2015 UK General Election Poll

[The Idler]

2015 UK General Election Poll
Too early for a UK General Election thread?
Probably but here's a straw poll for who you would vote for
Please read all the replies before casting your vote
If other, please state

[BITW434]

My gut feeling is that the Labour Party will gain the most seats, whether that will be enough to have a majority is another question.

Personally, I will not be voting, for obvious reasons (bourgeois democracy is shit and so forth), and I don't think I'm the only one on here who won't be.

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm confused. There's no actual poll...

Unfortunately I no longer live in Nick Clegg's constituency (I'm just down the road from it now), otherwise I would have voted Green just to assist in splitting his vote in the hope he loses his seat...Although he would probably lose his seat to a Tory.

[The Feral Underclass]

From what is available, these are the scenarios as I see it:

1. Worst case scenario: UKIP Majority
2. Second worst scenario: Tory-UKIP coalition
3. Third worst scenario: Tory majority
4. Fourth worst scenario: Tory-Labour coalition
5. Meh scenario: Tory-Lib Dem coalition maintained
6. Fourth best scenario: Labour-Lib Dem coalition
7. Third best scenario: Labour majority
8. Second best scenario: Labour-SNP/Green coalition
9. Best case scenario: Green Majority

1 and 9 improbable
2 and 4 highly unlikely
3, 7 and 8 probably unlikely

5 and 6 most likely

[The Idler]

I'm confused. There's no actual poll...

Unfortunately I no longer live in Nick Clegg's constituency (I'm just down the road from it now), otherwise I would have voted Green just to assist in splitting his vote in the hope he loses his seat...Although he would probably lose his seat to a Tory.
Sorry just posted the poll now.
You can select multiple candidates in this poll.

[The Feral Underclass]

I don't know who is going to be on the ballet in my constituency, but it's a safe labour seat anyway, so assuming I wasn't going to vote for labour it would be pretty pointless voting since the labour candidate is likely to be returned whomever I vote for.

I chose Labour or Green. I'm fairly certain no left-wing socialist party is standing in my constituency.

[RedKobra]

I'll probably vote green. The ticket here is usually Tory (who have a huge majority), followed by Labour, The Greens, The Libdems, UKIP & The English Democrats. So as you can see, not a lot of choice & Labour have just about burnt as many bridges with me as they're going to get. Despite being a revolutionary it is desperately hard to not vote, so I almost certainly will. As for the makeup of the government, I'm expecting a 20 odd seat Labour majority, a Tory victory is very imrobable.

[The Feral Underclass]

I just realised I didn't even include a Tory-Labour coalition. It seems more likely that UKIP will win a majority that the Tories and Labour for a coalition.

[RedKobra]

You've missed out a Labour majority.

[The Feral Underclass]

I edited my post.

[RA89]

Labour. Anything to get the Tories out.

[LiaSofia]

Labour. Anything to get the Tories out.

I've always done this even though my constituency has historically been solidly Labour-voting. This year, though, I'm considering not voting at all. The Tories are marginally worse than Labour but really how much difference does it make? Modern day Labour is at best a centrist party and I'd say that the last time the two parties were really distinguishable would have been in the 80s (before I was born!). On the other hand, I've witnessed the rise of UKIP support in my area and as much as I dislike Labour, there's no doubt that I'd vote for them as a protest against the truly right-wing groups.

That leaves the other option, which is to vote for one of the smaller parties, such as the Greens or one of the socialist groups. The problem there is that the genuinely left-wing parties are too tiny to make an impact, so it's a pointless vote unless they put their differences aside one day to create one larger Socialist Party that encompasses all of the smaller ones. Otherwise they may as well not exist. I'm never sure about the Green Party - they're preferable to Tories/Labour/Lib Dems I suppose.

Should we be worried about UKIP? A fuss was made about the BNP but it turned out to be media hype; they were in the news for a while and then fizzled out.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Labour. Anything to get the Tories out.

Even from the standpoint of bourgeois electoral politics, this doesn't make sense. As long as Labour can scare you into voting for them by waving around a picture of Cameron, they can completely ignore you in order to win votes from the right.

[Futility Personified]

I'm going to be voting green, if they have anyone standing in this area. I'm in David Law's constituency, I suspect he's for the push as the tory wanker has been putting himself about quite a lot, I haven't heard of any ukip candidates but if they do exist I can see them doing well.

Nationally I think the greens will do quite well if they can get increased exposure. The whole labour-green tory-ukip thing will be interesting, in the same way that shoving a pinecone up your arse is interesting, as both main parties should receive a lot less of the vote than in previous elections. Lib dems are going to be annihilated.

[RA89]

Even from the standpoint of bourgeois electoral politics, this doesn't make sense. As long as Labour can scare you into voting for them by waving around a picture of Cameron, they can completely ignore you in order to win votes from the right.

And what is the alternative? A spoilt vote, vote for a small party or not voting at all will just mean the right wing groups have an advantage.

Since there is no immediate revolution, for me it makes sense to vote for the least right wing (or most left) parties who have a realistic chance of winning. For many it will make life much more bearable when you consider there are policies involved which can have large impact on their day-to-day living.

[RA89]

I've always done this even though my constituency has historically been solidly Labour-voting. This year, though, I'm considering not voting at all. The Tories are marginally worse than Labour but really how much difference does it make? Modern day Labour is at best a centrist party and I'd say that the last time the two parties were really distinguishable would have been in the 80s (before I was born!). On the other hand, I've witnessed the rise of UKIP support in my area and as much as I dislike Labour, there's no doubt that I'd vote for them as a protest against the truly right-wing groups.

That leaves the other option, which is to vote for one of the smaller parties, such as the Greens or one of the socialist groups. The problem there is that the genuinely left-wing parties are too tiny to make an impact, so it's a pointless vote unless they put their differences aside one day to create one larger Socialist Party that encompasses all of the smaller ones. Otherwise they may as well not exist. I'm never sure about the Green Party - they're preferable to Tories/Labour/Lib Dems I suppose.

Should we be worried about UKIP? A fuss was made about the BNP but it turned out to be media hype; they were in the news for a while and then fizzled out.

I don't think UKIP will be a real concern. Once they have to explore the policies of their party beyond the immigration fetish they will expose themselves. I feel like many of their policies would be frowned upon by a large number of their supporters who are totally unaware of what they're supporting.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

And what is the alternative? A spoilt vote, vote for a small party or not voting at all will just mean the right wing groups have an advantage.

Since there is no immediate revolution, for me it makes sense to vote for the least right wing (or most left) parties who have a realistic chance of winning. For many it will make life much more bearable when you consider there are policies involved which can have large impact on their day-to-day living.

