Political problems in personal life?

[Tim Cornelis]

Most Dutch lefties' social circles are entirely 'alternative left' as far as I can tell, or at least the visible lefties. How's that for people here? Most friends far-left or not? And for those whose social circles are not predominantly left, does that cause issues? Please feel free to share anecdotes or whatever if you want to.

Personally, I sometimes encounter some minor problems, meeting people that aspire to become cops or are police volunteers, that say casual sexist and borderline racist stuff. Anyone, for instance, dated someone that turned out to have far-right politics, or a friend that they had to disassociate from because of their politics?

How did you deal with such issues and problems?

[Creative Destruction]

I have one or two friends who are as far left as I am. Others are a mixed bag of liberals and conservatives (some Tea Partiers, some not.) Much of my family are conservatives, but I've only had it out with one of them. Other than that, not really any issues. I'll counter something if I disagree with it and make it clear to them that just because they voice a view doesn't mean it can't be challenged (which seems to be the assumption for a lot of people.) That'll lead to some rifts, temporarily, but it usually mends after some time.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I make my affiliation as a revolutionary socialist and worker community activist very clear to everyone in my life. Most of the people I tend to spend my time with are working class and tend to accept my leftist politics. If some of our family's friends say something that offends my worldview I'll withdraw myself or change the subject which has an effect on people by itself. If they keep making reactionary or racist remarks even though they can tell that it annoys me I'll occasionally open myself up to their subject and show how illogical said idea is. Honestly, I'm not going to choose to hang around people with reactionary views too much if I feel their personality doesn't compensate. When I was younger and a marxist social/historical understanding was the only basis for rationality in what seemed a confusing world, a person's politics was the most important point to me. I feel more positive about myself and capable now than in my earlier years, so a person's politics aren't too important to me anymore. A person's politics can be relatively easily influenced if you've got the right motivation to, i.e. one sees potential in them.

[Art Vandelay]

I'd say that most of my friends - although not all - are left leaning liberals. My best friend I am lucky to count amongst my comrades, we kind of matured politically with one another, reading books and trot papers, pulling all nighters driving to the states for protests or campaigns, etc. The individual I'm currently dating is also somewhat radical and would self identify as an anti-capitalist, although she mostly approaches things from a feminist perspective.

When it comes to political conversations I don't do much but occasionally offer up my opinion in a fairly non-confrontational way. The people in my life are well aware of my political views and I never shy away from openly declaring myself a communist, but I find most political discussions with people tiring and I'm not in the conversion game. Alot of Marxists I know and have met, let their political convictions effect their personal life, which is something I'm pretty good at avoiding; I find most of those people a bore and they would probably be some of the last folks I'd want to go out for a beer with.

[pax et aequalitas]

I'm a Dutchie, but pretty much no lefties in my social circle. Probably because in my small town there aren't many to begin with. I guess since my social circle contains plenty of punks and metalheads and other alternative folks there are a bunch of anti-authoritarian guys but none of them are really thinking about it much. Two of my best friends are interested in politics though, yet one is a staunch neoliberal and the other is pretty much social-democrat. He'd probably be fairly right wing if he wasn't influenced a bit by me.

This indeed leads to personal issues. As that last friend I mention there for example wanted to join the marines for a long time for example. So we had a lot of discussions about that. We've been friends for a long time though so he accepts my views even if he doesn't always agree with them and he is anti-fascist though.

Most of my friends agree on one thing though: Racism and the extreme right are despised so we got some unity in that. Most of the people around me are also LGBT-friendly. Feminist slightly less overt but I guess I introduced a bit of that as well.

In general it doesn't lead to conflict. Maybe it's also because except to people who know me well, I just seem to be like a harmless hippie. Those who are closer to me actually know the extent of my views. Still wish I had any comrades though :crying:

[Bala Perdida]

