually criticizing Israeli policy will not automatically bring up fears of Nazi persecution. We might not see that in our lifetime though.

[nadya]

There are two kinds of Jews: one who labels Israel as socialist because of the kibbutzes and another who labels it capitalist. What do they have in common? They both hate Palestine who are free marketeers. Look at their wet markets and their tourist websites.

[parallax]

There is no issue with it.

[Alan OldStudent]

Hello Peachman.


I don't really understand the problem with Israel other than the obvious (Palestine conflicts, and Allowance of Nuclear Weapons). Every time I look up the problems with Israel, I end up on some Neo-Nazi site that talks about how terrible the Jews are. I don't care about what religion they are, but I want to know why Israeli policy is looked down upon by the left.

As Tim mentioned, there is the phenomenon of secular Zionism. That's what leftists oppose. This is a political movement that is less than 125 years old. It poses (falsely in my opinion) as a national liberation movement for Jews. This is in contradistinction to religious Zionism, which is not the same thing. You can read about religious Zionism here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_in_Judaism).

Religious Zionism is not about establishing or maintaining the State of Israel. Here is a link (http://ijsn.net/) to an organization of religious Jews opposed to political Zionism and here is another (http://www.nkusa.org/).

In my opinion, Israel is a death trap for Jews. The inhabitants of Palestine before Israel had been there for thousands of years. Many were descendants of the ancient Jewish inhabitants, although over the centuries some became Christians and many others Muslims. To create Israel, political Zionists forced these Palestinian inhabitants off their lands, partly through political and economic manipulation, but largely by military conquest.

The ideology justifying Israel as a state rests upon a myth and a theology. The myth is that antisemitism is qualitatively different from other forms of racism and that Jews can only be safe in a country that is (as Theodor Hertzel said) as Jewish as France is French.

However, about 50% of the Jewish inhabitants are agnostic or atheist. About 20% of the Israeli citizens are of Arab descent and not Jewish. These Arab Israelis have a much higher birthrate than the Jewish Israelis. About 6 million Jews live in Israel, a smaller population than the number of Jews outside of Israel. The population of Israel is about 8 million, and they exist in a sea of 420 million Arab souls in 22 neighboring countries.

To maintain its Zionist nature, Israel must deal with the so-called "Arab problem." To remain Jewish, especially in the face of differing birth rates between Jews and Arabs, Israel must either expel the Arabs or turn them into second-class citizens in their own land. Historically, Israel has taken both approaches. It sets up barricades around its constantly-expanding borders. It constantly expands those borders in the name of security. But no matter where it places its borders, it still has this "Arab problem." Even if it places its borders on the other side of Damascus, it STILL has this problem. The dynamics of Zionism declare that Israel must become more and more of a militarized garrison state. Its much-vaunted democracy becomes more and more of a sham.

Moreover, as you have observed, political Zionism hands the most vile anti Semites in Europe, America, and elsewhere a certain measure of respectability. These anti-Semitic scum use the crimes that Zionist Israel must commit as justification for its vile propaganda. As such, not only is Israel a death trap for its Jewish inhabitants, it hands a weapon to anti Semites elsewhere who then make life a misery for many Jews in Europe. These anti Semitic scum and far rightists get to say, "We're not anti Jewish. We're anti-Zionists." They then, not to subtlety, attribute Zionism's crime to the supposed nature of the Jew as untermensch.

Many leftists have a Jewish family background, including me. When leftist Jews in America or Europe oppose political Zionism, the charge of being a "self-hating Jew" is made. To those Zionists who seek to equate anti Semitism with anti Zionism, such leftist Jews are the ultimate shmucks.

There are scattered reports in the American media about how Jewish and Muslim Europeans are cooperating in the fight against the twin horrors of anti Semitism and islamophobia. It is in the best interests of all right-minded workers to oppose both anti Semitism and islamophobia, and we need to recognize that political Zionism fosters both these evils.

