Retail Trade unions

[DAN E BOY]

I'm not all that swotted up on politics, but believe most of the members here are in favour of trade unions. That's fine. But here's my complaint.

I've worked in retail for a few years now. Just a shop clerk, not management, and used to be a member of a trade union. But withdrew membership for several reasons:

First, i'm broke.

Second, and more compelling, is I was informed of a very disturbing fact. My Ex-Trade union (USDAW), have signed a anti-strike agreement with their members employer. IMO, this can only be seen as surrendering to the employer. If a union (legally) forgoes it's right to withdraw it's members labour (ie strike) how can they pose as a legitimate union and demand fee's,and claim they are fighting the cause for the working class?

Some unions are active and productive, others are fake! and they have a lot of members under their membership believing they are sincere. . .like I used to believe.

And in case you're wondering a union officer from unite gave me the bad news on how USDAW runs, whilst we worked together.

What should be done about this?

[Creative Destruction]

For the most part, the unions in the United States are not working class organs and are often in competition with each other. They're class collaborationist and, for all intents and purposes, company unions. The main exception is the Longshoremans' Union, who are rather radical. But, by and large, if it's an AFL-CIO or CTW affiliate, they're not of much use and are pretty conservative. Unless there is a radical remaking of the trade unions in the US, I don't think they can be counted on to be a good independent power for the working class.

[The Feral Underclass]

Trade unions exist to mediate the conditions of capitalism. They are there to negotiate the terms of our exploitation. They can never truly "fight the cause of the working class," since that would be the negation of the conditions of capitalism and trade unions can only exist if capitalism does.

Also, Unite is no better and that person probably said that to encourage you to become a member. Also, trade unions are some of the worst employers. I had a friend who worked for the GMB and they constantly fucked him over.

Modern trade unions are basically a business and routinely sell out their workers to the benefit of their bosses. The only thing to be done is to actively oppose trade unions and build independent organisations of working class power.

[DAN E BOY]

I know nothing about unions in the US.

But you say the unions are not for the working class in the US, well I only get a few pence above minimum wage. And so do my colleagues who USDAW represent. I would of thought we fall into the working class bracket.

[Creative Destruction]

I know nothing about unions in the US.

But you say the unions are not for the working class in the US, well I only get a few pence above minimum wage. And so do my colleagues who USDAW represent. I would of thought we fall into the working class bracket.

Sure, but that's not what I mean. TFU basically called it.

[The Intransigent Faction]

Trade unions exist to mediate the conditions of capitalism. They are there to negotiate the terms of our exploitation. They can never truly "fight the cause of the working class," since that would be the negation of the conditions of capitalism and trade unions can only exist if capitalism does.

Also, Unite is no better and that person probably said that to encourage you to become a member. Also, trade unions are some of the worst employers. I had a friend who worked for the GMB and they constantly fucked him over.

Modern trade unions are basically a business and routinely sell out their workers to the benefit of their bosses. The only thing to be done is to actively oppose trade unions and build independent organisations of working class power.

This pretty well covers it. Even from a more 'generous' perspective, of course, unions in the retail sector just are not in a position of strength given the prevalence of part-time or temp workers.

[VivalaCuarta]

These are definitely opinions. Furthermore, they are subjective, ill-informed, and generally useless and stupid opinions. They are the products of self-centered petty bourgeois know it alls who confuse their belly aches for historical facts.

[BIXX]

These are definitely opinions. Furthermore, they are subjective, ill-informed, and generally useless and stupid opinions. They are the products of self-centered petty bourgeois know it alls who confuse their belly aches for historical facts.
I don't really know who this was directed at but if you can't see that unions consistently sell out the workers they supposedly protect then get the fuck out of your dream world.

[The Feral Underclass]

These are definitely opinions. Furthermore, they are subjective, ill-informed, and generally useless and stupid opinions. They are the products of self-centered petty bourgeois know it alls who confuse their belly aches for historical facts.

If trade unions do not mediate the conditions of capitalism and negotiate the terms of our exploitation, what do they do? If trade unions are not businesses can you explain why they have things like credit cards?

