Esperanto

[jullia]

I didn't find any thread about esperanto ( i probably miss).

What is your opinion about this language?
I think it's a good idea and i'am seriously thinking to learn it.

[DDR]

My job is to be a translator, so guess my point of view in this issue :P

[RedWorker]

Why not learn a language with hundreds of millions of speakers instead? That's probably way more helpful for international communication.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Because we oppose cultural appropriation

[Sabot Cat]

I love the concept of international auxiliary languages, and Esperanto probably has the most enthusiastic base and the most momentum, but here's the basic problem:

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png

There are a dozen and one IAUs out there, all vying to be the one. Esperanto, Ido, Volapük, Interlingua, et. al. I honestly think Esperanto is too Eurocentric, and would much prefer a more diversified vocabulary and neutral grammar, like Lojban. Nonetheless, I think the quest for a universal language is one unlikely to be achieved before we have translating programs so good we won't need one.

[jullia]

Well, the fact is by use english as international language, we open the door to USA culture, no?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Because we oppose cultural appropriation

This.

Anyway, Esperanto is horribly Eurocentric, casually sexist, nationalist and so on.

I would hold out more hope for something in the vein of Isotype, although that needs burned State and the Revolution sprinkled over it to drive the social-democracy out.

[jullia]

Anyway, Esperanto is horribly Eurocentric, casually sexist, nationalist and so on.


Can yyou tell me more about this? It's first time i heard that speech and i want to be sure of what i'am doing before loose my time.

[Q]

Can yyou tell me more about this? It's first time i heard that speech and i want to be sure of what i'am doing before loose my time.
The "Eurocentrism" argument is mostly based on idiom. Grammatically, it is its own thing. People with this argument often prefer languages like Lojban (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban), which is indeed more 'fair' in the sense that it is hard to learn for everyone. "Sexist" seems to refer to this debate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_reform_in_Esperanto), which has evolved into a non-issue (as explained in that article). The "nationalist" one is beyond me really, as Esperanto is explicitly designed for global usage, and I'll leave that explanation to 870.

I myself am very much in favor of Esperanto and would like to see it as a lingua franca in a future European unification project. Europe, the continent where I live, would hugely benefit to move away from the cultural dominance of the main languages and by having a low entry point language that can be used everywhere.

I would advise to look for a local Esperanto group and start digging in :)
We also have an Esperanto usergroup (http://www.revleft.com/vb/group.php?groupid=78) that needs more life anyway.

[tuwix]

I didn't find any thread about esperanto ( i probably miss).

What is your opinion about this language?
I think it's a good idea and i'am seriously thinking to learn it.

It's language invented by man born in Poland so I could defend it but... it wouldn't be logical.


Some natural languages (English form example) have simpler grammar. Esperanto is good for Indo-European languages speakers, but why to learn completely artificial language at all? It would be better effort to simplify existing one like Simple English does...

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Can yyou tell me more about this? It's first time i heard that speech and i want to be sure of what i'am doing before loose my time.

I think the Eurocentrism of Esperanto is obvious; it is based on Indo-European grammar and vocabulary, more precisely on the grammar and vocabulary of European languages (the influence of e.g. Sanskrit on Esperanto is minimal at best).

And no, I don't prefer Lojban. Lojban is a crime against human speech. The point is that if you're going to have an international language, then you should be a bit more attuned to how people actually speak, or explicitly limit yourself to Europe as some conlangs did.

As for sexism, words are male by default unless given a suffix; almost every word concerning women is [male word]-[female suffix].

The nationalism is apparent in the pretty inconsistent rules for ethnonyms and country names; Belgium is [Belgian][land] but a Chinese person is [China][person].

[Hrafn]

As a Swedish-speaker, I say we just take English. No conlang can survive.

