what am i even doing

[consuming negativity]

long story incredibly short, i have a small assortment of women's clothing. or, in the paraphrased words of eddie izzard, "they're not women's clothes, they're my fucking clothes, i paid for them". :laugh: you're probably thinking "is communer about to reveal that he is trans?" and the answer to that question is "no". i don't really think of myself completely as a woman or as a man, although i have had my struggles with gender identity in the past. but my body is definitely - in the words of a woman who probably wouldn't remember telling me this - not at all that of a woman. and so the majority of my clothing is gender-conforming. it's not like i don't like my clothing though; i'm a solid 6 on my good days and my clothes help that along. but i don't ever get to wear any of my non-gender-conforming clothing outside of the privacy of my home.

i tend to see my feminine side (carl jung called it "anima"), like my good side, my bad side, my masculine side, and the rest of my sides, as a part of my whole personality and who i am. but i feel like this part of myself - and the expression of it - has to be hidden to everyone. i don't feel comfortable enduring abuse from my family members or friends, let alone strangers in the middle of whiteconserville, murica. but i think i look genuinely good, and i feel more whole as a person, when i mix and match from my "male" and "female" wardrobes to create something "me". it makes me feel good and complete. and so i feel like i'm cheating myself out of my own existence and happiness by not doing what i want to do. when emma goldman says shit like "the essence of individuality is expression", i very strongly agree with her. this whole situation is like being in an abusive relationship with the entirety of the world, where they'll only accept me if i dress and act the way they want me to, and will attempt to harm me either overtly or covertly if i don't.

but to drag both of us - reader and writer - back to sanity, all of this is at its most basic level over a fucking pair of pants. (a different version of this post had me explain how my favorite article of clothing i have is a pair of flares a friend gave me and how this post was the product of me looking great in them) but i am literally scared to wear a pair of pants. not even trying to go for something superbly feminine. this shit sounds pathological but i'm not sure if it's me being paranoid or if it is everyone else who is crazy. i mean, i actually did wear them before when i had neglected to do laundry, and both times i did i got very bad reactions from family members, so i don't think it's just me. but like, how do i even give a shit in the first place? about what they think or any of this. i'm not even sure if i want to even be a part of society if i can't be who i am, but what if this "bravery" of mine gets me homeless again, but this time out in the winter rather than summer? i could lose everything i've been working toward over fucking clothing. is it really worth it? does expression even change when other people see what you're trying to express? or am i just making excuses? or making excuses by making excuses? or i don't even know. this just seems like a very mild thing that shouldn't even be a problem.

[Sentinel]

Firstly for context, I'm a 34-year old gay man living in Sweden, which is seen as progressive in these issues.

I regularly wear 'womens' clothes myself, usually shirts or pants designed for women - as in not dresses or skirts, shoes etc. But yeah, definitely 'womens clothes', and hardly a day goes by that I don't. I also wear makeup daily, sometimes more subtle (at work etc) and sometimes quite 'overt' (well at parties, going out etc).

Perhaps one could say I identify as a man, but not strictly, there is a fluidness towards a feminine side in my personality which is quite strong. I totally agree and recognise myself with what you describe, the feeling of completeness coming from mixing both male and female stuff and styles without identifying as trans, or having an urge to transition.

I think it comes from the fact that people like you and I are comfortable and feel at home precisely with the mixing. Perhaps genderqueer is the term, I don't know or really care, for me it all usually have seemed to be covered when people realise I am gay, as in no more questions are usually asked or eyebrows raised.

I would not have dared to dress as I do when younger, but when it comes to why I do now precisely, I'm not quite sure how much it is due to changing attitudes, the specific climate in Sweden, and my own aging and development respectively.

Sure, it is important to remember that attitudes largely change from people being exposed to new things. Therefore dressing the way I do is def a part of the wider struggle for equality, as I see it and important politically besides making me feel comfortable.

But I wouldn't do it if it cause too much trouble to be worth it. We are only humans. If you encounter too much resistance at the moment, so it risks your entire life situation, then maybe tone it down temporarily for tactical reasons?

While try and think that you will be rid of those people and that environment eventually, and then you will get to dress both comfortably and challengingly to compensate for all the lost time as well. I would not feel bad for doing that, but you are the best judge of your situation.

Good luck!

[Lily Briscoe]

this whole situation is like being in an abusive relationship with the entirety of the world, where they'll only accept me if i dress and act the way they want me to, and will attempt to harm me either overtly or covertly if i don't.I don't really get this. 'Androgynous' clothing is pretty fashionable at the moment, probably even moreso for men than for women. When I go to the thrift store for example, there are always men picking through the women's aisle, and I know a lot of men who mix male and female clothing, none of whom are - as far as I have seen - "abused by the world" as a result of it, or who see it as having anything to do with 'gender identity' in the first place, for that matter.

Is it possible you're overestimating the probability/severity of potential negative reactions? If people give you shit, you can politely point out that they're nerds who have no fashion sense, or just shrug it off. What's the big deal.

[Rosa Partizan]

What do you mean by feminine pants? Are they tight? That's kinda fashionable for guys now anyway. Or are they pink with glitter on them?

[Sentinel]

What is fashionable in the big metropolitan city may not be so in "whiteconserville, murica", and I have also gotten shitty comments simply for wearing 'too' tight pants during the years, in Sweden, Finland, Britain (London actually) and a few other places.

Not that I don't wear clothes that are 'too' colourful such as pink, purple etc as well (maybe more shirts than pants perhaps but yeah).

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I wonder if you might feel more comfortable with a smaller less noticeable piece of clothing and slowly build up to more major items as it becomes, well more comfortable wearing those things in public.

I would agree that mixing and matching male and female fashion might be pretty shocking for some parts of the population here. I once saw a man in an airport in North Carolina wearing short shorts and high heels. As he walked by my gate the entire airport practically shutdown as all the yokels stared with slack jawed disbelief at him, passengers, staff, TSA, everyone. I felt very bad for him it must be very frightening to have so many hostile eyes on you at one time.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I live in a small, very white and conservative town in America, and it is in style for males to wear "slim jeans" as they call them (don't call them skinny jeans, or they will get mad)

But yea, what exactly is feminine about these pants? I'm a woman and I just wear normal jeans, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart from mens jeans.

[consuming negativity]

I don't really get this. 'Androgynous' clothing is pretty fashionable at the moment, probably even moreso for men than for women. When I go to the thrift store for example, there are always men picking through the women's aisle, and I know a lot of men who mix male and female clothing, none of whom are - as far as I have seen - "abused by the world" as a result of it, or who see it as having anything to do with 'gender identity' in the first place, for that matter.

Is it possible you're overestimating the probability/severity of potential negative reactions? If people give you shit, you can politely point out that they're nerds who have no fashion sense, or just shrug it off. What's the big deal.

It is possible that I am overestimating - and I, in truth, am not really sure of much of anything - so in general you can assume I leave open the possibility that I've missed something if I'm making a thread looking for advice from an internet forum.

But, on this subject, I don't think I've missed much. I see a confederate flag nearly every time I go outside anywhere, this town is over 90% white, and, well, they don't call it Pennsyltucky for nothing (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsyltucky).

You might also want to read my response to Ethics Gradient.


What do you mean by feminine pants? Are they tight? That's kinda fashionable for guys now anyway. Or are they pink with glitter on them?

By "women's pants", I mean that if you were to go into a store, in order to buy them, you'd have to go to the women's section. You've seen the sort of pants that are "men's pants", right? They're... a lot different. The shape is pretty different, the sort of material varies a lot more, the designs are much more overtly feminine, and the colors that go along with them, yeah, are more feminine. I don't have any pink-with-glitter pairs, but some of the styles in-and-of-themselves are considered not-for-men, let alone if there's a flower or a pretty weave on the back pockets. Actually... that's a great litmus test. Does the pair of pants have pockets that can hold anything larger than a coin? If so, they're made for men.


I wonder if you might feel more comfortable with a smaller less noticeable piece of clothing and slowly build up to more major items as it becomes, well more comfortable wearing those things in public.

I would agree that mixing and matching male and female fashion might be pretty shocking for some parts of the population here. I once saw a man in an airport in North Carolina wearing short shorts and high heels. As he walked by my gate the entire airport practically shutdown as all the yokels stared with slack jawed disbelief at him, passengers, staff, TSA, everyone. I felt very bad for him it must be very frightening to have so many hostile eyes on you at one time.

Actually, while this isn't the same town, in a similar area, part of my gender studies stuff in college was to do a gender-bending exercise wherein myself and another guy in the class wore pink/purple hair bands (the hard ones that go over your head) for a few hours around the mall. We had the female members of the group sort of trail us and write down the reactions of the people. Lots of glares... many of which I noticed, but even more of which I didn't notice, because they were stopping what they were doing and actually taking time to look at us after they had walked by. Several rude comments and obvious physical communication of disapproval (ie. shaking their heads at us). The laughs weren't so bad but even they, in the context, didn't seem friendly, but it was nice that a few people actually made positive comments (dunno how genuine they were, but again, why are so many people commenting?)

