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Servia
13th December 2014, 01:52
It may seem silly but: Who will run the sewage plant or be the garbage man?

I don't doubt that there are people out there who enjoy this kind of work, but I don't think are many.

Slavic
13th December 2014, 02:06
It may seem silly but: Who will run the sewage plant or be the garbage man?

I don't doubt that there are people out there who enjoy this kind of work, but I don't think are many.


If not enough people want to collect garbage then the community could just do a lottery. Once every few years you'd get a letter that says to go ride the garbage truck around a few blocks for half the day. Problem solved.

In before ROBOTS!!!

Creative Destruction
13th December 2014, 02:09
In before ROBOTS!!!

you're denigrating the idea, but it's a serious suggestion. there's no reason why would couldn't run garbage collection on an automated basis, or even a sewage plant.

i'd prefer if everyone had composting toilets in their house and put a little bit of extra effort in thinking of their waste, and that would have to come about as part of the revolution, but there will be waste still, and unless there's an army of garbage collectors that are made up, it's work that no one else would really want to do -- lottery or otherwise. the next best option -- which we have the technology to do -- is to automate that shit.

BIXX
13th December 2014, 02:10
If not enough people want to collect garbage then the community could just do a lottery. Once every few years you'd get a letter that says to go ride the garbage truck around a few blocks for half the day. Problem solved.

In before ROBOTS!!!

God fuck the robots answer. Its so lazy.

motion denied
13th December 2014, 02:18
Call me lazy but: we'll figure it out. Whatever. That's a non issue.


Unless anyone believes people would actually drown in trash and shit. Die out of laziness.

Slavic
13th December 2014, 02:20
God fuck the robots answer. Its so lazy.

Precisely why I hate it when people make that argument.

Im not saying that robotics won't reduce labor time significantly in a socialist society. It is just used as a catchall answer to anything and everything with regards to labor, as if it is magic and will fix all of societies ills and wants. It ignores the very real fact that such a level of robotic and logistic development is not in the near future and there needs to be real solutions now.

Trash piling up outside? Fuck it, robots will take care of it in 35 years.

Who's going to make the toothbrushes? Fuck it, we will all be intelligent balls of energy in 200 years.

Creative Destruction
13th December 2014, 02:30
Precisely why I hate it when people make that argument.

Im not saying that robotics won't reduce labor time significantly in a socialist society. It is just used as a catchall answer to anything and everything with regards to labor, as if it is magic and will fix all of societies ills and wants. It ignores the very real fact that such a level of robotic and logistic development is not in the near future and there needs to be real solutions now.

Trash piling up outside? Fuck it, robots will take care of it in 35 years.

Who's going to make the toothbrushes? Fuck it, we will all be intelligent balls of energy in 200 years.

You're making these ignorant arguments because you don't realize how far along we are with automation. The mechanics of a garbage truck have been automated successful and have been implemented by quite a few municipalities. Driving the trucks themselves are about 5 - 10 years away from being just like planes, where the vast majority of the functions are automated and where there isn't really a need for an in-cabin pilot/driver. The development in this technology is far outpacing the ability of legislators to issue regulations, that's how fast it's coming along.

The lazy argument is saying "We can't do that, for a long time!" Actually, we can, and it's happening in very real time. The issues come in to what labor we need to oversee the operations and maintenance of everything. I think this is more a function of being unimaginative on your part (as well as being ignorant) than any laziness on the part of people who favor automation.

Slavic
13th December 2014, 04:40
You're making these ignorant arguments because you don't realize how far along we are with automation. The mechanics of a garbage truck have been automated successful and have been implemented by quite a few municipalities. Driving the trucks themselves are about 5 - 10 years away from being just like planes, where the vast majority of the functions are automated and where there isn't really a need for an in-cabin pilot/driver. The development in this technology is far outpacing the ability of legislators to issue regulations, that's how fast it's coming along.

The lazy argument is saying "We can't do that, for a long time!" Actually, we can, and it's happening in very real time. The issues come in to what labor we need to oversee the operations and maintenance of everything. I think this is more a function of being unimaginative on your part (as well as being ignorant) than any laziness on the part of people who favor automation.

The only automated trucks I could find are the ones with automated loaders. Someone will still be driving the truck. I wonder how this system will function on the many unpaved and narrow roads in the world.