[Q]

Some natural languages (English form example) have simpler grammar. Esperanto is good for Indo-European languages speakers, but why to learn completely artificial language at all? It would be better effort to simplify existing one like Simple English does...
English has a more simple grammar? What? Esperanto has 16 defined grammar rules (http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/rules.html) which you could learn by heart in less than a week. According to research done by the Institute of Cybernetic Pedagogy at Paderborn (Germany), Esperanto requires a fraction of the time to learn compared to other, natural, languages at a certain level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#Education):

2000 hours studying German = 1500 hours studying English = 1000 hours studying Italian (or any other Romance language) = 150 hours studying Esperanto.

So what is the point of learning an artificial language like Esperanto? Because it is easy to learn, vastly more easy than English anyway, it was designed to be easy. As such it is enabling humans worldwide to learn a language to communicate with eachother at a low entry point.

[RedWorker]

Whoever believes that Esperanto, or any other such language, will ever achieve actual usage even remotely is kidding him/herself. What's wrong with everyone speaking, say, Chinese, Spanish or English? Why should I learn a language to speak with 100 people instead of learning a language to speak with 1,000,000,000 people?


Because we oppose cultural appropriation

What is this even supposed to mean?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

English has a more simple grammar? What? Esperanto has 16 defined grammar rules (http://donh.best.vwh.net/Esperanto/rules.html) which you could learn by heart in less than a week. According to research done by the Institute of Cybernetic Pedagogy at Paderborn (Germany), Esperanto requires a fraction of the time to learn compared to other, natural, languages at a certain level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto#Education):

2000 hours studying German = 1500 hours studying English = 1000 hours studying Italian (or any other Romance language) = 150 hours studying Esperanto.

...if you're a French high school student (according to the article). Which is a bit problematic, as Esperanto is extremely similar to French, and without the melo glielo crap that makes Italian a pain to learn.

If your first language is highly isolating, on the other hand, or has an ergative-absolutive case system and so on, I would think that the numbers would be quite different.


So what is the point of learning an artificial language like Esperanto? Because it is easy to learn, vastly more easy than English anyway, it was designed to be easy. As such it is enabling humans worldwide to learn a language to communicate with eachother at a low entry point.

The problem with this is, first, that Esperanto is probably about as easy to learn as English for speakers of non-Indoeuropean languages (if not more so, with adjective agreement which is missing from English etc.), and second, people don't have to be fluent in English to communicate. As someone once said, the de facto world language isn't English but Dodgy Pidgin English, plus whatever snippets of the local language you know.

[newdayrising]

What is this even supposed to mean?

Exactly, what does this "cultural appropriation" thing means? Is it supposed to be a joke?

[CyM]

The language of the future will be developed in a bastardized form by the intermixing of peoples in a socialist world. Over the internet. With cat videos being the first sign of a world culture.

[Mad Frankie]

Yeah, let's call a language which basis is internationalism Eurocentric... what annoying pedantry.

[CyM]

Yeah, let's call a language which basis is internationalism Eurocentric... what annoying pedantry.
Yeah, if you use the term Eurocentric, you pretty much guarantee I'm gonna tune you out in most cases.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Yeah, let's call a language which basis is internationalism Eurocentric... what annoying pedantry.

So, if I made up an "international" language that was highly analytic, written with logograms, formed sentences by the topic-comment rule, and most of its vocabulary was taken from Mandarin, Vietnamese and Wu, you wouldn't call that Sinocentric?

[Palmares]

Yeah, if you use the term Eurocentric, you pretty much guarantee I'm gonna tune you out in most cases.

Why?


So what is the point of learning an artificial language like Esperanto? Because it is easy to learn, vastly more easy than English anyway, it was designed to be easy. As such it is enabling humans worldwide to learn a language to communicate with eachother at a low entry point.

I think the tough thing about this is just it does not seem like many are motivated to actually learn Esperanto. I can't personally speak for people's motivations, or therelackof, but I do certainly look at my experience of efforts to encourage Esperanto speaking, failing.

For example, at the G8 in Japan, the folk who were part of the organising group for the anti-G8 demonstrations realised that very few of the many international activists travelling to protest the summit would be able to speak Japanese. And of course English speaking, the most international language, is not commonly spoken in Japan. So as a way to try to mediate this, the organising group, through their international propaganda for their protest, encouraged people to learn Esperanto. However, unfortunately few, if any, of the international activists actually bothered to learn it. A disappointment for the local organisers.