The historic enemies of Jews are extreme right wingers, bigots, ultrasectarian Christians, racists, anticommunists, and fascists. The historic allies of Jews are civil libertarians, communists, socialists, humanists, secularists, and so on. Zionism has the strong historic tendency to ally itself with the historic enemies of Jews against the historic allies of Jews.

If you're opposed to theocracy, you have to oppose a Zionist Israel. If you oppose ethnic purification campaigns, you must oppose a Zionist Israel. If you are opposed to religious and nationalist bigotry, you must oppose political Zionism. If you oppose anti Jewish bigotry and racism, you must oppose political Zionism.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent
The unexamined life is not worth living—Socrates
Gracias a la vida, que me ha dado tanto—Violeta Parra

[bricolage]

Religious Zionism is not about establishing or maintaining the State of Israel. Here is a link (http://ijsn.net/) to an organization of religious Jews opposed to political Zionism and here is another (http://www.nkusa.org/).
Those are two pretty different groups, mainly because IJAN is not specifically religious and opposes Israel/Zionism on moral/political grounds, whereas Neturei Karta are completely Orthodox and opposes Israel on entirely religious grounds. The fact that NK mention things like human rights in Palestine is just a publicity stunt, for them it's all about religious objection. And it should also be mentioned that NK are in many way wankers, aside from the obvious problems a communist/socialist would have with the way ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities are structured, they've done shit like go to a Holocaust revisionism conference in Iran and are even shunned by hardcore anti-Zionist Hasidic groups like Satmar.

And within Haredi and Hasidic Judaism it's not quite so simple, Chabad are very pro-Israel, a sect like Bobov aren't officially anything but if you go to their neighbourhoods you'll see plenty of pro-Israel stuff. In any case there has definitely been a religious revival of sorts in Israel recently (for example the fact that something like rebuilding the Temple is now getting mainstream and not fringe discussion). There has also been for a bit longer an obvious religious revival amongst the Palestinian people and I definitely think these two trends are related.

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that while you are right to argue against the line that all Zionism is religious (and by default that what is going on in Palestine is overwhelmingly a religious conflict - of course it's not), I'd also disagree strongly with the argument that there is no religious movement at all within Israel and current mainstream Zionism. Both exist side by side.

[Ocean Seal]

So you mention the conflict with the Palestinians and wonder why the left looks down on Israel? Are you seriously that dense or did you come here for attention?

[Peachman2000]

So you mention the conflict with the Palestinians and wonder why the left looks down on Israel? Are you seriously that dense or did you come here for attention?

Maybe I worded it incorrectly, I should have asked if there's were other reasons why the left looks down on Israel.

[Alan OldStudent]

Hi Ocean Seal,

You said this to the OP, Peachman:

So you mention the conflict with the Palestinians and wonder why the left looks down on Israel? Are you seriously that dense or did you come here for attention?
I do not think Peachman came here seeking attention. Peachman apparently is new to this group, and from his/her question, I suspect he/she is somewhat new to socialism and is trying to learn and come to some conclusions. It's not helpful to label someone as "dense" because they are unclear where they stand on an issue. That does not encourage critical thinking.

http://alanoldstudent.nfshost.com/general_images/Dingbats/divide4.gif

Hello Bricolage:

You state:

....Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that while you are right to argue against the line that all Zionism is religious (and by default that what is going on in Palestine is overwhelmingly a religious conflict - of course it's not), I'd also disagree strongly with the argument that there is no religious movement at all within Israel and current mainstream Zionism. Both exist side by side.

While I appreciate the many points you made to back up the above assertion, I did not mean to imply there is no religious movement within Israel or current mainstream Zionism.

Thanks for your critique of my analysis. I think it was helpful.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent
The unexamined life is not worth living—Socrates
Gracias a la vida, que me ha dado tanto—Violeta Parra

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Are you seriously that dense or did you come here for attention?
Is that an appropriate tone to take in Learning?

