Materialism and Suicide

[Redistribute the Rep]

A lot of philosophers, notably Schopenhauer, Sartre, and Camus, have pondered the implications of suicide. But how does the materialist philosophy characterize suicide?

[Creative Destruction]

well, it pissed a lot of principled materialists when Lafargue and Jenny Marx did it, so, that could be something.

[socialistlawyer]

Materialism got nothing to do with suicide. "Mental illness will kill you"- my psychiatrist. So it means that no matter what ideology you subscribe to, you are a candidate if you are mentally ill. A lot of Right wing bourgeoisie Canadian soldiers commit suicide which is related to their PTSDs. A Conservative co-worker of mine attempts to commit suicide once every three years.

[Rafiq]

There are no real rational predispositions to suicide itself - I.e. suicide occurs based on the circumstances of the living. Suicide occurs as desperation for better, different circumstances of life, even if this is perceived as nothingness. All are regretful after the deed is done (or they would be).

[socialistlawyer]

Ya, this Conservative co-worker of mine committed suicide because she was not expecting herself to be fired from the workplace.

[Creative Destruction]

There are no real rational predispositions to suicide itself - I.e. suicide occurs based on the circumstances of the living. Suicide occurs as desperation for better, different circumstances of life, even if this is perceived as nothingness. All are regretful after the deed is done (or they would be).

I don't think this is true. It's specious to speculate on a dead person's feelings after they've died, but it's hard to believe that, for example, someone going through a particularly painful experience with terminal cancer would have been regretful for killing themselves.

[Redistribute the Rep]

I think he meant that everybody regrets making the decision (at least while they still can) because they don't actually want to die but really they just want better living circumstances than what they have. But since different living circumstances is often not an option, they must choose death instead, but feel bad for not getting to live the life they wanted.

[BIXX]

There are no real rational predispositions to suicide itself - I.e. suicide occurs based on the circumstances of the living. Suicide occurs as desperation for better, different circumstances of life, even if this is perceived as nothingness. All are regretful after the deed is done (or they would be).
Once again rafiq saying dumb shit.

You're just projecting your moralism onto people who commit suicide. Yeah, some people regret it, but not everyone.

[RedAnarchist]

One of my ancestors killed himself in the 1850s, his second wife (my ancestress died several years before) found him hung one August morning. His death was seen as a "felo de se", a "crime against the self", and he was buried that day with no religious services sometime after 9pm. They didn't understand the mind of a suicidal person in the 1850s (they didn't even understand suicidal persons even in the 1970s, never mind back then).

[Redistribute the Rep]

Once again rafiq saying dumb shit.

You're just projecting your moralism onto people who commit suicide. Yeah, some people regret it, but not everyone.

I found his post helpful and reflective of what I have felt going through suicidal ideation. I think you misunderstood it, for reasons I outlined a little above. But, we can wait for Rafiq to come in and clarify.

[socialistlawyer]

After decades of harassment, provocations and aggravations on Jenny Marx, I would not be surprised if she ends up mentally ill just like US female soldiers raped while in line of duty. Thus, committing suicide. A person can only take a few aggravations. More than that is truly devastating to the mental state. I was constantly bullied in secondary school. That is why I ended up mentally ill. But with no thoughts of suicide. Maybe if I have no roof over my head and do not eat at least 3 times a death. I will consider it.

[Creative Destruction]

On second thought, red noise, I think he meant that everybody regrets making the decision (at least while they still can) because they don't actually want to die but really they just want better living circumstances than what they have. But since different living circumstances is often not an option, they must choose death instead, but feel bad for not getting to live the life they wanted.

That's not particularly meaningful, though. People are faced with decisions like this as a response to their situations, albeit in a not-so-life threatening manner. Regrets are bound to happen, but that doesn't mean every single decision made in a circumstance like that will automatically be regretful. Aside from that, the tone of Rafiq's post was taking on a bit of a moralistic tone, similar to the same crap that I'd hear day-in-day-out talking to shrinks. "You'd regret it if you do kill yourself! It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem!" and on.

Seeing a couple loved ones in various states of medical crises and who decided to ultimately kill themselves, I have no doubt in my mind that they probably would not have regretted committing suicide. Would have they preferred to not have had schizophrenia or cancer? I'm sure they would have, but that wasn't in the bag for them. And with the cards they were dealt, I think that they would not have regretted the decision they made. Regret implies that if you could go back and get a do-over that you would have done something different, and I don't think that is at all the case in those situations.

[Rafiq]

I don't think this is true. It's specious to speculate on a dead person's feelings after they've died, but it's hard to believe that, for example, someone going through a particularly painful experience with terminal cancer would have been regretful for killing themselves.

