Misanthropy

[Counterculturalist]

Yesterday I attended the first session of a class I'm taking about the concept of "belonging" as it relates to library cataloguing. It's basically a straight philosophy class; the format is seminar/discussion-style. We sit around in a circle and talk philosophy.

Over the course of the class, we moved from discussing Aristotle into a conversation about the environmentalist movement. A significant amount of the people involved in the conversation took a strong anti-environmentalist stance.

However, their perspective wasn't from a place of conservatism or free-market idealism. Instead, they seemed to be taking a radical anti-human stance. The planet can live without us, they argued, and would be better off that way. Since it's going to happen eventually anyway, who cares what our corporate overlords do to the planet? It's only our unchecked egotism that makes us care about what happens to our children and grandchildren.

I bit my tongue. I don't want to be "that guy" who tries to dominate every discussion and bring the subject to socialism. But what an idiotic position to take.

For all their ultra-radical posturing, they were making the corporate elite's arguments for them. And this from graduate students, the so-called "best and brightest." Seems to confirm Marx's dictum that the ideas of the ruling class are those that permeate society as a whole. Today, the dominant idea is a virulently nihilistic misanthropy.

When I was a teenager, I often pretended to be a misanthrope. It was a cover for my own crippling social anxiety and lack of confidence. Feels better to blame others for your inability to make meaningful connections. This is understandable behavior for an alienated teenager. How can we get intelligent adults to abandon this mindset?

[PhoenixAsh]

Misanthropy is not necessarilly a bad issue. The problem you describe is not merely misanthropic. Misanthropy is not generally the exact same as uncaring towards specific humans or even to humans in general but is a general distrust and dislike against humanity as a whole or the idea that humanity is an aberration.

What you describe goes beyond misanthropy and enters the field of existential pessimism and extreme egocentrism.

[Counterculturalist]

Point taken, and I was certainly simplifying the concept of misanthropy. I would argue, though, that capitalism has found, in the prevailing anti-humanistic mindset, a far stronger ally than something like the protestant work ethic. After all, capitalism has no choice but to continue accumulating. If it destroys all human life in the process, so be it. Part of the project of rejecting capitalism must acknowledge that human life is, in fact, worth fighting for.

[Thirsty Crow]

Today, the dominant idea is a virulently nihilistic misanthropy.
Do you really believe this to be the case? I don't see this as plausible since it always seemed that such misanthropic sentiments and ideas connected to it are rather scarce. It would make little sense for the ideologues of the ruling class to promote such views since the ruling ideology can't really do without some "connecting gel", an element of alleged unity and community which is wielded to induce allegiance and particular forms of behavior. Nationalism is a good example.

[PhoenixAsh]

Often the criticism is that the revolutionary left is misanthropic...mostly by liberals and libertarians who view capitalism as a positive force which will enable humanity to better itself and prosper and who view revolution as a potential threat against progress and standard of living.

I think capitalism is something that stimulates a certain amount of egoism and self-centered progress through alienation which in turn triggers misanthropic attitudes in others. I am not sure but I believe it was either Aristotle or Plato who argued that misanthropy was caused by disillusionment in others and that misanthropy was a result of being consistently disappointed by a positive view of humanity and positive mindset about humans.

I share that idea. I also view misanthropy as something neutral rather than negative which is something that is seperate from ethics but illustrates the necessity for ethical behaviour and does not disable ability to care about people (specific or general).

So when I look at what you describe I tend to think and feel that the pessimism is the logical result of alienation and not directly a sign of alliance but of resignation.

Incidentally: Protestantism in my opinion is a highly pessimistic and also misanthropic image of humanity. Although I do have to say that Protestantism is an umbrella term which generalizes an incredibly array of different streams.


Personally I am highly misanthropic and think humanity is a virulent plague not particularly worthy of rescue...but rather a fact of life that has to be accepted. I don't think that feeling humanity is worth saving is a driving factor in rejecting capitalism but rather the realization, logically and emotionally, that the current relations are failing and dehumanizing as well as realizing class interests within the confines that humanity is a fait a complis.

[Counterculturalist]

It's mostly a personal observation. Maybe a better characterization would be extreme individualism combined with an utter lack of empathy. To use one venue of propagation of ideas as an example, mass culture is full of exhortations to "get what's yours" and fuck everybody else. Those who fancy themselves as intellectuals (such as my classmates) seem to have internalized this way of thinking.

Capitalism, as it grows more extreme and all-encompassing, has to evolve, and so does the ideology that helps sustain it. Religion, nationalism, even bigotry are all becoming less effective for this task. Notice that racism, sexism and homophobia are being seen by the vast majority of people as more and more of an ugly aberration. Capitalism will have no choice but to adapt to this, and is already in the process of doing so.

This change in public perception is an undeniably positive development, but it seems to me to be accompanied by an increasing lack of respect for human life and dignity in general. The idea seems to be that being a racist is wrong, but caring if people starve to death is stupid, because people are generally worthless.

Capitalism is nihilistic at its core. It will best flourish in a nihilistic society.

[Counterculturalist]

Personally I am highly misanthropic and think humanity is a virulent plague not particularly worthy of rescue...but rather a fact of life that has to be accepted. I don't think that feeling humanity is worth saving is a driving factor in rejecting capitalism but rather the realization, logically and emotionally, that the current relations are failing and dehumanizing as well as realizing class interests within the confines that humanity is a fait a complis.

While you and I would disagree about the merits of humanity, your position at least accepts some sort of struggle for positive change. The anti-humanism that I think is becoming linked with capitalism is the kind that implies that anything that happens to us as a species is justified, and would discourage fighting against oil companies that pollute the planet, for example.

[Thirsty Crow]

To use one venue of propagation of ideas as an example, mass culture is full of exhortations to "get what's yours" and fuck everybody else. Those who fancy themselves as intellectuals (such as my classmates) seem to have internalized this way of thinking.But this isn't necessarily misanthropic, or better yet, it isn't most of the time enveloped with a broader misanthropic idea that humans are shit and a plague upon this Earth. The aggressive, possessive egoism of some strains of the ruling ideology are actually based on something entirely different if we consider misanthropy as a wholesome "rejection" of humanity. In fact, this kind of thinking extols the individual and is directed at pretty much everyone - but misanthropes, at least actual ones, hardly engage in such illusory self-deification, at least if any such misanthropy isn't particularly motivated by such stories and a sense of aggressive self-assertion (especially in perceived combat with "the collective").

Anyway. Perhaps it's best to distinguish between variants and shades of misanthropy.


Religion, nationalism, even bigotry are all becoming less effective for this task. I don't think that nationalism in particular has become any less effective.


Notice that racism, sexism and homophobia are being seen by the vast majority of people as more and more of an ugly aberration. Do you have any comparative study that takes data into account to back that up? Again, conflating the official ideology of one particular section of the ruling class with "the majority" isn't the best way to go. I'm not suggesting that you're definitely wrong, just that I find such generalizing statements inherently problematic when they're products of a person's impression about people.

A another problem is that this doesn't hold in other parts of the world. For instance, I wouldn't say that this is correct in relation to the country where I live. I'd cite a study conducted in relation to prejudice and xenophobia in particular, but that would a) take more time than I can afford right now and b) it would be off-topic to an extent. Still, it's curious that racism, particularly in relation to asylum seekers, is more prominent than ethnic chauvinism directed against Serbs (I mention Serbs because of the fostered ethnic and national hatred and conflict as legacy of the 1990s war here). The relative respectability of such views - based on media hot shots and ideologue's proclamations and writing - can be debated but it is manifestly not the case that more and more people are wary and critical of such views, at least here.

[Ravn]

Often the criticism is that the revolutionary left is misanthropic...mostly by liberals and libertarians ... Personally I am highly misanthropic and think humanity is a virulent plague not particularly worthy of rescue....

You go out of your way to confirm a projection, & your view is diametrically opposed to anything socially constructive.

[Counterculturalist]

Do you have any comparative study that takes data into account to back that up? Again, conflating the official ideology of one particular section of the ruling class with "the majority" isn't the best way to go. I'm not suggesting that you're definitely wrong, just that I find such generalizing statements inherently problematic when they're products of a person's impression about people.