[Sasha]

There are two kinds of Jews: one who labels Israel as socialist because of the kibbutzes and another who labels it capitalist. What do they have in common? They both hate Palestine who are free marketeers. Look at their wet markets and their tourist websites.


umh? exuse me, i think you better explain what the heck you mean with this post and i advise you to do so quickly...

[bricolage]

Hello Bricolage:

You state:


While I appreciate the many points you made to back up the above assertion, I did not mean to imply there is no religious movement within Israel or current mainstream Zionism.

Thanks for your critique of my analysis. I think it was helpful.
Yeah no problem. I think it's important to discuss this stuff but I think underlying the pushing forward of a group like Neturei Karta is a sort of Orientalist/essentialist idea of who Jews are. So NK represent 'authentic' Jews because they dress in Haredi clothing and Israelis are not 'real' Jews because they drink and wear shorts or whatever. I'm not saying at all that this is what you were doing but of all of the reasons that the Israeli state and Israeli society can be harshly criticised, not being 'real' Jews seems the weakest of them all.

[Q]

The book Israelis and Palestinians: Conflict and resolution (http://www.amazon.com/Israelis-Palestinians-Resolution-Mosh%C3%A9-Machover-ebook/dp/B007UPDGRC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424571523&sr=8-1&keywords=israelis+and+palestinians+resolution+and+ conflict) by Israeli communist Moshé Machover was a genuine eye-opener for me. In these texts, written between 1966 and 2010 he sets out quite clearly what Israel is: A colonisation project along the lines of the USA or Australia, which also seeked to exterminate the native population.

There are two main differences with this parallel though: In contrast to the US and Australia, Israel is based on the premise of being the "home country of the Jewish world nation". This is why for example Netanyahu recently made the call (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/189748) for European Jews to "come home" to Israel.

Secondly, the Palestinians aren't easily exterminated. Their national awareness only came into being due to Israel's existence. More to the point: Palestinians are part of a wider Arab nation and there is simply no hope of Israel exterminating all Arabs.

So, Israel has had to rely on outside imperialist patrons from the very outset, first the British and since the 1956 Suez crisis the US imperialists. For imperialism Israel in turn plays a key strategic role in being the 'watch dog' in the region, preventing Arab national awareness developing into a united nation-state.

Machover sketches the resolution along these very lines: The working class across the Arab world needs to resolve the national question and form a union that would encompass all of the Arab peninsula and Egypt and Sudan (which have historically and culturally been part of the Arab East) with an open hand to the national minorities (the Kurds, the South-Sudanese and the Hebrews) to become a self-determinant part of this union. Failing to prevent Arab unification, Israel would quickly lose imperial support and the Zionist regime could be toppled, ending the nightmare of this colonial regime.

This is a very brief summary, I do strongly recommend the book.

[human strike]

Basically, it's all one big parking dispute...

[#FF0000]

If you oppose anti Jewish bigotry and racism, you must oppose political Zionism.

I can't agree with this. I don't think it's right to say that anti-semitism is fueled by the actions of the Israeli government or Zionism. This angle inadvertently gives anti-semites the benefit of the doubt and makes it sound as if anti-semitism is little more than just inarticulate anti-zionism. If this were the case, then would you be able to call out Islamophobes like Ayaan Hirsi Ali when her views are a result of her direct experiences with Islamists?

[#FF0000]

Basically, it's all one big parking dispute...

"Excuse me that's my spot. I parked there once, 2,000 years ago"

[G4b3n]

Israel is an apartheid state. Meaning that it actively and consciously pursues policies intended to subjugate a marginalized racial group. Discrimination is most persistent in housing, where Palestinians under Israeli occupations are forced into some of the most appalling living conditions you can imagine in a so called "democracy". Palestinians that dare wonder into areas intended only for Israelis, especially bourgeois areas, are subject to arbitrary arrest and are often murdered at times.

