Extraordinary video of Ukraine parliament with evidence of US staging civil war

[ckaihatsu]

[Labor Beat] Extraordinary video of session in Ukraine parliament considering evidence of US staging civil war


Anti-war activists:

Here is a video documentation of a session of the Ukrainian parliament on Nov. 20, 2013, where a deputy presents evidence of the U.S. staging a civil war in Ukraine, while a group of deputies loudly chants through his presentation in an attempt to drown him out.

This video does provide an English translation, but it is rather small, so you will need to view the video in full computer screen mode to read it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-ts=1422411861&x-yt-cl=84924572&v=y9hOl8TuBUM

[White_Sun]

I wonder why this wasn't "milked" so to speak by Russia? It seems really late for such a video to go viral.

Good find in any case.

[Palmares]

The guy speaking is this guy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Tsarov

Also, transcript of video (which I copied from another forum):


Transcript:

Deputy Oleg Tsarov has the word


Honourable Colleagues
Honourable Vladimir Vasiljevitch

In my role as a representative of the Ukrainian people…
…activists of the public organisation "Volya" turned to me…
…providing clear evidence…
…that within our territory…
…with support and direct participation
…of the US Embassy in Kiev…
…the "TechCamp" project is realised…
…under which preparations are being made for a civil war in Ukraine.

The "TechCamp" project prepares specialists for information warfare…
…and the discrediting of state institutions using modern media…
…potential revolutionaries…
…for organising protests…
… and the toppling of the State Order.

The project is currently overseen and under the responsibility…
…of the US ambassador to Ukraine…
…Geoffrey R. Pyatt.

After the conversation with the organisation "Volya“…
… I have learned…
…that they succeeded to access Facilities in the project "TechCamp“…
…disguising as a team of IT specialists.

To their surprise, briefings on peculiarities of modern media were held.

American instructors explained how social networks and Internet technologies…
…can be used for targeted manipulation of public opinion…
…as well as to activate protest potential…
…to provoke violent unrest on the territory of Ukraine…
…Radicalisation of the population and triggering of infighting.

American instructors show examples of successful use of social networks…
…used to organise protests
…in Egypt, Tunisia and Libya.

"TechCamp" representatives currently hold conferences throughout Ukraine.

A total of five events have been held so far.

About 300 people were trained as operatives, which are now active throughout Ukraine.

The last conference "TechCamp" took place on 14 and 15 November 2013…
…in the Heart of Kiev on the territory of the US Embassy!

You tell me which country in the world would allow…
…a NGO to operate out of the US Embassy?

This is disrespectful to the Ukrainian government, and against the Ukrainian People!

I appeal to the Constitutional Authorities of Ukraine with the following question:

Is it conceivable that representatives of the US Embassy…
…which organise the "TechCamp" Conferences…
…misuse their diplomatic mission?

–– Let him speak ––

Carry On

UN Resolution of 21 December 1965 regulates…
…inadmissibility of interference in the internal affairs of a state…
…to protect its independence and its sovereignty…
…in accordance with paragraphs one, two and five.

I ask you to consider this as an official beseech…
…to pursue an investigation of this case

Thank You!


But yeah, not sure what to make of this, yet. I'm not one to jump on the conspiracy bandwagon (though I love their entertainment value), I'm just looking into this more.

[ckaihatsu]

---





Political career[edit]

Tsarov became a People's Deputy of Ukraine (народний депутат України) in 2002.[1] In 2005 he became head of the Dnipropetrovsk regional branch of the Party of Regions.[1] In 2006, he became a People's Deputy of Ukraine for the Party of Regions.[1]

Shortly before the events at the Maidan, Tsarov delivered a speech in which he accused the US Embassy in Kiev of making preparations to begin a civil war in Ukraine.[8] The program Tsarov accused, called TechCamp, was hosted by the US Embassy, held at Microsoft's Ukraine Headquarters and focused on training non-profit groups in information technologies.[9] Similar events have been hosted in Poland, Lithuania, Chile, Indonesia, and the United States.[10]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleg_Tsarov

[cyu]

while a group of deputies loudly chants through his presentation in an attempt to drown him out.