I judge more based on personality than politics. Mostly because politics doesn't come up until later with most people. I have friends I've grown up with that decided to join the army, a decision I don't support. I just say, fuck it. I'll tell them to shoot their officers if they have to fire on villagers or some other cliche shit. Also, same as Tim, when people wanna be cops I think that shit's fucked up. I haven't seen anyone actually do it yet so until then I won't cut off ties. Politically I got liberal friends, one of my friends I influenced anarchist style. I have another friend who is bisexual and has a fascination with Hitler, but he expresses it in an adult cartoon humor style. His personality makes up for it and he's not being an open racist so meh... I got a cousin just like him, who I've grown up with and accept as a friend. Also he shares some of my anti-cop views and anti-rich views. As for my family they are bad people. Capitalist work ethic, petit-bourgeois morals, religious enforcement, serious and sometimes open racism, conservative views, demeaning of women, the list goes on. I'm struggling to disassociate myself from most of them. I'm still living with my mom so it's hard. I also don't like associating with rich people much, but that's been a thing. I don't feel comfortable with them. It gives me quite a culture shock.
I'm usually quiet in person, but when I my political views come out people like me more. They're like "damn I didn't know you were crazy" and I come off as a street intellectual or something. But when I clash with bourgeoies, they get scared when they realise shit is real. Also my cousins friend is a commie and he introduced me to him, he seems cool. That guy likes my committed views, and I think he's pretty genuine.

[Lily Briscoe]

Most of my friends are either apathetic "social liberals" or something broadly on 'the left'. Talking about 'personal political problems' though, the person I was seeing before my current partner was this self-declared socialist feminist who had recently come to the States from Brest and was studying to be an MD, and basically the whole situation seemed waaaay too good to be true, which it was... She turned out to be SUPER racist (like, 'more accessible contraceptives in Africa is a bad idea because African men will just use it to rape with impunity' really overt kind of racism), took about two seconds for me to stop being attracted to her after that came to light ugh

I'm not someone who feels the need to constantly get in political arguments with friends or 'call people out' or something, but I really can't be friends with people who are ideologically racist or sexist or anti-immigrant or whatever

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i have hardly any friends, most of them are shades of apathetic liberal. Generally speaking I think a lot of them have moved further left over the last few years and as arrogant as it sounds I think I played a part in that. I have a few friends who are (broadly speaking) anticapitalists, although its probably lip service for the most part seeing as most of them vote green.

[Sewer Socialist]

My older sister is pretty right-wing in my opinion, and my parents would say racist things, and have ideas influenced by racism when I was growing up. It's weird, because my older sister probably considers herself to be a leftist, votes Obama, etc. She says all sorts of racist and pro-imperialist things, talks about how China is socialist (which was it's own funny conversation - it was socialist because Mao said so. Proof!), North Korea took her movie away, segregation only exists today because people want it, and it's not legally enforced, so it's not racism, etc.

My younger sister is left-wing, really into feminism, anti-racist activism, etc. We argue with our older sister a lot, and she's always bringing up new things to instigate arguments with. She also seems to hold weird resentment towards me, from childhood maybe, so I don't really enjoy talking to her.

As far as ostracizing people, I've only really experienced it with rapists. The rapists usually consider themselves to be leftists.:(

[Rosa Partizan]

Most Dutch lefties' social circles are entirely 'alternative left' as far as I can tell, or at least the visible lefties. How's that for people here? Most friends far-left or not? And for those whose social circles are not predominantly left, does that cause issues? Please feel free to share anecdotes or whatever if you want to.



well, no. I divide the people I hang out with in 2 categories: The ones from university that I've known longer than anyone here, they're mostly left liberals or social democrats with some feminism and privilege theory going on. This makes it easy to agree on several point like migration politics, abortion, blah blah. We go seperate ways with issues like police, for example, because they'd be like #notallpolicemen and some of them are pacifists, ugh, whatever.

The people from the autonomous venue I hang out with are self-proclaimed radical leftists and I see a lot more consistency here. They're more committed and none of them is a pacifist. I see some liberal attitudes shining through, though, which I don't make any fuss over because I got that, too (I vote, i.e.). To sum it up, it's fine with me. Considering what super conservative, small town I live in, this is the best I can probably get.

[motion denied]

Like Rosa I separate 2 categories. Those heavily political (strange mix of autonomia council communist sympathizers or w/e) which are mainly from University/students activism. "Normal" people with whom I discuss the real important stuff (eg football).

And old people from a dive bar nearby. Snooker gods and if you have enough stomach to ignore the occasional bigotry you'll hear some real drunken wisdom.

Elder people have lived all their lives in some way, they've built their lives around it, no point in engaging in endless (drunk) arguments. I'm less tolerant of young people tho, cuz they should know better

[bcbm]

my two best friends are an anarchist and a libertarian but we dont really talk politics that much. in general everyone i know is liberal/leftish but mostly apathetic. we're more into drinking and culture and im okay with that judging by what ive seen of some of the old crews i used to run with. but i mean everyone knows i hate the police or whatever and its not a big deal

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

No point in talking about politics when I can talk about dicks.