As for the the anti-semitism coming into play, you just have to watch the rhetoric of whoever is speaking on the subject. Typically, if you hear phrases such as "the Jews" when they are referring to Israeli state policy then you know that you are in the wrong place and Neo-Hitlerite world conspiracies are sure to follow.

[Alan OldStudent]

Yeah no problem. I think it's important to discuss this stuff but I think underlying the pushing forward of a group like Neturei Karta is a sort of Orientalist/essentialist idea of who Jews are. So NK represent 'authentic' Jews because they dress in Haredi clothing and Israelis are not 'real' Jews because they drink and wear shorts or whatever. I'm not saying at all that this is what you were doing but of all of the reasons that the Israeli state and Israeli society can be harshly criticised, not being 'real' Jews seems the weakest of them all.

With respect, Bricolage, that's not the point I was trying to make.

My point was that it is possible to be an anti-Zionist Jew, and indeed, many who identify as Jews are anti-Zionist. I happen to be an atheist, and I was never bar-mitzvah'd. I went to Catholic schools. Nevertheless, I feel some affinity with the Jewishness in my mother's family. I couldn't define who is a Jew except by referring to culture or religion, and as I said I'm not a believer. However, I suspect Hitler would have considered me a suitable candidate for the ovens on several counts, including my Marxist political outlook and my mother and grandmother's ethnic heritage, which was mixed.
**********

I can't agree with this. I don't think it's right to say that anti-semitism is fueled by the actions of the Israeli government or Zionism. This angle inadvertently gives anti-semites the benefit of the doubt and makes it sound as if anti-semitism is little more than just inarticulate anti-zionism. If this were the case, then would you be able to call out Islamophobes like Ayaan Hirsi Ali when her views are a result of her direct experiences with Islamists?

Hello FF000,

I don't believe that the actions of the Israeli government causes the anti antisemitism of racists. But the war crimes that Israel commit today make fighting antisemitism more difficult for the same reason that the crimes of Stalin make fighting anticommunism more difficult. Israel's Zionist policies hand a propaganda advantage to fascist scum.

I definitely call out Ms Hirsi Ali for her Islamophobia and consider her views bigoted, quite independently of any injustices so-called Islamists committed against her.

Regards,

Alan OldStudent
The unexamined life is not worth living—Socrates
Gracias a la vida, que me ha dado tanto—Violeta Parra

[cyu]

There are some places where an ethnic minority has power (Afrikaners in the old South Africa, ethnic Chinese in parts of southeast Asia, "ethnic" Tutsis in the old Rwanda, Sunnis in the old Iraq) and some places where minorities are persecuted.

Depending on whether you're in a ruling minority, persecuted minority, ruling majority, or powerless majority, it can have many different effects on your behavior, beliefs, and outlook. These are more determined by your "place" in the social power structure than the actual peculiarities of your ethnic, racial, or religious grouping - yet people often attribute thoughts and behaviors to your "race", religion, or surface culture, rather than to your position in the grand social structure.

[Lily Briscoe]

I don't really understand the problem with Israel other than the obvious (Palestine conflicts, and Allowance of Nuclear Weapons). Every time I look up the problems with Israel, I end up on some Neo-Nazi site that talks about how terrible the Jews are. I don't care about what religion they are, but I want to know why Israeli policy is looked down upon by the left.

It depends what you mean by 'the left', really. There are different groups that have different analyses and positions on Israel.

A lot of groups take issue with what you describe as "the obvious": human rights abuses, ethnic cleansing, expansionism/settlement building, the bulldozing of homes, the treatment of Palestinian protesters, etc. etc. etc. Certainly these are obvious things to take issue with. There is not-infrequently more to it than earnest humanitarian concern though, and the anti-Zionism of a lot of 'the left' is often tied up in "Anti-Imperialist" realpolitik that involves 'critical support' for groups like Hamas, or the amorphous 'Resistance', and concessions to Palestinian nationalism. Unsurprisingly this can result in some pretty sketchy views.