Democracy is winning in Ukraine :lol:

...and it's winning in my country (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/01/16/the-supreme-court-gutted-the-voting-rights-act-now-a-bipartisan-gang-wants-to-put-it-back-together/) too...

[Palmares]

Democracy is winning in Ukraine :lol:

...and it's winning in my country (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2014/01/16/the-supreme-court-gutted-the-voting-rights-act-now-a-bipartisan-gang-wants-to-put-it-back-together/) too...

They're telling him to speak Ukrainian, as he is speaking Russian.

[cyu]

What is your opinion of the situation (and if it matters, the use of language in general)?

Full disclosure: In my opinion, those in charge of American foreign policy have never been on the side of democracy. Instead, they'd be perfectly happy to support any dictator willing to do their bidding. As a result, any regime supported by the American foreign policy establishment is one I'm immediately suspicious of.

[cyu]

Hmm, was just reminded of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Timor

[DOOM]

By Nov 13 shit was boiling, so I wouldn't say that this is Pre-Maidan.
It's Yanukovych propaganda.

[cyu]

Both the pre-coup and post-coup regimes have Ukraine slotted for austerity measures. The only difference is that the post-coup austerity will be under the auspices of the IMF.

It's not so much that Ukrainian democracy is a joke, but that the post-coup government has to meet certain policy objectives as lined out by NATO - whether they accomplish it through real democracy, fake democracy, or something laughingly undemocratic, it doesn't matter, as long as it gets done.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-12-04/fight-breaks-out-parliament-when-ukraine-learns-it-has-quietly-become-newest-us-stat

Three foreigners -- Natalie Jaresko, Aivaras Abromavicius, and Aleksandr Kvitashvili -- were approved as ministers by Ukraine's parliament on December 2.

Poroshenko naturalized all three hours before their confirmation by parliament.

Natalie Jaresko, United States -- Finance Minister

Jaresko moved to Kyiv in 1992, just months after Ukraine gained independence from the Soviet Union, to head the economic department of the newly opened U.S. embassy.

Prior to her relocation, she held various economic positions in the U.S. State Department.

During the Orange Revolution, Jaresko made no secret of her sympathies for the pro-Western uprising.

U.S. State Department deputy spokeswoman Marie Harf denied Washington had any hand in her appointment.

Aivaras Abromavicius, Lithuania -- Economy Minister

Born in Vilnius, Lithuania, the investment banker is a partner and fund manager at the East Capital asset management group.

The group is a major player in Ukraine, where it invested almost $100 million in 2012.

Aleksandr Kvitashvili, Georgia -- Health Minister

Kvitashvili served as health minister in his native Georgia.

He holds a master's degree from the Robert F. Wagner Graduate School of Public Service in New York.

He has since held positions at a number of healthcare-related organizations, including the United Methodist Committee on Relief, the Curatio International Foundation, the East/West Institute in New York, and the Transatlantic Partners Against AIDS organization.

Kvitashvili does not speak Ukrainian.

[Palmares]

What is your opinion of the situation (and if it matters, the use of language in general)?

Well, again, I'm not entirely sure what to make of all this. It raises some suspicions, but I still question the source itself - Oleg Tsarov. As it would seem he is pro-Russian (e.g. him speaking Russian in the Ukrainian parliament), especially since he became a separatist leader. So the question is what is the proof of his claims? It is interesting though, from the original Ukrainian (I think?) youtube video, it is apparently dated the day before Maidan.

I dunno. Maybe there's someone on here with better knowledge of the conflict who can comment more authoritatively than me. *shrugs*

[Palmares]

Didn't see your above post. But again, isn't that a conspiracy theory link? Need more objective links to verify the claims.