I am not being lazy and unimaginative. I am aware of how technology is developing. I just don't realistically think we'll have a fully unmanned garbage truck in every town in the world within a generation after a socialist revolution. I'm just not seeing it.

I'm not denying that it will happen; widespread automation will happen. I just don't think it will happen in a quick enough time in which posters feel comfortable posting "Robots Brah" to every single labor problem.

TSLexi
13th December 2014, 04:45
We could just have everyone have waste-to-energy power plants and composters.

Creative Destruction
13th December 2014, 05:16
The only automated trucks I could find are the ones with automated loaders. Someone will still be driving the truck. I wonder how this system will function on the many unpaved and narrow roads in the world.

Caterpillar launched completely unmanned (as in, no one in the seat -- there's an operation center that oversees them, which was the labor I was talking about earlier that we'd need to "deal with") trucks last year, designed to work in mines:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424127887324144304578624221804774116


And then one day, man went the way of the mule.

Some 5.7 million Americans are licensed as professional drivers, steering the country's vast fleets of delivery vans, UPS trucks and tractor-trailers.

Over the next two decades, the driving will slowly be taken on by the machines themselves. Drones. Robots. Autonomous trucks. It's already happening in a barren stretch in Australia, where Caterpillar Inc. CAT -2.36% will have 45 self-directed, 240-ton mining trucks maneuvering at an iron-ore mine.

Most of the hubbub around autonomous technology has focused on passenger vehicles, notably Google's GOOG -1.83% promotional wonder, the Google Car. Ford Motor Co. F -1.90% Chairman Bill Ford Jr. says self-driving cars will hit roads by 2025. But commercial uses are where the real money and action lie: rewiring a massive part of the U.S. economy while removing tens of billions in costs from a commercial fleet that today numbers 253 million trucks.

Ubiquitous, autonomous trucks are "close to inevitable," says Ted Scott, director of engineering and safety policy for the American Trucking Associations. "We are going to have a driverless truck because there will be money in it," adds James Barrett, president of 105-rig Road Scholar Transport Inc. in Scranton, Pa.

Economic theory holds that such basic changes will, over time, improve standards of living by making us more productive and less wasteful. An idle truck with a sleeping driver is, after all, just a depreciating asset.

Enlarge Image

Driving a truck will become automated over the next two decades. Associated Press
But watching a half-decade of lagging U.S. employment, it's hard not to feel a swell of fear for those 5.7 million people, a last bastion of decent blue-collar pay.

A world without truck drivers may eventually be a better one. But for whom?

At least better for trucking-company owners, who today grapple with driver shortages of as much as 15%, in addition to perennial hassles of fuel costs, regulations and crummy margins. "Holy s—," exclaims Kevin Mullen, the safety director at ADS Logistics Co., a 300-truck firm in Chesterton, Ind. "If I didn't have to deal with drivers, and I could just program a truck and send it?"

Roughly speaking, a full-time driver with benefits will cost $65,000 to $100,000 or more a year. Even if the costs of automating a truck were an additional $400,000, most owners would leap at the chance, they say.

"There would be no workers' compensation, no payroll tax, no health-care benefits. You keep going down the checklist and it becomes pretty cheap," adds Mr. Barrett of Scranton, who says he can't find enough drivers.

Drivers call this nonsense. "People come up with these grandiose ideas," says Bob Esler of Taylor, Mich., who has been driving a truck since 1968. "How are you going to get the truck into a dock or fuel it?"

Of course, the real costs are hard to peg. Most experts on autonomous vehicles say that at least initially, the robot trucks will have to run on roads separate from regular vehicles, or via embedded roadside beacons. That won't be cheap.

And then there is the primary issue of safety—of the cargo and people on the roads. Most in the industry believe that machines should eventually become better drivers than humans. It is going to take a long time to prove the case to governments and the public. But a payoff awaits. The U.S. government estimates the costs of truck collisions at $87 billion a year, with 116,000 people either killed or injured in truck and bus crashes.

Safety is why so-called "closed-course" uses, which keep automated trucks away from the public, are happening first. That brings us back to that Australian mine, in a scorched, wretched area called The Pilbara.

It's where Caterpillar is today running six automated model 793f mining trucks. Stuffed with 2,650 horsepower and more than 25 million lines of software code, they haul away layers of rock and dirt, up and down steep grades. Traditionally, these trucks would require four drivers to operate 24 hours a day.

Today the trucks use guidance systems to run on their own, only monitored by "technical specialists" in a control room miles away. If an obstacle appears in its path, the trucks have enough onboard brain power to decide whether to drive over or around it.

In addition to safety risks, human drivers "will often make judgments, most good, but some bad, and those inconsistencies can lead to problems," says Ed McCord, the Caterpillar executive in charge of the program. Automated trucks never flinch, he says. "If it's supposed to be in fifth gear coming down a grade, it will be in fifth gear every time.

Eventually there will be 45 of these trucks on site, eliminating most of the need for 180 driving positions, according to Mr. McCord. The fewer remaining jobs, he said, pay better but be more technical — at their core, about software.

"The manufacturing job of today is a technician's job," adds Mr. McCord, who started his career 40 years ago demonstrating hydraulic excavators. "The manufacturing job of yesterday was pure labor."

That's a worthy way to understand the future of the truck driver, if we can even use that term. Just imagine, for instance, a supermarket "driver" who rides inside an automated truck, delivering packages and selling services instead of worrying about red lights and right turns.

This changes the nature of work itself—from hard skills to soft skills. It makes today's Teamsters into tomorrow's concierges.

One day, your grandchildren will be wondering, as they do about the rotary phone and the VCR. "Truck driver! What was that?"

What will you tell them?

Write to Dennis K. Berman at [email protected] and follow on Twitter: @dkberman

It would not be difficult to scale this down and be used for trucks that drive on smooth surfaces, and used in a very rote manner, like garbage trucks.


I am not being lazy and unimaginative. I am aware of how technology is developing. I just don't realistically think we'll have a fully unmanned garbage truck in every town in the world within a generation after a socialist revolution. I'm just not seeing it.

Because you're being lazy and unimaginative. You're slightly aware of how "technology is developing," but you don't apparently have so much as a surface understanding. You're not seeing it because you don't know about it.


I'm not denying that it will happen; widespread automation will happen. I just don't think it will happen in a quick enough time in which posters feel comfortable posting "Robots Brah" to every single labor problem.

We're not saying it to "every single labor problem." Stop being an idiot. The "garbageman" question comes up often, and the plainly stated fact of the matter is that it is completely possible to automate that task within the next decade, if not sooner.

Dave B
13th December 2014, 11:51
I have known three people who have done that kind of work and they perhaps coincidentally have either not minded it or even enjoyed it.

One was a guy who used to go around pumping out cess pits in rural areas that weren’t hooked up to the sewage system.



He really liked it driving around in the country and all that.

And I had a relative who worked on a sewage plant admittedly as an engineer; he liked his job.

And a straightforward binman.

It would be interesting I think to have some kind of data on mental health, suicide rates and alcoholism etc on people who do these kind of ‘dirty’ jobs .

Blake's Baby
13th December 2014, 12:31
Please, before we start this again (less than 2 weeks after the last thread on this topic) can you read this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/wants-garbage-meni-t191391/index.html?t=191391&highlight=garbage ?

Tim Cornelis
13th December 2014, 13:47
:o Ahum, this is why I think it's a good idea to have a FAQ with these questions that collects these various arguments from these various threads that we can refer people to or just copy into the comment section of a thread.

http://marxistpedia.mwzip.com/wiki/A_Marxist_FAQ

Ravn
13th December 2014, 14:14
It may seem silly but: Who will run the sewage plant or be the garbage man?

I don't doubt that there are people out there who enjoy this kind of work, but I don't think are many.


Hey, somebody on here mention robots & got all huffy about automation. But consider what the future of garbage might be:

"A world without landfills? ...

Recology, a waste-management company based in San Francisco, is working with the city of San Francisco to help it become the country's first zero-waste city — in a scant seven years.
If they're successful, all of San Franciscans' discarded items will be recycled, reused or composted, and its need for landfills will become obsolete.

"Soda cans can be crushed into huge blocks and sold to make more soda cans; used construction materials can be reworked and end up on new job sites; and last night's Chinese dinner can be composted and turned into a soil nutrient, which Recology markets to farmers to enhance crop growth in Napa and Sonoma vineyards and elsewhere..."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100470730#.

BIXX
13th December 2014, 18:48
Hey, somebody on here mention robots & got all huffy about automation. But consider what the future of garbage might be:

"A world without landfills? ...

Recology, a waste-management company based in San Francisco, is working with the city of San Francisco to help it become the country's first zero-waste city — in a scant seven years.
If they're successful, all of San Franciscans' discarded items will be recycled, reused or composted, and its need for landfills will become obsolete.

"Soda cans can be crushed into huge blocks and sold to make more soda cans; used construction materials can be reworked and end up on new job sites; and last night's Chinese dinner can be composted and turned into a soil nutrient, which Recology markets to farmers to enhance crop growth in Napa and Sonoma vineyards and elsewhere..."
http://www.cnbc.com/id/100470730#.
That company is about to make some serious bank.

Comrade #138672
14th December 2014, 02:44
God fuck the robots answer. Its so lazy.Not necessarily. It is quite feasible. Robots are the next step in the technological revolution. Saying that robots are lazy, is like saying that using machines is lazy. It is part of the development of the means of production. I do not see how it is supposed to be lazy.

Blake's Baby
14th December 2014, 11:52
No, it's not the robots that are lazy, nor the people not working because of robots that are lazy, it's the answer 'everything will be fine because robots' that is lazy.

piet11111
14th December 2014, 13:13
Its not the work that is the problem its the usual nonsense that goes along with it.
The worst parts can be made better with proper equipment and better planning.

In my case one of the worst parts of my job is having to clean out weeds by hand in large public green spaces.

They managed to cock this up from the get go first they put in a ton of plants that cant handle the high ground water level so 3/4ths died in the first 4 months.
Then they gave us filthy woodchips to cover the sand but these where full of seeds for all kinds of weeds so usually those surviving plants are hidden from view to begin with while a lot of weeds are growing up around the stems so very difficult to remove.
And the best part is that all of this is on an industrial park where absolutely nobody gives a damn and uses these "green spaces" for parking their cars in or as a dump for the stuff they sweep up from the floor in their wharehouses.

Many hundreds if not thousands of manhours are spent a year to keep that shit somewhat clean while the efficient way would have been to put some trees there and some grass.
This way it would take just 1 guy a few hours a week to mow the grass and maybe go by the trees one a month to cut the branches.
And then those bastards could still park their cars and dump their crap in the grass but i would not have to crawl around on hands and knees anymore

Red Commissar
14th December 2014, 15:20
A similar question was made in this thread a few weeks back, there was some points and such raised if you want to check those out too.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/wants-garbage-meni-t191391/index.html?t=191391

Blake's Baby
14th December 2014, 16:54
A similar question was made in this thread a few weeks back, there was some points and such raised if you want to check those out too.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/wants-garbage-meni-t191391/index.html?t=191391

Yeah, as I posted in post 12.


Please, before we start this again (less than 2 weeks after the last thread on this topic) can you read this:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/wants-garbage-meni-t191391/index.html?t=191391&highlight=garbage ?

ckaihatsu
14th December 2014, 23:40
I have known three people who have done that kind of work and they perhaps coincidentally have either not minded it or even enjoyed it.

One was a guy who used to go around pumping out cess pits in rural areas that weren’t hooked up to the sewage system.



He really liked it driving around in the country and all that.

And I had a relative who worked on a sewage plant admittedly as an engineer; he liked his job.

And a straightforward binman.

It would be interesting I think to have some kind of data on mental health, suicide rates and alcoholism etc on people who do these kind of ‘dirty’ jobs .


Subjective rationalizations aside, if we look at all of this from the *social* (collectivist co-administration) perspective, we *should* see that *allowing* such kinds of work to persist is entirely unacceptable, since their very existence is a social stratification that is incompatible with socialism and egalitarianism.

Here's from Wilde:





And as I have mentioned the word labour, I cannot help saying that a great deal of nonsense is being written and talked nowadays about the dignity of manual labour. There is nothing necessarily dignified about manual labour at all, and most of it is absolutely degrading. It is mentally and morally injurious to man to do anything in which he does not find pleasure, and many forms of labour are quite pleasureless activities, and should be regarded as such. To sweep a slushy crossing for eight hours, on a day when the east wind is blowing is a disgusting occupation. To sweep it with mental, moral, or physical dignity seems to me to be impossible. To sweep it with joy would be appalling. Man is made for something better than disturbing dirt. All work of that kind should be done by a machine.




https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/wilde-oscar/soul-man/

Mad Frankie
15th December 2014, 12:34
I don't understand why this question keeps popping up all the time, it is the crudest, most vulgar petit bourgeois banalisation. When asked by Kugelman 'who will clean shoes under communism', Marx furiously replied 'You will.'