Apoliticals are fine though. But nothing else. I'm massively intolerant of any disagreement. rawrrrr

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I killed all of my friends that did not agree with me.

This is why I no longer have friends.

(The above is nearly true - I didn't kill anyone but I sometimes wish I did. Turns out that's illegal though. Fucking fascist laws. At one point, though, I decided that hanging out with people who think gay people should be prohibited from adopting children or that Italians have it so good in Croatia just wasn't good for my nerves. As evidenced by aforementioned murder fantasies. So I dropped the whole sorry lot. And I decided that, if I'm going to lose all my friends, I might as well make improvisational political theatre out of it. Let me tell you, I had more fun than I should have ranting about how all Croats need to be killed with that slightly insane look in my eyes.

Best performance ever, 10/10 would do again.)

[Futility Personified]

I am the most politically developed of my friends because when I gave up playing MMOs for vandalism and drinking I needed to create a fascinating narrative to convince me that I was the pure incarnation of class struggle and thus far cooler than a person who goes around killing the undead and fighting demons in space.

I find it more irritating when someone says they are an anarchist or a socialist and then drops a liberal bombshell or some moronic anti-migrant sentiment, than if they are just honest and say they're pro capitalism or whatever. It still annoys the shit out of me, but at least they have sensible intentions and you don't feel betrayed.

[Atsumari]

I do not let political opinions get in the way of making friends with a few exceptions of course, but I cannot stand people whose conception of discourse and truth are awful. For example, when you are having a discussion with someone and they start every sentence with "I believe" or "In my opinion" and simply avoid talking with them.
One group that I found to be the most insufferable, more so than Republicans, libertarians, and bleeding heart liberals are New Atheists and when I learn that they are, I treat them like shit. I have been able to enjoy productive conversations with right-wing nationalists, Islamists, and Stalinists, but never with New Atheists.

[BIXX]

I do not let political opinions get in the way of making friends with a few exceptions of course, but I cannot stand people whose conception of discourse and truth are awful. For example, when you are having a discussion with someone and they start every sentence with "I believe" or "In my opinion" and simply avoid talking with them.
One group that I found to be the most insufferable, more so than Republicans, libertarians, and bleeding heart liberals are New Atheists and when I learn that they are, I treat them like shit. I have been able to enjoy productive conversations with right-wing nationalists, Islamists, and Stalinists, but never with New Atheists.
Jesus, you're so much more tolerant than I am.

[Bala Perdida]

I do not let political opinions get in the way of making friends with a few exceptions of course, but I cannot stand people whose conception of discourse and truth are awful. For example, when you are having a discussion with someone and they start every sentence with "I believe" or "In my opinion" and simply avoid talking with them.
One group that I found to be the most insufferable, more so than Republicans, libertarians, and bleeding heart liberals are New Atheists and when I learn that they are, I treat them like shit. I have been able to enjoy productive conversations with right-wing nationalists, Islamists, and Stalinists, but never with New Atheists.
Like the ones that want to destroy every religion and like pointing out that the bible is terrible to quiet people on the bus?

[Lily Briscoe]

Oh no, people who want to destroy every religion! They prolly wanna take your dad's gun collection too! :ohmy:

I have a soft spot for militant atheists who shit all over people's religious beliefs. I don't think it's 'politically productive', but I find it relatively satisfying on some level.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Like the ones that want to destroy every religion and like pointing out that the bible is terrible to quiet people on the bus?

Well, they certainly can't stop talking about religion-in-the-abstract. I don't have any problem with wanting to destroy religion, but they tend not to be interested so much in the practical realities of this as they are fighting windmills and staw-men they create in their minds. Unbearable, smug and occasionally quite new-agey and quasi-religious they can be, like Sam Harrisoids and Bill Mahers, a penchant for the non-religious woo while smugly declaring themselves oh-so-superiorly enlightened. Ceaselessly they masturbate to idealistic fantasies of the renaissance.

[Lily Briscoe]

While I'm sure there might be one or two of them out there, I can't say I've ever met any "new agey" militant atheists either. Most "new age" people are all about "respecting religious beliefs", kinda like a lot of people on revleft.