I have political background in some Jewish anti-Zionist projects, which--while often not having the best politics--had pretty sound motivations, so I'm hesitant to paint with too broad a brush here... But a think a lot of the Western left's preoccupation-verging-on-obsession with Israel is pretty suspicious and, at best, rooted in some pretty bad politics. Israel really isn't that special.

[#FF0000]

I have political background in some Jewish anti-Zionist projects, which--while often not having the best politics--had pretty sound motivations, so I'm hesitant to paint with too broad a brush here... But a think a lot of the Western left's preoccupation-verging-on-obsession with Israel is pretty suspicious and, at best, rooted in some pretty bad politics.

I dunno I think there's a lot of explanations for it. I think for a lot of Americans, the Israel-Palestine thing was sort of their inverse-Kronstadt-moment when they started seeing things in a different light -- the "good guys" turning out to be racist and genocidal, carrying out a policy of extreme discrimination or ethnic cleansing depending on how generous you want to be.

It's also one of those things where people can draw parallels to American history. I remember an otherwise totally apolitical friend talking to me about the issue in high school, saying something like reading about the Palestinians in the news seemed like hearing about the Trail of Tears while it was happening. I don't like historical analogies but that's how people I talked to tended to see it -- a country we were allied with carrying out the same atrocities we did a hundred or so years ago.

Americans are extremely self-centered in this way, I think. A lot of people here look at world events through the lens of American history. That's why I think so many people in America supported the IRA as well -- they saw the Irish struggle for independence from Britain as similar to the American struggle for independence.

[RedWorker]

My take on the issue:


A lot of pseudo-leftists, populists and others who label themselves as "anti-Zionists" have pretty shitty politics. Many are anti-Semites.
Israel is a bourgeois state run by capitalists who are in alliance with the capitalists of all nations to oppress the workers of all nations. It has well-entrenched institutional discrimination and far-right ideology and grassroot discrimination is growing. It commits enormous abuses of the basic rights of the people.
As a leftist I support secularism, and the separation of the state from any ethnicity, nation, or religion. But if a Jewish state is needed so that there is no discrimination of the Jewish people, then it can exist. It's not like capitalism is going to go away if a one-state solution is implemented, though it can have some advantages. Obviously, it would have to be debated whether a Jewish state is really needed, and it certainly isn't as needed as it was immediately after WW2.
In Palestine, discrimination and far-right groups also exist. There is probably a lot of anti-Semitism. The mainstream parties and mainstream ideology is shit. One ought to support the Palestinian people because they are the ones being oppressed, but this is disassociated from the ones who claim to represent Palestine.
The Jewish and Palestinian people ought to be siblings, and disassociate themselves from the actions of their "leaders".
Nationalism, xenophobia, etc., of both the Jewish and the Palestinian people must be opposed.

[Lily Briscoe]

I dunno I think there's a lot of explanations for it. I think for a lot of Americans, the Israel-Palestine thing was sort of their inverse-Kronstadt-moment when they started seeing things in a different light -- the "good guys" turning out to be racist and genocidal, carrying out a policy of extreme discrimination or ethnic cleansing depending on how generous you want to be.

It's also one of those things where people can draw parallels to American history. I remember an otherwise totally apolitical friend talking to me about the issue in high school, saying something like reading about the Palestinians in the news seemed like hearing about the Trail of Tears while it was happening. I don't like historical analogies but that's how people I talked to tended to see it -- a country we were allied with carrying out the same atrocities we did a hundred or so years ago.

The thing about this is that the United States is still carrying out violence on a scale that absolutely dwarfs that committed by the state of Israel; it isn't simply an historical thing. I mean, just to give a sense of perspective here, the number of immigrants who have been deported under the Obama administration is greater than the entire population of the Gaza Strip... And yet there is a definite tendency among a lot of, particularly liberal/leftish American, anti-Zionists to have this idea, explicitly or implicitly, that the United States is some moral authority that shouldn't be lending financial and military support to Israel; that 'we' shouldn't be funding 'them' and 'their' military. You're absolutely right that people have all kinds of motivations and different political developments that lead them to this view, and I'm not trying to imply that it is always, or even mostly, the product of some kind of cloaked bigotry or nefarious intentions or whatever. But the political conclusions that necessarily follow from it are really, really questionable.