I'm not saying there's no hope. I just think it's tough to motivate people to actually do it, especially since learning a language that isn't widely spoken is an almighty uphill battle. Look at all the languages that are going extinct as we speak (excuse the pun!). What's the motivation for an Indigenous person to learn their ancestors tongue when English offers so much more "opportunities"? It's just like how my mum tells me to learn Mandarin, but she never thought it necessary to teach me any of her mother tongues....

[consuming negativity]

why would i learn a language that nobody knows when the entire point of language is communication?

where can you visit and speak esperanto to get around?

what products or games or websites have instructions or content written in esperanto?

it's not even a matter of convincing people that the concept of one language is a bad thing; i myself am totally convinced on the *concept* of esperanto. the problem is that there's no reward for doing so other than to say that you can speak esperanto and then to never use the language for anything ever.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Esperanto is like what, 100 years old? How long did it take English to spread as wide as it has? I can see the downsides of it but isn't esperanto supposed to act as a backup language rather than a replacement for existing languages?


Exactly, what does this "cultural appropriation" thing means? Is it supposed to be a joke?

Yes its a joke

[jullia]

The biggest problem of esperanto is there isn't any country who adopt it as an official language.
Otherwise, the language should be more use in the world.

[Q]

The biggest problem of esperanto is there isn't any country who adopt it as an official language.
Otherwise, the language should be more use in the world.
Most Esperantists would argue that is actually a strength, as the language can then remain neutral culturally.

[jullia]

Most Esperantists would argue that is actually a strength, as the language can then remain neutral culturally.

I didn't remember where i read it, but it was saying that one restreint to esperanto development is that there is no state who adopt it as official language.
Esperanto have already develop a kind of particular culture but they need the support of a state to work. Some university already propose some cursus in esperanto but it's to much confidential and useless.
Like communer said, it should be great to have a place where you can talk esperanto, visit place and so on.

[CyM]

There is a town which speaks Esperanto.

[jullia]

There is a town which speaks Esperanto.

Which town is it?

[CyM]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herzberg_am_Harz

[Q]

Like communer said, it should be great to have a place where you can talk esperanto, visit place and so on.
You might find this interesting then (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasporta_Servo).

[Sabot Cat]

Most Esperantists would argue that is actually a strength, as the language can then remain neutral culturally.

Except that it's more European than anything else, which is fine if you want it to be a pan-European language, but Esperantists don't seem to want to acknowledge as much.

[Q]

Except that it's more European than anything else, which is fine if you want it to be a pan-European language, but Esperantists don't seem to want to acknowledge as much.
Repeating that argument doesn't make it more true.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Repeating that argument doesn't make it more true.

So the preponderance of Indo-European grammatical forms and most of the vocabulary being taken from European languages are just massive cosmic accidents?

[Sabot Cat]

Repeating that argument doesn't make it more true.

It's undeniable that Esperanto has a vocabulary derived primarily from European languages.

[BIXX]

I don't know shit about language and even less about Esperanto so can someone show me how it relies on indoeuropean grammar and European vocab?

[Creative Destruction]

why would i learn a language that nobody knows when the entire point of language is communication?

where can you visit and speak esperanto to get around?

what products or games or websites have instructions or content written in esperanto?

it's not even a matter of convincing people that the concept of one language is a bad thing; i myself am totally convinced on the *concept* of esperanto. the problem is that there's no reward for doing so other than to say that you can speak esperanto and then to never use the language for anything ever.

learning Esperanto has been shown to make it easier for you to learn a third, fourth, etc. language. regardless of its actual acceptance as an auxiliary language, it undoubtedly has immense benefits in language acquisition.

[Sabot Cat]

I don't know shit about language and even less about Esperanto so can someone show me how it relies on indoeuropean grammar and European vocab?