You're missing the point. The point is that it is impossible for conscious beings to actually desire death for what it is. To alleviate pain is a worldly, living desire. No one is saying death is never a preferable choice. We're talking about it in relation to materialism... To desire death is to desire things unique only to life. When I say "all are regretful" I mean that they never really knew what it would be like.

[Creative Destruction]

When I say "all are regretful" I mean that they never really knew what it would be like.

That is not the same thing as regret, though. Not in the least. Regret is something specific. It isn't not knowing what you're getting yourself into or not comprehending the state of being (or nothingness, in this case) at hand. All that is is uncertainty. But choosing to act in an uncertain situation =/= automatic regret.

[Rafiq]

Once again rafiq saying dumb shit.

You're just projecting your moralism onto people who commit suicide. Yeah, some people regret it, but not everyone.

Christ you're dull. Really. I'm "projecting my moralism" everyone. I really made moral arguments in this thread.

I'm so fucking sick or people deducing the points of my posts based on their false attributions of my identity. As though all of my posts are excuses ceiling some secret defense of the SPUSA, Third-world caesarean socialism, and my opposition towards pedophilia (ergo my moralism). You're simply a moron doxxer. A real fucking dipshit. Arrogant overly confident piece of shit. What else is there to say? You LITERALLY don't know shit!

[Redistribute the Rep]

Well I think it could be said that nobody wants to die "in a vacuum" so to speak, but their desire for suicide arise from their life circumstances. Whether "regret" is the right wording for this is up for debate, but nonetheless I don't think this could be interpreted as moralism.

[Rafiq]

That is not the same thing as regret, though. Not in the least. Regret is something specific. It isn't not knowing what you're getting yourself into or not comprehending the state of being (or nothingness, in this case) at hand. All that is is uncertainty. But choosing to act in an uncertain situation =/= automatic regret.

O.K., we get that. You can't regret something of you are nothing. We all know. That's not the point... I simply say "all are regretful" in that death doesn't fulfill these worldly desires. It might be preferable in many circumstances, but it cannot properly be conceptualized beforehand. Death can be better than life, but only because of life. When Communists gave their lives during the civil war, they died without promise of paradise or fear of damnation. They still died, however, based on deductions of things unique to the living.

This discussion isn't about the moral implications of suicide. It's about death in relation to materialism. Materialism IS NOT a moral framework. it is AMORAL.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Overly romantic boot-swill. Death is nothingness. Nothingness does not exist in relation to life, but the opposite. You, me, the stars, all this will pass into nothingness. But I agree that materialism has nothing to say on this subject due to its amoralism.

[Creative Destruction]

This discussion isn't about the moral implications of suicide. It's about death in relation to materialism. Materialism IS NOT a moral framework. it is AMORAL.

That's fine and I agree. You just need to choose how you describe it more carefully. "Regret" carries specific meaning and connotations -- much of it connected with moralistic baggage. When you're trying to make a precise point, it's good to be precise in your wording, as well, which you weren't.

[consuming negativity]

what did schopenhauer and sartre have to say about suicide? i'm only familiar with camus and not entirely sure what sartre said. schopenhauer came across to me as sort of a fucking dumbass.

[Redistribute the Rep]

Overly romantic boot-swill. Death is nothingness. Nothingness does not exist in relation to life, but the opposite. You, me, the stars, all this will pass into nothingness. But I agree that materialism has nothing to say on this subject due to its amoralism.

Well we're not talking about death but about suicide. While death is nothingness, the act of committing suicide is not nothingness and certainly does exist in relation to life.

[Redistribute the Rep]

what did schopenhauer and sartre have to say about suicide? i'm only familiar with camus and not entirely sure what sartre said. schopenhauer came across to me as sort of a fucking dumbass.

I'm no expert but from what I understand he basically said it was good to kill oneself because that would mean having control of oneself or something along those lines... Sartre said one should not kill oneself as it would deprive them of further defining their essence through their existence

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Well we're not talking about death but about suicide. While death is nothingness, the act of committing suicide is not nothingness and certainly does exist in relation to life.

When Rafiq claims that "Death can be better than life, but only because of life." He's making a statement about death in general, not suicide specifically as that just happens to be the topic at hand. We can look around the universe and see that life is the aberration, nothingness is the norm. Surely we can agree that life exists in relation to nothingness not the other way around.

[Rafiq]

Are you suggesting that your RECOGNITION of life deriving from no life isn't dependent on your consciousness and life? The "universe" doesn't care that life is nothingness. Humans do, and they are wrong to. Its JUST AS bad as giving life cosmic meaning.