It is questionable to me (and I don't mean "anti-Semitic", I just mean 'questionable') when Americans with no personal connection to the Israel/Palestine conflict - whose 'own' state is the most powerful on the planet, with the largest military, which is involved in brutalizing people all over the globe - make opposition to a state on the other side of the earth the center of their political focus/activity. Surely the point for socialists should be that the main enemy is at home (and for American workers, the main enemy at home isn't "The Israel Lobby" or 'dual citizens' with 'dubious' national allegiances, but the American ruling class and its state). Which certainly isn't to suggest that people shouldn't be 'opposed' to the state of Israel. But like I said, the state of Israel is really not that special.

[bricolage]

With respect, Bricolage, that's not the point I was trying to make.

My point was that it is possible to be an anti-Zionist Jew, and indeed, many who identify as Jews are anti-Zionist.
Yeah of course. However, what I was getting as is why, when people (in a general sense, not you in particular) are making this point, they are so eager to put forward a group like Neturei Karta as representative of anti-Zionist Jews when a) Neturei Karta are really shit and b) most anti-Zionist Jews don't have much in common with Neturei Karta? In a roundabout way I was trying to suggest that part of this has to do with stereotypes and assumptions of what a Jew looks like, how a Jew behaves, and so forth.

[John Lennin]

Israel is an apartheid state.
It is not.
The arab citizens of Israel (~20% of the population btw.) have equal rights.

[#FF0000]

It is not.
The arab citizens of Israel (~20% of the population btw.) have equal rights.

I agree that it's a mistake to compare Israel to other countries like this (because every country has its own special way of brutalizing its undesirables) but let's not be naive -- equal rights on paper don't automatically translate to equal rights in the real world. After all, look at what Jews who aren't white have to put up with in that country.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It is not.
The arab citizens of Israel (~20% of the population btw.) have equal rights.
Really? Do Arabs have a right of return just because a grandparent was an Arab? No? Then they don't have "equal rights".

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't really understand the problem with Israel other than the obvious (Palestine conflicts, and Allowance of Nuclear Weapons). Every time I look up the problems with Israel, I end up on some Neo-Nazi site that talks about how terrible the Jews are. I don't care about what religion they are, but I want to know why Israeli policy is looked down upon by the left.

Jews live there, I mean Zionists are there and I'm pretty sure their aliens bent on global domination

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

I don't really understand the problem with Israel other than the obvious (Palestine conflicts, and Allowance of Nuclear Weapons). Every time I look up the problems with Israel, I end up on some Neo-Nazi site that talks about how terrible the Jews are. I don't care about what religion they are, but I want to know why Israeli policy is looked down upon by the left.

Jews live there, I mean Zionists are there and I'm pretty sure their aliens bent on global domination but what would I know I'm just bear

But really though Israel is a society premised on structural racism, sexism and a variety of other bullshit let alone them picking on Palestine and so on

[Pancakes Rühle]

Ethnic cleansing is bad, mmkay.

[John Lennin]

Really? Do Arabs have a right of return just because a grandparent was an Arab? No? Then they don't have "equal rights".

As I said: CITIZENS OF ISRAEL have equal rights. Does your hypothetical person have an Israeli passport?

[Pancakes Rühle]

As I said: CITIZENS OF ISRAEL have equal rights. Does your hypothetical person have an Israeli passport?

There are Arabs with Israeli passports. 20.7% of the Israeli population are Arabs. Yes, they are treated vastly different than Jews. African-Israeli's are also subject to brutal racism.

Even further, non-Ashkenazi Jews are subject to discrimination.

You are obviously blinded by your reactionary views. How are you not restricted?