[cyu]

What would your reaction be to someone speaking French in the Canadian parliament, Spanish in the American Congress, or Arabic in the Knesset?

[cyu]

isn't that a conspiracy theory link?

It's not like any website can lie about who a government minister is and expect to get away with it. Anybody could just look it up.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

You keep posting this stuff and you are never concerned that your sources tend to come from conspiracy sites, so I'll try a different angle. What do you think the real significance of this is? Do you think that the anger and resentment that was set off at maiden was entirely a construct of foreign manipulation of social media? Would Yanukovych enjoy broad support in Ukraine today if not for that manipulation? Why is it important from a communist perspective that Ukraine (or part of it at this point) will be economically looted by a US agency rather than a Russian one?

[cyu]

If you want an anarchist answer to Ukraine, then I believe it should be broken up - into as many sovereign bodies as the locals desire. That's my general answer to Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Basque areas of Spain as well. Decentralization to the individual level if necessary.

It would be kind of silly to ask an anarchist if they would prefer the world to be ruled by the US, Russia, or China. The answer would be none-of-the-above, unless one of them was trying to implement a program of mass self-rule, self-determination, and self-governance.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

It would be very silly to ask that question, all the same your articles here clearly present a specific interpretation of events. You didn't answer any of my questions.

[ckaihatsu]

You keep posting this stuff and you are never concerned that your sources tend to come from conspiracy sites,


This is simply a facile slur -- either the research, from whatever source, is sound, or else it isn't.





so I'll try a different angle. What do you think the real significance of this is?


The significance is whether there was foreign influence in the events of Maidan, or not.





Do you think that the anger and resentment that was set off at maiden was entirely a construct of foreign manipulation of social media?


It certainly was *fueled* by foreign intervention, as the U.S. / NATO has done so often, on so many other occasions around the world.





Would Yanukovych enjoy broad support in Ukraine today if not for that manipulation?


Dunno.





Why is it important from a communist perspective that Ukraine (or part of it at this point) will be economically looted by a US agency rather than a Russian one?


Because the U.S. is a world empire, while Russia is not. The U.S. empire has a solid *history* of 'looting' -- expropriating -- while Russia's international business practices have not been dubious.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Russia's business practices clearly are dubious, otherwise there would not be domestic rebellions against them, in Ukraine for instance. Presenting one brand of capitalism as harmful compared to another that is supposedly not is a pretty interesting position for a communist to take. Capitalism is imperialist, states that practise capitalism are imperialists, Russia and the US are capitalist states in competition with one another. One more so than the other.

As for what constitutes verifiable proof to someone who believes in crystal healing and the metaphysical power of water when circulated in a specific direction, I can only guess. I'm interested in what cyu has to say since he started this thread.

[Per Levy]

If you want an anarchist answer to Ukraine, then I believe it should be broken up - into as many sovereign bodies as the locals desire. That's my general answer to Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Basque areas of Spain as well. Decentralization to the individual level if necessary.

isnt that just centralization into smaller areas? cause those new countries wouldnt be anything other than what rest ukraine and new russia is now. still centralized as shit only on a smaller lever.


Because the U.S. is a world empire, while Russia is not. The U.S. empire has a solid *history* of 'looting' -- expropriating -- while Russia's international business practices have not been dubious.

and russia has not a solid history of "'looting' -- expropriating"? im always amazed at notions like that uttered by "marxists". i guess we should've been supportive of germany during wwi after all, since it wasnt plundering and looting the rest of the world as much as the uk and france did.

[ckaihatsu]

Russia's business practices clearly are dubious, otherwise there would not be domestic rebellions against them, in Ukraine for instance.


This is just more facile reasoning on your part -- as this whole thread is about, the reason for the so-called domestic rebellions in Ukraine is due in no small part to the manuevers of the U.S. hegemon in that country. Certainly there's plenty of genuinely domestic anti-Russian sentiment there, too, but even with that as a fact, that doesn't mean that the events in Maidan were specifically about Russia's *business practices*, per se.