From the standpoint of bourgeois electoral politics, you punish Labour for its shift to the right, so they will stop ignoring you because they're sure they have your vote anyway (because Tooories).

From a socialist standpoint, to be honest, you go home and drink heavily, as you know the living standards of the working class are dictated not by the notional policies of the various parties, but by the militancy of the working class, and what the bourgeoisie can get away with.

[RA89]

From the standpoint of bourgeois electoral politics, you punish Labour for its shift to the right, so they will stop ignoring you because they're sure they have your vote anyway (because Tooories).

From a socialist standpoint, to be honest, you go home and drink heavily, as you know the living standards of the working class are dictated not by the notional policies of the various parties, but by the militancy of the working class, and what the bourgeoisie can get away with.

It's not an either-or situation. If we believe a revolution is inevitable, why not live in the least right wing society we can until that happens?

Speak to people who are broke, living paycheck to paycheck or heavily reliant on benefits etc. Abstract ideas aren't so appealing or the prospect of a revolution which might not even happen in their lifetime.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

It's not an either-or situation. If we believe a revolution is inevitable, why not live in the least right wing society we can until that happens?

Speak to people who are broke, living paycheck to paycheck or heavily reliant on benefits etc. Abstract ideas aren't so appealing or the prospect of a revolution which might not even happen in their lifetime.

Your response has literally nothing to do with the posts it's supposed to be replying to.

[RA89]

Your response has literally nothing to do with the posts it's supposed to be replying to.
How?

I read you're post (the one I replied to) as

voting labour is pointless, real socialists know the current system is shit and trying to better lives by working through the current frame it is silly as a revolution is the only thing which will improve their living standards.

[human strike]

Abstain. It's still my ambition to one day militantly picket a polling station.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I wish I didn't live in a tory-labour marginal constituency (Tories have less than 100 vote majority) cos I would just abstain.

I almost feel compelled to vote Labour as my vote literally could make a difference, albeit on the extremely narrow Labour-centrism vs Tory-centre-right political spectrum.

Having said that, I still think the best way to deal with bourgeois elections is a combination of:

a) using them for propaganda at a local level where communist candidates are standing;
b) highlighting that, for the majority of people and majority of seats, voting is almost pointless because the system is such that most people's votes really don't have an impact on the election result.

The above therefore combines political-social-economic propaganda with an education of how the liberal democratic political system that we live in is inherently not democratic.

[The Feral Underclass]

Should we be worried about UKIP?

If they win the 25 seats some are predicting they'll win, then that will be a problem as it will give them coalition options.

[The Feral Underclass]

The Tories are marginally worse than Labour but really how much difference does it make? Modern day Labour is at best a centrist party and I'd say that the last time the two parties were really distinguishable would have been in the 80s (before I was born!).

If you actually read Labour promises, on paper they're quite different. For example, Labour promise to outlaw zero-hour contracts, raise the minimum wage, abolish letting-fees, outlaw short-term renting contracts, introduce a mansion tax, scrap the bedroom tax, repeal the Health and Social Care Act and so on. I mean ultimately they're piss-poor policies in the grand scheme of things, but they are policies which are fundamentally different to what the Tories have to offer.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

How?

I read you're post (the one I replied to) as

voting labour is pointless, real socialists know the current system is shit and trying to better lives by working through the current frame it is silly as a revolution is the only thing which will improve their living standards.

Voting Labour is pointless. The only situation in which communists could have called for a Labour vote is to expose them for the windbags they are. But the British working class, by all accounts, is well aware of what Labour is.

That doesn't mean nothing can be done. But electoral politics is not the way to improve the living standards of the workers and the oppressed. Militant pressure on the ruling class, no matter what government is in charge, is. The bourgeoisie isn't going to give you anything unless you cause problems for it.

And even if you take the electoral route - which makes no sense - voting for one party no matter what it does just makes that party ignore you.

[RedKobra]

I've voted Labour every time and every time they've kicked me and people like me in the nuts. Its true people die in the margins between Labour's neo-liberalism & the Tories Neo-Liberalism but there must come a time when you say enough is enough. Marginalism is a sign that politics isn't working. Also, its tempting to attribute the higher living standards under New Labour without factoring in the enormous boom we were all sitting on blissfully unaware that the whole thing was about to detonate. For most of their history Labour has been engaged in firmly holding down the living standards of the working class. In 1945 they were responding (as werer the Tories) to the intolerable pressure from below for serious structural changes. If you want more of that then struggle from below, don't just vote for a bunch of Blairites who hold us in nothing but contempt.

[The Feral Underclass]

UKIP are now up to 20% in approvals, which is only 7 points behind the Tories.

What. A. Nightmare.

[RedKobra]

UKIP are now up to 20% in approvals, which is only 7 points behind the Tories.

What. A. Nightmare.

Remember Cleggemania? The Libdems were gonna eclipse Labour, the Libdems were gonna do this, and the Libdems were gonna do that. It all went up in a puff of smoke. I'm not saying ukip won't win a handful of seats but I'm really not convinced these polls are going to equate to serious inroads. Its also worth savouring the thought of the rather large urine puddle Cameron is currently sitting in.
One othef factor in the mid term is that the ukip candidate list is paper thin. Get beyond the two professional politicians who defected from the tories, the rest are a bunch of rank amateurs. They might blag it & win a seat but how long before the constituants realise that they effectively handed their council tax to Boris Johnson's stupider, more embarrassing, oafish, incompitant brother?

[The Feral Underclass]

Remember Cleggemania? The Libdems were gonna eclipse Labour, the Libdems were gonna do this, and the Libdems were gonna do that. It all went up in a puff of smoke.

They won 56 seats and became a government coalition partner with a deputy prime minister. UKIP don't need to eclipse anyone, they just need to do as well as the Lib-Dems did in 2010. Even if they don't, they still could end up with 40 seats, which is a significant problem, especially if it gives them coalition options.

I don't think it's wise to be so dismissive.

[Futility Personified]

UKIP seem to be courting the absolutely insane demographic of the country. Despite the multitude of scandals they haven't really slowed down.

I'm sure a lot of people here have felt as indeed they have stated, when people say things like "all people on benefits are scroungers", things like "fuck work, i'd rather live on benefits than be exploited" and so on. I mean, it is a part truth, even if it is not a whole one.

It would seem that the more people defend immigration, or defend socially liberal laws and hint that to attack those things you would be a fascist or whatever, the more the attackers start to identify with extreme right views. Iirc that is (or is at least similar to) labelling theory. UKIP are a dangerous threat precisely because they bring to the surface all the forbidden reactionary thought that the tabloids have been pumping into circulation for as long as i've been alive, at least 20 years.

