Who has your support?

[DAN E BOY]

I'm talking about the palatine/Israel conflict.

We all know it's been a long and difficult struggle, but who has your support/sympathy/backing?

Never seen a poll done on this so i thought I'd throw one up.

Feel free to enter comments about your reasoning as well. Thanks.

[Creative Destruction]

The Palestinians have my sympathy, as they shouldn't be oppressed or be forced in, what are essentially, open air jails by Israel. Their parties do not have my support, though. Hamas is a rank Islamist group and Fatah are useless social democrats.

[Tim Cornelis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXcOHnNlTKU

I kid, I kid. The answer should be the working class, as much as it is a platitude it's accurate enough nonetheless.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I don't think Israel is conflict with any palatines as thankfully we seem to have got rid of them all.

Also, the situation in Palestine is not a football match. Saying you "support Palestine" doesn't really mean anything. I support the Palestinian fight for the end of Israeli occupation and racism, but that doesn't mean I support the bourgeois Palestinian leadership, which is the the chief impediment to that struggle, or that I think there is a solution to the problem in capitalism.

[DAN E BOY]

I don't think Israel is conflict with any palatines as thankfully we seem to have got rid of them all.

Also, the situation in Palestine is not a football match. Saying you "support Palestine" doesn't really mean anything. I support the Palestinian fight for the end of Israeli occupation and racism, but that doesn't mean I support the bourgeois Palestinian leadership, which is the the chief impediment to that struggle, or that I think there is a solution to the problem in capitalism.



With all due respect your post is filled with inconsistencies.

The reason why your not at war with Palestine is because they can't mobilise a formal army/military. Israel can,funded by America.

The main obstacle to peace or ''chief impediment'' is not the Palestinian leadership, it's the fact the Palestinians have been driven out of their homes like dogs and not been allowed to return. And to add to that, increasing amount of land is being swallowed up by illegal Israeli settlements. which Practically every international committee has condemned.

It is Israel,that is the invading country. Not Palestine.
It is Israel,that has the army. Not Palestine.
And it is Israel, that is the obstacle to peace. Soon,there will be no Palestine.

Maybe that's the plan.

Please don't try and make out Israelis are the victims in this situation. Like i said, it's a struggle.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Read that sentence again. A (count) palatine (or court palatine or Polish gubernatorial palatine or Geoff the palatine or...) is not the same thing as a Palestinian. Of course making jokes about misspellings falls flat when you're missing words, as I do. But such is life.

And I'm not talking about "peace", which would probably mean some sort of neo-apartheid Palestine dominated by Israel, I am talking about the struggle waged by Palestinian workers against Israel, which is absolutely being derailed and strangled by the Palestinian leadership.

[DAN E BOY]

Right, ok. Thanks for the insight.

Poll and thread still open. :)

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXcOHnNlTKU

I kid, I kid. The answer should be the working class, as much as it is a platitude it's accurate enough nonetheless.

Hahaha! This is why I miss van gaal coaching at bayern. He was so much fun in interviews

[MarxG]

In my opinion, If Palestine had military power like Israel then they would be doing the same thing. Palestine and Israel are the same. The only thing different is their religion.

[DAN E BOY]

In my opinion, If Palestine had military power like Israel then they would be doing the same thing. Palestine and Israel are the same. The only thing different is their religion.


I left your post up all day to get a balance, even though i know your statement is bunkum.

If Palestine had a army to defend themselves from invasion to begin with, there would be no (Israeli) occupation at all in Palestine.

Theres several scenarios that will play out in years to come IMO: one state, two state solution or the out-right (ongoing) hijacking of Palestine until their all gone.Now the last option I'm sure the Israelis are going for,you can tell by their actions. And probably feel they can achieve, but their worldwide support is diminishing. This coupled with the fact that their surrounded by Islamic countries could be a devastating combination if they don't go to the table and do the right thing and restore justice for the wronged.

[DOOM]

Depends on. What's the issue?

[DAN E BOY]

Depends on. What's the issue?



The post you're referring to was the ''what if'' Palestine had an army.

The topic and poll is about the Israel/Palestine conflict: which side do people support/sympathise with.

[John Nada]

Palestine. They're an oppressed nation and colony of Israel. Super-profits from the occupation prop up the Israeli bourgeoisie and the Palestinian comprador bourgeoisie. This hinders a revolution in both Israel and Palestine. A revolution can only happen if the Palestinians have the right to self-determination. You can't have socialism and colonialism.

[TheRadicalAntichrist]

The revolutionary proletariat.

[Guardia Rossa]

There are pretty much no more ethic Jews. Let them stay in Europe or wathever. Taking some bunch of hebrew-speaking god-fearing europeans into some part of Arabia and call it their home is madness. They are as much Jew as I am a Tupi-Guarani native: 5%

[~Spectre]

I left your post up all day to get a balance, even though i know your statement is bunkum.

If Palestine had a army to defend themselves from invasion to begin with, there would be no (Israeli) occupation at all in Palestine.

If the situation had been reversed, they'd be the recipients of tens of billions of American financial aid and weaponry, and have all the commitments that implies.

[~Spectre]

There are pretty much no more ethic Jews. Let them stay in Europe or wathever. Taking some bunch of hebrew-speaking god-fearing europeans into some part of Arabia and call it their home is madness. They are as much Jew as I am a Tupi-Guarani native: 5%

Surely this post will make Israel give up. I suspect that upon reading it, they'll immediately pack up their massive air force and hundreds of nuclear weapons.

The key to just rewinding history is always to just make appeals to proper ethnic places and roles. You have discovered the time machine it seems.

[RedKobra]

I have sympathy for the Israeli people who just want peace but on a state level I can't but side with Palestine. Israel (the state) is engaged in nothing short of chauvinistic imperialism.

[Lanfear]

Palestine

[contracycle]

I have sympathy for the Israeli people who just want peace but on a state level I can't but side with Palestine. Israel (the state) is engaged in nothing short of chauvinistic imperialism.

If the Israeli people just want peace, why were they recently filmed cheering and applauding as bombs rained down, killing and maiming Palestinians?


The thud of shellfire, flash of an explosion and pall of smoke are greeted with exclamations of approval. "What a beauty," says one appreciative spectator.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

[RedKobra]

If the Israeli people just want peace, why were they recently filmed cheering and applauding as bombs rained down, killing and maiming Palestinians?

All Israeli's were filmed cheering? C'mon. There are plenty of Israeli's, not least some of our communist/socialist comrades, who don't agree with the actions of the Israeli state. You can't tar all of the people with the Imperialist brush. I'm anti-Israel in their conflict with the Palestinians, I'm also anti-Zionist. I am not anti-Israeli.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Palestine, but with no illusions about its class nature or internal problems (in short, "Palestine" is not a uniform entity and "Palestinians" have conflicting class interests).

[PhoenixAsh]

If the Israeli people just want peace, why were they recently filmed cheering and applauding as bombs rained down, killing and maiming Palestinians?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing



http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Poll-Majority-of-Israelis-support-responding-to-terror-with-peace-talks-381500

[contracycle]

That is indeed encouraging and hopeful news, PA.

[DAN E BOY]

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Poll-Majority-of-Israelis-support-responding-to-terror-with-peace-talks-381500



LOL the Jerusalem post, yeah that's gonna have a neutral view isn't PA. :rolleyes:

[PhoenixAsh]

Do you have a source contradicting the opinion of the population of Israel?

[contracycle]

If the methodology of the poll is sound, then there isn't any particular reason to be cynical. Frex, in the UK we have Lord Ashcroft, who is a committed Tory, but who has re-invented himself as a pollster, and whose output is taken seriously even by the left because there is, so far, no indication that he is monkeying with the results.

And in the Israeli context, this is perhaps not even very surprising, in that the hardline religious groups do not themselves feel obliged to take part in military service; so we end up with a situation in which the more secular Israelis are fighting and sometimes dying for the politics espoused by zealots who will not put themselves in danger. There are plenty of complexities and contradictions in Israel.

[jullia]

By nature, it's difficult to support a state based on race and religious standards. Problems is the other side isn't better. And i'am scare that by revenge they can be really worse.

[DAN E BOY]

Do you have a source contradicting the opinion of the population of Israel?


I'm not sure what you mean by that?

I'm not saying Ipost contradicts the Israelis point of view,i know it does not. I'm saying it might not necessarily be a true reflection of what's going on over there.

[PhoenixAsh]

But if the poll by the IDI is not good enough for you because they are Israeli

Then I guess the Israeli Peace Initiative one is out too...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-three-quarters-of-israeli-jews-would-accept-peace-deal/


...then perhaps Gallup
http://www.realclearworld.com/blog/2013/03/how_the_israelis_and_palestinians_feel_about_peace _process.html


O shit...nope...they are American...Hmmm

[PhoenixAsh]

I could post this one...which you would probably find totally believable...

http://www.jpost.com/diplomacy-and-politics/two-thirds-of-israelis-agree-with-decision-to-halt-talks-after-hamas-fatah-unity-351540

But yeah....thats the IDI...and since you already rejected IDI information...that one goes on the bin as well as unbelievable. :rolleyes:

[DAN E BOY]

If the methodology of the poll is sound, then there isn't any particular reason to be cynical.


Well of course it's sound, everyone can vote, and can only vote one time.

I gave people the option to vote for either side: Israel, Palestine or neither if their fence sitters, to avoid pushing for unwarranted support.

Damn I'm a genius. :)

[contracycle]

By nature, it's difficult to support a state based on race and religious standards. Problems is the other side isn't better. And i'am scare that by revenge they can be really worse.

South Africa, as you may know, had a Truth & Reconciliation Commission which tried to work through these. It was hard on everyone, really hard. For both sides, the deal was, that you could confess before the TRC, and you could ask those that had been wronged for forgiveness, and if they gave it, there would be no prosecution for crimes committed.

It was terrible to watch, even on TV, truly terrible. The one that sticks in my mind was a black woman whose husband and son had both been killed by the apartheid state. The killers confessed, and the prosecuting attorney asked her if she was willing to forgive. And, tears streaming down her face, she said, as best In can recall, if you are telling me that if I forgive these men, I can have my humanity back, then I agree.

Peace can be harder than war, much harder. But it can be done.

[DAN E BOY]

Stop being so damn sarcastic on my, yes ''my'' thread PA. :tt2:

It's not my forum, and i know you're a mod, but for god sakes try to be sensible.

[contracycle]

Well of course it's sound, everyone can vote, and can only vote one time.

I wasn't taking about your poll.

I'm perfectly willing to believe that the Israeli people are as fractured and divided as the population of any country. I'm perfectly willing to believe that the people wish for a peace that the politicians will not give them.

When I commented above those Israelis cheering as bombs fell, I was trying to rebut, I suppose, a sort of american media depiction of the Israelis as universal victims, almost bewildered by the fact that they find themselves at war. This image is not true; many Israelis, even if that is not most Israelis, know perfectly well what they are doing, and revel in it. Like the PriceTaggers movement, which is little more than a bunch of bitter, intolerant A-holes.

I believe there is a right and a wrong in this, but I do not believe that everyone on the wrong side is a villain and everyone on the right side is an angel. God knows I can't, because I've been too close to something too similar to ever dream it's that simple.

[Slavic]

If the Israeli people just want peace, why were they recently filmed cheering and applauding as bombs rained down, killing and maiming Palestinians?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/israelis-cheer-gaza-bombing

Nice straw man.

So a few groups of jingoists cheering on the bombing of Palestinians means that the Israeli people as a whole must be jingoist barbarians.

By that logic, I must be an immigrant hating vigelante on account of the couple of racist militias along the US-Mexico border.

[Vogel]

http://www.tytnetwork.com/2015/01/11/palestines-latest-tactic-enrages-us-israel/

[G4b3n]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXcOHnNlTKU

I kid, I kid. The answer should be the working class, as much as it is a platitude it's accurate enough nonetheless.

Ehh, I think the "working class" answer tends to muddy the waters in situations like these where there is a blatantly oppressed people in need of support.

[PhoenixAsh]

I am extremely tired writing this...

The things is....ultimately both groups are oppressed. The whole foundation of the conflict hinges on years of oppression within Europe...and much of the rest of the world cumulating in the Holocaust.

In turn this oppressed group has gained a position of strength within Palestine and because of the attitude of collective guilt by the rest of the nations in combination with the latent anti-semite attitude of "better there than here".

This group basically has nowhere else to be than in that particular spot. And this leads to an extreme nationalist, xenophobic and entrenched attitude within a "us or them" dichotomy...where there is little to no room for the "them".

Conversely this leads to the Palestinians being in the weaker position and being severely oppressed so the other oppressed group can carve out a save spot for themselves at their expense. So they rightly resist and fight back.

This conflict is further exploited by imperialism and capitalism...which will perpetuate the conflict as long as it is in their economic and strategic interest.

Where the populations of both groups want peace...their politicians, bourgeois....do not.

[Lanfear]

All Israeli's were filmed cheering? C'mon. There are plenty of Israeli's, not least some of our communist/socialist comrades, who don't agree with the actions of the Israeli state. You can't tar all of the people with the Imperialist brush. I'm anti-Israel in their conflict with the Palestinians, I'm also anti-Zionist. I am not anti-Israeli.
The only Israelis I have ever met referred to Palestinians as worse than dogs. However, Im with you. The actions of some cannot be used to tar the whole population of Israel. Nor can the actions of their government.

[PhoenixAsh]

There is a huge step between people being biggots and people wanting war and the destruction of the other group.

[Sasha]

And in the Israeli context, this is perhaps not even very surprising, in that the hardline religious groups do not themselves feel obliged to take part in military service; so we end up with a situation in which the more secular Israelis are fighting and sometimes dying for the politics espoused by zealots who will not put themselves in danger. There are plenty of complexities and contradictions in Israel.

yes "There are plenty of complexities and contradictions in Israel", but your post is proof yet again you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this subject, only a very small part off the settler/zionist movement is ultra-orthodox. in fact whole sections of the ultra orthodox reject zionism outright. Hardline right-zionism is a very different kind of beast than ultra-orthodox-ism. Most right-zionists do enlist, even the non-israeli citizen ones.

[PhoenixAsh]

Heradim make up about 10% of the population in Isreal. It is however the fastest growing Jewish group through birthrate within Israel.

[jullia]

South Africa, as you may know, had a Truth & Reconciliation Commission which tried to work through these. It was hard on everyone, really hard. For both sides, the deal was, that you could confess before the TRC, and you could ask those that had been wronged for forgiveness, and if they gave it, there would be no prosecution for crimes committed.

It was terrible to watch, even on TV, truly terrible. The one that sticks in my mind was a black woman whose husband and son had both been killed by the apartheid state. The killers confessed, and the prosecuting attorney asked her if she was willing to forgive. And, tears streaming down her face, she said, as best In can recall, if you are telling me that if I forgive these men, I can have my humanity back, then I agree.

Peace can be harder than war, much harder. But it can be done.

I heard about it. A similar system have been trying in Rwanda between Hutus and Tutsi.
To be honest, i'am sceptical about the efficient of this.

And those case you can add the religious factor.

[contracycle]

yes "There are plenty of complexities and contradictions in Israel", but your post is proof yet again you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to this subject, only a very small part off the settler/zionist movement is ultra-orthodox. in fact whole sections of the ultra orthodox reject zionism outright. Hardline right-zionism is a very different kind of beast than ultra-orthodox-ism. Most right-zionists do enlist, even the non-israeli citizen ones.

I shall forthwith write to Haaretz and explain to them that they are mistaken.

[Sasha]

probably they will reply that i'm right and that you just cant read.

the israel/palestinian conflict is not a religious conflict, its a nationalist one. zionism is not a religious project, its a nationalist project, it has always been so.

[DAN E BOY]

9547


Sorry, i couldn't help it. :)

[contracycle]

Nice straw man.

So a few groups of jingoists cheering on the bombing of Palestinians means that the Israeli people as a whole must be jingoist barbarians.

By that logic, I must be an immigrant hating vigelante on account of the couple of racist militias along the US-Mexico border.

It's not a straw man; if anything it may be an over-generalisation. But then again the claim all Israelis want is peace, to which I was responding, is an over-generalisation too, and to puncture that, all I need to show is contrary examples.

I could mention other things, frex the way Israel spent decades demanding that the PLO accept a two-state solution, and now that that is on the cards, have taken the position that a two-state solution is unacceptable. Or I could point to the fact that Israeli's keep electing politicians more and more to the right, those who talk tough whose credibility lies precisely in their militarism.

At the moment, Israel doesn't seem to have any kind of strategy or plan for bringing an end to the conflict, not even one to which they pay lip service. It seems rather more like they are trying to avoid peace, because any such agreement would imply that borders be fixed, and therefore that settlement expansion would have to stop.

So, you know, maybe I'm missing something, if you understand the situation better I would welcome your explanation.

[PhoenixAsh]

It's not a straw man; if anything it may be an over-generalisation. But then again the claim all Israelis want is peace, to which I was responding, is an over-generalisation too, and to puncture that, all I need to show is contrary examples.

I could mention other things, frex the way Israel spent decades demanding that the PLO accept a two-state solution, and now that that is on the cards, have taken the position that a two-state solution is unacceptable. Or I could point to the fact that Israeli's keep electing politicians more and more to the right, those who talk tough whose credibility lies precisely in their militarism.

At the moment, Israel doesn't seem to have any kind of strategy or plan for bringing an end to the conflict, not even one to which they pay lip service. It seems rather more like they are trying to avoid peace, because any such agreement would imply that borders be fixed, and therefore that settlement expansion would have to stop.

So, you know, maybe I'm missing something, if you understand the situation better I would welcome your explanation.

You know...

...you keep glossing over your gross neglicient, purposefully wrong, antagonizing, straw man arguments...and even downright anti-semitic statements by bringing up other points.

What you actually did was use an extremely small portion of the population as being completely representative of the rest of the population. By and large you are wrong on your assessment of what the Israeli people want...consequently...in every poll for year after year the majority of the Israeli population is favoring an end to the conflict.

Your extreme overgeneralization of a fraction of the population is NOT a valid argument...and in context it is completely idiotic to even argue it. Your mentioned strategy only shows that we should not even begin to take you seriously.

[contracycle]

...you keep glossing over your gross neglicient, purposefully wrong, antagonizing, straw man arguments...and even downright anti-semitic statements by bringing up other points.

If find your dishonesty unedifying.


What you actually did was use an extremely small portion of the population as being completely representative of the rest of the population.


No, I did not do that. This is factual error you are making at best, and deliberate dishonesty at worst.



By and large you are wrong on your assessment of what the Israeli people want...consequently...in every poll for year after year the majority of the Israeli population is favoring an end to the conflict.

But that isn't enough. There were always white South Africans who wanted the conflict to stop, but not at the cost of ending apartheid. I don't doubt that plenty, indeed virtually all, Israelis would like this to end, because who after all is mad enough to deliberately choose death and killing? The question is rather, are they willing to engage with something, anything, that contains enough justice that peace can actually be achieved?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Israel is unquestionably the aggressor in this situation but the idea that the PLO or Hamas deserve support (or that western leftist support counts for shit in the first place) is a position borne of ignorance. I dream of a future where where Israelis and Palestinians join forces to invade Germany and build a new revolutionary homeland over the smoldering ruins of Berlin.

[RedKobra]

Bit harsh on Germans.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Only the guilty tremble

[DAN E BOY]

Israel is unquestionably the aggressor in this situation but the idea that the PLO or Hamas deserve support (or that western leftist support counts for shit in the first place) is a position borne of ignorance. I dream of a future where where Israelis and Palestinians join forces to invade Germany and build a new revolutionary homeland over the smoldering ruins of Berlin.



HA HA HA.

Thanks for a good laugh there. :laugh:

[Ⓐdh0crat]

'Israel' and 'Palestine' are bourgeois states, operated by opportunist elites with little regard for their populations' well-being. Let's quit pretending that the Israeli government, with an army composed largely of young conscripts, is in any way accountable to the workers below it. It smacks of the Western media line that the Palestinians must all be warlike savages because of Hamas' weekly Toys R' Us rockets campaigns. The whole debate is framed as an extended property dispute ('stolen land', 'right to return', etc.). Not only is this irreconcilable with core leftist principles, but it sets a massive burden in the way of any potential, lasting settlement.

A leftist should support neither Israel nor Palestine. A leftist should throw their towel in behind the working people of the region, a mostly apolitical bunch who demand little more than common dignity.

[PhoenixAsh]

No, I did not do that. This is factual error you are making at best, and deliberate dishonesty at worst.

Are you serious? Because you litterally did exactly that in this thread a few posts back.




But that isn't enough. There were always white South Africans who wanted the conflict to stop, but not at the cost of ending apartheid. I don't doubt that plenty, indeed virtually all, Israelis would like this to end, because who after all is mad enough to deliberately choose death and killing? The question is rather, are they willing to engage with something, anything, that contains enough justice that peace can actually be achieved?

You are still wrong. No matter how you try to shift, tilt or balance it. The fact remains that the majority of the Israeli population is in fact not favoring the continuation of conflict but favoring a peaceful solution. This is the claim you disputed.

Your position whether or not they are willing to engage in something meaningful in terms of reconciliation or to affect that peace is a valid question but wrongly contextualized. Israel is a bourgeois state which is directly placed center in a network of imperialist concerns. The wants of the population don't really feature into that concept.

[contracycle]

Are you serious? Because you litterally did exactly that in this thread a few posts back.

No, I certainly did not. And your escalating campaign of lies and slander is pissing me the fuck off.



You are still wrong. No matter how you try to shift, tilt or balance it. The fact remains that the majority of the Israeli population is in fact not favoring the continuation of conflict but favoring a peaceful solution. This is the claim you disputed.

This is a lie. I only described the Israeli state as acting in a manner that it knows is provocative, shifting the goal posts etc.

As to the state of mind of the Israeli people, I would point you to this analogy: if you encountered someone who claimed to want to bring about socialism, but only through parliamentary means, you would probably say that they didn't really want socialism after all, wouldn't you? Even if you allowed that they were well-intentioned, you would probably still regard them as naive and unrealistic, and therefore useless; indeed, possibly an active hindrance.

All I'm pointing out is that wanting peace is well and good, but if the only means you are willing to countenance is the complete submission of the other side, and the abandonment of all its goals, what you are supporting is not really "peace", it's "victory".


Your position whether or not they are willing to engage in something meaningful in terms of reconciliation or to affect that peace is a valid question but wrongly contextualized. Israel is a bourgeois state which is directly placed center in a network of imperialist concerns. The wants of the population don't really feature into that concept.

Sure I acknowledge that. After all, in the SA scenario, is wasn't the white populace that demanded a real settlement, it was the bourgeois state, in the form of FW de Klerk, that actually did so, pretty much without a popular mandate. It certainly wasn't part of the platform on which he and his government were elected.

What I think you're missing though, is not only that the bourgeois state has all the means of state propaganda at its disposal, but also that for the Israeli populace to genuinely seek a workable peace requires first admitting that they are in the wrong, which is very hard for anyone to do.

[PhoenixAsh]

No, I certainly did not. And your escalating campaign of lies and slander is pissing me the fuck off.

Ehhh...lies and slander? I think not:








If the Israeli people just want peace, why were they recently filmed cheering and applauding as bombs rained down, killing and maiming Palestinians?

Quote:
The thud of shellfire, flash of an explosion and pall of smoke are greeted with exclamations of approval. "What a beauty," says one appreciative spectator.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...r-gaza-bombing




So no...this is EXACTLY what you did and your accusations of me lying are blatantly perposterous and ridiculous.


This is a lie. I only described the Israeli state as acting in a manner that it knows is provocative, shifting the goal posts etc.

I refer to the quoted post above...where you do not mention the Israeli state...once.

When you were attacked on this position you defended it. Only after a few posts did you start mentioning the Israeli state.



As to the state of mind of the Israeli people, I would point you to this analogy: if you encountered someone who claimed to want to bring about socialism, but only through parliamentary means, you would probably say that they didn't really want socialism after all, wouldn't you?

No...but I would not call them a socialist but social democrat...and I would think, argue and act they are wrong.


Even if you allowed that they were well-intentioned, you would probably still regard them as naive and unrealistic, and therefore useless; indeed, possibly an active hindrance.

Only if they persist in their foolishness.


All I'm pointing out is that wanting peace is well and good, but if the only means you are willing to countenance is the complete submission of the other side, and the abandonment of all its goals, what you are supporting is not really "peace", it's "victory".

Hmmmm...kind of like people pretending to be against racism and anti-semitism and not acting when they encounter it?

Check.


On the other hand the analogy is nice and sound (except for me disagreeing with the "wanting victory part")...however...you didn't exactly do this or conclude this. In fact...you used the article to argue the Israeli population do not want peace at all. Again...I erefr to your own words in the quoted post.



Sure I acknowledge that. After all, in the SA scenario, is wasn't the white populace that demanded a real settlement, it was the bourgeois state, in the form of FW de Klerk, that actually did so, pretty much without a popular mandate. It certainly wasn't part of the platform on which he and his government were elected.

What I think you're missing though, is not only that the bourgeois state has all the means of state propaganda at its disposal, but also that for the Israeli populace to genuinely seek a workable peace requires first admitting that they are in the wrong, which is very hard for anyone to do.

I think you are missing the point here. The population isn't wrong. The population wants peace. That is contrary to policy and the interests of the bourgeois...who created the situation in the first place. The point you are not getting is that while the population has agency to some extend...they are limited by the system they are in. The logical conclusion of your argument is that everything a country does is to be blamed on the population, regardless of how much they disagree with the policies of their government, on the mere fact that the population doesn't change the system.

[contracycle]

So no...this is EXACTLY what you did and your accusations of me lying are blatantly perposterous and ridiculous.

It absolutely is not, and I already explained why: to demonstrate that a generalisation is untrue I only have to find a contradictory example. And seeing as I have already made this point, and yet here you are deliberately and mendaciously misrepresenting it again, my allegation of lies and slander stands.


I refer to the quoted post above...where you do not mention the Israeli state...once.

When you were attacked on this position you defended it. Only after a few posts did you start mentioning the Israeli state.

This is facile. When Jewish Israelis are seen barracking an inter-faith wedding and chanting that the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian, it is difficult to understand how it is that these people can be said to want peace.

All you're trying to do is whitewash the bigotry and hatred away.



No...but I would not call them a socialist but social democrat...and I would think, argue and act they are wrong.

Only if they persist in their foolishness.

Quite so. And that is what I'm doing. I'm pointing out that you can;t really say you want peace if what you mean by peace is total and unconditional surrender by the other side.

Every oppressive power tries this on. The British claimed to want peace in Northern Ireland, as long as it was a peace where they got everything and the IRA got nothing. This isn't a genuine desire for peace, it;'s merely self-justificatory posturing.



Hmmmm...kind of like people pretending to be against racism and anti-semitism and not acting when they encounter it?

Oh, you mean like when you suggest that all Jews are somehow responsible for Israel? Indeed.


On the other hand the analogy is nice and sound (except for me disagreeing with the "wanting victory part")...however...you didn't exactly do this or conclude this. In fact...you used the article to argue the Israeli population do not want peace at all. Again...I erefr to your own words in the quoted post.

As I have made quite clear, they want a "peace" that is so one-sided as to be impossible, and so to describe them as wanting peace is no more than colonial apologia.



I think you are missing the point here. The population isn't wrong. The population wants peace. That is contrary to policy and the interests of the bourgeois...who created the situation in the first place. The point you are not getting is that while the population has agency to some extend...they are limited by the system they are in. The logical conclusion of your argument is that everything a country does is to be blamed on the population, regardless of how much they disagree with the policies of their government, on the mere fact that the population doesn't change the system.

No I haven't said that I BLAME the population. In many ways I understand the situation they are in very well. After all, in a society with universal conscription, almost everyone gets put through the mill of state propaganda.

But the opposite case is untenable - you can't claim that all Israeli Jews, universally, want is peace, when you have a movement of PriceTaggers who are carrying out their own, entirely private, acts of vandalism and intimidation against Palestinians. I mean, which rationalisation would you prefer, are PriceTaggers part of the bourgeois state, or are these acts of petty terror "peace"?

Moreover, you should know as well as I do that on those occasions when the IDF has gone in to move illegal settlers, they face abuse and in some cases stoning. How can you honestly claim that the citizenry wants peace, and it is only the state that is the problem, when some of those citizens are using violence against the state not in the pursuit of peace, but in pursuit of further occupation and expansion?

The idea that the Israeli citizenry en bloc want peace - even the kind of fake peace that really means the total defeat of the other side - and is being hoodwinked by their own government just does not hang together. Why is it so hard to accept that the public can be just as divided, just as self-regarding, just as hypocritical, as the public of any other colonial power has been?

[PhoenixAsh]

It absolutely is not, and I already explained why: to demonstrate that a generalisation is untrue I only have to find a contradictory example. And seeing as I have already made this point, and yet here you are deliberately and mendaciously misrepresenting it again, my allegation of lies and slander stands.

Except that you made your point several posts after...and you first posted this:


This image is not true; many Israelis, even if that is not most Israelis, know perfectly well what they are doing, and revel in it.



This is facile. When Jewish Israelis are seen barracking an inter-faith wedding and chanting that the only good Palestinian is a dead Palestinian, it is difficult to understand how it is that these people can be said to want peace.

But there is no "these people" when you use individuals as exemplary of the entire population.



All you're trying to do is whitewash the bigotry and hatred away.

I am not. I am trying to put it in perspective for you since you obviously have problems doing so.


Quite so. And that is what I'm doing. I'm pointing out that you can;t really say you want peace if what you mean by peace is total and unconditional surrender by the other side.

Except that is not what they say.


Every oppressive power tries this on. The British claimed to want peace in Northern Ireland, as long as it was a peace where they got everything and the IRA got nothing. This isn't a genuine desire for peace, it;'s merely self-justificatory posturing.

Did "the British" say that? Do you have a source?



Oh, you mean like when you suggest that all Jews are somehow responsible for Israel? Indeed.

Quote pls .


As I have made quite clear, they want a "peace" that is so one-sided as to be impossible, and so to describe them as wanting peace is no more than colonial apologia.

Really? Then you would have no problem providing us with polls to that effect. Right?


No I haven't said that I BLAME the population. In many ways I understand the situation they are in very well. After all, in a society with universal conscription, almost everyone gets put through the mill of state propaganda.

Also in states without universal conscription. But this is not the point. So far you have not shown one iota of understanding.


But the opposite case is untenable - you can't claim that all Israeli Jews, universally, want is peace, when you have a movement of PriceTaggers who are carrying out their own, entirely private, acts of vandalism and intimidation against Palestinians. I mean, which rationalisation would you prefer, are PriceTaggers part of the bourgeois state, or are these acts of petty terror "peace"?

Since nobody really argued that at all the point is a bit futile.

Funny that you fail to mention that price taggers also target the IDF and Christians/Druze. And are labelled a criminal gang bordering on terrorist by Shin Bet. Estimates are that the group consists at the very most of 3000 supporters of whom only a few 100 are active.


Moreover, you should know as well as I do that on those occasions when the IDF has gone in to move illegal settlers, they face abuse and in some cases stoning. How can you honestly claim that the citizenry wants peace, and it is only the state that is the problem, when some of those citizens are using violence against the state not in the pursuit of peace, but in pursuit of further occupation and expansion?

So you are arguing that the Israeli population does not in majority want peace. This of course contradicts your entire opening paragraph.


The idea that the Israeli citizenry en bloc want peace

Again...nobody argued that. But the generalization that "the Israeli population" wants peace based on peace being the majority vote....is much more true than your assertion, based on fringe groups and several 1000 people, they push for war.


- even the kind of fake peace that really means the total defeat of the other side - and is being hoodwinked by their own government just does not hang together. Why is it so hard to accept that the public can be just as divided, just as self-regarding, just as hypocritical, as the public of any other colonial power has been?

Again...you are creating a straw man since nobody actually argued that the entirety of the ISraeli population wants peace. Your failure to understand of the linguistically and statistically correct generalization of "the Israeli population" based on the statistical evidence does not mean
every single Israeli citizen.

So no. I don't accept your argument here. It is a straw man shift.