[Bala Perdida]

These are definitely opinions. Furthermore, they are subjective, ill-informed, and generally useless and stupid opinions. They are the products of self-centered petty bourgeois know it alls who confuse their belly aches for historical facts.
'Look at these starving peasants not appreciating their right to beg!' Seriously, wtf. Have you ever worked a union job? I almost took one and the dues and fee where basically gonna make it so that I would be paid less than minimum wage. Also striking was not allowed and workers got laid off and replaced all the time. I'm not sure what the point of the union was. I guess the benefits where good, but it took a year for them to activate and most workers there where seasonal so they didn't get any. Also many people don't stay there for a year. Sugar-coating I guess. I'm glad I didn't take that job. I hear nothing but bad things about it.

[DAN E BOY]

This pretty well covers it. Even from a more 'generous' perspective, of course, unions in the retail sector just are not in a position of strength given the prevalence of part-time or temp workers.


Your's was the kind of point i was making, but we've gone off in the wrong direction.

IMO, a union will be powerless and be dictated to by the companies negotiating representatives if they (the union) have no right to strike. And more and more unions are signing up to these anti-strike deals.

Lets be honest about this, holding a strike,or having the ability is the only means of affectively protecting and improving workers rights,pay etc.

Going to the table and ''negotiating'' the workers cut of the pie is one thing, but when the deal is top heavy in favour of the employer and the employer refuses to budge on unfair working conditions, action needs to be taken.


You won't accomplish much with talk when faced with a company or government, hell bent on squeezing every penny out of the staff on their payroll,and cutting back ''benefits''. So you walk out to demonstrate your (collective) importance as the worker.

Which begs the question: why have the leaders of the unions signed up to these anti-strike regulations, knowing how weak it will it make their power of negotiating. And why do patries on the left, who are supposed to be battling for the working class (like me) support the unions, given their defeatist position?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

It really depends on your branch and what sector of retail you work in. I've been a member of USDAW when I worked in Primark and there was that similar no strike agreement. Their only purpose, essentially, was to peddle me shitty insurance and to occasionally intervene in cases of harassment and such things. However if you worked for Tesco, they got all Tesco workers a pay rise I think up to £7.50ish and led the warehouse workers on strike at one point. Overall they're pretty useless though.

Part of the reason they follow to these no strike agreements is because hardly any workers in retail actually belong to the union. In most high-street shops, I doubt they have a membership of even 10% largely due to the fluid employment in retail and the relative age (most young people don't have a clue about the potential for trade unions to improve their working conditions, in my experience). If the workers went on strike, the shops would still be able to function so the use of striking as a tactic becomes ineffective.

The strike wave in the US involving Walmart and fast food workers has been interesting to follow and they've largely been successful, in my opinion, because they've been basically working from scratch to form their unions as opposed to being held back by the baggage of these shitty unions like USDAW.

[DAN E BOY]

It really depends on your branch and what sector of retail you work in. I've been a member of USDAW when I worked in Primark and there was that similar no strike agreement. Their only purpose, essentially, was to peddle me shitty insurance and to occasionally intervene in cases of harassment and such things. However if you worked for Tesco, they got all Tesco workers a pay rise I think up to £7.50ish and led the warehouse workers on strike at one point.

Overall they're pretty useless though.

Part of the reason they follow to these no strike agreements is because hardly any workers in retail actually belong to the union. In most high-street shops, I doubt they have a membership of even 10% largely due to the fluid employment in retail and the relative age (most young people don't have a clue about the potential for trade unions to improve their working conditions, in my experience). If the workers went on strike, the shops would still be able to function so the use of striking as a tactic becomes ineffective.

The strike wave in the US involving Walmart and fast food workers has been interesting to follow and they've largely been successful, in my opinion, because they've been basically working from scratch to form their unions as opposed to being held back by the baggage of these shitty unions like USDAW.