With regards to competency, let's be honest, the main priorities of governments since neo-liberalism took over have been asset stripping, rising on the availability of things that were formerly expensive commodities to add to that myth that we are, or at least were, "all middle class now". The council round my way have been mostly lib dem since forever, the one thing people want the council to do is fix the sodding potholes and they can't get that right, but they are still voted in. As long as it appeals to whatever prevading sentiment has been created, the 'right' people will be voted in. Competency is really a fictitious issue, because competency isn't going to affect the working class unless a pro working class policy is actually put into place or fucked up.

The tories will still get a good share of the vote despite their reason for being elected that they'll eliminate the deficit.

[RedKobra]

They won 56 seats and became a government coalition partner with a deputy prime minister. UKIP don't need to eclipse anyone, they just need to do as well as the Lib-Dems did in 2010. Even if they don't, they still could end up with 40 seats, which is a significant problem, especially if it gives them coalition options.

I don't think it's wise to be so dismissive.

I assure you I'm not being complacent. A ukip-tory coalition is the stuff of absolute nightmares. My point is that the clamour for ukip is an even bigger media creation than cleggomania. The Libdems had a solid base to build on in 2010 & didn't manage to turn the media hype into an electoral breakthrough. My point about the electorate sussing ukip out is because I essentially see them as a bunch of right wing versions of george galloway, all hype & bluster. They, like galloway, were made for campaigning not governing. There's also the question of whether ukip would want a coalition with the tories, for a start in would alienate a lot of thier former labour contingent, it would utterly disillusion their cranks who don't yet realise their bnp lite fantasies won't happen. There's the issue of the fleas you get from governing per se. Are ukip sufficiently strong as a brand/movement to survive, I have my doubts. Personally I think they will play the opposition card for a good while yet. they need the excuse of not having power to justify not enacting their bat shit crazy program which I'm sure they know is bat shit crazy.

[poppleton]

Vote TUSC against the cuts

[Q]

This poll really needs an "I don't live in the UK" option.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I assure you I'm not being complacent. A ukip-tory coalition is the stuff of absolute nightmares. My point is that the clamour for ukip is an even bigger media creation than cleggomania. The Libdems had a solid base to build on in 2010 & didn't manage to turn the media hype into an electoral breakthrough. My point about the electorate sussing ukip out is because I essentially see them as a bunch of right wing versions of george galloway, all hype & bluster. They, like galloway, were made for campaigning not governing. There's also the question of whether ukip would want a coalition with the tories, for a start in would alienate a lot of thier former labour contingent, it would utterly disillusion their cranks who don't yet realise their bnp lite fantasies won't happen. There's the issue of the fleas you get from governing per se. Are ukip sufficiently strong as a brand/movement to survive, I have my doubts. Personally I think they will play the opposition card for a good while yet. they need the excuse of not having power to justify not enacting their bat shit crazy program which I'm sure they know is bat shit crazy.

Even if the UKIP won, what then? I'm old enough to remember the hysteria surrounding Haider and his party, a party so distinguished and interesting I can't remember their name, in Austria. Yet lo and behold, Haider ended up being a bog-standard pro-austerity liberal with some rhetoric that made you want to throw up in your mouth. Sure, the Austrian state wasn't particularly nice to worker, immigrants, women, minorities etc. when Haider was part of the ruling coalition, but it wasn't particularly nice to those groups under the SPO or the OVP either. The problem, I think, is not so much the supposition that the UKIP are slimy bastards, but that Tories and Labour are better, and won't try to ride the wave of anti-immigrant hysteria.

[Zoroaster]

I don't live in the UK, but I would pick abstain. Revolt is the best way forward for socialism.

[The Feral Underclass]

I assure you I'm not being complacent. A ukip-tory coalition is the stuff of absolute nightmares. My point is that the clamour for ukip is an even bigger media creation than cleggomania. The Libdems had a solid base to build on in 2010 & didn't manage to turn the media hype into an electoral breakthrough. My point about the electorate sussing ukip out is because I essentially see them as a bunch of right wing versions of george galloway, all hype & bluster. They, like galloway, were made for campaigning not governing. There's also the question of whether ukip would want a coalition with the tories, for a start in would alienate a lot of thier former labour contingent, it would utterly disillusion their cranks who don't yet realise their bnp lite fantasies won't happen. There's the issue of the fleas you get from governing per se. Are ukip sufficiently strong as a brand/movement to survive, I have my doubts. Personally I think they will play the opposition card for a good while yet. they need the excuse of not having power to justify not enacting their bat shit crazy program which I'm sure they know is bat shit crazy.

I think this is wishful thinking and completely underestimates their abilities. They aren't just a flash-in-the-pan organisation. They are starting to gather a strong base of support; they already have 24 MEPs and numerous council seats, this makes them in no way comparable to Respect. I think it's also ridiculous to suggest that given the opportunity Farage would not take a coalition deal that saw him achieve actual power. Since neither he nor Cameron have ruled out forming such a coalition, I'm not sure what your view is based upon. I also think it's wrong to consider them "bat shit crazy." It's very easy to attribute insanity to the far-right, but Farage is a calculated and skilled politician who has managed to very successfully tap in to the anger of white working class people and present a populist agenda that clearly resonates with a wide demographic. All Farage needs to do as a coalition partner is continue his anti-Muslim rhetoric, lobby for draconian immigration controls and an EU referendum, and he has succeeded in achieving his key electoral promises. By that point, the damage is done.

[The Feral Underclass]

This poll really needs an "I don't live in the UK" option.

Pretend you're from the UK.

[FSL]

People voting Labour to keep the tories out now will be voting the tories to keep UKIP out in 5 years.

[Invader Zim]

Most likely spoil my ballot, because they don't represent me. Abstaining doesn't register disaffection.


People voting Labour to keep the tories out now will be voting the tories to keep UKIP out in 5 years.

No.

[The Idler]

People voting Labour to keep the tories out now will be voting the tories to keep UKIP out in 5 years.
People voting Labour to keep the Tories out now might be voting Left Unity to keep Class War out in 5 years.

[Blake's Baby]

People voting Labour to keep the Tories out now might be voting Left Unity to keep Class War out in 5 years.

Do you want a serious discussion on this, or are you just playing the fool?

[The Idler]

Sorry. To be serious I don't believe in the voting trap that voting lesser evil necessarily produces more right wing politics. More right wing politics is produced where the right wing are powerful, not by voting lesser evil.