[Redistribute the Rep]

When Rafiq claims that "Death can be better than life, but only because of life." He's making a statement about death in general, not suicide specifically as that just happens to be the topic at hand. We can look around the universe and see that life is the aberration, nothingness is the norm. Surely we can agree that life exists in relation to nothingness not the other way around.

Well some peoples circumstances make them view death as a better alternative, resulting in suicide. What death is actually like and whether it's actually better doesn't need to play into this, the way that person percieves death is what's relevant.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Hogsweat! I would never claim that the universe cares or doesn't care, the universe is incapable of either. I have not said that life is nothingness, only that any significance life draws for itself is done in relation to the nothingness that surrounds us. Whether an individual looks around and finds that the nothingness she perceives means her life is empty or full is a subjective assessment that is not relevant. This is a side topic and only arose due to your wording perhaps.

There are undoubtedly situations where death, nothingness, is preferable to life.

[socialistlawyer]

Who are you to say that materialism is 'AMORAL'. Nobody can claim to be a judge of morals. Nobody can truly say he's righteous. Pedophiles among Catholic priests abhor materialism. Pedophilia, yes, is not amoral. Because it is IMMORAL!:laugh:

[Rafiq]

Hogsweat! I would never claim that the universe cares or doesn't care, the universe is incapable of either. I have not said that life is nothingness, only that any significance life draws for itself is done in relation to the nothingness that surrounds us. Whether an individual looks around and finds that the nothingness she perceives means her life is empty or full is a subjective assessment that is not relevant.

I understand the point - I merely ask: From what background, or what underlying universal (or 'worldly') standard is this basing itself on? Any significance life draws for itself is done in relation to the nothingness that surrounds us - how does a conscious being conceptualize nothingness without the corruption of life? We are not predisposed for even approaching nothingness. We are incapable of understanding nothingness and fullness as an axis. We might be equipped with recognizing that consciousness is derived from non-consciousness, as good materialists - but ultimately all this means is that we can only know that we do not know the world around us precisely for what it is.

In this sense, nothingness exists precisely in relation to life as far as we go, or as far as it is relevant to a discussion about suicide. It is impossible to think "cosmically" in this way - nothingness DOES exist in relation to life, because only conscious-life forms, a very small portion of them at that, think in terms of "nothingness". To be less pretentious: Nothingness only exists in our heads.

Objective reality aside, of which I am sure you are aware exists independently of us - as far as suicide goes, or the conscious act of ending your life goes - nothingness does indeed exist in relation to life.

[slum]

what did schopenhauer and sartre have to say about suicide?

not up on my sartre, but schop's short essay on the subject can be found here; it's the last chapter:
http://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/11945/pg11945.html

also he discusses it in the 'ethics' section of world as will and rep. but i'm not interested in slogging thru it atm

[Ravn]

Nothingness only exists in our heads.
Being & nothingness are a unity. Being isn't static. Each instance of being involves things becoming: Something is going out of being, & something is coming into being. All of that is independent of the mind. It's reflected in objective reality.

Suicide can be an informed decision based on an rational assessment of one's material circumstances. (Some people opined that this was the case with Robin Williams, though the media suppressed or downplayed the evidence.)

[keine_zukunft]

jean amery wrote a fantastic book on suicide then promptly killed himself.

[Tim Redd]

Materialism got nothing to do with suicide. "Mental illness will kill you"- my psychiatrist. So it means that no matter what ideology you subscribe to, you are a candidate if you are mentally ill.

Is it mentally ill to kill one's self if you're in the middle stage of Lou Gehrig's (most victims don't live anywhere nearly as long as Steven Hawking) disease, or if you have advanced metastatic cancer?

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

what is the most dialectical way to off oneself? If only Miguel was still here to tell us with 17 pages of bizarrely formatted diagrams.

[BIXX]

what is the most dialectical way to off oneself? If only Miguel was still here to tell us with 17 pages of bizarrely formatted diagrams.
Ckaihatsu could cover that I'm sure.

[S7E3L-PUL53]

Materialism can contribute to a more suicidal population, definitely. If societies main emphasis is placed on material possession, the lower classes will go through life envying what those of the higher class enjoy. This could very well contribute to ones depression and further the will towards suicide. But for the most part suicide is linked to depression and in that regard anyone is susceptible to it. It looks like Greenland is the country with the highest suicide rate, bet the weather has quite a bit to do with it. South Korea is another country with a high suicide rate and from all that I've heard about South Korea it probably has a lot to do with the pressure society places on being academically/financially successful.


