Would you leave us?

[TheBigREDOne]

I see lots of people here say they reject moralism, that they're leftists because it's on their class interests. Well if you woke up one day to find that somehow your the owner of a successful business, with all that title entails( riches, ownership of the means of production, exploitation of workers, etc.). Would you really abandon the socialist cause? If not what would you do? Just a hypothetical question.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I would probably be less enthusiastic about it. It's easy to say that I'd still be committed, but after a number of years of living a cushy life where I didnt have to see the workers day to day struggles first hand, I would probably become detached and the revolutionary fervor would wear away over the years. Socialism just wouldn't be an immediate need for me and I'd probably just get preoccupied with other things in my life, as much I hate to say it. I would still be sympathetic to the cause though

[RedWorker]

Slightly related side note: I don't think it's a contradiction for a communist to belong to the capitalist class. Capitalism will not be defeated based on certain individuals avoiding becoming capitalists. Suggesting the otherwise would be idealism.

[Creative Destruction]

i've always had romantic fantasies of funneling money into revolutionary organizations, if i were rich.

[Redistribute the Rep]

i've always had romantic fantasies of funneling money into revolutionary organizations, if i were rich.

I would be scared of my bourgie friends finding out, being in a position of power and influence while being a communist would be pretty dangerous, I would imagine. But I guess that's what would make this fantasy more interesting

[RedWorker]

Not really, it's being an average person and being a communist that's dangerous.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

As Gregor Samsa awoke one morning from uneasy dreams, he found himself transformed in his bed into a gigantic bourgeois creature.

Man's consciousness is chiefly, in aggregate, determined by his social being. I imagine that it would take me, a not particularly strong-willed or guilt-driven individual, about a week to "forget" the scientific analysis of society that was important to me and discover the joys of Hard Work (TM) and Market Efficiency (TM). (I am ignoring issues of sexuality etc. here.)

In fact I have seen the same process play out several times. One example sticks in my mind; a woman I was extremely close to, whoo, seven years ago terrifyingly, who went from being the most left-wing member of my circle of friends (at the time I was pretty much a social-democrat), to being bog standard liberal scum, proportionally to the amount of money she had in her account (she was always from a petit-bourgeois background, but had problems with her family and so on; they reconciled and Little Miss Radical got a few savings accounts).

[Palmares]

Just tell Vassilis Palaiokostas and he'll sort out robbing you, me, or whoever is sleeping with too many benjamins. So best to donate a bunch to avoid such an encounter.

[BIXX]

9554

The picture is incredibly related.

[John Nada]

Would you really abandon the socialist cause?No. I would know what the other 90% of the world goes through. I think the cause is humanity's only hope. It's bigger than one person. I'd be more worried about friends and family becoming reactionaries, and having kids that become spoiled reactionary brats.
If not what would you do?Fund revolutionaries and get high as fuck.

[Culicarius]

Well if it just suddenly happened then I'd still hold all of my beliefs, and I think I'd be hyper aware of the possibility of my newly found wealth influencing my thoughts. I'd do all I can to remember where I am. Since this scenario would mean all of my family and friends and acquaintances are still in the working class I think that alone would help to keep me from steering off.

That said, I imagine this would come with some influence as well, so why not try and use it as a platform to get people to question capitalism and the beliefs that they hold? I always figured if somehow I were to become famous and/or rich that I would be in a position to raise awareness and donate money to organizations I support.

[jullia]

In fact I have seen the same process play out several times. One example sticks in my mind; a woman I was extremely close to, whoo, seven years ago terrifyingly, who went from being the most left-wing member of my circle of friends (at the time I was pretty much a social-democrat), to being bog standard liberal scum, proportionally to the amount of money she had in her account (she was always from a petit-bourgeois background, but had problems with her family and so on; they reconciled and Little Miss Radical got a few savings accounts).

This exemple is cleary not an exception. In the country i live, more than class interest, leftist is a style to adopt. A good proportion of young leftist are coming from rich family. Their revolutionary position is a bit like "a game" or a "trend" during their student life and after step by step they become closer with the social democrat and right position.
I saw one of them who lie on their income to get state help and said she was coming from poor background.

To answear to the question, you never totally change your mind but you can't be sure if you will not change.

[Quail]

I think it's hard to say, because obviously now I'm not very well off, communism would benefit me immensely, anarchist ways of organising can and do benefit me, etc. If I woke up tomorrow as a wealthy business owner, I think it would be extremely arrogant of me to claim that I would be completely immune to the effect my new position in society would have on my world view. A business owner who hires staff to do their dirty work is already acting against the interests of the working class, and they must continue to do so in order to maintain their position. I don't think it would be possible to own and run a business (unless it's something like a worker's co-op) without compromising your principles, no matter how noble your intentions.

[Luís Henrique]

I see lots of people here say they reject moralism, that they're leftists because it's on their class interests. Well if you woke up one day to find that somehow your the owner of a successful business, with all that title entails( riches, ownership of the means of production, exploitation of workers, etc.). Would you really abandon the socialist cause? If not what would you do? Just a hypothetical question.

Give me the money, and we shall find out...

Luís Henrique

[Invader Zim]

Slightly related side note: I don't think it's a contradiction for a communist to belong to the capitalist class. Capitalism will not be defeated based on certain individuals avoiding becoming capitalists. Suggesting the otherwise would be idealism.

Wait, you mean like Engels?

[RedKobra]

I have no interest in being rich, none what so ever.
And what would be the point? If you believe, as I imagine most of us do that the working class ARE going to rise up at some point which end of the pitch fork do you want to be on?

[BIXX]

I suspect we currently have about 12 liars who've responded to this poll.

[RedKobra]

I suspect we currently have about 12 liars who've responded to this poll.

You can suspect what you like. I don't play the lottery, I don't gamble. I won't be getting an inheritance and wouldn't accept it anyway. I wouldn't own my own business and leach off of the labour of others... I have no interest in being rich, never have been rich, never want to be. If money fell into my lap I'd give it to a charity as fast as I could.

[motion denied]

Would leave you without leaving a note or looking back.

:thumbup:

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I doubt I would abandon my outlook, I would probably just do a lot of drugs and stop taking things seriously

[consuming negativity]

I suspect we currently have about 12 liars who've responded to this poll.

there is a 0% chance i would ever change my entire world view because of randomly, hypothetically, being given control over a random company.

most likely it'd just be some failing small business or ice cream truck, but even if it wasn't, why wouldn't i just be like "fuck yeah!" and use the power to my own ends?

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i've always wanted to be a class traitor

[robot]

marx himself said that in every revolution some of the elite join with the revolutionaries, and if you subscribe to orthodox marxist dialects then no matter your position, you believe the revolution will happen

[Creative Destruction]

I don't play the lottery, I don't gamble.

i do both. part of it is "fuck, i wish i had enough money to just concentrate on school" but the other part of it is that gambling is just fun.

[Rafiq]

I see lots of people here say they reject moralism, that they're leftists because it's on their class interests. Well if you woke up one day to find that somehow your the owner of a successful business, with all that title entails( riches, ownership of the means of production, exploitation of workers, etc.). Would you really abandon the socialist cause? If not what would you do? Just a hypothetical question.

You cannot be dedicated to Communism, you cannot be a Leftist today simply because "it's in your class interest". All Communists today, regardless of their personal class backgrounds, are Communists as members of the intelligentsia. Without the pre-requisite of a Communist movement, to talk of class interest would be ridiculous. The language of class consciousness does not even exist today. Communism as an ideology is only attainable or identifiable through rigorous intellectual, theoretical and dare I say spiritual discipline (Don't fuck with me everyone, you know what I mean) - what we do possess is an immense historical legacy and tradition from which we are able to identify with the cause of the commons.

That is not to say a Communist movement will be compromised of mindless drones - the point is that a Communist movement will establish its own standards of language and would constitute an ideological universe independent of ruling ideas, a disciplined theoretical justification for the perpetuation of Communist ideas would be unnecessary, enshrined in the very struggle itself. In these moments wherein class struggle is almost non-existent, to be a Communist is a very difficult thing. In case there is any confusion, no one is arguing that personal experience as members of the proletariat can be a substantial form of vitalizing revolutionary conviction. But that in times without the mass movement, these experiences would simply expound, reinforce or strengthen convictions only attainable by the intelligentsia - by simply living as a worker with the most rich experiences one could imagine - without the existence of a Communist ideological universe, to articulate these experiences in a conscious manner is impossible without theoretical, intellectual discipline.

So as a conclusion - I would expect that most honest Leftists would utilize successful businesses for a greater ends - or, if that is too much to expect, that to be in such a position economically would not render their conviction obsolete. If it would - then the foundations of belief are dishonest to begin with. As Marxists, it is necessary to articulate the perspectives of other classes as rationally explicable and not simply "fuck you I disagree". No, they are true insofar as they represent real class interests. Absolute truth is only attainable through the sum total of relative truths.

[Rafiq]

Slightly related side note: I don't think it's a contradiction for a communist to belong to the capitalist class. Capitalism will not be defeated based on certain individuals avoiding becoming capitalists. Suggesting the otherwise would be idealism.

To further expound, if the ability to become members of the capitalist class were so widespread there would most likely be no classes at all anyway.

[BIXX]

(Don't fuck with me everyone, you know what I mean)

Honestly, and I'm not trying to fuck with you, I don't. That's generally why I fuck with you.

[LiaSofia]

I think socialism is the best, fairest and most efficient system and that wouldn't change just because I won the lottery or got promoted to manager or something. I find it strange that anyone would suddenly abandon their whole perspective because they happened to become one of the 'lucky' ones.

So in answer to your question, no. The only thing I would do is move from where I live to somewhere nicer - not somewhere luxurious or expensive, just somewhere where the nearest ocean is warmer than the North Sea.

Editing this post to say that the concept of being a 'class traitor' isn't uncommon in my community. My mother, for example, was criticised for going to university which is pretty unfair IMO. But anyway...not sure where I was going with that.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

honestly if i came into wealth i know for a fact i would party like fred engels

[motion denied]

when i was a kid i wanted to win the lottery so that i could sign good players for my team

lol

[Luís Henrique]

dare I say spiritual discipline (Don't fuck with me everyone, you know what I mean)

Bad, bad, mental image of someone banging Ignácio de Loyola...

Argh.

Luís Henrique

[Prof. Oblivion]

I think it's tough, especially for those with more extreme views (and face it that's everyone here), who are more politically active and knowledgeable, to understand how fluid that belief structure can be under evolving circumstances.

To be honest, I think that most of the revolutionary left is hopelessly insular, and almost cult-like. Leftists seem to only hang out with other leftists, and in many cases don't allow people with differing viewpoints into their circle of friends. In that way beliefs become entrenched. It's surprising how different one can act and think if they voluntarily remove themselves from a situation like that. IMO it's a good thing to remove yourself from that situation if you find yourself in it. You won't necessarily become reactionary, but you do learn to think more independently about things and that the way of thinking that you had before isn't necessarily true, and the rigidity of your belief system loosens up a bit. You learn how pointless arguing about Trotskyism vs. Left Communism is, for example. This is I suppose what most people talk about when they say leftists aren't living in the "real world". And as lame as that statement is, it's true in a sense.

Anyways, I've been involved in a few things that have led me to thinking like a capitalist - serving on the board of a non-profit, for example, can cause you to make staffing decisions if you need to cut costs and that's the best way to do so to keep the organization going to serve your mission. It's surprising how gray the world really is when you take your black-and-white goggles off.

And this is somewhat tongue in cheek, but we're all little capitalists in the sense that because we all live in this system, we're all forced to manage our little pools of capital in some way or another.

[Comunero]

I would be unable and unwilling to manage a business. If I happened to magically obtain some means of production I would probably create a horizontal-as-possible cooperative, completely disassociate myself with it and continue doing what I had been doing.

At the moment I am a student and my father is a capitalist, so my immediate economic interests are not served by socialism as it stands.

[cyu]

I'm told my paternal grandfather was the wealthiest businessman in Fuzhou (China) before the communist revolution. After the revolution, he was labelled a "patriotic capitalist" and allowed to keep much of his wealth. As a result, I grew up in a stone mansion walled-off from the "unwashed masses" - so I'm already a bit of a class traitor.

On the other hand, neither I nor my parents were capitalists. My father made it to bottom-rung manager before retiring. If I were to start a legal business - that is, legal within the current capitalist framework - then I'd make it a cooperative. The less legal stuff I already advocate here xD

[bcbm]

I see lots of people here say they reject moralism, that they're leftists because it's on their class interests. Well if you woke up one day to find that somehow your the owner of a successful business, with all that title entails( riches, ownership of the means of production, exploitation of workers, etc.). Would you really abandon the socialist cause?

yep.

being determines consciousness

id ride my yacht into the sunset

[#FF0000]

gonna be honest here, I'd have a hard time adjusting and would end up living pretty simply beyond having an outrageous sound system, computer, and library. would probably hand over the business itself for some amount of stock that i'd be able to live off of without ever having to work again.

I've turned down promotions at the jobs I've had when they would have had me enforcing rules I thought were unfair, let alone maintaining an order I thought was unfair, so I doubt I'd be comfortable being at the top of this order.

[Slavic]

gonna be honest here, I'd have a hard time adjusting and would end up living pretty simply beyond having an outrageous sound system, computer, and library. would probably hand over the business itself for some amount of stock that i'd be able to live off of without ever having to work again.

I've turned down promotions at the jobs I've had when they would have had me enforcing rules I thought were unfair, let alone maintaining an order I thought was unfair, so I doubt I'd be comfortable being at the top of this order.

No need to live at the top of the order. Hedonistic luxury and an early death is all that is needed if you find yourself with enough wealth to never have to work again.

[Rafiq]

What is crucial to remember for everyone is that the proletariat are predisposed to Communism only insofar as they are unbound to that which chains them to the existing order by merit of (lack of) privilege. Proletarian culture as such, or the proletarian identity on its own is not Communist in nature, it reproduces the condition of the proletarian, and binds them to their place in the capitalist order. Communism ideologically is nothing more than the struggle of the commons, for emancipation of the proletariat from itself. It cannot ever be an elaboration of a given identity - the only reason they are predisposed is because they are willing to lose such an identity. Communism is the renunciation of the old gods, it is the disavowing of all that binds us to the conditions of private property and the present social order. Anyone can become a Communist so long as they place their faith in the struggle of the commons. This is why many of the heroes of the proletariat and our movement came from uniquely non-proletarian backgrounds: so much so to the point where it is almost impossible to find a paradigm of social background regarding many prominent Marxists. Because they renounce their past, they become unbound to it. It was Kun who said "My father was a Jew but I am no longer one, for I have become a Communist". That is not to say the proletariat is an instrument of Communism, but that they are the social force whose logical conclusion of its struggle can represent the affirmative damnation of the existing relations to production in a mass ecstasy called Communism.

The secret to Communism is that it represents the haunting finality of capitalism. It represents a truth unknowable to those bound in the employment of truth to reproduce the conditions of their existence, to those where truth can only ever be that truth which reinforces the existing relations of power - it makes bear their confusion as the frustration of a dying order. Other ideologues cannot, and never will be able to fathom the power of Communism for what it is, but we know them for what they are quite well. They have searched aimlessly for the causes of its power: A conspiracy, madness, misplaced naivety - none of which suffices.

It is a vulgarization of Marxism to attempt to repeat historic realities while being completely conscious of them as eternal laws of existence - the point is that the proletariat has nothing to lose and no means of social elaboration of its existence. Look at any point of reference in the history of our movement, of social upheaval and ask yourself if this was an organic expression of 'proletarian interests'. This is only the first step: To make the leap, to become Communists, becomes not only an organic expression of a specific group within our order - it supersedes the very identity of this specific group and the gates of hell are opened on the enemy.

[The Intransigent Faction]

No, I wouldn't abandon socialism. For one thing, the planet would still be damaged by capitalism no matter how much money I had.

Also, that kind of position is not necessarily secure, and even if it were, it would seem senseless to support a system which so blatantly squanders resources and people's potential.

[The Disillusionist]

Í understand the arguments against morality and all that, but really, I have no time for people who don't have some kind of conviction. They aren't even worth talking to, because they've got nothing genuine to say. If I thought talking to sociopaths was interesting, I'd just build myself a robot to talk to. They're every bit as mindless and predictable.

Besides, capitalism is a global system, and compared to most of the people on earth, we are all already rich by virtue of having computers. The "struggle of the working class" in developed countries is almost meaningless compared to the more severe struggle in the developing countries we get our products from.

I like to think that I would never abandon the leftist cause, not because my own position might change, as I'm already in a position of relative priviledge, but because I know the positions of others, and because I care about humanity.

[Gracchus R.]

There is many men in history who as fight for social justice while being aristocrats or bourgeois. Lenin was an aristocrats who decide to defend the proletarian class interest, as Trotsky, coming from the bourgeoisie. Engels was rich, Tolstoy was a count, etc. And how many poor have no class counsciousness and defend capitalism and injustice, many in the hope of being themselves masters.

And how can a true radical leftist become rich without betraying his belief ? For you can have a lot more than the others only by opressing them one way or another. Few are those who became rich without commeting injustices. Some peoples are born in opulence or are educated to believe that it is right, and then they realize the injustice of such a system and because of some form of consciousness, they decide to act or at least to condamn this system of exploitation.

[The Intransigent Faction]

capitalism is a global system...The "struggle of the working class" in developed countries is almost meaningless compared to the more severe struggle in the developing countries we get our products from.

Isn't that a self-contradiction? Sure, living standards for Western workers are better than those for sweatshop workers in other countries, but given that it's a global system, these struggles are inherently connected. Capitalists must be left with nowhere to run to avoid a proletariat struggling against capitalism or even for better conditions within it, and if struggles in one place push them to another, workers in the place they were pushed from will have to cooperate with workers in the place to which they were pushed.

That does bring up an interesting point, though. This thread is about the impact of a sudden reversal of the economic fortunes of a revolutionary on his or her class-consciousness, but an even more pertinent or real threat is the geographical distance between exploited workers in the West and exploited workers in the 'third world', due to the mobility of (at least a lot of) capital. That the term 'third-world' is so widely accepted really just demonstrates how such exploitation is perceived as so distant or separate from the lives of Western workers that it may as well be happening in another world. "Out of sight, out of mind" is a serious problem for revolutionaries to contend with regarding exploitation on an international scale (or indeed even a national or local scale).

So, in short, one does not have to be a 'third-worldist' to understand that if one can find common cause with workers struggling in even more severe conditions in distant places, then even the conscious distance from the workers' struggle brought on by a sudden reversal of fortunes won't necessarily lead one to abandon the socialist cause. Granted, geographical distance is very different from the 'distance' of occupying a different space on the current socioeconomic hierarchy. Nevertheless, a critical consciousness which is able to recognize exploitation whether or not it is occurring in front of its very eyes is not likely to become ignorant or dismissive of it by virtue of wealth or geographical distance, or at least won't do so easily.

[MarxistWorld]

I think that if i had hundreds of thousands of dollars or millions of dollars. I would be more communist than I am right now, and I would use that money to spread socialist propaganda, leftist philosophy to the poor people who are new to socialism. However I might be wrong, because when people live in the upper classes and try to be leftists, it is like a person who is a vegan, attending a party of meat eaters. So what I mean is that it is very very hard to try to be a leftist, when you live surrounded by upper class relatives and friends



I see lots of people here say they reject moralism, that they're leftists because it's on their class interests. Well if you woke up one day to find that somehow your the owner of a successful business, with all that title entails( riches, ownership of the means of production, exploitation of workers, etc.). Would you really abandon the socialist cause? If not what would you do? Just a hypothetical question.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Socialism isn't a cause. It's a political philosophy and yes, slightly, a moral outlook.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Socialism isn't a cause. It's a political philosophy and yes, slightly, a moral outlook.

Fair point. That was the word which came to mind at the time. Socialist movement is more accurate.

[Trap Queen Voxxy]

Nope scumbag is in my DNA

[Forward Union]

You won't have a choice, in the same way you don't willingly donate 50% of your income to homeless people, you won't want to make concessions to the workers.

[Stirnerian]

Not only would I not alter my policy positions, I think it would be a good idea for Leftists to pursue positions within the capitalist strata.

Face it: we've all reconciled ourselves to the fact that there will be no revolution in our lives, or that of the generation after, and probably not the one after that. Far from having been in late capitalism for decades, it seems apparent that early capitalism has only just ended, if it even has.

If we're going to succeed, we have to lay foundations for those in a future we'll never live to see. That means setting aside resources now, that means forming bonds with younger activists now, that means establishing institutions now.

[Forward Union]

If we're going to succeed, we have to lay foundations for those in a future we'll never live to see. That means setting aside resources now, that means forming bonds with younger activists now, that means establishing institutions now.

So your plan is, Step 1) to get a good job, 2) ???? three3) Communism

Sorry comrade, what you need to do is organise your workplace. Get your colleagues active in the Union. Win something, pay, holiday time, anything, make things better here and now, draw the battle lines between you and your boss and develop class consciousness. Show that we can win, that WE can change the entire narrative, power is in our hands. This is the absolute bedrock of all class struggle. Those are the institutions we need to move forward.

[Stirnerian]

I actually do have a plan of my own, an experiment in redistributing the means of production I wish some time to conduct. But it requires capital as do all things, and at present I'm unemployed. It's the first thing I intend to do when I get a job, though.

[Rudolf]

Hand me millions and i'll bankroll strikes.

[cyu]

Give a man a million dollars, he'll bankroll strikes for a day.

Teach a man to rob capitalists and he'll bankroll strikes for the rest of his life ;)