[Blake's Baby]

OK.

Well, this makes me a bad Left-Comm, but were the SPGB to stand in my constituency, I'd feel honour-bound to vote for them. Mostly, because I'd rather they had their election deposit back and did something useful with the money instead of just paying it straight to the Exchequer.

Also, a little, because I think that much of the SPGB's 'case for socialism' is reasonable. Some of it is less so; such as standing in elections. But at present I can't see that elections are such a distraction for the working class that it makes much difference. It's not as if we've called off the revolution so the SPGB can stand 10 candidates. Perhaps the effort that the SPGB puts into its propaganda might make a few people take an interest in serious politics. Perhaps.

And also, because not voting for them would be like deliberately stamping on a sad puppy, and I doubt I could live with the guilt next time I saw The Idler (or some of the names on the SPGB's list who are people I know too).

[FSL]

Sorry. To be serious I don't believe in the voting trap that voting lesser evil necessarily produces more right wing politics. More right wing politics is produced where the right wing are powerful, not by voting lesser evil.

When has a lesser evil weakened the right wing and why is it even important to make the distinction between the right wing and parties like labour or the greens (I'd go even further)?

There was a UMP-Front National presidential election in France a few years back and people, "leftists" included, voted for the center-right as the lesser evil.
I didn't see Lepen and capitalism weaken. Hollande was a lesser evil for the workers supposedly but proved to be a greater good for capitalism and Lepen. Blair was the lesser evil at some point, wasn't he?

Lesser evils further legitimize reactionary ideas because they themseves are mostly in their favour. The historical experience is also there, the problem is people don't want to look at it.

[The Idler]

When has a lesser evil weakened the right wing and why is it even important to make the distinction between the right wing and parties like labour or the greens (I'd go even further)?

There was a UMP-Front National presidential election in France a few years back and people, "leftists" included, voted for the center-right as the lesser evil.
I didn't see Lepen and capitalism weaken. Hollande was a lesser evil for the workers supposedly but proved to be a greater good for capitalism and Lepen. Blair was the lesser evil at some point, wasn't he?

Lesser evils further legitimize reactionary ideas because they themseves are mostly in their favour. The historical experience is also there, the problem is people don't want to look at it.
Lesser evil is still evil, just not as a reason to abstain.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Lesser evil is still evil, just not as a reason to abstain.

In ideological terms yes, in practical terms no. So if there is a realistic chance that your vote may make a difference (i.e. in a marginal constituency), then I think it is a fair enough decision to vote Labour against the Tories, as it constitutes a practice choice, not an ideological choice, and if it results in some coalition involving Labour as the largest party rather than the Tories, then that will at least provide some respite for the next 5 years.

I guess the old adage of "hold your nose and vote...[whoever]" applies here. Under no illusions about what Labour are.

[The Idler]

In ideological terms yes, in practical terms no. So if there is a realistic chance that your vote may make a difference (i.e. in a marginal constituency), then I think it is a fair enough decision to vote Labour against the Tories, as it constitutes a practice choice, not an ideological choice, and if it results in some coalition involving Labour as the largest party rather than the Tories, then that will at least provide some respite for the next 5 years.

I guess the old adage of "hold your nose and vote...[whoever]" applies here. Under no illusions about what Labour are.
The thing is, even if you think it provides respite for the next 5 years (itself not a universally agreed assertion), over the medium to long-term lesser-evil parties win elections because they get voted in (no matter whether those votes are with or without illusions) and form governments with democratic mandates. Then at the next election, support for a party of 'lesser-evil' has the advantage of support from the last election and voters have the same choice. We live in a multi-party system, every journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step and it is better to vote for what you want and not get it, than to vote for what you don't want and get it.

[Invader Zim]

Was planning on spoiling my ballot, but i might vote for a joke party instead if one is available.

[FrogStupid]

I intend to vote Green if they are available (they plan to abolish the monarchy, stick Ol' Lizzie in a council house! :grin:), but I suspect I'll have the 'choice' between Labour, Tories, LibDem and UKIP.

I'll call it now, though:

Tories will get the most seats, but not a majority. They will have a very, very slim lead over Labour. UKIP will come in third. LibDems will suffer losses. Greens will see an upsurge in votes but will fail to make any significant gains in terms of seats.

Result: Tory-UKIP coalition.

CALLED!

I only hope that UKIP take enough out of the Tory vote to give Labour the most seats, setting up a Labour-LibDem coalition. Or a Labour-SNP OR! a Labour-SNP-Green coalition (either of the last two would probably be preferable to Labour-LibDem). Whatever happens I can't see any one party winning a majority.

So, as I believe we are doomed to a Tory-UKIP coalition, and while I completely understand those who intend to abstain/spoil their vote, I am afraid I'm going to have to vote for Red(!) Ed.

Please don't judge me.

[Invader Zim]

You obviously have no idea how British constituencies work. Even if ukip get 15-20% of the vote, the probability of them getting more than a brace of seats is remote. Even with half the popular votes of ukip, the Lib Dems will still leave with at least two dozen seats.

This is because the ukip support is distributed relatively evenly and not sufficiently concentrated to win many seats.

[RedKobra]

I only hope that UKIP take enough out of the Tory vote to give Labour the most seats, setting up a Labour-LibDem coalition. Or a Labour-SNP OR! a Labour-SNP-Green coalition (either of the last two would probably be preferable to Labour-LibDem). Whatever happens I can't see any one party winning a majority.

Please don't judge me.

I think the chances of the SNP being part of a coalition are extremely slim, primarily because part of the deal they would strike would be something like Devo-Max, meaning the SNP wouldn't sit in Westminster, hence they couldn't support Labour in votes. Also there are Scottish issues to consider, like the fact that in Scotland Labour & the SNP are the two biggest parties. Working together in England would cause problems for them.

[Invader Zim]

Lib Dem Labour coalition. Mark my words.

[The Feral Underclass]

I think a Labour/Lib-Dem coalition is probably the most likely outcome.

[Thirsty Crow]

Speak to people who are broke, living paycheck to paycheck or heavily reliant on benefits etc. Abstract ideas aren't so appealing or the prospect of a revolution which might not even happen in their lifetime.
You know, I had this exact talk with my folks concerning the election here. The logic was completely the same - anything to remove the dominant center right party from power. The argument also touched upon real concerns for the working class and pensioners (the latter category is where my folks are at). They of course voted social democrat (the other dominant party here).

And guess what? First, the entire election campaign took on the form of some vague and non-specific plan for alleviating social problems, on one hand, but of course on the other that socdem party has also sounded the "everything better than THEM" horn.