I was planning my own suicide a couple of months ago, saved up about a thousand bucks to buy a handgun and wrote down a rough draft for my suicide letter. I even began looking into funeral arrangements, I didn't want to leave my family with the financial burden of all the bullshit that goes into modern funerals. Honestly if I could have I would have preferred my body to be thrown in a ditch, buried and forgotten about. But that's where I was with my mental health. I couldn't see the purpose, value or beauty in my own life. I wasn't angry about anything, I was either emotionally numb or sad.

During this period of six months or so I would be driving down the road and a song would come on and I would begin to cry uncontrollably, to the point where I had to pull over. Got a couple of strange looks from people walking by on the sidewalk and even some people (the good ones) would try to talk to me through the window of my car and see if everything was alright.

I wasn't sad for a lack of material possessions or love in my life. It was more of an existential problem. I would end up meeting an old friend from my past who I used to use harder drugs with. Used her to get to those drugs and would end up wasting the money I had saved for the handgun. Recently kicked the drugs and told my friend I wish her the best of luck, but can't stick around while she does what she does. No hard feelings.

I have to help others in my life, it's that simple. I have to live with a more altruistic purpose and find meaning in helping those around me. If I keep measuring the value of my life with material possessions or social standing, with me and how I think, I will surely one day be putting that cold steel to the roof of my mouth and pulling the trigger.

[Sewer Socialist]

Extending the conversation a little to talk about depression in general, I think it's pretty obvious that the most advanced capitalist countries are the loneliest. The capitalist mode of production atomizes social life into smaller and smaller groups, compared to the larger social circles of previous modes of production.

Does anyone have any recommendations (preferably relatively brief, since I'm trying to get through Capital right now) for reading on mental health and social relationships in capitalism?

[Artiom]

Extending the conversation a little to talk about depression in general, I think it's pretty obvious that the most advanced capitalist countries are the loneliest. The capitalist mode of production atomizes social life into smaller and smaller groups, compared to the larger social circles of previous modes of production.

Does anyone have any recommendations (preferably relatively brief, since I'm trying to get through Capital right now) for reading on mental health and social relationships in capitalism?

I havn't read it yet, but "The lonly american" is supose to be good. Written by two psychiatrist who check's out the "comfort" in being able to do a lot of stuff online or without of none-interaction with other human beings, and the effects of that.

Ontopic, I think materialism can explaine some of the issue, but alienation and strain plays the key role. Speaking of Greenland, yes they have a hughe unemployment and so on, but the main problem is that they have had their identity crushed by the west (Denmark in this case) re-placed with a modern industrial society where they are at the bottom at. So even if the (general) material living standard have raised, they still are at the bottom of the totem pole in this "new" society. Wich creates a lot of complex. About S. Korea and Japan, it's right that their preassure is way higher then in the west, but compared to the west, if you seek help for a (for exampel) depression it will get in your medical record that's gona be public(!). So you can't even seek med's in thoos countrie's for a singel issue without being able to track down. Compared to the U.S. being hte third most suicidal country in the world, where a higher ammount of ppl are on psych med's, just saying.

[S7E3L-PUL53]

I truly believe an inability to find purpose and reason in life is what ultimately caused my suicidal period.

I have a friend that I'm gonna try and meet up with today, he's a retired psychologist. He was born in the early 1940s in Chicago, took an active role in the civil rights movement in the 60's, worked within the inner cities of Chicago as well as different prison systems then finally retired as a professor at UCLA.

I'll ask him what he thinks on the subject, his answers are always insightful.

If our free time is a commodity, philanthropy is bad for business. They stand to lose if we volunteer our time in aiding those less fortunate then us. I watch the NBA and they incessantly market their star athletes carrying out local community volunteer work. Go figure they never suggest you as a viewer should take up the same cause.

I'm trying to reach out to an organization that I saw hosting a documentary on youtube. It was a 10 minute video interviewing a recent parolee from prison and his life since returning to South Central LA, where he grew up. I have some relatives I visit fairly often that live just a few blocks from this halfway house. Hoping they welcome volunteer work. Growing up I saw my uncle go through the prison system and instead of rehabilitating him it would dehumanized him to the point where he couldn't help himself when he got it. I was to young to do anything for my uncle at the time but I can do something now.

I'll keep you posted on what my friend has to say.

[Comrade Jacob]

I think he meant that everybody regrets making the decision (at least while they still can) because they don't actually want to die but really they just want better living circumstances than what they have. But since different living circumstances is often not an option, they must choose death instead, but feel bad for not getting to live the life they wanted.

I want better living conditions but I won't get it. Even if my living condition was great my mental-condition would still be fucked.