Presenting one brand of capitalism as harmful compared to another that is supposedly not is a pretty interesting position for a communist to take. Capitalism is imperialist, states that practise capitalism are imperialists, Russia and the US are capitalist states in competition with one another. One more so than the other.


I agree with this entirely. I don't mean to take sides by simply spelling things out as they are -- clarifying the empirical situation.





As for what constitutes verifiable proof to someone who believes in crystal healing


Not me on that one -- you're showing your facile stereotyping yet again.





and the metaphysical power of water


Still another inaccuracy.





when circulated in a specific direction, I can only guess. I'm interested in what cyu has to say since he started this thread.


Whatever.

[ckaihatsu]

and russia has not a solid history of "'looting' -- expropriating"?


There's a difference between *internal* and *external* -- the issue raised was about Russia's *business practices*.





im always amazed at notions like that uttered by "marxists". i guess we should've been supportive of germany during wwi after all, since it wasnt plundering and looting the rest of the world as much as the uk and france did.


Hyperbole.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Every anti-war demonstration I participated in had undercover cops in the crowd attempting to do this or that, this isn't proof that the US anti-war movement itself was some sort of false front maintained by the state. It would be naive to say there was no US involvement in the maiden protests; you are suggesting however that maiden was entirely due to US involvement and manipulation of social media, which is a ridiculous claim to make without proof. I think everyone has familiarized themselves with your positions on crystals and negative ions and all that, theres no reason for me to misrepresent you. The truth is more than enough in this instance

[ckaihatsu]

Every anti-war demonstration I participated in had undercover cops in the crowd attempting to do this or that, this isn't proof that the US anti-war movement itself was some sort of false front maintained by the state.


This is the first mention of it in this thread, and it's coming from you, so you may as well just say whatever it is you want to say about it. For whatever reason, you're introducing this subject with a decidedly *defensive* tone.





It would be naive to say there was no US involvement in the maiden protests;


And that's what this thread is all about.





you are suggesting however that maiden was entirely due to US involvement and manipulation of social media,


No, I just said:





[C]ertainly there's plenty of genuinely domestic anti-Russian sentiment there, too





which is a ridiculous claim to make without proof.




I think everyone has familiarized themselves with your positions on crystals


Again, not me, no matter how many times you repeat it. (You may want to put forth more effort in your attentions to details.)





and negative ions and all that,


http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/negative-ions-create-positive-vibes





theres no reason for me to misrepresent you. The truth is more than enough in this instance


I'll settle for you just not-misrepresenting me. It would make my day.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Uhh it was a comparison. I'm hardly being defensive, I'm not even expecting either of you to source claims, I'm engaging you openly; show me that maiden was 100% due to US involvement and that contrary to what reality would seem to suggest, the people of Ukraine broadly supported yanukovych and the 'not-dubious' Russian involvement in their economy.

Edit: in case anyone is interested in the other areas of ckaihatsu's expertise, and to show that I'm not misrepresenting him
http://www.revleft.com/vb/use-engineered-sound-t191727/index.html?t=191727
http://www.revleft.com/vb/boost-your-physical-t191186/index.html?t=191186

[ckaihatsu]

Ukrainian Government: “No Russian Troops Are Fighting Against Us”. Sanctions against Russia based on Falsehoods

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukrainian-government-no-russian-troops-are-fighting-against-us-sanctions-against-russia-based-on-falshoods/5428523

Ukraine’s top general is contradicting allegations by the Obama Administration and by his own Ukrainian Government, by saying that no Russian troops are fighting against the Ukrainian Government’s forces in the formerly Ukrainian, but now separatist, area, where the Ukrainian civil war is being waged.

Here is a screen-print of a google-chrome auto-translation of that statement (http://lifenews.ru/news/149116):

http://rinf.com/alt-news/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Screen-Shot-2015-01-30-at-8.40.26-AM.png

The Chief of Staff of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, General Viktor Muzhenko, is saying, in that news-report, which is dated on Thursday January 29th, that the only Russian citizens who are fighting in the contested region, are residents in that region, or of Ukraine, and also some Russian citizens (and this does not deny that perhaps some of other countries’ citizens are fighting there, inasmuch as American mercenaries have already been noted to have been participating on the Ukrainian Government’s side (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html)), who “are members of illegal armed groups,” meaning fighters who are not paid by any government, but instead are just “individual citizens” (as opposed to foreign-government-paid ones). General Muzhenko also says, emphatically, that the “Ukrainian army is not fighting with the regular units of the Russian army.”

In other words: He is explicitly and clearly denying the very basis for the EU’s sanctions against Russia, and for the U.S.’s sanctions against Russia: all of the sanctions against Russia are based on the falsehood that Ukraine is fighting against “the regular units of the Russian army” — i.e., against the Russian-Government-controlled-and-trained fighting forces.

The allegation to the effect that Ukraine is instead fighting against “regular units of the Russian army” is the allegation that Vladimir Putin’s Russia has invaded Ukraine, and it is the entire basis for the economic sanctions that are in force against Russia.

Those sanctions should therefore be immediately removed, with apology, and with compensation being paid to all individuals who have been suffering them; and it is therefore incumbent upon the Russian Government to pursue, through all legally available channels, restitution, plus damages, against the perpetrators of that dangerous fraud — and the news reports have already made clear precisely whom those persons are, who have asserted, as public officials, what can only be considered to be major libel.

Otherwise, Ukraine’s top general should be fired, for asserting what he has just asserted.

If what General Muzhenko says is true, then he is a hero for having risked his entire career by having gone public with this courageous statement. And, if what he says is false, then he has no place heading Ukraine’s military.

Investigative historian Eric Zuesse is the author, most recently, of They’re Not Even Close: The Democratic vs. Republican Economic Records, 1910-2010 (http://www.amazon.com/Theyre-Not-Even-Close-Democratic/dp/1880026090/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1339027537&sr=8-9), and of CHRIST’S VENTRILOQUISTS: The Event that Created Christianity (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B007Q1H4EG).

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Is this supposed to be a response to me?

[ckaihatsu]

Is this supposed to be a response to me?


Nope. I'm done with ya.


= D

[cyu]

isnt that just centralization into smaller areas?


If region A attacks region B, what is the best solution?

If people within region X are attacking each other, what should region Y do?

[cyu]

all the same your articles here clearly present a specific interpretation of events


I don't know where you live, but from where I live, I feel no need to present the official view of the US government since we're already inundated with that on a daily basis, including by media sources that pretend to be independent.

[ckaihatsu]

If you want an anarchist answer to Ukraine, then I believe it should be broken up - into as many sovereign bodies as the locals desire. That's my general answer to Scotland, Northern Ireland, and Basque areas of Spain as well. Decentralization to the individual level if necessary.





isnt that just centralization into smaller areas? cause those new countries wouldnt be anything other than what rest ukraine and new russia is now. still centralized as shit only on a smaller lever.





If region A attacks region B, what is the best solution?

If people within region X are attacking each other, what should region Y do?


I agree with PL on this, and your response is vague and evasive, at best. (Also tribalistic.)

[cyu]

If region A (West Ukraine, Britain, Madrid) attacks region B (East Ukraine, Scotland, Basque areas), what is the best solution? Region A has no right to claim control of region B. If region B wants to ignore region A, they have every right to do so, and deserve to be protected.

If people within region X (Ukraine, Israel/Palestine) are attacking each other, what should region Y (US/Russia, The West/Arab nations) do? Region Y shouldn't have to get involved, but if they do want to get involved, then they should protect life, on all sides. Judge who to protect by the action, not by who is involved. If person 1 is attacking person 2, don't ask what group either belongs to, but stop person 1 from attacking person 2, with lethal force if necessary.

[John Nada]

5-3. The mission of PSYOP is to influence the behavior of foreign target audiences to support US national objectives. PSYOP accomplishes this by conveying selected information and advising on actions that influence the emotions, motives, objective reasoning, and ultimately the behavior of foreign audiences. Behavioral change is at the root of the PSYOP mission. Although concerned with the mental processes of the target audience, it is the observable modification of target audience behavior that determines the mission success of PSYOP. Leaders and Soldiers must recognize that everything they do or choose not to do has a psychological impact.This whole things got PSYOP written all over it. The org mention in the video is probably a front(that even operates in the US!). It's like they don't even give a fuck it's so obvious(perhaps intentionally). They gather SIGINTEL(info from electronic communications/"social media") and spread "products"(propaganda) to make the people support interests closer to the US. And PSYOP isn't some mind-control conspiracy shit. It's an integral part of war(and policing). Read up on it. A lot of what the governments, police, military, corporations, the media, NGOs and rebels around the world do might make more sense.

I think something probably would've happened in Ukraine without foreign support, however the protests might have gone in a different direction or would've been less effective(perhaps ineffective) without US support. You can't mobilized that many people without some legit grievances. Nor could it just spontaneously pop out of the blue. Psy-Ops takes advantage of that, ensured that when their agitation finally boils over, a favorable result ensures.

This is a proxy war between NATO and SCO.

[ckaihatsu]

This is a proxy war between NATO and SCO.


The US arming of Ukraine and the danger of World War III

3 February 2015

The World Socialist Web Site unequivocally condemns plans being worked out by the Obama administration to arm the right-wing regime in Ukraine with billions of dollars in advanced weaponry. These moves threaten to spark a direct conflict between the US and Russia, two nuclear-armed powers, and ignite a Third World War.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/03/pers-f03.html

[Hexen]

The US arming of Ukraine and the danger of World War III

3 February 2015

The World Socialist Web Site unequivocally condemns plans being worked out by the Obama administration to arm the right-wing regime in Ukraine with billions of dollars in advanced weaponry. These moves threaten to spark a direct conflict between the US and Russia, two nuclear-armed powers, and ignite a Third World War.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/03/pers-f03.html

The World Socialist Web Site is the "leftist" version of infowars and they've been known for spewing WWIII predictions for every proxy conflicts so far that didn't happen at all.

[ckaihatsu]

The World Socialist Web Site is the "leftist" version of infowars


That's a little *too* much of a stretch....





and they've been known for spewing WWIII predictions for every proxy conflicts so far that didn't happen at all.


Noted, and I tend to agree that it tends to be on the sensationalist side of things, but it's also a valid observation -- better to be forewarned than not, etc.

[Hexen]

Noted, and I tend to agree that it tends to be on the sensationalist side of things, but it's also a valid observation -- better to be forewarned than not, etc.

I just don't see how arming Ukarine would lead towards a third world war and it would take much more than that which isn't very likely because for one is forgetting the fact that why proxy wars exist in the first place. Also sometimes being "forewarned" is another excuse for fear mongering I suppose.

[ckaihatsu]

I just don't see how arming Ukarine would lead towards a third world war and it would take much more than that which isn't very likely which is forgetting for one of the reasons why proxy wars exist in the first place. Also sometimes being "forewarned" is another excuse for fear mongering I suppose.


My thinking is that the continued global economic stagnation 'encourages' the powers-that-be, like Kerry, to 'need' some serious geopolitical distractions, like Ukraine and ISIS. Perhaps most of the vitriol about Russia *is* fearmongering, yet there's still the objective fact of NATO encirclement around it.

[Hexen]

yet there's still the objective fact of NATO encirclement around it.

I hope you're not suggesting some fringe horror with this.

[ckaihatsu]

I hope you're not suggesting some fringe horror with this.


I'm sorry, I don't understand your meaning here.

[Hexen]

I'm sorry, I don't understand your meaning here.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeHorror

[ckaihatsu]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FridgeHorror


Oh, you mean left over from the Cold War...(?)

You don't have to tell *me* -- I'm just a guy in front of a screen and keyboard. Tell *them* -- without some bullshit to warm up and serve to the world, like Cold-War-type scaremongering about Russia, reality (global economic stagnation) lingers and threatens to bite them in the ass.

My point stands, though, about NATO encirclement.

And so now we're back to the WSWS analysis of the Ukraine proxy war and the wider conflagration it threatens to bring about.

[Hexen]

And so now we're back to the WSWS analysis of the Ukraine proxy war and the wider conflagration it threatens to bring about.

But then again maybe you should stop reading WSWS especially because it's run by psudeo-leftists (although I can't remember the details).

[ckaihatsu]

But then again maybe you should stop reading WSWS especially because it's run by psudeo-leftists (although I can't remember the details).


So you're going off-topic to tell me to go off-topic -- ?

You realize that's very *far* from being convincing, right -- ?

[Hexen]

So you're going off-topic to tell me to go off-topic -- ?

You realize that's very *far* from being convincing, right -- ?

I think you may have gone 'off topic' by posting a alarmist article whose site comes from David North and his staff (The Socialist Equality Party) that their main motive is to sell books which says alot who they are.

That's why you need to be becareful what you read before going all excited about it...

[ckaihatsu]

I think you may have gone 'off topic'


Nope, that was you, since you started off addressing the topic of the thread but then went off on a tangent to be sectarian.





by posting a alarmist article whose site comes from David North and his staff (The Socialist Equality Party) that their main motive is to sell books which says alot who they are.


More sectarianism....





That's why you need to be becareful what you read before going all excited about it...


Actually I've given a rather *measured* response:





[I] tend to agree that [the WSWS] tends to be on the sensationalist side of things, but it's also a valid observation -- better to be forewarned than not, etc.

[Hexen]

More sectarianism....

However you also seem to forget that David North's printing company is non-union, a far cry from being 'socialist' at all.

[ckaihatsu]

However you also seem to forget that David North's printing company is non-union, a far cry from being 'socialist' at all.


I've heard that before. You seem to forget that we're not in socialism yet.

[Hexen]

I've heard that before. You seem to forget that we're not in socialism yet.

Yeah like "are we there yet?"

Then again, I have better things to do with arguing with a link and charts guy...

[ckaihatsu]

Yeah like "are we there yet?"

Then again, I have better things to do with arguing with a link and charts guy...


Good -- feel better now -- ?

Anything to keep you from taking it out on the kids and dog....

[ckaihatsu]

U.S. Congress Readies $1 Billion For War In Ukraine


http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/249918.html

Interfax-Ukraine
February 11, 2015

U.S. congress prepares bill on providing $1 bln to arm Ukraine


Republicans and Democrats in the U.S. Congress have prepared a bill on the provision of $1 billion in lethal defensive aid to Ukraine.

The proposed bill envisages the provision of training, equipment and lethal defensive weapons to the security forces of Ukraine through September 30, 2017.

Member of the U.S. House Armed Services Committee, Congressman Adam Smith told reporters: "It seems Russia has decided to go back to the Cold War."

In his words, the introduction of economic sanctions has not changed Russian President Vladimir Putin's plans.
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[cyu]

I just don't see how arming Ukarine would lead towards a third world war

When the US foreign policy establishment arms Egypt, it isn't actually arming Egypt is it? It's arming a subsection of Egypt - the ruling class, so that it can more easily make the rest of Egypt obey. You'd be a fool to believe that American military involvement is ever to protect anybody's lives - it is always to support those who have agreed to do their bidding - it is part of the power projection of the American foreign policy establishment. They cast the "light" of weapons on to their various puppets around the world, and the shadows fall on the locals.

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