The result? Total committment to austerity, as much as they could get away with it, and of course it didn't end up that well for broke people, for workers living from paycheck to paycheck, for pensioners and for me as well. But that's the gist of it - possible policies and courses of action are definitely not unrestrained. In fact, they're pretty much dictated by the global situation of capital anywhere and everywhere, in conjunction with regional and local characteristics.

[FrogStupid]

You obviously have no idea how British constituencies work. Even if ukip get 15-20% of the vote, the probability of them getting more than a brace of seats is remote. Even with half the popular votes of ukip, the Lib Dems will still leave with at least two dozen seats.

This is because the ukip support is distributed relatively evenly and not sufficiently concentrated to win many seats.


:lol: I understand how it works, as is implied by what I said about the Greens - they will see an upsurge in votes but that won't translate to seats. I just have this fear that the UKIP performance in the opinion polls will translate into significant gains in seats, that their rise in popularity is significant enough that this is possible.


I was in full doomsday mode last night, but UKIP's rise represents a clear shift to the right. Opinion polls over the last three years show the Greens and UKIP have both gained popularity, the Conservatives have pretty much held constant, while Labour and the LibDems have both been steadily losing support. Labour were polling at 43/44% 3 years ago, it's now down to around the 34/35% mark. While I don't think the support for the Greens will be enough to see them gain any seats, I think its conceivable that UKIP could gain seats, here and there, from all three main parties. 10 or so, maybe? This could be just enough to get them in on a coalition if things go badly enough for the LibDems.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You know, I had this exact talk with my folks concerning the election here. The logic was completely the same - anything to remove the dominant center right party from power.

I don't think the SRP was ever in power here.

[/Croatian politics jokes]

The good thing is, this strategy doesn't seem to work for the social-demonrats anymore, as shown by the recent presidential election, where their candidate intended to win by periodically opening his mouth and saying the vaguest bullshit, and by not being the other candidate. I don't know if the situation in Britain is similar.

[RedKobra]

I don't think the SRP was ever in power here.

[/Croatian politics jokes]

The good thing is, this strategy doesn't seem to work for the social-demonrats anymore, as shown by the recent presidential election, where their candidate intended to win by periodically opening his mouth and saying the vaguest bullshit, and by not being the other candidate. I don't know if the situation in Britain is similar.

Several Labour MP's (past & present) on the left (McDonnell, Livingstone, Corbyn.etc) have confirmed that is indeed Miliband's strategy. Its called the 35% strategy. Its an attempt to sneak into government by just not offending people. The timidity is palpable.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I would be massively surprised if Ed Miliband is the next PM.

More likely is a hung parliament and a constitutional crisis/5 more years of Tory-Lib Dems.

[RedKobra]

Heaven help us. People will be picking through bins after 5 more years of this bunch of bastards.

[jimcooper]

I don't know much about UK Poll system can some one tell me in brief.

[The Idler]

I don't know much about UK Poll system can some one tell me in brief.
650 parliamentary constituencies send the winner of the election in each one to sit an MP in the House of Commons. Coming second or third in lots of constituencies means nothing and you don't get seats in the House of Commons.

[Futility Personified]

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/rmt-union-president-im-standing-8598307

I thought this was quite interesting. Wasn't the SPEW trying to cultivate quite a close relationship with the RMT for TUSC?

Seems like the Greens are really mopping up on the left at the moment.

[Blake's Baby]

Yes, TUSC was basically the SPEW and RMT. I think the CPB might have been involved too.

Not sure that the Greens are likely to make a breakthrough in Redcar.

[RedKobra]

I think the CPB discussed it but it was voted down by members.

[Blake's Baby]

Yes, it seems I'm conflating TUSC with its predecessor, No2EU, which the CPB was involved with.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

most of my friends are voting green this time round

[poppleton]

The Green Party are not a left party. They are a capitalist party who are committed to austerity. They have proven this whenever they have held power, both at the local level in the UK (Brighton and Hove City Council), and nationally in the Republic of Ireland (propping up the fianna Fail administartion).
They will kick workers in the face whenever they get the chance. I used to live in Brighton and still have ties with workers that reside there, many who are active on the left. All this talk of the green party as being a left wing alternative is seen as some sort of sick joke. They are commonly referred to as 'fucking Tories on bikes'. don't take my word for it, ask any workers in Brighton. The Green Party don't give a shit about the working class.
I currently reside in a city in the old industrial north of England. The active left in my home city (this includes - the INS, SPEW, SWP, Left Unity,the People's assembly, Defend our NHS and a number of anti-austerity, trade union and environmental activists) have all committed to supporting TUSC, and mobilising behind their election campaign for the local and parliamentary ballots in May. Many have legitimate concerns regarding TUSC but they have all agreed to put these to one side as TUSC are the only electoral alternative against austerity and committed to fighting for workers' rights. Our local Green Party have forced many LU activists into the TUSC campaign as they have openly stated they will not canvass or campaign in predominantly working class wards and will not commit to an even mildly reformist set of demands against local authority spending cuts for local public services.
With regard to tactical voting people need to make an informed choice. We all know the British electoral system is rigged largely due to not having PR. (I have many friends that just don't believe that any advance in the workers' movement can be made through parliamentary reform - I firmly disagree - as all the rights I enjoy have been achieved through workers' struggle at the union level and through their political representatives - another discussion.) The Green Party will not take votes away from UKIP or the Conservatives. This is the unavoidable truth. The Greens will only take votes from progressive middle class types who read the Gaurdian/Independent and eat falafel, basically those who would vote Lib Dem or New Labour. This means that if you vote Green you are making a Tory/UKIP coalition inevitable. VOTE GREEN GET BLUE.

[bricolage]

This means that if you vote Green you are making a Tory/UKIP coalition inevitable. VOTE GREEN GET BLUE.
This is the exact same argument Labour party supporters would use against voting for TUSC.

[Lord Testicles]

We're probably going to get a tory government after the next election. I really don't see Ed Miliband as Prime Sinister especially after UKIP(!) split his vote. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/poll-shows-voters-believe-ukip-is-to-the-left-of-the-tories-9923416.html)

[poppleton]

This is the exact same argument Labour party supporters would use against voting for TUSC.