It certainly looks more similar than different to Romance languages than anything else.

Esperanto

Patro nia, kiu estas en la ĉielo,
Via nomo estu sanktigita.
Venu Via regno,
plenumiĝu Via volo,
kiel en la ĉielo, tiel ankaŭ sur la tero.
Nian panon ĉiutagan donu al ni hodiaŭ.
Kaj pardonu al ni niajn ŝuldojn,
kiel ankaŭ ni pardonas al niaj ŝuldantoj.
Kaj ne konduku nin en tenton,
sed liberigu nin de la malbono.
Amen.

Spanish

Padre nuestro que estás en los cielos
Santificado sea tu Nombre
Venga tu reino
Hágase tu voluntad
En la tierra como en el cielo
Danos hoy el pan de este día
y perdona nuestras deudas
como nosotros perdonamos nuestros deudores
y no nos dejes caer en al tentación
sino que líbranos del malo.
Amen.

French

Notre Père, qui es aux cieux,
Que ton nom soit sanctifié,
Que ton règne vienne,
Que ta volonté soit faite
sur la terre comme au ciel.
Donne-nous aujourd'hui notre pain de ce jour.
Pardonne-nous nos offences
Comme nous pardonnons aussi à ceux qui nous ont offensés.
Et ne nous soumets pas à la tentation,
mais délivre-nous du mal
Amen.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I don't know shit about language and even less about Esperanto so can someone show me how it relies on indoeuropean grammar and European vocab?

It's a moderately fusional language that relies on endings (as opposed to Arabic for example, which changes the structure of the vowels in a word), with most grammatical categories taken from Indo-European languages (so the cases are nominative and accusative, not ergative and absolutive), the words are mostly changed forms of Germanic (hund) or Romance roots (vir), and so on.

[Q]

So the preponderance of Indo-European grammatical forms and most of the vocabulary being taken from European languages are just massive cosmic accidents?
What Indo-European grammatical forms?

Yes, idiom was already conceded. I will also concede that the alphabet is based on the Latin alphabet. The shock. The horror.

Listen, I'm a European, I have already stated that in my view Esperanto would work rather well as a continental language. That it would also work rather well in the Americas, almost all of Africa, Oceania and Southern-Asia, is indeed a very happy coincidense (well, not so much, but well, it's the situation we're working from).

Anyway I'll just refer to this FAQ (http://www.esperanto.info/en/basic_information/common_objections/common_criticisms_about_esperanto) for this and other critiques that have aired so far:


Isn't Esperanto very Euro-centric? That's not fair to people elsewhere.

Actually, Esperanto's grammar is not Euro-centric and its simplicity and logic will be appreciated by everybody. Only the vocabulary is Euro-centric. And this is not a disadvantage but an advantage for everybody, because the majority of the world's population knows a European language: not just people in North and South America and Australia but also people in Africa typically speak at least one European language. In Asia there are not quite as many people as elsewhere, but learning European languages is still incredibly popular there. Also, Esperanto's vocabulary is so versatile that very few word stems actually have to be learned. For example, it's a common estimate that knowing 500 word roots are enough to express basically anything in Esperanto and most of the rest are just synonyms of words that could be created from those roots.


And what's the alternative? The fairest language would take word stems from every single language in the world. On a regular-sized vocabulary, that results in about 2 word stems per language and a lot of quarreling about which language really common words like "and" are taken from. Assuming that you have a chance to understand words from 10 languages due to languages you studied and cognates, that still results in a language whose vocabulary is 99% incomprehensible to you and everybody else.

[Sabot Cat]

Among other problems, the FAQ gives a false dichotomy-strawman combo. No, you don't have to take word stems from as many languages as language to be more fair. It's ridiculous to present that as the sole alternative. You could very well take, say, the top commonly spoken languages or linguistic families, as has already been done in better international auxiliary language projects.

Furthermore, I don't see the use in just not using a natural European language, or a modified one to make it simpler, if we don't care for cultural neutrality or giving as many as people- as practically as possible- equitable footing in learning it.