Pirates were Socialists?

[Marxizm]

Im sure we have all heard that Pirates made some of the first Democracies ever, but did you guys also know they were essentially hardcore Socialists? Not only were they Democratic, they had workers compensation if you got injured and they shared the wealth equally! I was watching a pirate show called "Black Sails" (which is really good btw) and I saw the pirates saying very Socialistic things like telling the sailors they captured that the sailors are slaves to the wage of the captain and they dont really want to fight etc, and I got to thinking.....were the pirates Socialists? So I looked it up, and this is what I found, they pretty much were Socialists!! :laugh: I also found a facebook of a Communist Pirate Party in Canada lol, would love one of those here.

From wikipedia (cant post links yet im new, btw, hello ;) )
"Unlike traditional Western societies of the time, many Caribbean pirate crews of European descent operated as limited democracies. Pirate communities were some of the first to instate a system of checks and balances similar to the one used by the present-day United States and many other countries. The first record of such a government aboard a pirate sloop dates to the 17th century.[45]
Both the captain and the quartermaster were elected by the crew. They, in turn, appointed the ship's other officers. The captain of a pirate ship was often a fierce fighter in whom the men could place their trust, rather than a more traditional authority figure sanctioned by an elite. However, when not in battle, the quartermaster usually had the real authority. Many groups of pirates shared in whatever they seized. Pirates injured in battle thus might be afforded special compensation similar to medical or disability insurance.
There are contemporary records that many pirates placed a portion of any captured money into a central fund that was used to compensate the injuries sustained by the crew. Lists show standardised payments of 600 pieces of eight ($156,000 in modern currency) for the loss of a leg down to 100 pieces ($26,800) for loss of an eye. Often all of these terms were agreed upon and written down by the pirates, but these articles could also be used as incriminating proof that they were outlaws."

I wish this were brought up more, its a very interesting subject in my opinion.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Insurance funds and democracy aren't socialist. Unless there is a secret report that no one is aware of that outlines how pirates fought for the socialisation of the means of production, the abolition of wage labour etc., then no, they weren't socialists. In general I find the romanticisation of pirates to be absurd. Pirates weren't ineffectual oafs who all inexplicably spoke in a West Country accent, and they certainly weren't working-class heroes. In fact many of them started as agents of the state.

[Rudolf]

In fact many of them started as agents of the state.

You've got to be careful here as there was the press gang. there has been a long history of people forced into navies against their will. Tbh, we should be looking at the press gang and any ensuing mutinies of these people as class struggle.

[Thirsty Crow]

Insurance funds and democracy aren't socialist. Unless there is a secret report that no one is aware of that outlines how pirates fought for the socialisation of the means of production, the abolition of wage labour etc., then no, they weren't socialists. In general I find the romanticisation of pirates to be absurd. Pirates weren't ineffectual oafs who all inexplicably spoke in a West Country accent, and they certainly weren't working-class heroes. In fact many of them started as agents of the state.
Of course, the usage of the term in OP should have been rhetorical and metaphorical. I don't think there is any basis for a literal claim that the Atlantic piracy was marked by any kind of modern socialism.

But it was a really interesting historical phenomenon, and I don't think that strong aspects of egalitarianism and even some forms of class struggle can be denied. It would seem that this latter is best described as a kind of a retreat from the then existing structures of power, but one that included outright antagonism. I'm not sure if this egalitarianism is overstated in some materials I've read on the issue, but the historical record at least speaks for the idea that it did exist.

I think OP might be interested in some articles on this over at libcom: http://libcom.org/history/articles/pirates-piracy-atlantic-golden-age

http://libcom.org/library/pirate-utopias-under-banner-death

As a loosely related sidenote, how I wish something like Pirates of the Carribbean was based not on what it was, but some romaticized high sea rebel story along those historical lines strongly emphasized in the latter article.

[KurtFF8]

A few years ago I took a trip to Chicago for vacation and visited the Field Museum's exhibit on pirates. It was quite interesting and it seemed they were putting forward a similar narrative of pirates as a relatively progressive force for that era.

They discussed how the leaders were rarely making any more then the crew, how many pirate ships were liberated slave ships, the loot was shared equally, etc.

Here's a link to the exhibit which is now in different places http://www.premierexhibitions.com/exhibitions/2/2/real-pirates

I believe there's a book about the subject of early pirates and their relationship to more modern anarchism. Perhaps it's related to the libcom links posted above.

[Marxizm]

A few years ago I took a trip to Chicago for vacation and visited the Field Museum's exhibit on pirates. It was quite interesting and it seemed they were putting forward a similar narrative of pirates as a relatively progressive force for that era.

They discussed how the leaders were rarely making any more then the crew, how many pirate ships were liberated slave ships, the loot was shared equally, etc.

Here's a link to the exhibit which is now in different places

I believe there's a book about the subject of early pirates and their relationship to more modern anarchism. Perhaps it's related to the libcom links posted above.