I agree, New Labour supporters would use this argument but TUSC candidates have to commit to fighting for workers' rights and combating austerity measures, something the Greens will never do.
I think people should vote for what policies are the best fit in line with their values rather than just hold their nose and vote tactically when they come to the ballot box. There is no difference between voting for the Lib Dems or voting for the Greens. They won't take on corporate power or private capital where as TUSC councillors have a record of getting their hands dirty in the class struggle. Also any worker can stand (under the constraints of UK election rules) for TUSC. I'm going to stand for them. Something is better than nothing. It also provides a great opportunity to get socialist ideas across to workers.
I'm the first person to admit that that I'm not the sharpest theoretical knife in the draw but the Green's policy of a steady state economy would be a disaster for working people.
The Labour Party has been a dead end for UK workers as far back as Kinnock's leadership.

[The Idler]

I agree, New Labour supporters would use this argument but TUSC candidates have to commit to fighting for workers' rights and combating austerity measures, something the Greens will never do.
I think people should vote for what policies are the best fit in line with their values rather than just hold their nose and vote tactically when they come to the ballot box. There is no difference between voting for the Lib Dems or voting for the Greens. They won't take on corporate power or private capital where as TUSC councillors have a record of getting their hands dirty in the class struggle. Also any worker can stand (under the constraints of UK election rules) for TUSC. I'm going to stand for them. Something is better than nothing. It also provides a great opportunity to get socialist ideas across to workers.
I'm the first person to admit that that I'm not the sharpest theoretical knife in the draw but the Green's policy of a steady state economy would be a disaster for working people.
The Labour Party has been a dead end for UK workers as far back as Kinnock's leadership.
I would have thought the Labour Party has been a dead end for UK workers as far back as Ramsay MacDonald's leadership.

[bricolage]

I think people should vote for what policies are the best fit in line with their values rather than just hold their nose and vote tactically when they come to the ballot box.
Fine, I mean I'm not saying the Greens are great. But your 'Vote Green Get Blue' argument was the opposite of what you are saying now; a scare tactic that lends itself to tactical voting. And flipping it around you could say vote 'Vote TUSC Get Blue' and it would be just true.

I mean if someone's biggest issue is getting the Conservatives out of power then they should probably vote Labour, if they're gonna vote and that's not their primary issue at the ballot box and they want to vote for someone they 'like' then they should vote Green or vote TUSC or vote whoever they want. I mean that's politics right?

I'm not even saying what people 'should' do, or my opinion at the moment, just trying to cut through the arguments.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Labour are so thoughtless. Their lack of understanding of the effects of their policies really does make them come across as amateurs:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-31640592

Reducing tuition fees to £6,000 is the best example of Labour trying to appear to be on the side of ordinary people, but really just benefiting the wealthiest of students from middle- and upper-middle class homes. It's worse than being sinister - it's thoughtless. Ugh.

[G4b3n]

If I lived in England I would probably vote labour for practical purposes. While bourgeois democracy is obviously shit, legislation tends to actually pass in the UK because of parliamentary supremacy and what U.S critics call the "elected dictatorship". Whether it makes a change, even a small one, is a different story, but at least it actually looks like shit is happening. Whereas in the U.S I vote for dead radicals every election.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Apart from maybe two or three councillor seats in certain locations, it's pretty obvious that TUSC isn't going to win big or anything. I think it's more important to see what comes from TUSC after the election, if it can grow as an organisation, utilise what numbers gathered around the group to keep campaigns running and keep pushing for an alternative to austerity politics etc. After the election, the Greens and Labour both are going to continue austerity measures, with the Greens in particular only being able to respond to cuts to services by claiming that they'll raise council tax, something that'd effect workers just as much as capitalists, and not really offering anything except platitudes or, as in Bristol, Brighton and Hove etc, complete capitulation to Tory policies. Labour, similarly, are completely committed to neoliberalism with Ed Balls committing Labour to the majority of the Tory spending plan until 2020.

[The Idler]

Class War's election banner dubbed the most dangerous banner in Britain has been confiscated
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/daniel-brett/protest-jeremy-clarkson_b_6862408.html

[The Idler]

Anyone changed their support during the election campaign?

[Die Neue Zeit]

If I were a UK voter, then except for perhaps 10 ridings, I'd spoil my ballot.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

i might as well vote for the fucking monster raving loony party at this point tbh

[Comrade Jacob]

Respect party cos I'm a member. (As well as CPGB-ML)

[The Intransigent Faction]

Respect party cos I'm a member. (As well as CPGB-ML)

Aren't you a Maoist? The CPGB-ML goes beyond even critically supporting China as anti-imperialists. They consider modern China to be socialist.

[Invader Zim]

i might as well vote for the fucking monster raving loony party at this point tbh

Welcome to British politics. Is this your first election? If so, get used to this feeling. It happens every five years.

[Invader Zim]

Actually, I may (as in there very is a small possibility verses my vastly prefered option of spoiling my ballot) vote green. Not because I like them, but because the shift to the right needs to be opposed and they are the only party that takes climate change seriously.

[Rudolf]

Actually, I may (as in there very is a small possibility verses my vastly prefered option of spoiling my ballot) vote green. Not because I like them, but because the shift to the right needs to be opposed and they are the only party that takes climate change seriously.


Ah the greens, or as a remarkable amount of workers in Brighton call them: tories on bikes.


Tbh, it doesn't matter how 'left' a party is when it's pretty obvious they attack workers.

Oh and i think they only take climate change seriously because they're not in power. Iirc the German green party sent riot police against protesters trying to stop nuclear waste being transported through their communities. There was also the Irish green party who used to support 'shell to the sea' but then from the first sniff of power they u-turned and implemented the corrib gas project.

The shift to the right does need opposing but the ballot isn't how it works. The shift to the right is a result of the marginalisation of the labour movement. A shift to the left will result from a militant mass movement regardless of what party's in power.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Welcome to British politics. Is this your first election? If so, get used to this feeling. It happens every five years.

first general election but i've shown an utter lack of respect to several local elections and that fucking police commissioner bullshit

[hexaune]

Not that I particularly support new labour or think they will come close to solving any of the myriad of problems in this country, I am really worried about how much irreversible (in the near - medium future) damage the Tories will do if they get a second go at ruling us.

[A.J.]

Some "trade union and socialist coalition" is standing in my constituency.

After performing some research on this electoral formation the duplicitous face of trotskyism has been exposed as being behind it. As such they won't be getting my vote.

[RA89]

Voting ends tonight in less than 6 hours.

[Left Voice]

Reluctantly voting Labour through proxy (not in the UK anymore). I share all the same dislikes of the current Labour Party as everybody else. For me it's just tactical - my home constituency is a marginal Tory seat and I wanna see them out. So I may as well try, my own issues with the voting system aside. You could argue that me voting legitimises the system, but on the other hand real change will only come from direct working class action - not just because I decided to not vote. Realistically, I'd rather see the Tories out *and* fight against the broken representative democratic system.