I don't have any data to back up my contentions, and you're correct to criticize me for generalizing based on my own personal observations.

Just to explain where those observations come from (without insisting on their legitimacy), I have noted with interest how bigotry has very quickly become "uncool" - both in mainstream public discourse, and in private conversations with people. I grew up in a small, industrial city in southern Ontario. As a child and teenager, almost everybody I knew was racist, sexist and homophobic. That has changed over the past ten years or so. When I talk to people I went to high school with twenty years ago, I notice that they no longer seem to harbor such hatred, at least not openly.

Just another quick example, from mass media: up until about 5 years ago, you would never see an interracial relationship in a Hollywood movie, unless it was a major plot point. Recently it has become commonplace.

I had been thinking about this less bigoted version of capitalist ideology and its conflict with an older form of capitalism that, while still existing, seemed to be to be in its death throes. Things like racist police violence, anti-immigration sentiment, or the existence of men's rights activists were, to me, symbolic of this old version of capitalism trying desperately to hold onto legitimacy. I started thinking about a newer capitalism emerging that was more egalitarian on its surface, while being more destructively anti-human than ever before on the inside.

You have pointed out the problems with this analysis quite well though, namely, vague terminology, an overreliance on personal experience/observation, and a North America-centric standpoint, all of which would need to be addressed should I choose to take these ideas further.

[PhoenixAsh]

You go out of your way to confirm a projection, & your view is diametrically opposed to anything socially constructive.

I don't care about humanity as a whole and I do not pretend to care about random individuals I have never met in my life (especially not in order to suck up to others so I can fit in or get their approval) in particular.

However, unlike you think, there is no requirement in communism or anarchism to actually care about all individuals and all people. This is a fabrication. It may be your thing...but it is not a part of class consciousness, nor an essential part of Marxist and Anarchist ideology.

Nor is it any obstruction to actual activism and activist experience and nor does it mean I do not care about anybody however shallow or deeply.

Now I know you are dumb as a board and have a complete lack of knowledge. You leave no chance to show this. I am not faulting you for your ignorance...I am faulting you for your dedication to and your revelling and persistance in it. Basically I view you as the personification of what was meant with the litterary phrase: "Hell is other people" and a prime example of Plato's arguement that positive people are the most likely to become misanthropes by exposure to the disappointment of being proven wrong in that optimism by other people...you are such a disappointment.

Long story short...I know you have no fucking clue about Misanthropy and what it is, what it stands for and are completely unaware of the fact that, for example, it is highly in line with the later Marx (for example) and also not devoid of ethics and strong drive to the well being of other individuals.

Now you need to thrive on the basis of dishonest statements and expressed sentiments of "truely caring" about individuals you know fuck all about and are as a matter of fact only an item for you temporarilly and because it directly suits your personaly needs (I am of course refering to our last exchange in which these were your exact arguments). Your pretended care for individuals is as fake as WWE.

I personally don't care what you need in order to make you feel better or what you need in order to feel you are contributing (by posting on this forum). I dislike those people who pretend to care...but I loath people who want to push that warm fuzzy caring feeling as an obligation for revolutionaries and the scale of measurement to which revolutionary intent can be measured (and yes...you argued this...for pages) and as a measure of positivity. I don't think your fake caring is a positive force but rather a result of some polite politically correct liberal consciousness...which is hurting social relations more than poverty. It is the same pretence of caring that is exhibited so very often in the world of charity...where people pretend to care but merely put their coin in the collection box so they can bribe their own nagging guilt and move on.

Now I know you feel intimidated by me and I somehow trigger your inferiority complex which causes you to therefore have this unrepressable urge to drag our disagreements over to other threads so your can post your mere ad hominem...but simply put: suck it up and learn to live with the facts...and stop trying to bully me into caring about people I do not care about. You are setting yourself up for disappointment and which will ultimately only lead you to become Misanthropic. I would hate for you to lose your dishonest fakery.

[BIXX]

Capitalism is nihilistic at its core. It will best flourish in a nihilistic society.

Yeah, no. You're completely wrong.

[PhoenixAsh]

I don't have any data to back up my contentions, and you're correct to criticize me for generalizing based on my own personal observations.

Just to explain where those observations come from (without insisting on their legitimacy), I have noted with interest how bigotry has very quickly become "uncool" - both in mainstream public discourse, and in private conversations with people. I grew up in a small, industrial city in southern Ontario. As a child and teenager, almost everybody I knew was racist, sexist and homophobic. That has changed over the past ten years or so. When I talk to people I went to high school with twenty years ago, I notice that they no longer seem to harbor such hatred, at least not openly.

Just another quick example, from mass media: up until about 5 years ago, you would never see an interracial relationship in a Hollywood movie, unless it was a major plot point. Recently it has become commonplace.

I had been thinking about this less bigoted version of capitalist ideology and its conflict with an older form of capitalism that, while still existing, seemed to be to be in its death throes. Things like racist police violence, anti-immigration sentiment, or the existence of men's rights activists were, to me, symbolic of this old version of capitalism trying desperately to hold onto legitimacy. I started thinking about a newer capitalism emerging that was more egalitarian on its surface, while being more destructively anti-human than ever before on the inside.

You have pointed out the problems with this analysis quite well though, namely, vague terminology, an overreliance on personal experience/observation, and a North America-centric standpoint, all of which would need to be addressed should I choose to take these ideas further.

I think it is a very good subject to have made a thread about eventhough some of us disagree with your assessment or see problems with it.

All the things you mention though are issues that result either from capitalism (class society) or patriarchy and are not necessarilly a result of either pessimism or misanthropy. More generally these aspects are driven by fear of a detrimental effect on humanity and human social relations and aim at a positive contribution (with which I mean these views are generally intended to have a positive impact on humanity and/or social relations...not that these views are positive in the sense of favorable or good). Because of that very reason they are not Misanthropic nor Philosophical Pessimistic or Extentialist.

Like I said...in my opinion...they result from a certain amount of alienation, the growing individualization within society and the continuous strategy of divide and conquer that lead to a pessimistic position of egoism and short term visions out of sheer desperation, powerlessness and gradual despondency.

People do not feel empowered. They feel their actions have little to no effect and they can't influence the way they think things are...they become disillusioned and more accepting of social realities and paradigms. This leads to a negative and often egocentric ideological position.

Ask the same people if they would prefer things to be different...and they will most likely answer either positively or deny the possibility of it happening.

[Counterculturalist]

All the things you mention though are issues that result either from capitalism (class society) or patriarchy and are not necessarilly a result of either pessimism or misanthropy. More generally these aspects are driven by fear of a detrimental effect on humanity and human social relations and aim at a positive contribution (with which I mean these views are generally intended to have a positive impact on humanity and/or social relations...not that these views are positive in the sense of favorable or good). Because of that very reason they are not Misanthropic nor Philosophical Pessimistic or Extentialist.

Like I said...in my opinion...they result from a certain amount of alienation, the growing individualization within society and the continuous strategy of divide and conquer that lead to a pessimistic position of egoism and short term visions out of sheer desperation, powerlessness and gradual despondency.

People do not feel empowered. They feel their actions have little to no effect and they can't influence the way they think things are...they become disillusioned and more accepting of social realities and paradigms. This leads to a negative and often egocentric ideological position.

Ask the same people if they would prefer things to be different...and they will most likely answer either positively or deny the possibility of it happening.

On this, we basically agree. I did not mean to suggest that anti-humanist ideology is the cause of issues that arise out of capitalism/class society. Ideology supports capitalism, it doesn't cause it.

The way I see anti-humanist ideology as supporting capitalism is by justifying that sense of despair and powerlessness that people feel. It functions as a psychological defense mechanism, much in the same way that my anti-social posturing did for me as a teenager. "There's nothing we can do to save humanity? Good! People suck anyway."

[Creative Destruction]

PA: is the criterion for misanthropy that you don't care about any particular person and humanity as a whole; or is it either/or? I am pretty much a shut in and only have a few very close friends and really only hang out with my wife, and that is enough for me. I don't care about other people's personal problems enough to get involved with friendships that would inevitably carry in that baggage. But I have a sense of caring for humanity as a whole and that in-part drives my wanting to see communism ushered in (though I suspect I'd still be a communist even if that weren't true.) Would that be characterized as a misanthropic position, or just self-centered?

[Counterculturalist]

Yeah, no. You're completely wrong.

Haha, I might well be completely wrong to use the word "nihilistic" when I mean "anti-humanistic." Obviously capitalism accompanies a fanatical belief in the infallibility of free markets, and since it entails such profound belief, it can't accurately be characterized as nihilistic. My bad.

[PhoenixAsh]

PA: is the criterion for misanthropy that you don't care about any particular person and humanity as a whole; or is it either/or? I am pretty much a shut in and only have a few very close friends and really only hang out with my wife, and that is enough for me. I don't care about other people's personal problems enough to get involved with friendships that would inevitably carry in that baggage. But I have a sense of caring for humanity as a whole and that in-part drives my wanting to see communism ushered in (though I suspect I'd still be a communist even if that weren't true.) Would that be characterized as a misanthropic position, or just self-centered?

Misanthropy is the general distrust and negative view of humanity and human nature as a whole which can be expressed in hatred or disdain for humanity...but isn't necessarilly the case. Aspects could lead you to not care about humans in general or humans you have no bond with but this does not define misanthropy and is generally a result of it.

You are not a misanthrope if you don't have, need or want a large social circle or do not really care about the problems of other people. Although extreme misanthropes don't mingle well either simply because they hate humanity and want to shut themselves out as much as possible.

Your position could be self-centered or you could simply be high sensitive and/or have a more introvert personality. I don't know you well enough.

[Thirsty Crow]

PA: is the criterion for misanthropy that you don't care about any particular person and humanity as a whole; or is it either/or? I am pretty much a shut in and only have a few very close friends and really only hang out with my wife, and that is enough for me. I don't care about other people's personal problems enough to get involved with friendships that would inevitably carry in that baggage. But I have a sense of caring for humanity as a whole and that in-part drives my wanting to see communism ushered in (though I suspect I'd still be a communist even if that weren't true.) Would that be characterized as a misanthropic position, or just self-centered?It is, quite clearly, neither.

Nothing you say enables anyone to speak about you being self-centered; the relationship you mention go against such an attitude, and the fact we don't actually know how these relationships work (it might be that you're self-centered in that regard) means we can't say.

Your sense of caring for humanity pretty much automatically disqualifies any talk of misanthropy. And about misanthropy, not caring isn't what constitutes phenomena we describe with that word. In short, misanthropy relates to an actively disdainful, even outright hateful view of humanity.

[PhoenixAsh]

While the word quite literally means hatred of humans...actual hatred is not the predominant qualification but rather distrust and negativism about humanity. Often this is highly contradicting to how misanthrope behave in society and most often they are social and have a compassionate humanistic behaviour towards humans in general. Misanthropes often are highly scaptical of the idea a peaceful society is possible because they think human nature will ultimately see to it that society will implode on itself or deteriorate and they do not believe in socal rules of interaction and find social etiquette highly hypocritical and distasteful.

Misanthropes generally have the attitude of wanting to be left alone...or the urge to change the social rules and constructs in order to improve social relations from the point where they are at at that specific point.

[Thirsty Crow]

While the word quite literally means hatred of humans...actual hatred is not the predominant qualification but rather distrust and negativism about humanity.Well yes, that's what I was going for with that "even hateful". Distrust, negative attitude, disdain.


Often this is highly contradicting to how misanthrope behave in society and most often they are social and have a compassionate humanistic behaviour towards humans in general.

That's curious. I mean, I guess this indeed occurs with some people. With others though, apathetic behavior is the norm. But the disconnect between proclaimed ideas and behavior is really interesting.

If there is really a disconnect; I'm implicitly assuming that there is a tight correspondence between how people think and act. What kind of a connection we're dealing with is another matter.

[MarxistWorld]

Hi all, this is a very interesting topic, because I like psychology a lot, and the observation of the behaviour patterns of humans and societies.

Well, from my own personal point of view (i don't know if I am right or wrong, with what I will say here about the way most americans behave). But I do think that the type of political-economic social order that exists in USA stimulates people to hate each other, to ignore each other, to evade eye-contact with each other. Specially in supermarkets and public areas, you can read the body language, and facial expressions of people and how most people in America do not specifically want to kill each other, want to destroy each other. But most americans try to ignore and evade each other. It is a very hidden subtle type of hatred. There is a sort of cold hidden subtle weak hatred between most americans.

However, I might be wrong, because the excess of working, hassles and daily chores in the daily routine of most americans, might lead to a physical tiredness, and emotional and mental exhaustion, that might lead to extreme apathy, introverted behavior in most americans. (maybe the excess of too many chores introduced in the daily life of people in America is what might lead to that state of social-phobia, mysanthropic anti-people behavior that most americans have


.




It's mostly a personal observation. Maybe a better characterization would be extreme individualism combined with an utter lack of empathy. To use one venue of propagation of ideas as an example, mass culture is full of exhortations to "get what's yours" and fuck everybody else. Those who fancy themselves as intellectuals (such as my classmates) seem to have internalized this way of thinking.

Capitalism, as it grows more extreme and all-encompassing, has to evolve, and so does the ideology that helps sustain it. Religion, nationalism, even bigotry are all becoming less effective for this task. Notice that racism, sexism and homophobia are being seen by the vast majority of people as more and more of an ugly aberration. Capitalism will have no choice but to adapt to this, and is already in the process of doing so.

This change in public perception is an undeniably positive development, but it seems to me to be accompanied by an increasing lack of respect for human life and dignity in general. The idea seems to be that being a racist is wrong, but caring if people starve to death is stupid, because people are generally worthless.

Capitalism is nihilistic at its core. It will best flourish in a nihilistic society.

[motion denied]

please be trotskistmarx

[MarxistWorld]

Hi, mysanthropic behaviour might also be caused by emotional contagion (a theory that says that people emultate the behaviour patterns of the place where they live, people behave by imitation). So mysanthropic individualist behaviour that exists in America in most people (except extroverted immigrants etc), might be caused not only by the excess of activities, the individualist urban planning, the social architecture of the whole USA and many many other factors, like cities built very horizontally, preventing social gathering etc. But also that mysanthropic behaviour might have been exported from the ultra-individualists of the british colonizers and pilgrims who came to settle to North America and began to establish an ultra-individualist way of life. And that behaviour script all the way from 1600s is still very powerful today in America







Well yes, that's what I was going for with that "even hateful". Distrust, negative attitude, disdain.


That's curious. I mean, I guess this indeed occurs with some people. With others though, apathetic behavior is the norm. But the disconnect between proclaimed ideas and behavior is really interesting.

If there is really a disconnect; I'm implicitly assuming that there is a tight correspondence between how people think and act. What kind of a connection we're dealing with is another matter.

[PhoenixAsh]

Well yes, that's what I was going for with that "even hateful". Distrust, negative attitude, disdain.


That's curious. I mean, I guess this indeed occurs with some people. With others though, apathetic behavior is the norm. But the disconnect between proclaimed ideas and behavior is really interesting.

If there is really a disconnect; I'm implicitly assuming that there is a tight correspondence between how people think and act. What kind of a connection we're dealing with is another matter.

Well for me personally the idea of humans in general is that I learned not to trust them. "Them" here is a generalization because I do trust specific individuals to various extends because they have proven themselves to be trustworthy.

I used to be extremely trusting and I used to believe that humans in general were predominantly predisposed to be good, honest social beings in their interactions with people who do indeed act the way they say they think and feel. This proved to be extremely naive and rarely, if ever, true. Even, and perhaps especially, with people you are supposed to be able to trust explicitly.

I still make the mistake of being predisposed to being to trusting towards others. Everytime I do however is and becomes a grim reminder of why I shouldn't trust anybody.

This resulted in a low opinion about human nature, a lack of trust in humans as a general principle and the preference of not being around them very much. I do crave honest and trustworthy safe contact...but I rarely find it. So I prefer to be alone. Which in turn leads to being lonely. Which will result in being to trusting because I really want that to be true....which will lead to further disappointment.

So I stopped caring about people in general....and only care for people who affect me in some way. When I do...I care deeply. It also resulted in a lack of moral judgement. I do have moral principles. But I rarely judge people...even when they hurt me...and try to fit this into the category "human nature".