Anyway, by the end I was really fucking anxious and both him and I - who initially thought it wouldn't be a huge deal and that we were kind of wimping out on the project - were like "holy shit thank god that thing isn't on me anymore" and laughing about how awful we felt. It was like taking a xanax and having your panic disappear instantly. Which isn't the first time I've done something like that either by myself or with friends... it's just the time that we did it for hours and documented people as part of a project. Over a hair band. It seems crazy, sort of like how it's hard for me to believe that people actually believe religion, but then you go and you meet these people and they genuinely seem to fucking hate you. I would have been absolutely terrified if had I been alone doing that.


I live in a small, very white and conservative town in America, and it is in style for males to wear "slim jeans" as they call them (don't call them skinny jeans, or they will get mad)

But yea, what exactly is feminine about these pants? I'm a woman and I just wear normal jeans, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart from mens jeans.

It depends on the pair. I have one pair that is virtually indistinguishable from men's jeans, but they're also incredibly ugly. And then I have some articles of clothing which are very obvious are not gendered for men... such as basically any of the tight shirts, or a pair of pants with the designs that are more "girly" (not that I have anything like ridiculously/cheesy with over-gendering). It's sort of hard to explain. Like, ultimately, there's no real reason why they are "men's" or "women's" other than the gendering which I would say includes differences in the style for body types (ie. much larger crotch for men).

[consuming negativity]

Firstly for context, I'm a 34-year old gay man living in Sweden, which is seen as progressive in these issues.

I regularly wear 'womens' clothes myself, usually shirts or pants designed for women - as in not dresses or skirts, shoes etc. But yeah, definitely 'womens clothes', and hardly a day goes by that I don't. I also wear makeup daily, sometimes more subtle (at work etc) and sometimes quite 'overt' (well at parties, going out etc).

Perhaps one could say I identify as a man, but not strictly, there is a fluidness towards a feminine side in my personality which is quite strong. I totally agree and recognise myself with what you describe, the feeling of completeness coming from mixing both male and female stuff and styles without identifying as trans, or having an urge to transition.

I think it comes from the fact that people like you and I are comfortable and feel at home precisely with the mixing. Perhaps genderqueer is the term, I don't know or really care, for me it all usually have seemed to be covered when people realise I am gay, as in no more questions are usually asked or eyebrows raised.

I would not have dared to dress as I do when younger, but when it comes to why I do now precisely, I'm not quite sure how much it is due to changing attitudes, the specific climate in Sweden, and my own aging and development respectively.

Sure, it is important to remember that attitudes largely change from people being exposed to new things. Therefore dressing the way I do is def a part of the wider struggle for equality, as I see it and important politically besides making me feel comfortable.

But I wouldn't do it if it cause too much trouble to be worth it. We are only humans. If you encounter too much resistance at the moment, so it risks your entire life situation, then maybe tone it down temporarily for tactical reasons?

While try and think that you will be rid of those people and that environment eventually, and then you will get to dress both comfortably and challengingly to compensate for all the lost time as well. I would not feel bad for doing that, but you are the best judge of your situation.

Good luck!

It's really nice to know that I'm not just crazy and that there is actually another human being on earth who understands how I feel about the same situation. You really fucking "get it". I've actually been sort of avoiding this thread because talking about the subject makes me a little anxious (I almost deleted the OP until I came back and people had thanked it and I couldn't), and I'm still not sure what I'm going to do. I think I might take Ethics Gradient's suggestion of sort of easing into it, which helps 'cause I've got some of those skinny-jeans-but-marketed-for-males-so-it's-'okay' that RtR was talking about. But it's just.. I mean, it's very helpful and I like the style, don't get me wrong, but it's not the same. They're obviously gendered in a way that doesn't reflect what I want to reflect when I would wear my other clothing.

But hopefully things turn out well in the future and I'm able to change my environment and my life around. I'm pretty stressed out lately with a lot of things and it just destroys my vision and my patience and my fortitude. To pretend to be someone I'm not all the time around basically everyone I know, to not even be able to dress the way I want to in public, to work shit jobs for virtually no pay... all of it out of fear of the consequences of not doing it. Drives me nuts and makes me want to save up some cash for a few months and just hit the road toward the biggest city I can be bothered to drive to. I guess the best thing I can do is just be as much of me as I can stand while being as little of me as I can stand. I don't know where that point is, but I'm getting sick of the status quo.

Anyway, I just wanted to address you directly (even if half of this isn't even a response to you), so thanks again for the help and the good luck.

[Sentinel]

Thanks for your reply, it was touching. I am sure you will find out the best way of action, dependant of situation, and that things will improve for you.