David Cameron was at the Asda store this week that I used to work at, on the same night shift. It all looks impressive in the media - Cameron there in a hi-vis jacket hanging out with the workers. Except, the whole thing was just a media farce. Everybody was checked as they arrived at work, people's uniforms had to be spotless, nobody was allowed to take a break even if they were entitled to do so, people weren't even allowed to go to the toilet. People had to change their working practices in order to make the shop floor and warehouse spotless for Cameron. The media doesn't mention any of this and how the whole thing was a completely staged farce that only served to impede people trying to work. They just reported his presense.
My mother also works there and had the chance to meet him for tea and buscuits. She refused, of course.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/general-election-2015/11585166/General-election-2015-in-pictures-6-May-2015.html?frame=3292819

[RedAnarchist]

UK election exit poll predicts Conservatives will be largest party in a hung parliament, with 316 seats to Labour's 239. Survey by NOP/Mori for BBC, ITV and Sky.

[Futility Personified]

I know labour are next to scum (fucking harriet harmen on the telly already) but christ, another 5 years of the fucking tories.....

[hexaune]

I know labour are next to scum (fucking harriet harmen on the telly already) but christ, another 5 years of the fucking tories.....

Its depressing, they were bad enough with the mildly restraining libdem factor, if they can govern solely with the DUP, which is looking likely from the exit polls, its going to be bad. Tax credits, which for a lot of us is about the only thing vaguely keeping our heads above the water are blatantly going to be hit hard.

[RedAnarchist]

It looks like Condomhead is going to be Prime Minister for another five years, although his lackey Clegg and his party are getting destroyed.

[The Feral Underclass]

Well fuckity fuck.

What a joke. There's now a suggestion that the Tories may win an outright majority.

[ChangeAndChance]

320 seats in. Nearly halfway through and Labour is at 133 with the Tories clambering their way up to 112. As usual, the north is still a weakkneed socdem stronghold and the south is a conservative pit of despair. The SNP is dominating Scotland, and probably taking away many Labour votes simultaneously. Wales seems divided between Labour, Tory and Green oddly enough.

All in all, things look shit.

Also UKIP held Clacton. What a surprise. Yet for all their internet posing, UKIP doesn't seem to quite have the teeth they think they have.

[A.J.]

Finding out this morning that the tories were set to win with an outright majority left me quite frankly mortified.


Not wishing to sound like some sort of apologist for the Liberal party but at least when they were in the coalition they sought to mitigate, perhaps only with a limited degree of success, the worst excesses of austerity.


The nest five years of tory majority government, however, are going to be brutal:(

[Fakeblock]

Farage lost Thanet South, but otherwise these results are extremely depressing.

[Tim Cornelis]

I stayed home, but in hindsight I should've voted Labour.

[A.J.]

There's only one option available given the grim prospect of five years of tory rule ahead;







emigration.

[Left Voice]

Farage lost Thanet South, but otherwise these results are extremely depressing.
Even then, UKIP came 2nd in 90 seats. If we had PR instead of FPTP, they'd have serious representation in parliament. That's depressing.

[Quail]

I abstained from voting again. Looks like it's time to get our shit together and organise, eh?

[Lord Testicles]

It's the best result revolutionaries can ask for.

[Futility Personified]

As an isolated radical though, it is shitter than shit. While I'm round here i'll see if SPEW are actually doing any campaigns of relevance (though they didn't reply to my emails after I said I no longer wanted to be a member.... a one day general strike and a new workers party are things that i don't want to agitate for) but when i'm in bristol i want to see who is worth getting in with. Now MI5 know this and they will put shit in my bins and make the birds laugh at me.

[Invader Zim]

It's the best result revolutionaries can ask for.

Not if they're a pensioner, a single parent, on a casual contract, disabled, a student, a school pupil, in social care, or are part of any group that the Tories plan so squeeze to that they can cut taxes from the already obscenely rich.

[RedWorker]

Not if they're a pensioner, a single parent, on a casual contract, disabled, a student, a school pupil, in social care, or are part of any group that the Tories plan so squeeze to that they can cut taxes from the already obscenely rich.

Or a worker, a homosexual, a woman, an atheist, or anyone who isn't a member of a ridiculously tiny elite in general.

[John Nada]

Damn! Should've voted for Hillary Clinton:( I fucked up good this time.

Not if they're a pensioner, a single parent, on a casual contract, disabled, a student, a school pupil, in social care, or are part of any group that the Tories plan so squeeze to that they can cut taxes from the already obscenely rich.Or a worker, a homosexual, a woman, an atheist, or anyone who isn't a member of a ridiculously tiny elite in general.And that's with Labour. I can only imagine how bad it'll be with the Tories.

The right wins and rule like assholes, then the center-right rallies against their opponents, and continues to move right at a slower pace. This "bad cop, good cop" thing is keeps the illusion of reformism alive. Reagan, Thatcher, and both Bushs were fucking assholes. Their bullshit then for a moment makes the "lesser evil" look good.

I hate this sham "democracy" in the US. It sounds like it sucks in the UK too. If it's any consolation, the Tories only have the support of 25.56% of the people of the UK(35% with 71%), if votes mean anything(35% of the votes, 25.56% of potential voters, but over 50% of the seats, WTF).

[Lord Testicles]

Not if they're a pensioner, a single parent, on a casual contract, disabled, a student, a school pupil, in social care, or are part of any group that the Tories plan so squeeze to that they can cut taxes from the already obscenely rich.

I didn't say it was going to be all fun and rainbows, I said it was the best result that revolutionaries can ask for. Anyone who isn't the obscenely rich was going to suffer under any of the parties that stood a chance of getting in. The point is not to cry about how hard it's going to be (it was going to be hard anyway) the point is to fight them and fighting someone is so much easier when they're not pretending to be your friend.

Maybe we should have all voted Labour though. I mean, we don't really want a revolution do we? A revolution would be a traumatic event after all, maybe it would be better for the pensioners, the unemployed and the disabled if we just tried to maintain an "acceptable" capitalism, a capitalism with a human face. There's less chance of them perishing in a violent uprising that way.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I didn't say it was going to be all fun and rainbows, I said it was the best result that revolutionaries can ask for. Anyone who isn't the obscenely rich was going to suffer under any of the parties that stood a chance of getting in. The point is not to cry about how hard it's going to be (it was going to be hard anyway) the point is to fight them and fighting someone is so much easier when they're not pretending to be your friend.

Maybe we should have all voted Labour though. I mean, we don't really want a revolution do we? A revolution would be a traumatic event after all, maybe it would be better for the pensioners, the unemployed and the disabled if we just tried to maintain an "acceptable" capitalism, a capitalism with a human face. There's less chance of them perishing in a violent uprising that way.