Really?I work at tesco and i've never heard of them striking to gain a pay rise. At least the few years i've been there. :confused:

As for this pay rise they do it every year. It has nothing to do with union negotiations, it's a voluntary pay rise, made by TESCO. They just like the ''prestige'' of being the best paying retail employer in the UK: ''We pay the highest to our staff''. Yeah, a whole ten pence more than aldi. :rolleyes:

I wish we would strike though, start distributing some of this company profit more evenly. :)

[TheTrueAtheist]

The strike wave in the US involving Walmart and fast food workers has been interesting to follow and they've largely been successful, in my opinion, because they've been basically working from scratch to form their unions as opposed to being held back by the baggage of these shitty unions like USDAW.



It was not successful they didn't even get Walmart employees or fast food workers to join the protests the unions paid people under minimum wage to go out protesting things they had no idea what were about. These unions make billions of dollars through exploiting the working class and fund politicians to create more laws forcing people to pay more union dues.

There are instances where people are self employed but are forced to join labor unions because of state/city regulations then they have to pay union dues to rich union bosses who contribute nothing to society but collect wages.

Unions are not always your friend when the state is forcing you to join a union the union has no incentives to care about the conditions of the working class you are forced to pay dues and cannot leave the union.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Really?I work at tesco and i've never heard of them striking to gain a pay rise. At least the few years i've been there. :confused:
Ha, I checked this out and it's so typical. Distribution drivers at Tesco went on strike but they're with Unite not USDAW.


As for this pay rise they do it every year. It has nothing to do with union negotiations, it's a voluntary pay rise, made by TESCO. They just like the ''prestige'' of being the best paying retail employer in the UK: ''We pay the highest to our staff''. Yeah, a whole ten pence more than aldi. :rolleyes:

I wish we would strike though, start distributing some of this company profit more evenly. :)
I swear that the pay deal with Tesco was something to do with USDAW negotiating but I wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong. I have a friend who also works in Tesco and is an USDAW member and maybe he was just bullshitting me or exaggerating. And yeah when you work at a place like Tesco or Primark where I used to work (I now have the 'privilege' to work at River Island) it's so obvious the sheer level of disparity between the money they're raking in and the money that they pay the workers.

[Troublesome Gnat]

The whole history of the TU's in the UK is one of arbitration/negotiation sometimes using more militant methods, strikes while others cosying up to the employers while looking for lucrative positions within the capitalist state. This was the important lesson learnt by the emloyers during the 1870's where they saw the important role of keeping militant action by workers under control.

Not to recognise the reactionary role they play within the working class only leads one into forms of lets reclaim the unions for the members or at worse relying on people such as Serwotka. These people will never lead any serious challenge to the capitalist state and workers have to somehow see that the only way forward is to build independent political organisation based on Marxist theory and practice.

[Connolly1916]

Kind of in the same boat myself. Trade unions in Ireland are essentially under control of the ruling class (as they probably are in every capitalist state). I've been debating whether or not to join a union lately. A slight stumbling block is that I don't even know if many (or any!) of my colleagues are in a union. Out of interest, what are people thoughts on 'radical' unions? Here we have the Independent Workers' Union (www dot union dot ie/), who are not part of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

[Dean]

I'm not all that swotted up on politics, but believe most of the members here are in favour of trade unions. That's fine. But here's my complaint.

I've worked in retail for a few years now. Just a shop clerk, not management, and used to be a member of a trade union. But withdrew membership for several reasons:

First, i'm broke.

Second, and more compelling, is I was informed of a very disturbing fact. My Ex-Trade union (USDAW), have signed a anti-strike agreement with their members employer. IMO, this can only be seen as surrendering to the employer. If a union (legally) forgoes it's right to withdraw it's members labour (ie strike) how can they pose as a legitimate union and demand fee's,and claim they are fighting the cause for the working class?

Some unions are active and productive, others are fake! and they have a lot of members under their membership believing they are sincere. . .like I used to believe.

And in case you're wondering a union officer from unite gave me the bad news on how USDAW runs, whilst we worked together.

What should be done about this?

I recommend you rejoin the union. Contracts are negotiated with these clauses, and their inclusion constitutes a primary piece of leverage.

I don't know what its like in the UK but in many US states, non-union workers get the same benefits as union workers in the same facility/workforce. This results in the union getting less dues to function than it needs, and a potentially greater burden on paying members or reduced union functionality.