[Rafiq]

One is tempted to even question the notion of Jews as a systemic ethnic identity outside the pathology of anti-Semites (who are very real, mind you) considering systemic racism in Israel is nearly identical to that in Europe and the US in terms of designation of oppressed groups.

[cyu]

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israel-admits-ethiopian-women-were-given-birth-control-shots.premium-1.496519

A government official has acknowledged the practice of injecting women of Ethiopian origin with the long-acting contraceptive Depo-Provera.

an Educational Television program revealed the results of interviews with 35 Ethiopian immigrants. The women’s testimony could explain the almost 50-percent decline over the past 10 years in the birth rate of Israel’s Ethiopian community. the women were sometimes intimidated or threatened into taking the injection.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/eliseknutsen/2013/01/28/israel-foribly-injected-african-immigrant-women-with-birth-control/

If the following is to be believed, it's doesn't matter whether you are white, a Jew, a redhead, or a gamer, once you taste power, it's all going downhill:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/proof-plutocrats-unfit-t180387/index2.html

when they became leaders, participants succumbed to the corruptive effects of power. honest individuals were initially shielded from taking antisocial decisions – but, with time, even they slid down the slippery, corrupting slope of power.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

As I said: CITIZENS OF ISRAEL have equal rights. Does your hypothetical person have an Israeli passport?
As the granddaughter of a Jew, I have a right to return that I wouldn't have if I was the granddaughter of a Palestinian Arab. So clearly under Israeli law there are different categories of citizenship based on whether or not one is Jewish.

[G4b3n]

It is not.
The arab citizens of Israel (~20% of the population btw.) have equal rights.

Their being 20% of the population does make them any less marginalized and exploited.

There is literally de jure housing discrimination drawn from ethnic criteria; practices that have been banned in the U.S since the 1960s. Which is just insult to injury considering that this takes place on land expropriated from Palestinians to begin with.

If you are a Zionist, you are not a leftist. One cannot support the international working class and nationalist exploitation in one of its cruelest forms at the same time.

[DOOM]

And I was trying so hard to avoid this thread


Their being 20% of the population does make them any less marginalized and exploited.

There is literally de jure housing discrimination drawn from ethnic criteria; practices that have been banned in the U.S since the 1960s. Which is just insult to injury considering that this takes place on land expropriated from Palestinians to begin with.

If you are a Zionist, you are not a leftist. One cannot support the international working class and nationalist exploitation in one of its cruelest forms at the same time.

Being marginalized and exploited doesn't make you a victim of apartheid. (Hint: nations aren't exploited; workers are)
Apartheid is legally enforced segregation. This doesn't apply to Israel. Israeli arabs have the same economic and political rights as Israeli jews.

The Mines and Works Act and Verwoerd's opinion on Bantu education come to my mind.


There is no place for [the Bantu] in the European community above the level of certain forms of labour ... What is the use of teaching the Bantu child mathematics when it cannot use it in practice? That is quite absurd. Education must train people in accordance with their opportunities in life, according to the sphere in which they live.

This site's ok if you wan't to check out some laws that were enacted during the apartheid.
http://africanhistory.about.com/library/bl/blsalaws.htm


I really can't see how you could compare Israel to the apartheid regime in South Africa. There's simply no historical and legal evidence to support your claim, which is fairly popular within the left.
Though this doesn't mean that arabs and other poc within the Israeli society aren't underprivileged .

TL;DR Opression? Yes. Apartheid? No.

[G4b3n]

And I was trying so hard to avoid this thread



Being marginalized and exploited doesn't make you a victim of apartheid. (Hint: nations aren't exploited; workers are)
Apartheid is legally enforced segregation. This doesn't apply to Israel. Israeli arabs have the same economic and political rights as Israeli jews.

The Mines and Works Act and Verwoerd's opinion on Bantu education come to my mind.



This site's ok if you wan't to check out some laws that were enacted during the apartheid.
http://africanhistory.about.com/library/bl/blsalaws.htm


I really can't see how you could compare Israel to the apartheid regime in South Africa. There's simply no historical and legal evidence to support your claim, which is fairly popular within the left.
Though this doesn't mean that arabs and other poc within the Israeli society aren't underprivileged .

TL;DR Opression? Yes. Apartheid? No.

So ethnic criteria for housing and settlement is the equivalent of "equal rights?"

"Underprivileged" is an understatement if I have ever seen one.

Workers are not the only ones who can be exploited, and to suppose that they are is just constricting your definition of exploitation to pure dogmatism. Though Israeli Arabs are largely of the working poor.

[#FF0000]

DOOM is pointing out that what's happening in Israel is different than what was happening in South Africa. That is why it's a bad idea to compare atrocities and instances of brutality to one another.

[Rurkel]

The "apartheid" thing is about Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank, not about those who hold Israeli citizenship. The situation in West Bank, with some roads and patches of land reserved only for the local Israeli settlers, is pretty close. Furthermore, Gaza and West Bank don't seem to be viable states in themselves, settlers aside.

[G4b3n]

DOOM is pointing out that what's happening in Israel is different than what was happening in South Africa. That is why it's a bad idea to compare atrocities and instances of brutality to one another.

Apartheid has a very specific definition set by the UN. And Israel fits that definition just as well as South Africa did. No one is saying they are the same.

[cyu]

Is this apartheid, is that apartheid? Is this genocide, is that genocide? Is this a concentration camp, is that a concentration camp? I'm not really sure semantic arguments are useful - then again, this comment isn't exactly on topic either, but meh -_-

[Pancakes Rühle]

And I was trying so hard to avoid this thread



Being marginalized and exploited doesn't make you a victim of apartheid. (Hint: nations aren't exploited; workers are)
Apartheid is legally enforced segregation. This doesn't apply to Israel. Israeli arabs have the same economic and political rights as Israeli jews.

The Mines and Works Act and Verwoerd's opinion on Bantu education come to my mind.



This site's ok if you wan't to check out some laws that were enacted during the apartheid.


I really can't see how you could compare Israel to the apartheid regime in South Africa. There's simply no historical and legal evidence to support your claim, which is fairly popular within the left.
Though this doesn't mean that arabs and other poc within the Israeli society aren't underprivileged .

TL;DR Opression? Yes. Apartheid? No.

I agree with you, and I think Noam Chomsky has made the point best... to paraphrase:

"What Israel does to the Palestinians isn't apartheid. To call it apartheid is a gift to Israel. What it does, is much worse."

[John Lennin]

Let's be honest: This discussion won't lead anywhere.



As the granddaughter of a Jew, I have a right to return that I wouldn't have if I was the granddaughter of a Palestinian Arab. So clearly under Israeli law there are different categories of citizenship based on whether or not one is Jewish.

It's much easier for jews to become a citizen than for everyone else. But: As soon as you are a legal citizen you have equal rights.

[Pancakes Rühle]

Let's be honest: This discussion won't lead anywhere.




It's much easier for jews to become a citizen than for everyone else. But: As soon as you are a legal citizen you have equal rights.

Yeah, so long as she is Ashkenazi.

Wait, do you believe that if it says so on paper, in regards to equal rights, that it is so in practice?

[cyu]

There are no equal rights in any capitalist country because capitalism itself grants more rights to the capitalist. If it didn't, the country wouldn't be capitalist.

[bricolage]

Yeah, so long as she is Ashkenazi.

Wait, do you believe that if it says so on paper, in regards to equal rights, that it is so in practice?
Yet that's what differentiates apartheid or Jim crow era USA from say the USA today, the former is de jure racism while the latter is just de facto.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

It's much easier for jews to become a citizen than for everyone else. But: As soon as you are a legal citizen you have equal rights.
A 2004 report by the US government found that Israel had done "little to reduce institutional, legal, and societal discrimination against the country's Arab citizens". It hasn't changed much since then, and if Israel's ally said that, it's probably even worse than that on the ground.