I agree that suffering would happen regardless, and even that reformism solves nothing, but by that logic, wouldn't a BNP victory be even "better" for revolutionaries? It's one thing to reject the bourgeois facade altogether, but another to deliberately make things worse in the hope that people get pissed off enough to revolt. That's just being cynically manipulative.

[RA89]

There's not going to be a revolution any time soon here. Nearly all of middle England are living comfy (and evidently don't give a shit about anyone else) and as bad as things are for the poor, it's going to take much more suffering and poverty before anything happens.

This "don't vote it's not revolutionary" talk sounds like something you'd hear from an out-of-touch middle class kid in a coffee shop who has no idea what poor people are going through.
With this logic we might as well preach capitalism everywhere in the hope that it does even better to ruin things more, vote in UKIP/BNP as one poster said etc.

Unless you're going to organise the revolution when Tories reign, then don't moan at Labour voters using a pipe dream revolution as your reason. It is exactly the same as religious people reacting to bad people with "it's okay god will handle it on judgement day".

[RedWorker]

So there are 3 possible cases:

a) Voting changes something; we need things to be worse to have the revolution and/or the right-wing to be in power for criticism to be directed at them, possibly from a left-wing point of view. So why not vote for the right-wing? (does not seem like a good idea)
b) Voting changes nothing. So what is the harm in voting when it does not affect your revolutionary political activity? (not likely the case; voting seems to change SOMETHING)
c) Voting changes something. So why not vote for the left?

Of course, whether a revolutionary party should promote voting is a completely different issue.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I didn't say it was going to be all fun and rainbows, I said it was the best result that revolutionaries can ask for. Anyone who isn't the obscenely rich was going to suffer under any of the parties that stood a chance of getting in. The point is not to cry about how hard it's going to be (it was going to be hard anyway) the point is to fight them and fighting someone is so much easier when they're not pretending to be your friend.

Maybe we should have all voted Labour though. I mean, we don't really want a revolution do we? A revolution would be a traumatic event after all, maybe it would be better for the pensioners, the unemployed and the disabled if we just tried to maintain an "acceptable" capitalism, a capitalism with a human face. There's less chance of them perishing in a violent uprising that way.

This is awful logic.

A social revolution is a means to an end; that end being the ability of hitherto oppressed people to live dignified lives free from the rule of the capitalists.

Your logic flips this around and presumes that the revolution is the end in and of itself, and that if the means towards this are the further oppression and exploitation of working people then so be it.

You may not cry at the results, and indeed some of us are lucky enough that we do not face such a level of oppression that our lives will be endangered by this result. But I can bet that the result of this election will be that many people will face further anguish and despair in their already bleak lives.

Anyway, I do think that the point now is to move on from silly debates like this which result in extreme positions being taken (I am not, for example, saying that a Labour win would have us in the rose garden...) and do the necessary political work in the next 5 years that will help us to challenge those who will now try to extract what they can from us, most probably through incredibly cruel and inhumane means.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

It's the best result revolutionaries can ask for.

I think the best result revolutionaries could have asked for was mass abstention by the working class. The victory of the Tories simply means that the working class is going to spend the next four years listening to how Labour, or SNP, or the Tories on bikes, whatever, would have Been Different (TM). If Labour won they would listen to how the evil Tories are forcing Labour's hand. You get imbecilic myths either way, and either way the proletariat is fucked.

[RedAnarchist]

I think the best result revolutionaries could have asked for was mass abstention by the working class. The victory of the Tories simply means that the working class is going to spend the next four years listening to how Labour, or SNP, or the Tories on bikes, whatever, would have Been Different (TM). If Labour won they would listen to how the evil Tories are forcing Labour's hand. You get imbecilic myths either way, and either way the proletariat is fucked.

You mean five - after the last election, they passed a law where we have our general election every five years so the next one is May 2020. That means five whole years of a Tory majority, hopefully their backbenchers fuck it up for them. I do agree, though, that the proletariat is fucked. we would be fucked with even a green or Left Unity or TUSC majority.

[Invader Zim]

I didn't say it was going to be all fun and rainbows, I said it was the best result that revolutionaries can ask for. Anyone who isn't the obscenely rich was going to suffer under any of the parties that stood a chance of getting in. The point is not to cry about how hard it's going to be (it was going to be hard anyway) the point is to fight them and fighting someone is so much easier when they're not pretending to be your friend.

Maybe we should have all voted Labour though. I mean, we don't really want a revolution do we? A revolution would be a traumatic event after all, maybe it would be better for the pensioners, the unemployed and the disabled if we just tried to maintain an "acceptable" capitalism, a capitalism with a human face. There's less chance of them perishing in a violent uprising that way.

Did you vote for UKIP, then?

[Invader Zim]

hopefully their backbenchers fuck it up for them.

Which they will. The Tories are highly factional and the EU issue is at the very epicentre of those fault-lines.

[Lord Testicles]

I agree that suffering would happen regardless, and even that reformism solves nothing, but by that logic, wouldn't a BNP victory be even "better" for revolutionaries? It's one thing to reject the bourgeois facade altogether, but another to deliberately make things worse in the hope that people get pissed off enough to revolt. That's just being cynically manipulative.

I don't see how the BNP could have got in, I think if we are ever in a position where the BNP can get into power then we've probably already failed. But let's be clear, I never said we should endeavour to make things worse, that would be a complete waste of energy.



You may not cry at the results, and indeed some of us are lucky enough that we do not face such a level of oppression that our lives will be endangered by this result. But I can bet that the result of this election will be that many people will face further anguish and despair in their already bleak lives.


I would have cried at any of the realistic results if it wasn't so predictable that we were going to be stuck with another 5 years of self serving shitbirds and I can't see a victory for any of the parties not resulting in many people facing further anguish and despair in their already bleak lives.


I think the best result revolutionaries could have asked for was mass abstention by the working class. The victory of the Tories simply means that the working class is going to spend the next four years listening to how Labour, or SNP, or the Tories on bikes, whatever, would have Been Different (TM). If Labour won they would listen to how the evil Tories are forcing Labour's hand. You get imbecilic myths either way, and either way the proletariat is fucked.

I agree but I don't think there was a reasonable possibility of mass abstention by the working class in the 2015 general election.


Did you vote for UKIP, then?

No, did you?

[Blake's Baby]

More people didn't vote than voted Tory. If we were living in a democracy, there would be no government, wouln't there?

[mushroompizza]

I live in america :glare: