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RevolucioN NoW
7th February 2004, 03:48
The dubious legacy of 20th century communism and its guiding light “democratic” centralism are leading a new generation of activists to question how the major Leninist parties operate, to possibly even consider alternatives to this dark hellhole of bureaucratic rule and petty careerism.

But what are the alternatives to this “self evident” truth, surely we cannot believe that the proletariat is able to make decisions without the oversight of a hard core Leninist party? Well, it can and I have been considering ways to avoid the cesspool of democratic centralism, one of the most interesting appears to be the ideas of Athenian democracy, a short period of the classical Greek period.

While it was by no means perfect, Athenian democracy allowed for ordinary people to become involved in the process of government. At the lowest level, all male citizens could attend the Ecclesia, a large gathering of citizens which met at least 40 times a year and made many important decisions including those relating to the budget and laws.

The next highest assembly was the council of 500, with all its members selected by lot (drawn from a hat) from the lower ecclesia assembly. This assembly allowed for members to only serve once in their lives and was rotated frequently (once every year).

The Prytanes the highest assembly in the land, its membership was drawn from the council of 500 at random, and one member was selected as president for a period of 24 hours. One could only serve once as president.

The court system was also rather democratic with a popular law court composed of 6000 random people having authority to rule on all cases other than murder. Cases of murder were left to a council of nobles known as the Areopagus.

Basic tenants of this system such as drawing representatives at random from lower bodies and laws stopping people serving multiple terms could be beneficial to leftists in the 21st century. This method creates an essence of decentralization without doing away with the horizontal method of organization. As representatives are cycled out every year, the threat of entrenched people in power is non-existent.

There were of course many flaws to this system, namely the fact that it was really only radical politically, not economically thus leaving nobles with control over much of the land. The fact that women were not allowed to become representatives was a severely crippling factor.

What are comrade’s opinions on this method of organization?

ComradeRed
7th February 2004, 21:20
It seems interesting, yet is seems far too big. I think it is better than a republic.

RevolucioN NoW
8th February 2004, 03:33
It seems interesting, yet is seems far too big. I think it is better than a republic.

Im not sure what you mean by "far too big", Remember this sort of government was only ruling over the athenian city state, a rather tiny area.

Indeed it does maintain a strong hierarchy, however instead of having lifelong careerists out of touch with reality it allows for ordinary people to occupy "top jobs"

ComradeRed
8th February 2004, 04:41
Well, in retrospect it seems to work best in small areas with large population. Of course it would have to be made proportional from city to city, yet a hamlet would screw things up.

RevolucioN NoW
8th February 2004, 04:55
indeed, one of the major flaws of this system was that people from the countryside could not come to vote regularly.

It would work better if every city and area had its own system, so that everyone would be able to participate equally

Solace
8th February 2004, 18:04
In the inside, the direct democracy worked extremely well. Athenians avoided extremes in politics. The main difference between Athenian democracy and what we have now is that the notion of common good was very important to the Greeks.

I like the idea that they avoided long campaigns and expensive elections. The people really spoke up. Workers were often excused so they be able to go the Agora. Most citizens were active in the political live, and they were asked to. I also find the idea of ostracism very good.

But, the Athenian democracy was able to survive this long only with the exterior imperialism. Athens dominated the Delian League, the other states were under its control in one way or the other. What started as a defensive alliance ended as imperialism. Even when the Persian menace was over (thus the Alliance becomes useless), Athens maintained it, against the will of the other states.

Don't Change Your Name
8th February 2004, 18:48
Originally posted by RevolucioN [email protected] 8 2004, 05:55 AM
indeed, one of the major flaws of this system was that people from the countryside could not come to vote regularly.
then we will have to divide the power in more federations.


It would work better if every city and area had its own system, so that everyone would be able to participate equally

That's right.

I'm a believer on direct democracy. The representative pseudo-democracy is crap and a farse.

ComradeRed
9th February 2004, 03:54
but, what about what socrates said? If a charismatic fool convinces every fool to vote for a foolish idea(and we all know that there are more fools than those who aren't), that would mean it has the majority, so would it make it right? No, of course not, especially a capitalist proposal.

Saint-Just
9th February 2004, 13:20
But how would Athenian democracy keep party discipline? If it cannot do this then it cannot replace democratic centralism.

crazy comie
9th February 2004, 15:24
Also only the ruling class of athens could join in the athenian parliment. .

RevolucioN NoW
10th February 2004, 21:57
but, what about what socrates said? If a charismatic fool convinces every fool to vote for a foolish idea(and we all know that there are more fools than those who aren't), that would mean it has the majority, so would it make it right? No, of course not, especially a capitalist proposal.

Indeed the system has its flaws, and you hit the major one. but i hope that these "charismatic fools" will be rotated out before they can do any serious damage


But how would Athenian democracy keep party discipline? If it cannot do this then it cannot replace democratic centralism.

Party discipline? what a dictatorial notion, i believe that people should be able ot decide what they want as a collective, not have to conform to what the party leadership prophesises.

crazy comie
11th February 2004, 15:00
It would have to conform to the party becuse pepole shouldn't be using contradictory policies and pepole need to be collectively organised..

Saint-Just
11th February 2004, 16:56
Originally posted by RevolucioN [email protected] 10 2004, 10:57 PM
Party discipline? what a dictatorial notion, i believe that people should be able ot decide what they want as a collective, not have to conform to what the party leadership prophesises.
The reason for party discipline is for members to conform to what the majority of members decide. The problem in your idea of democracy is that they might decide something as a collective however factions will be created and the party policies will be less effective. Party discipline exists in all party systems to differing degrees. Remove party discipline entirely and the notion of a political party disappears too. Are you suggesting a relatively low degree of party discipline?

RevolucioN NoW
12th February 2004, 03:29
The reason for party discipline is for members to conform to what the majority of members decide. The problem in your idea of democracy is that they might decide something as a collective however factions will be created and the party policies will be less effective. Party discipline exists in all party systems to differing degrees. Remove party discipline entirely and the notion of a political party disappears too. Are you suggesting a relatively low degree of party discipline?

I was unsure of what you meant by "party discipline", i believe that there would be some "party discipline", such as ensuring that all decisions would be made by the collective and that all members would conform more or less to decisions made by the party through direct democracy.

After the revolution there would be no real need for "party discipline" as the party will disolve itself relatively quickly (either voluntarily or by force) and leave power in the hands of the workers and their organisations.


Are you suggesting a relatively low degree of party discipline?

Are you suggecting that we would somehow force people to "obey us or die"

crazy comie
12th February 2004, 15:14
There would be need for party discipline after a revoulotion as there would still be som remenents of the bourgeosie who it would be neaccecery to supress wich may need wide co-ordination.