Shit Podemos says

[RedWorker]

Here I'll keep people updated on some of the latest events related to Podemos, a Spanish populist/social-democratic party. Read my blog entry: Exposing the Podemos fraud (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=19183) for my account of Podemos' history.

[RedWorker]

Pablo Iglesias and Iñigo Errejon have secret conversation with the former social-liberal (PSOE) Prime Minister of Spain, Zapatero, and the former minister of defense. source (http://www.laizquierdadiario.com/La-reunion-secreta-de-Pablo-Iglesias-y-Rodriguez-Zapatero-conversando-con-la-casta)

The general secretary of Podemos in Madrid says that the Santander Bank is "part of the businessmen who want to contribute to social change", and that there are "parts of capitalism that want a country with less inequality". source (http://www.laizquierdadiario.com/Para-dirigente-de-Podemos-los-banqueros-del-Santander-no-son-casta-quieren-contribuir-al-bienestar)

[Rudolf]

The general secretary of Podemos in Madrid says that the Santander Bank is "part of the businessmen who want to contribute to social change", and that there are "parts of capitalism that want a country with less inequality". source (http://www.laizquierdadiario.com/Para-dirigente-de-Podemos-los-banqueros-del-Santander-no-son-casta-quieren-contribuir-al-bienestar)


Fucking hell that is insane. Obviously the general sec of Podemos in Madrid doesn't give a shit about workers as Santander engages in union busting. They sacked a CNT member the other year for organising a union-branch.

[Samurai Socialist]

Here I'll keep people updated on some of the latest events related to Podemos, a Spanish populist/social-democratic party. Read my blog entry:Exposing the Podemos fraud[/URL] for my account of Podemos' history.

As you've probably already noticed, I am a supporter of this movement. But that does not mean I don't have some concerns over how Iglesias will steer the party in the lead up to the election. I feel though that it is too early to dismiss Podemos' socialist credentials and to dismiss the integrity of Iglesias himself.

Having just read your blog post I'd be interested to know where you got this information from:

"The aim of the new programme was to dismantle the old demands, structured around Anticapitalist Left's manifesto. The demand for an unconditional basic income, for nationalizations of key sectors of the economy, and all other significant demands went away. What was left was comparable to the PSOE's programme."

A quick look at the Programme on the Podemos website shows:

1.6 Public control in strategic sectors of the economy:
telecommunications, energy, food, transportation, healthcare, pharmaceutical
and education through public acquisition

and

1.12 Right to a basic income for every citizen

These policies are still very much a part of the manifesto. Granted, they have compromised on some issues such as retirement age and this raises concerns but the compromises made in November have been over-exaggerated.

[RedWorker]

The new Podemos programme advocates a minimum income, not an unconditional basic income as its former programme did. As for nationalization, I have read that certain calls for nationalization have been eliminated or watered down. Podemos' socialist credentials? How is it even socialist in any way? And the point is not only the specific compromises that have been made but the way in what they have been made. It shows that the party adapts itself to the leaders' will on a whim, with no approval required from the actual membership.

[Samurai Socialist]

Podemos is certainly socialist, there is no doubt about that. Although, I share some of your concerns regarding the possibility of compromise , it is still based on socialist principles. Calling for "nationalisation of key industries", "guaranteeing social rights in front of interest or payments to creditors" and "guaranteeing basic income" are all fundamental here. I don't see a functional difference between the "right to a basic income" as stated in their manifesto and an "unconditional basic income" as you mention.

These policies, and the way they are presented, are not revolutionary enough for you and, to be honest, they are not revolutionary enough for me either. However, I believe that there is no strong basis for popular revolutionary movement in Europe at the moment, it just doesn't exist. My theory is that this is related to years of capitalist brainwashing delivered through advertising and the media, which has created a kind of internal class battle with people becoming desensitised to social issues. Because of this, we need to institute certain socialist mechanisms in society which can re-engage people with social aspects of life and wean them off commerce and consumption. Until this happens, I don't think there is a basis for revolutionary socialism. This is why I support movements like Podemos as the opportunity to move the public consciousness away from the messages sent by neoliberalism and open their minds again to socialism.

That said though, Podemos is not immune to criticism and I have concerns over some of the developments in recent months. But if parties like Syriza and Podemos fail in Europe then we on the left will have taken a tremendous blow in trying change the way that our societies are run.

[RedWorker]

Podemos is certainly socialist, there is no doubt about that. Although, I share some of your concerns regarding the possibility of compromise , it is still based on socialist principles. Calling for "nationalisation of key industries", "guaranteeing social rights in front of interest or payments to creditors" and "guaranteeing basic income" are all fundamental here.

Come on, you cannot be this naïve. Many PSOE and Labour Party programmes have contained the exact same slogans.


I don't see a functional difference between the "right to a basic income" as stated in their manifesto and an "unconditional basic income" as you mention.

A minimum income (irrelevant if it's called a "basic income") is much different from an unconditional basic income, with different effects. There is much information explaining it on-line; you should research it.

[Samurai Socialist]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I am cautiously optimistic about Podemos and the movement they've started whereas you have taken a dislike to them based on a few things you've read in the press and the semantics around the manifesto. Feel free to share your online research if you think it basks up your point

[RedWorker]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. I am cautiously optimistic about Podemos and the movement they've started whereas you have taken a dislike to them based on a few things you've read in the press and the semantics around the manifesto. Feel free to share your online research if you think it basks up your point

I'm not close-minded at all. I have been one of the persons who was interested about Podemos and started talking about it here. Contrary to what some users here think, I did not worship it; I was simply interested about it. At first it seemed like good news; then it was undeniably obvious everything was becoming worse and, coincidentally, it was exactly matching the predictions made by the "close-minded communists" who are so unlike you.

So, no, my criticism of Podemos (which you seem to portray as an irrational hate) is not based on "something I've read in the press" (if at all it's you who has not stamped out bourgeois ideology yet) and is not based around the words used in a manifesto. Actually, it is you who is using the stupid slogans from the manifesto in order to attempt to defend them, when it is the programmatical changes in actual content and the way they have been undertaken that actually matters, but this is but an expression of the party's fundamental flaws.

You know, you can be supportive while being extremely critical at once (no, I don't support Podemos). But for you it is about just completely shielding it (no matter how much you claim you are critical). It's like you're one of these government-worshippers in Venezuela.

[Samurai Socialist]

I'm not having a go at your opinion and it is good to have the debate. As I said earlier I do share some of your concerns but there is still enough cause for optimism in my opinion. In particular I feel that the movement itself has gained a momentum which has taken it beyond Iglesias and the party and that is an achievement worth supporting. Nobody knows where it'll go from here but from now we can agree to disagree.

[RedWorker]

Podemos ethnic nationalist speech at Madrid mass rally: among other things, Iglesias, the leader of Podemos, states that the "DNA" of the Spanish people who fought the Napoleonic occupation "is among us".

Pablo Iglesias referenced several historical Spanish persons, and said: "We need more Quixotes. We are proud of being that dreamer atop a horse, we are proud of being that universal Spanish man." "Our Fatherland is not our brand, our Fatherland is the people", said Iglesias. Continuing his nationalist speech, he stated: "They wanted to humiliate our country with that scam called austerity. There will never again be Spain without its people, never again Spain as a brand for the rich to make money. We are not a brand, we are a country of people." "Today we reference our Fatherland with pride and we say that the Fatherland is not merely a flag for others to wear. The Fatherland is that community that protects all the citizens," said Iglesias.

[RedWorker]

Iglesias: "Those who privatize are traitors to the Fatherland". (source (http://www.publico.es/politica/iglesias-llama-traidores-patria-privatizan.html))