[Atsumari]

Oh no, people who want to destroy every religion! They prolly wanna take your dad's gun collection too! :ohmy:

I have a soft spot for militant atheists who shit all over people's religious beliefs. I don't think it's 'politically productive', but I find it relatively satisfying on some level.
How should I put it...
There is the debate about whether God exists or not which are fine and should be encouraged but things get really ugly when the debate about the effects of religion comes up. New Atheists have a way of generalizing all Christians and Muslims especially as racist, homophobic, and closet Nazis when in fact, they may be the opposite. They also rarely demonstrate logic and rationality, but instead will often talk about concepts of logic and rationality and will not hide the fact that they themselves by default are logical and their opponents are not.
To make things worse, they will even take issues that are not necessarily connected to religion and try to paint it as being religious fundamentalism, like Thunderf00t and The Amazing Atheist does to feminism.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I guess it comes down to priorities, however. Now, I think religious thought ought to be opposed, but it is important to understand that simply framing it as something to fight for in and of itself is just not likely to work very well. It is hard to convince someone of anything when they feel they are being attacked; to illustrate this point clearly, think of the Soviet anti-religious campaigns, particularly in the Central Asian republics. Those campaigns were, while at-heart not objectionable and indeed good, they were so poorly managed and executed that they had the opposite effect; the excessively overt attack by what was perceived as 'outside' influence meant that the community only turned more insular, into itself, and actually increased the active religiosity of the populations in some areas.

It's a very tender issue that must be handled slowly and gradually, to avoid that sort of counter-productive friction.

[Lily Briscoe]

I'm not sure who you're arguing with, Takayuki. I already mentioned that I don't think militant atheists shitting on people's' religious beliefs is 'politically productive'. I just have better things to cry about than people in a deeply religious country having the nerve to insult religious beliefs.

[Redistribute the Rep]

How should I put it...
There is the debate about whether God exists or not which are fine and should be encouraged but things get really ugly when the debate about the effects of religion comes up. New Atheists have a way of generalizing all Christians and Muslims especially as racist, homophobic, and closet Nazis when in fact, they may be the opposite. They also rarely demonstrate logic and rationality, but instead will often talk about concepts of logic and rationality and will not hide the fact that they themselves by default are logical and their opponents are not.
To make things worse, they will even take issues that are not necessarily connected to religion and try to paint it as being religious fundamentalism, like Thunderf00t and The Amazing Atheist does to feminism.

Not to mention, they're elitist as fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

Yea, it's kind of annoying how they think just constantly asserting that something is logical makes it so. They seem to overinflate their intelligence just because they're right on something, like they think disbelieving in God is some massive intellectual feat or something.

But yeah, their prevalence is probably exaggerated by their disproportionate Internet presence

[Lily Briscoe]

Have you ever met any militant atheists outside the Internet?

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

I'm not sure who you're arguing with, Takayuki. I already mentioned that I don't think militant atheists shitting on people's' religious beliefs is 'politically productive'. I just have better things to cry about than people in a deeply religious country having the nerve to insult religious beliefs.

Taka is the type of person who could start an argument by herself in the middle of an empty room. She's the Red Sonja to Rafiq's Conan the Bolshevik. :laugh:

Anyway, I don't know of a single fellow revolutionary socialist where I live....so I try to abstain from talking about politics in general. I actually kind of envy those of you who live in an area where socialist activism is a common and tolerated political phenomenon. Here in Macon I'd probably get lynched.

[Atsumari]

Have you ever met any militant atheists outside the Internet?

They are not as prevalent outside the internet because most people do not care about anything IRL, but there was a sizable amount of them when I was in high school and some in college. I have a feeling that its mostly a young people thing and it seems to be less common than it was in the past.


Taka is the type of person who could start an argument by herself in the middle of an empty room. She's the Red Sonja to Rafiq's Conan the Bolshevik. :laugh:

Anyway, I don't know of a single fellow revolutionary socialist where I live....so I try to abstain from talking about politics in general. I actually kind of envy those of you who live in an area where socialist activism is a common and tolerated political phenomenon. Here in Macon I'd probably get lynched.
Not every single forum post has to be an argument against someone else.

[Lily Briscoe]

They are not as prevalent outside the internet because most people do not care about anything IRL, but there was a sizable amount of them when I was in high school and some in college. I have a feeling that its mostly a young people thing and it seems to be less common than it was in the past.
All of the ones I've ever interacted with have been people I've known in person. Which is why I asked, I wasn't sure if peoples' complaints are related to some obscure online trend in the corner of the Internet or to something they've actually encountered.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

I'm not sure who you're arguing with, Takayuki. I already mentioned that I don't think militant atheists shitting on people's' religious beliefs is 'politically productive'. I just have better things to cry about than people in a deeply religious country having the nerve to insult religious beliefs.