Did you know by the way, that Gaius Julius Caesar was ridiculed by some of his opponents for wearing the long-sleeved tunics meant to be worn by women? Nevertheless he was that guy, who supported by the masses of the poor and the army was declared eternal dictator of the Roman republic, in the end.. ;)

[Quail]

Actually... that's a great litmus test. Does the pair of pants have pockets that can hold anything larger than a coin? If so, they're made for men.

I know right, what the hell is that about? As if women don't need to put things in their pockets.

On a more serious note though, I think there is quite a big difference between how acceptable it is for women to wear clothing from the men's section than vice-versa. I wear a lot of clothing from the men's section and I haven't noticed any particularly bad treatment because of it, other than hassle from my family because they think I'm "not making the best of myself" (whatever that's supposed to mean). I do live in a pretty progressive city though.

The point is though, a woman wearing men's clothing and acting masculine means she's moving above her place in society. A man wearing women's clothing is giving up his status to be feminine, so is more "worthy" of ridicule.

I think that although trousers/jeans shouldn't be gendered, they are pretty unnecessarily gendered in general. Even if it is just (as someone mentioned above) a little flower on the back pocket or something, finding gender-neutral clothing is actually pretty hard (finding gender neutral anything is pretty damn hard tbh). I'm actually planning on going shopping for jeans (comfortable, sensible pockets, make me look good) as soon as I've made a phone call and written this post, so I'll let you guys know how that goes and how gendered the various options are.

[Quail]

^ Ignore above poster. They're banned now.

So, the results of my entirely scientific investigation are in:

Jeans in the menswear are limited to fewer colours - grey, brown, black, blue, maroon if you're lucky. They have better pockets and are inexplicably cheaper.

Jeans in the womenswear section come in a wider variety of colours, patterns and styles. Many fall under the category of "would be nice if it wasn't for that decorative thing" while others are made of weirdly impractical materials. I don't understand jeggings.

Anyway... I guess it's easy to have the immediate reaction, "But jeans are jeans!" But actually jeans are categorised into jeans for men and jeans for women. It seems so ridiculous that the gender we're perceived as limits the shapes of cloth we can wear, but that's patriarchy for you.

I also think it might seem like a small thing for a guy to wear women's clothing, but actually isn't every guy wearing a headband or women's jeans a small victory against the idea that being feminine is something to be ashamed of and/or ridiculed? I think small victories are worthwhile on the road to bigger ones.

[PhoenixAsh]

I have green, yellow, pink, (all in pastel) reddish brown jeans, tan, something that resembles purple...well..I say "have"..but I could have...because I know where to buy them. And they are categories as man jeans....

[PhoenixAsh]

I want one with an embroided dragon or unicorn though....like an embroided tattoo but I would probably never wear it or if I did pretend it was like a joke or something or a dare....

[Halert]

I know right, what the hell is that about? As if women don't need to put things in their pockets.


Because they expect woman to carry a handbag and putting a lot of stuff in your pocket makes a woman look "bigger". it's fucking stupid :mad:.

A female friend of mine also loves to wear men clothes now and then, because they are more convenient. Her father doesn't like it when she does, but she still wears them.

For a cosplay i once wanted foundation and eyeliner. I went in to a store and asked a lady for advice, i told her it was for myself and needed some advice. she was happy to help me, it was a funn experience. :grin:

[Thirsty Crow]

Long story short, it seems to me that a cost-benefit "analysis" might be best for you. In the sense of trying to weigh the perceived negative effects against the positive. Of course, this is tricky since you can't be sure of your idea of negative effects (whereas positive, in short your happiness and contentment, are clear) so it just might be best to come up with relatively safe ways of testing it out. You already did with your family, so...I dunno.

I can't say how this can be done as I'm not in your skin. I can, though, wish you all the luck you could possibly have.

[Thirsty Crow]

Yeah, I could add - I don't see how you're "making excuses". I think it's reasonable and healthy to pay attention to how people will treat you. If a particular reaction will negatively affect you, of course you should be paying attention to that. But, and here I'm going off my own personal experience (of a completely different kind, though), it's also reasonable not to beat yourself over the head with questions like "why must I be so sensitive so that X hurts me". Especially if you're prone to ideas that you ought be tough and all composed (not in a gendered, masculinist sense of "tough").

[Lanfear]

I understand what the OP is talking about in a way. Im male but I like to wear clothes that are for women, though my tastes go beyiond jeans. Only on halloween have I ever gone out dressed, and on one drunken occasion and even then I was mortified. I would love to have the courage to even waer a pair of "women's jeans" out but being 6'1 and 16 stone I would definitely be ridiculed and could not bear that. So, all the best to the OP and I hope it all works out for you