You've got to be careful here as there was the press gang. there has been a long history of people forced into navies against their will. Tbh, we should be looking at the press gang and any ensuing mutinies of these people as class struggle.

Yeah they seem more like libertarian/anarchist type socialists to me. So you guys agree for the most part there is a Socialist element to the Pirates eh? Good stuff, I thought too many would try to distance themselves from pirates because of the age old propaganda about them being evil monster plunderers with knives in their mouths :rolleyes: Im sure many were, but not all of them.

Thanks for the libcom links btw very interesting stuff

[RedSonRising]

I read a real interesting piece on pirate mini-democracies aboard ships for a class once, I should dig it up again.

[Blake's Baby]

Some pirates practiced relatively equal wealth-distribution (I've heard that sometimes captains were limited to 2 or 3 times the share of an ordinary crewman. Some crews elected their captains. But 'all' pirates - I presume this refers to pirates in the 16th-18th centuries? Hardly. As Xhar-xhar Binks says, many of them were operating as state agents. Always useful if adventurers are attacking your enemies - saves you the trouble of actually sending your navy to far-flung corners of the world.

... 'the first democracies'? The assemblies of Greece predated the 'golden age' of piracy by 2,000 years or so, descriptions of Saxon crews operating as democracies 'where every oarsman is a captain' by 1,000 years. The Icelandic state was founded as a sort-of democracy around 600 years before there were European pirates in the Caribbean, and there is some evidence at least that some of the polities that the Vikings founded (for example in Eastern England) opearated as rough democracies in the 9th century.

[Palmares]

Quite a few years ago I went to a workshop at an anarchist bookfair, perhaps the Montreal one, where there was a workshop on anarchism and pirates. I thought it was some joke, but it was actually a fairly well researched thesis. Give or take some bias of course. I don't personally see the appeal, but if some fantasy romanticism floats your revolutionary boat (in real life!), then good luck to them! :lol:

Some links on the matter:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_utopia

http://secure.pmpress.org/index.php?l=product_detail&p=155

http://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-life-under-the-jolly-roger

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You've got to be careful here as there was the press gang. there has been a long history of people forced into navies against their will. Tbh, we should be looking at the press gang and any ensuing mutinies of these people as class struggle.

Sure, but as far as I know, impressment was not used widely (or at all) by privateer vessels, and former and current privateers made up the majority of pirates. In fact the strict distinction between the two is something of a later invention.


Of course, the usage of the term in OP should have been rhetorical and metaphorical. I don't think there is any basis for a literal claim that the Atlantic piracy was marked by any kind of modern socialism.

But it was a really interesting historical phenomenon, and I don't think that strong aspects of egalitarianism and even some forms of class struggle can be denied. It would seem that this latter is best described as a kind of a retreat from the then existing structures of power, but one that included outright antagonism. I'm not sure if this egalitarianism is overstated in some materials I've read on the issue, but the historical record at least speaks for the idea that it did exist.

I am sure it did, but it seems to have been the egalitarianism of a business enterprise. As for a retreat from the existing structures of power, I am not sure this was the case. As I said, the line between privateering and piracy was thin, with captains like Kidd being viewed as privateers or pirates depending on the circumstances, including political patronage.

[Blake's Baby]

Militant worker-cops, possibly, in the 'best' cases. Murderous mafia-like gangs in other cases, and out-and-out state agents in others. And the same people operating in all ways at different times I'd think.

[consuming negativity]

Some pirates practiced relatively equal wealth-distribution (I've heard that sometimes captains were limited to 2 or 3 times the share of an ordinary crewman. Some crews elected their captains. But 'all' pirates - I presume this refers to pirates in the 16th-18th centuries? Hardly. As Xhar-xhar Binks says, many of them were operating as state agents. Always useful if adventurers are attacking your enemies - saves you the trouble of actually sending your navy to far-flung corners of the world.

... 'the first democracies'? The assemblies of Greece predated the 'golden age' of piracy by 2,000 years or so, descriptions of Saxon crews operating as democracies 'where every oarsman is a captain' by 1,000 years. The Icelandic state was founded as a sort-of democracy around 600 years before there were European pirates in the Caribbean, and there is some evidence at least that some of the polities that the Vikings founded (for example in Eastern England) opearated as rough democracies in the 9th century.

do you have links to any of the historical democracy-related stuff in the last paragraph? except for greece - most people in the west know about greek democracy i think.

[Lord Testicles]

I think Blake's Baby might be referring to a Thing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_%28assembly%29

[jullia]

There is a legend about a group of pirates who create a socialist society in an caraibes island.
A serie have been made on it with malkovitch but i can't remember the name.

[Blake's Baby]

do you have links to any of the historical democracy-related stuff in the last paragraph? except for greece - most people in the west know about greek democracy i think.

There's a short piece form Sidonius Apollinarius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidonius_Apollinaris) I think, who describes the habits of the Saxons (who he also calls 'pirates')and says that they decide their courses either by casting lots or by holding a council - that's where the phrase about 'every oarsman being a captain' comes from, because there was apparently (according to Apollinarius) no distinction as to who could speak or be listened to (or maybe he was just emphasising how uncivilised they were, who knows?).

As Skinz says the Icelandic 'thing' (lots of 'things' everywhere the Vikings went, the Manx 'Tynwald (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tynwaldhttp://)' or parliament was originally the 'thing-vellir', the 'assembly-plain', which is the same name as the Icelandic one) was a kind of assembly for deciding policy and law.

There are hints that the Five Boroughs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Boroughs_of_the_Danelaw) of Eastern England (Viking military settlements) might have been organised similarly to Greek democracies with voting soldier-farmers - there's a reference to someone (can't remember who) being 'acclaimed by the whole army, both Danish and English' (mentioned by Michael Wood in one of his books about English history and archaeology) which suggests that there was some kind of 'assembly of the (armed, landholding but not racially-divided) people' in Leicester or wherever (and that the other Boroughs might function in similar fashion).

I forgot to mention the Bacudae (or Bagudae) who were - perhaps - peasant bandits who adopted militant social egalitarianism as an ideology in the 4th-6th centuries in Gaul and Hispania (possibly Britain too). But again, perhaps the description of their their egalitarianism and lack of respect for their 'betters' was intended to offend Roman sensibilities, who knows? No wiki page for them interestingly enough.

[Marxizm]

Some pirates practiced relatively equal wealth-distribution (I've heard that sometimes captains were limited to 2 or 3 times the share of an ordinary crewman. Some crews elected their captains. But 'all' pirates - I presume this refers to pirates in the 16th-18th centuries? Hardly. As Xhar-xhar Binks says, many of them were operating as state agents. Always useful if adventurers are attacking your enemies - saves you the trouble of actually sending your navy to far-flung corners of the world.

... 'the first democracies'? The assemblies of Greece predated the 'golden age' of piracy by 2,000 years or so, descriptions of Saxon crews operating as democracies 'where every oarsman is a captain' by 1,000 years. The Icelandic state was founded as a sort-of democracy around 600 years before there were European pirates in the Caribbean, and there is some evidence at least that some of the polities that the Vikings founded (for example in Eastern England) opearated as rough democracies in the 9th century.

"some of the first democracies" not "THE first democracies", big difference there buddy. Yes those places had Democracies, but at this time Democracy, even in Greece, was very rare so they deserve credit where credit is due.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Socialists? No, not really. But then again, capitalism as we know it didn't really exist during the Golden Age of Piracy anyway. Mercantilism was still the name of the game back then.

That being said, pirates...specifically those of the 'Republic of Pireates' in the Bahamas...did have an unusually egalitarian and even pseudo-anarchistic way of 'governance'. All ships from the 'pirate republic' were run democratically, with each ship dividing up its treasure equally among the crew men (with a little more for the captain, if it was allowed). Every ship's captain was elected by popular vote, and could be recalled at almost any time. They also had a level of racial egalitarianism that was nonexistent outside of pirate circles. The only 'law' that governed the pirates was the so-called Pirate Code, which all agreed to follow.

Of course, the pirate republic ultimately self-destructed since it relied entirely on plunder to enrich its economy. Although they originally agreed to avoid raiding British ships, they eventually reneged on that agreement, which ultimately brought the wrath of the British crown upon them.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Socialists? No, not really. But then again, capitalism as we know it didn't really exist during the Golden Age of Piracy anyway. Mercantilism was still the name of the game back then.

That being said, pirates...specifically those of the 'Republic of Pireates' in the Bahamas...did have an unusually egalitarian and even pseudo-anarchistic way of 'governance'. All ships from the 'pirate republic' were run democratically, with each ship dividing up its treasure equally among the crew men (with a little more for the captain, if it was allowed). Every ship's captain was elected by popular vote, and could be recalled at almost any time. They also had a level of racial egalitarianism that was nonexistent outside of pirate circles. The only 'law' that governed the pirates was the so-called Pirate Code, which all agreed to follow.

Of course, the pirate republic ultimately self-destructed since it relied entirely on plunder to enrich its economy. Although they originally agreed to avoid raiding British ships, they eventually reneged on that agreement, which ultimately brought the wrath of the British crown upon them.
Any good books you can recommend on this region/time period/group of people?

[Blake's Baby]

"some of the first democracies" not "THE first democracies", big difference there buddy. Yes those places had Democracies, but at this time Democracy, even in Greece, was very rare so they deserve credit where credit is due.

'... at this time', ie a 2,000 year period? I don't really understand what 'some of the first democracies' is supposed to mean when the time period you're discussing is 2,000 years long and contains many examples of 'democracies' before the pirates.

There were probably more democracies in 900 or 1500 than in 1900. It's just that in 1900 the democracies were bigger. You may as well claim that the pirates were 'some of the last democracies'.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Any good books you can recommend on this region/time period/group of people?

The Republic of Pirates by Colin Woodard.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Empire of Blue Water is a good one as well