I wasn't arguing? I was just... going on a digression on the topic we were on...

[Bala Perdida]

All of the ones I've ever interacted with have been people I've known in person. Which is why I asked, I wasn't sure if peoples' complaints are related to some obscure online trend in the corner of the Internet or to something they've actually encountered.
Oh yeah. The only real militant one I've interacted with is my cousin who is obnoxious as balls. Also one in my old high school, but him existing quietly made him worth a punch in the face too so I didn't care enough a out him.
They also think they're the only ones who know religion is terrible, and most of them uphold a religious morality which makes it more annoying.

[blake 3:17]

All the time! You got to learn to get along. Pick your battles. Know your friends.

[Ele'ill]

my friend population of about less than 10 is mixed but there are no folks in it who are not at least interested in the possibilities of situations/theory and then there are 2 nihilists. It is mostly built around fun, i find having super active radical friends in close proximity to be exhausting but there are moments. I have broken ties with close friends before. If you think deleting people off your facebook is a rush you should try doing it irl just remember afterwards that the little voice wondering and suggesting that you are a vapid piece of shit is wrong.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

My work requires me to interact with low level politicians and sometimes cops, I've gotten pretty good at faking polite conversation with total scum. Most of my friends have shifted to apathy regardless of what their leanings were earlier in life. My political discussions are now mostly relegated to the internet and the 2 activist friends that I still keep in touch with.

[human strike]

I don't really know or associate with anyone who isn't a lefty (in the loosest sense of the word). Maybe there was one or two at work, but I don't work there anymore and the vast majority were lefty liberal types, like most people in the arts and charity sectors. I live in a bubble. Like, take the house that I live in; three of my housemates are members of Left Unity. I have a brother-in-law who votes UKIP - that's seriously the only right-wing person I can think of right now that I know personally.

But quite often I find myself strongly disliking lefties, so...

[Devrim]

Anyone, for instance, dated someone that turned out to have far-right politics,

I went out with a hardline Kemalist for over a year. It was a bit weird, but ok really.

Devrim

[consuming negativity]

i throw away tons of perfectly good tobacco that was only grown so that i could throw it away

the personal is the political

[Subversive]

What is a "friend"?

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I've lived in anarchist collective houses for a decade. Many of my closest friends are either professed anarchists/libertarian communists, or "negative anarchists" who, if not anarchists by reason of anarchist convictions, oppose everything anarchists oppose out of a sort of post-modern nihilism.
The exception - among those who I would consider close confidants - are a handful of working class rural folks whose "common sense" politics are for all intents and purposes compatible with anarchism. And, in many cases, their ethics are more "on" than many professed revolutionists.

In my broader circles there's a smattering of various sorts of revolutionary communists, "activists", hippies, punks, etc. - then co-workers and so-on of diverse political dispositions.

I suspect I'm unusually social by the standards of this board, though.

[RedKobra]

Ain't got none, not terribly bothered. My wife is my best friend and has been since we were both 16, she's a leftie but isn't into ideologies, she's mostly into charities and progressive NGO's. My brothers aren't in the least bit interested in politics although the middle one mixes fairly progressive views on sexuality & drugs with some depressingly lazy views on immigrants, taxation and the unemployed. If he knew what such a thing was he'd probably call himself a (soft) Libertarian. I don't have anything to do with my parents anymore but they have been steadily moving further and further rightward socially. When I was young they were somewhere between Old & New Labour. They were hunt-saboteurs, anti-poll tax, anti-monarchy, sympathetic to black carribeans, in favour of high income tax. The seeds were there though for their rightwards march. They were always distrustful of people on benefits, had stupidly patriarchal views about women, didn't feel that Africans and Pakistani's did enough to integrate.etc These days (unless they've changed dramatically) they're paranoid about eastern europeans, think Britain is over-crowded, think young people are all in gangs, think criminals get off too easy blah blah blah.

If they weren't such cowards they'd vote UKIP but I imagine they'll still vote Labour, thank god, as a way to convince themselves that they're not actually horribly reactionary.

My radical views do sometimes cause agitation between my wife and me. She is petrified of violence and social unrest. Because of my views I can't guarantee that violence and social unrest won't happen. I learned a long time ago to just not talk politics with my birth family. It always ended up in seething animosity.

[motion denied]

My wife is my best friend and has been since we were both 16

Mate I don't know how old you are, but this is the sweetest thing :p

[Asero]

Rafiq's Conan the Bolshevik.

:laugh::laugh::laugh: