Macedonia name dispute

[Philosophos]

Hi I'm Greek and I currently live in Bulgaria and I have this question wondering around my mind: What is the left point of view on the Macedonian name dispute?

Many historians claim that Macedonians clearly had greek origin and they were speaking ancient greek (with differences of course) and were worshiping ancient greek gods, they came from Argos etc. Also the ancient Macedonia region (before the conquests of Alexander the Great) had almost nothing to do with the modern Macedonian area.
I haven't read many theories that claim that this data (and many others) are false and IMO historians wouldn't just go around and put on the stake their careers if they weren't sure, so I will make the assumption here that the historical facts are true, so historically speaking the use of the name Macedonia
is not correct.

Many Bulgarians claim that Macedonians are in fact Bulgarians. I've also met a couple of them that openly say that they are Bulgarians and take Bulgarian passports just like their family and friends did. They don't want to have any kind of connection to Alexander the Great and they strongly believe that they should focus on their slavic roots and not "on fake roots that the regime chose for them". (I'm not saying that because of these couple of guys this should be treated as a fact or sth).

At the same time, Bulgarians say that Macedonians speak a dialect of the bulgarian language and that they can clearly understand each other with no many problems. Also Bulgarians blame Macedonians that they change historical facts and they claim greek history as their own while at the same time they claim bulgarian history and bulgarian figures as their own.

This is only some of the current arguments that take place in those three countries about the name dispute and most believe that it was only caused so Macedonia could be recognised as a country, because at the time Yugoslavia got separated in many different countries, the EU, USA etc needed a strong history backround to recognise these countries as independent. At the same time many believe that the USA and some other countries support Macedonia in the name dispute, just so they can have them under their influence and so that the Macedonians won't take the side of Russia, in a few words for political games. Greeks believe that this is happening so at any time Macedonia will be able to start a war (with the help of the USA) at any time so they will take the Greek Macedonian region, in case Greece doesn't follow the USA, NATO plans.

Now time for my questions: As socialists, how should we confront this issue?
Should we go with the historical facts and stop calling Macedonia as Macedonia or should we support them?
I get that I have absolutely nothing to divide with these people, but at the same time I get the feeling that this is just another way of the "great powers" to mess things up in the Balkans as they always do.

I'm also divided in this issue because most of the greek communist parties claim many different things. The KKE doesn't give a proper answer to the issue and they say that the name should have the term Macedonia in it but for purely geographical purposes, for example North Macedonia or Slavo-Macedonia and stuff like that. On the other hand many smaller parties say that the KKE has fallen in a "capitalist/imperialist way of thinking" and that we must support our neighbors and "stop bullying them".

Note that by no means I don't have any kind of nationalist indentions here whatsoever and I'm purely interested on how I should confront this subject when it comes on the table of discusion.

[Blake's Baby]

I don't think it's up to anyone else how some people want to self-identify.

If some people in Macedonia want to identify as Macedonians that's up to them.

If other people in Macedonia want to identify as Bulgarians that's up to them.

If other people in Macedonia want to identify as Greek that's up to them.

If Greeks or Bulgarians outside of Macedonia and don't identify as Macedonian get upset - fuck 'em. They don't get to chose.

Anyway it's not like anyone's going to go 'only this name for people who can demonstrate that all their ancestors back to 350BC have lived in this mountain-pass and no-where else...'. That would be really really stupid. Modern Macedonia is a mix of south Slavic, Bulgarian, Greek, Albanian... (keep multiplying for any ethnic group sloshing around the Balkans since 350BC).

All nations are constructs anyway. None of them are 'natural'. They'll all be swept away in the revolution. It won't matter.

[Hrafn]

Macedonia is an excellent example of how politics can change concepts of ethnicity.

[TC]

All national claims are nonsense.

[Ismail]

As far as the Macedonian nation goes, this was the "Stalinist" position back in the day (Dimitrov in 1948): http://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/archive/DimitCong5.htm#V._The_Southern_Slav_Federation_and _the_


Under the newly created domestic and international conditions, the vital interests of the Bulgarian and Yugoslav peoples demanded that both nations seek the closest rapprochement which would quickly lead to their economic and political unification – to the establishment of a federation of Southern Slavs. Such a federation, firmly based on friendship with the U.S.S.R. and fraternal collaboration with the other new democracies, could have successfully defended the freedom and independence of its peoples and ensured their proper development toward socialism. Within the framework of such a federation there would have been successfully solved, all the old unsolved problems left over by the bourgeois-monarchic regimes concerning the unification of the Macedonians from the Pirin district with the People's Republic of Macedonia, as well as the return to Bulgaria of the purely Bulgarian Western Border Region which the Yugoslavia of King Alexander had grabbed after World War I....

Prior to World War II there had grown up a powerful progressive Macedonian movement in Bulgaria, which advocated the self-determination of the Macedonian people, as a free nation. It was fully supported by our Party, which during the war, worked in full agreement with the Macedonian Communists. Bulgarian partisans fought shoulder to shoulder with Macedonian partisans against the German-Bulgarian occupation forces. Our Party warmly welcomed the establishment of a Macedonian People's Republic, within the Federative People's Republic of Yugoslavia.

Everyone knows that our Party made great sacrifices in the struggle for the defence of the Macedonian people's right to self-determination, and against the aggressive policy of the Bulgarian bourgeoisie.

After the Bled Agreement, and in order to help forward the process of the drawing together and future unification of the Macedonian regions in both countries, our Party sanctioned the introduction of the official Macedonian language as a compulsory subject in all schools in the Pirin district, and admitted many Macedonian teachers from Skopie as instructors, as well as Macedonian librarians to circulate Macedonian books. This was a proof that our Party felt the greatest sympathy for the Macedonian people's unification.

But the Belgrade and Skopie leaders double-crossed us despite our Party's good intentions. Most of the teachers and librarians sent from Skopie, evidently on instructions from their Yugoslav leaders, became agents of Greater Yugoslav, anti-Bulgarian chauvinist propaganda; and later, after the treachery of Tito's group towards the U.S.S.R. and the united anti-imperialist camp, they came out as open anti-Soviet agents.

What Kulishevsky's agents did in the Pirin district was only a reflection of what happened inside the People's Republic of Macedonia. Under the pretext of a struggle against Greater Bulgarian chauvinism and with the aid of the state apparatus and all other public organisations – political and cultural – a systematic campaign was waged against everything Bulgarian, against the Bulgarian people, their culture, their people's democracy, their Fatherland Front and especially against our Party. No Bulgarian books or newspapers, not even Rabotnichesko Delo, were allowed to enter the People's Republic of Macedonia. All Bulgarian inscriptions on old school buildings and other monuments were carefully erased. Family names, as for instance Kulishev, Uzunov, Tsvetkov and others, became, as we know, Kulishevsky, Uzunovsky, Tsvetkovsky, so that they should have nothing in common with Bulgarian names...

The main point in the attacks against the people's democracies made last July at he 5th Congress of the Yugoslav Communist Party in Belgrade was directed against our nation. In their speeches Tito, Djilas, Tempo, Kulishevsky, and Vlahov spat their chauvinist venom at Bulgaria and at our Party, whose fault, it seems, is its refusal to let them grab the Pirin district and its condemnation of their treason. General Tempo went even so far in his chauvinist self-deceit as to jeer at the anti-fascist struggle of the Bulgarian people and their partisan movement, although everyone knows that our partisans fought together with Yugoslav partisans and that our army played an active part under Marshal Tolbukhin in the war for the final liberation of Yugoslavia...

The nationalist and chauvinist policy of the Titos and Kulishevskys, which is the other side of the coin of their anti-Soviet alignment, is not only directed against Bulgaria and the Bulgarian people but also against the Macedonian people. This policy has borrowed the methods of the Bulgarian and Serbian nationalists and is sowing hatred among the Macedonian people, inciting one part against the other, resorting to terror and persecution against those who disapprove of the official course of the present Yugoslav leaders. In this way the realisation of the age-old dream of the Macedonian people – their national unification – is being artificially delayed.

The people of the Pirin district, however, refuse to fall for this vicious anti-Bulgarian and disruptive propaganda. They are opposed to the inclusion of their land in Yugoslavia before the realisation of a federation between Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, because from time immemorial they have considered themselves economically, politically and culturally tied to the Bulgarian people and do not wish to cut loose. Besides, they are still alive among these people the traditions of the Macedonian revolutionary movement and, in particular, of its Seres wing, headed by Sandansky, which has always advocated federation as the only correct solution of the Macedonian question.

We know very well that the nationalist and chauvinist policy of Belgrade and Skopie leaders of the Tito and Kulishevsky type do not have the approval of the majority of the Macedonian people who are convinced that their national unification will be built on an understanding between Yugoslavia and Bulgaria, in cooperation with these peoples and with the powerful assistance of the U.S.S.R.

Our Party has always said and continues to say that Macedonia should belong to the Macedonians. True to the traditions of the Macedonian revolutionaries, together with all honest Macedonian patriots, we are deeply convinced that the Macedonian people will translate their national unity into reality and will ensure their future as a free nation with equal rights only within the framework of a federation of Southern Slavs.

[Philosophos]

I don't think it's up to anyone else how some people want to self-identify.

If some people in Macedonia want to identify as Macedonians that's up to them.

If other people in Macedonia want to identify as Bulgarians that's up to them.

If other people in Macedonia want to identify as Greek that's up to them.

If Greeks or Bulgarians outside of Macedonia and don't identify as Macedonian get upset - fuck 'em. They don't get to chose.

Anyway it's not like anyone's going to go 'only this name for people who can demonstrate that all their ancestors back to 350BC have lived in this mountain-pass and no-where else...'. That would be really really stupid. Modern Macedonia is a mix of south Slavic, Bulgarian, Greek, Albanian... (keep multiplying for any ethnic group sloshing around the Balkans since 350BC).

All nations are constructs anyway. None of them are 'natural'. They'll all be swept away in the revolution. It won't matter.

I agree with you on that, nations are not natural and I pretty much want them to go away after the revolution, but I can't seem to realise why they decided to use this name in particular while they knew it would cause havoc between the relations of Greece and Macedonia.
The world right now works in a certain (ridiculous) way with boarders, countries, interests of countries etc, so with the logic of this capitalistic view for countries, why did they choose this name and why they keep claiming it while they see it causes great problems and is pretty much based on false facts.

[Blake's Baby]

Why does Greece want them to stop? What is it that gives Greece the right to claim a term for itself and deny it to others? It's not up to Greece how the Macedonians want to call themselves.

So: what's Greece's problem, I think you should be asking.

If you were called 'David' I wouldn't scream at you that you can't be called David because that's my name, who are you to steal it you filthy thief?

The whole idea is just absurd. Greeks who whine about this are either fools who don't realise they're stirring up nationalists hatred, or committed nationalists who do realise. Either way, their actions are hugely harmful to working class internationalism and need to be combatted.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Hi I'm Greek

Are you really?

I mean, the population of modern Greece is the result of a centuries-long intermixing between ancient Greeks, Slavs, Romans, Goths, Turks and so on. So according to your own criteria when it comes to the Macedonians, you shouldn't call yourself a Greek. You live in a part of the region once called "Greece", but then again Macedonians live in a part of the region once called Macedonia, and apparently that's not enough.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't call yourself a Greek, or however you want, only that your criteria are bad, and reflect an unconscious Greek chauvinism.

[Philosophos]

Are you really?

I mean, the population of modern Greece is the result of a centuries-long intermixing between ancient Greeks, Slavs, Romans, Goths, Turks and so on. So according to your own criteria when it comes to the Macedonians, you shouldn't call yourself a Greek. You live in a part of the region once called "Greece", but then again Macedonians live in a part of the region once called Macedonia, and apparently that's not enough.

Which is not to say that you shouldn't call yourself a Greek, or however you want, only that your criteria are bad, and reflect an unconscious Greek chauvinism.

Oh sorry I thought we were identifying our nationality depending one where we were born. If you actually think that I carry any delusions that I have only greek genes or blood or whatever then you couldnt be more wrong.
EDIT: Turkey also lives in a place once called Macedonia, just like Iraq and India, I don't hear them calling themselves Macedonians. One of the main arguments that the Macedonians have is that no matter what happened to their region (conquered by Serbs or Albanians or whoever) they stayed there so their roots are in this region. Alexander the Great started making Ancient Macedonia a huge kingdom starting from a smaller region which did not include the today's Macedonia area. It was later on conquered by Alexander the Great. I hope that answers the "but then again Macedonians live in a part of the region once called Macedonia, and apparently that's not enough" part

[Philosophos]

Why does Greece want them to stop? What is it that gives Greece the right to claim a term for itself and deny it to others? It's not up to Greece how the Macedonians want to call themselves.

So: what's Greece's problem, I think you should be asking.

If you were called 'David' I wouldn't scream at you that you can't be called David because that's my name, who are you to steal it you filthy thief?

The whole idea is just absurd. Greeks who whine about this are either fools who don't realise they're stirring up nationalists hatred, or committed nationalists who do realise. Either way, their actions are hugely harmful to working class internationalism and need to be combatted.

Well Greeks are very attached to their history and they believe that the claims from another country is going to steal some of their thunder or something. They carry the illusion that they did these things (created democracy and so on) so they thing they own Ancient Macedonias history.

The name example that you gave me is something I understand, but you can't really compare history with just a name, because people are not so much attached to a guys name, but they are attached to historical names (Macedonian name dispute is a great example).

On the other hand I think I might point back to you the same thing: Why don't Macedonians change their name so internationalism and working class won't be hurt? I know they want to identify themselves as Macedonians, but claiming the history from greeks and saying for example that Alexander the Great was not Greek, but just Macedonian is anti-scientific and false. It's like saying that Lenin did everything in the name of capitalism or fascism.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Oh sorry I thought we were identifying our nationality depending one where we were born. If you actually think that I carry any delusions that I have only greek genes or blood or whatever then you couldnt be more wrong.

EDIT: Turkey also lives in a place once called Macedonia, just like Iraq and India, I don't hear them calling themselves Macedonians. One of the main arguments that the Macedonians have is that no matter what happened to their region (conquered by Serbs or Albanians or whoever) they stayed there so their roots are in this region. Alexander the Great started making Ancient Macedonia a huge kingdom starting from a smaller region which did not include the today's Macedonia area. It was later on conquered by Alexander the Great. I hope that answers the "but then again Macedonians live in a part of the region once called Macedonia, and apparently that's not enough" part

Anatolia, Mesopotamia etc. were once part of the empire of Alexander the Great, which is not the same thing as the region of Macedonia. Of course, if the people there want to call themselves "Macedonians", good for them? It would be quite ridiculous if we were to say that they can't call themselves that.

It's also interesting you mention Iraq, as the Umayyad term "Iraq" referred to a portion of modern Iraq, and quite a bit of Iran. The term "Bahrain" covered more of Iraq, but it didn't include modern Bahrain. And so on.

(Hell, the country I'm in is called "Croatia" despite the term's previous association with only one part of the country - which part depending on the century. Place names change and boundaries shift.)

And the history of the Macedonian region doesn't end with Alexander the Great. The geographic region of Macedonia had clearly-defined borders by the late Roman empire.



On the other hand I think I might point back to you the same thing: Why don't Macedonians change their name so internationalism and working class won't be hurt?

If your Spanish parents call you Jesus, and some stuck-up Christian comes and demands you change your name, you're not required to do that. He's being unreasonable, not you.

[Philosophos]

Anatolia, Mesopotamia etc. were once part of the empire of Alexander the Great, which is not the same thing as the region of Macedonia. Of course, if the people there want to call themselves "Macedonians", good for them? It would be quite ridiculous if we were to say that they can't call themselves that.

It's also interesting you mention Iraq, as the Umayyad term "Iraq" referred to a portion of modern Iraq, and quite a bit of Iran. The term "Bahrain" covered more of Iraq, but it didn't include modern Bahrain. And so on.

(Hell, the country I'm in is called "Croatia" despite the term's previous association with only one part of the country - which part depending on the century. Place names change and boundaries shift.)

And the history of the Macedonian region doesn't end with Alexander the Great. The geographic region of Macedonia had clearly-defined borders by the late Roman empire.



If your Spanish parents call you Jesus, and some stuck-up Christian comes and demands you change your name, you're not required to do that. He's being unreasonable, not you.

I only mentioned Iraq because it's in a region were it used to be a part of the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom, not for any other reason and I'm not quite familiar with it's history and it was completely random.

You mention the Romans which is quite interesting cause they used to call Crete (the most southern and biggest greek island) also as Macedonia, which makes no sense, should Crete be called Macedonia too?

On the other hand about the name thing, christians give their name to a child so it would feel like they will get help from this particular saint or Jesus in the case that you mention and might share a couple of his/her virtues (like for example he might become very loyal or a good scholar etc). The person that has the name Jesus doesn't say that he is Jesus, he says that he carries his name. Macedonia doesn't claim to have the name Macedonia it claims it is Macedonia. That's why countries names and human names have nothing to do with each other, so I find your example a little weak.

Just to clarify, I personally wouldn't have a problem (historically speaking always) if Macedonians were calling themselves greek (having greek cultural traits that might have changed throughout the years) and then suddenly at some point they became slavs or if they call themselves slavo-macedonians or something like that. What bothers me it's that they want to change historical facts. All historians say that Macedonia in the era of Alexander the Great was greek, but they say that Alexander was JUST Macedonian which back in the day the term macedonian was not a national or ethnic term, just geographical.

I know that regions change names and boundries and so on, but historical facts don't change. This country claims to change history itself which in my opinion is just childish. It's like I'm saying that bacteria dont exist. This is anti-scientific and a lie.

I hope you now get what my question really is.

[Hrafn]

Stop being a chauvinist, Philo. It is unbecoming of you.

[Philosophos]

Stop being a chauvinist, Philo. It is unbecoming of you.

I seriously don't know if I become a chauvinist, I believe I have lots of work to do on many subjects, but can you point out where exactly I did so? I can understand better when someone proves me wrong of what I say instead of just letting me trying to figure it out.

[Lord Testicles]

The person that has the name Jesus doesn't say that he is Jesus, he says that he carries his name. Macedonia doesn't claim to have the name Macedonia it claims it is Macedonia.

Does Macedonia claim to be the ancient kingdom of Macedonia? If it does then why would that matter?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I seriously don't know if I become a chauvinist, I believe I have lots of work to do on many subjects, but can you point out where exactly I did so? I can understand better when someone proves me wrong of what I say instead of just letting me trying to figure it out.

I think people are calling you that because it seems like this is tied up with some kind of obscene national pride. The borders of all states were drawn by lunatics with guns, of course they don't make any sense, they're wholly artificial. Communists shouldn't care about this.

Plus imagine how much worse it could be if this really bothers you: native americans make up only a tiny percentage of the population here in the US, but just about every white person will tell you that they are really a native american themselves. Which supposedly justifies all kinds of shit like rednecks driving around with fucking dreamcatchers and major sports teams using racist caricatures for mascots. Can you imagine being a native american and putting up with all that shit? The fact that this country claims to be another country that in reality it was only a part of sounds like a pretty stupid issue in comparison.

[Philosophos]

Does Macedonia claim to be the ancient kingdom of Macedonia? If it does then why would that matter?

I'm not quite sure about it, but maybe (and that's a big maybe) they do. If they do so they also need to accept other parts of history that goes hand by hand with the greek history. Ancient Macedonians fought with the rest of the hellenic world against Persians, they took part in the Olympic Games (only hellenes/greeks could take part) and many more things. Macedonians don't accept this part of history mostly because they want to claim Macedonia as something completely different, as a different entity that had nothing to do with the real history.

[Lord Testicles]

I'm not quite sure about it, but maybe (and that's a big maybe) they do. If they do so they also need to accept other parts of history that goes hand by hand with the greek history. Ancient Macedonians fought with the rest of the hellenic world against Persians, they took part in the Olympic Games (only hellenes/greeks could take part) and many more things. Macedonians don't accept this part of history mostly because they want to claim Macedonia as something completely different, as a different entity that had nothing to do with the real history.


Okay, what do Macedonians want to claim that the Kingdom of Macedonia was? And again, why does this matter?

[Philosophos]

I think people are calling you that because it seems like this is tied up with some kind of obscene national pride. The borders of all states were drawn by lunatics with guns, of course they don't make any sense, they're wholly artificial. Communists shouldn't care about this.

Plus imagine how much worse it could be if this really bothers you: native americans make up only a tiny percentage of the population here in the US, but just about every white person will tell you that they are really a native american themselves. Which supposedly justifies all kinds of shit like rednecks driving around with fucking dreamcatchers and major sports teams using racist caricatures for mascots. Can you imagine being a native american and putting up with all that shit? The fact that this country claims to be another country that in reality it was only a part of sounds like a pretty stupid issue in comparison.

I might have not made myself clear, maybe my english is not really good or I might actually have trouble seeing what my mistakes are in my statements.

I never said anything about changing borders of the countries and so on. The only reference I made is that some people believe that Macedonians claimed this name just so they can have an excuse for a later war to reclaim the rest of macedonian region. Many countries had this "strategy" just like some Albanians want the Great Albania with Kosovo, Hepiros, Macedonia etc and just like there are some lunatics in Greece that want Istabul back because it used to be part of the Byzantine Empire and for some reason we have been brainwashed to believe that the Empire was greek.

What I'm interested in is to know what happens in a case like this where we have some people claiming history while there are evidence that they have a different historical backround.

Of course native americans are the actual people that lived there before the USA citizens, but the USA people never claimed the native american history. I don't see many USA citizens claiming that their ancestors were summoning spirits through totems or something like that. They talk about Kennedy and the Civil War and so on.

Plus I don't feel any kind of obscene pride for my country. I would feel if we all did something nice/important all together and I was also a part of it, but still I wouldn't go bragging "Oh look at me I'm greek, we did this, cause we are greek and Greece is the best". I would get the same feelings if I lived in France and I was doing something important with French people and Pakistani people and Germans and whoever. It just happens that we carry the label of our nationality and we sometimes need to specify that this is greek, this is bulgarian, this is russian etc.

I just started this topic because I'm familiar with it and I want to hear different opinions from the ones I know so I will get to choose the best/correct one. I know I might seem like a nationalist because I talk about something that has to do with the country I come from and I might seem I take the position of the greece on the subject, but I just want to know why would someone turn a blind eye on history.

[Lord Testicles]

Of course native americans are the actual people that lived there before the USA citizens, but the USA people never claimed the native american history. I don't see many USA citizens claiming that their ancestors were summoning spirits through totems or something like that.

Apparently that's a thing that Americans do. Skip to the 4 minute mark.

qbYs7QagnDc

[Philosophos]

Okay, what do Macedonians want to claim that the Kingdom of Macedonia was? And again, why does this matter?

they want to claim that it was something different than what it was. They claim that Ancient Macedonians were speaking ancient macedonian meaning a different language than the ancient hellenic language but that's not true. They also don't accept the fact that ancient macedonians weren't hellenes and the list goes on. It matters because these things are facts.

If someone has cancer it's his choice to tell to himself that he doesn't have cancer, but still it doesn't change the fact that he has it. Now if a doctor tells him that he actually has cancer (in this case the doctor is the historian) and the guy just keeps saying that the doctor is wrong what would that make? A false statement.

What I really can't understand is why Macedonia claims this name with false arguments while the truth has been exposed to them many times. I'm not saying that's it's a life threatening issue or that it matters about how the world works or sth, but I just can;t seem to understand it.

[TheEmancipator]

I think the most reasonable solution is a composite name such as Vardar Macedonia. NOT Slavic Macedonia because the Macedonian ethnicity goes beyond mere South Slavic/Hellenes/Albanian/Bulgarian ethnic divides.

Ultimately the key issue here is that the Macedonian ethnicity should be recognised by Bulgaria and Greece though. That simply hasn't been hte case particularly with the former. What is irredentist about calling yourself 'Republic of Macedonia', when you were a Federal entity called 'Socialist Republic of Macedonia' beforehand, I will never know. I imagine it is used by Greek and Bulgarian nationalists to promote this idea that they have always been hard done by the Communists of this world.

[Philosophos]

Apparently that's a thing that Americans do. Skip to the 4 minute mark.

qbYs7QagnDc

Seriously why? Just why?

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Every white american is simultaneously a full blooded native american, a full blooded irish person and a direct descendant from the May Flower depending on what time of year it is and what kind of bullshit they are trying to defend.

[Blake's Baby]

You're complaining that the official history of Macedonia is that Alexander the Great came from there, and 'really' he's Greek?

So what? I live in a country that claims is was founded 1500 years ago by Germans who chased everyone else away which is just monumental bullshit. Do you think I should go around shouting 'NO! Only a very few 'English' came to England! Most people stayed where they were, in Germany and Britain! You should call yourselves Cumbrian, stupid English people!'

Really. It's ridiculous. Leave them alone, even if you think they're wrong. They're not hurting you. Get over it.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I just remembered, if we're talking about regional names not matching the historical borders of certain regions the province I was born in was named after an Illyrian tribe that lived in upper Bosnia. People born in Bosnian Posavina don't seem to begrudge me for saying that I was born in Dalmatia, however.

Just don't get us started on the spotted dogs.


I only mentioned Iraq because it's in a region were it used to be a part of the Ancient Macedonian Kingdom, not for any other reason and I'm not quite familiar with it's history and it was completely random.

The point was that the overlap between the modern state of Iraq and the Umayyad region of the same name is no greater than than that of the modern state of Macedonia and the Roman-era and later region of the same name. The modern state of Bahrain is completely outside the Umayyad region of Bahrain.

But no one would claim, surely, that Iraqis or Bahrainis need to change their name.

Also, the Arab name for Algeria, al-Jazair, and the related term al-Jazira, was used by several regions outside Algeria. Should Algerians change their name as well?


You mention the Romans which is quite interesting cause they used to call Crete (the most southern and biggest greek island) also as Macedonia, which makes no sense, should Crete be called Macedonia too?

As I recall it Crete was separate, under Creta et Cyrenaica. But it wouldn't surprise me if it had been under Macedonia at some point.

Do people from Crete want to call themselves Macedonians? If yes, sure, they can call themselves whatever they want.


On the other hand about the name thing, christians give their name to a child so it would feel like they will get help from this particular saint or Jesus in the case that you mention and might share a couple of his/her virtues (like for example he might become very loyal or a good scholar etc).

Or because the kid's grandfather was called like that. Or because they think it's a cool name. Or...


The person that has the name Jesus doesn't say that he is Jesus, he says that he carries his name. Macedonia doesn't claim to have the name Macedonia it claims it is Macedonia. That's why countries names and human names have nothing to do with each other, so I find your example a little weak.

"Macedonia claims it is Macedonia"? What does that mean? It is the state called Macedonia, true. No one in Macedonia claims that the state is the ancient kingdom of Macedon.


Just to clarify, I personally wouldn't have a problem (historically speaking always) if Macedonians were calling themselves greek (having greek cultural traits that might have changed throughout the years) and then suddenly at some point they became slavs or if they call themselves slavo-macedonians or something like that.

And that's the issue here. The entire "controversy" over the name (the fact is, everyone outside of Greece calls Macedonians Macedonians) is a way for the Greek government to deny the existence of the Macedonian minority in Greece. Just as some people in Croatia refuse to accept the Bosniaks as a nation, considering them Islamicised Croats (because pre-Islamic Bosnia was Croatian hahahaha no).

And that's why you need to fight this sort of thinking.


What bothers me it's that they want to change historical facts. All historians say that Macedonia in the era of Alexander the Great was greek, but they say that Alexander was JUST Macedonian which back in the day the term macedonian was not a national or ethnic term, just geographical.

Back in the day, there were no national terms as there were no nations. The position of Macedon vis-a-vis the poleis of Greece changed over the years; they were certainly considered barbarians until the point when Philip of Macedon had most of the poleis by the balls. But that's not important; the really worrying statement is "they want to change historical facts"? Who are "they"? You seem to have found some Macedonian nationalists and decided that everyone who uses the term "Macedonian" to refer to themselves thinks like that. That's like saying everyone who calls themselves a "Croat" thinks they descend from an Iranian tribe that mysteriously found itself right in the middle of Slavic territory.

Sorry, but this is no more coherent than those LAOS nutters that protest against the term "lesbian".

[Blake's Baby]

I've seen Albanians objecting to the use of the term 'Greek' because though they admit there's a Greek language, there are no 'Greeks'. Only Christian Turks who speak Greek.

Some people have odd ideas.

[Philosophos]

And that's the issue here. The entire "controversy" over the name (the fact is, everyone outside of Greece calls Macedonians Macedonians) is a way for the Greek government to deny the existence of the Macedonian minority in Greece.

I see your points, but with this sentence you reminded me of something else. The minority of Macedonians living in Greece is around 15000 people or something. The problem with the Macedonians is that they call me and everyone that lives in greek macedonian part as Macedonian (ethnically not geographically). One of their reporters went out in a greek tv show and said: "brothers we are coming to free you" in macedonian. There are also people believing that we are being opressed or something by the greek government. I call myself a macedonian, but I still believe I'm greek, they try to tell me that I'm from a different nationality and that they have their eyes on the region. Something like that would cause a war over nothing and that's something I like to never occur. If it's for a war to come, better be against the system.

The greek macedonians are more than 3 million and the Macedonians claim as to be part of them.

[Philosophos]

I've seen Albanians objecting to the use of the term 'Greek' because though they admit there's a Greek language, there are no 'Greeks'. Only Christian Turks who speak Greek.

Some people have odd ideas.

Say what now? Seriously that's the first time I hear something like that and I have Albanian friends and we talk quite freely about political stuff, so if there was something like that I think they would have told me. Not trying to call you a liar or something, but that really made me wonder...

[Sentinel]

just like there are some lunatics in Greece that want Istabul back because it used to be part of the Byzantine Empire and for some reason we have been brainwashed to believe that the Empire was greek

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think it's fair enough to say that the empire was greek? Greek was the official language for 800 years and especially towards the end of it's existence, it was mostly ruled by greek-speaking families. It was also commonly referred to as the 'Greek empire' in the West, although this was not accepted by the people of the empire itself who claimed (technically correctly, for sure) to be a continuation of the ancient Roman state and thus the 'Roman Empire'.

In my understanding, while it did contain other nations, some of whose representatives even rose to the imperial purple (a few Armenians for example), those were still not of equal status, for example Bulgaria rose up in nationalist rebellion several times due to the oppression. In any case during the last centuries of it's existence at least, it pretty much only contained the greek-speaking heartlands (then on both sides of the Aegean), and at least then calling it greek seems justified?

All this said, I obviously agree with you that it is lunacy for someone in Greece to claim Istanbul or any other of the former greek regions held by Turkey today, as they have clear turkish majority now after the population exchanges in the 20s etc (Istanbul probably had way before), and the same goes for former Balkans possessions etc.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I see your points, but with this sentence you reminded me of something else. The minority of Macedonians living in Greece is around 15000 people or something. The problem with the Macedonians is that they call me and everyone that lives in greek macedonian part as Macedonian (ethnically not geographically). One of their reporters went out in a greek tv show and said: "brothers we are coming to free you" in macedonian. There are also people believing that we are being opressed or something by the greek government. I call myself a macedonian, but I still believe I'm greek, they try to tell me that I'm from a different nationality and that they have their eyes on the region. Something like that would cause a war over nothing and that's something I like to never occur. If it's for a war to come, better be against the system.

The greek macedonians are more than 3 million and the Macedonians claim as to be part of them.

Again, you seem to be taking something that was possibly said by one person, presumably an extreme nationalist, as representative of how Macedonians in general think. That's as I said that Greeks think that there are no minorities in Greece (and to be honest, I have heard several Greeks, who probably consider themselves to be quite moderate, say this, whereas I haven't heard many Macedonians say that the Greek Macedonians are all Slavic Macedonians, although most of them will say that some of the Greek-speaking population has been Graecised fairly recently - which is true, as a matter of fact).

Be that as it may, that has nothing to do with the name Macedonians use for themselves. Perhaps it is confusing that the name for the nationality and the region is the same, but consider an example from Croatia. In Istria, we have:

(1) Istrians, that is, people living in Istria;
(2) Istriots, speakers of a Central Romance language; and
(3) Istro-Rumanians, speakers of an East Romance language, who have nothing to do with (Daco-)Rumanians at that.

I don't think any of these groups should change their name.

Also, no one knows for sure how many (Slavic) Macedonians there are in Greece, as the Greek government's position on minorities in Greece is "la la la I can't hear you".


Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think it's fair enough to say that the empire was greek? Greek was the official language for 800 years and especially towards the end of it's existence, it was mostly ruled by greek-speaking families. It was also commonly referred to as the 'Greek empire' in the West, although this was not accepted by the people of the empire itself who claimed (technically correctly, for sure) to be a continuation of the ancient Roman state and thus the 'Roman Empire'.

In my understanding, while it did contain other nations, some of whose representatives even rose to the imperial purple (a few Armenians for example), those were still not of equal status, for example Bulgaria rose up in nationalist rebellion several times due to the oppression. In any case during the last centuries of it's existence at least, it pretty much only contained the greek-speaking heartlands (then on both sides of the Aegean), and at least then calling it greek seems justified?

All this said, I obviously agree with you that it is lunacy for someone in Greece to claim Istanbul or any other of the former greek regions held by Turkey today, as they have clear turkish majority now after the population exchanges in the 20s etc (Istanbul probably had way before), and the same goes for former Balkans possessions etc.

What is called the "Byzantine Empire" in West Europe wasn't a continuation of the Roman Empire; it was the Roman Empire. There is no point at which you can draw the line and say "alright, everything prior to this is the Roman Empire, everything after the Byzantine Empire". The fall of Rome certainly can't be the line, because the Roman Empire had had capitals outside of Rome before that. Neither can the shift to using Greek in administration, as Greek was widely spoken by the ruling class of the Empire and the Republic prior to that. Generally, it's incorrect to assign any nationality to the Empire as it wasn't a national state. It had a Graeco-Roman element, but also Gothic populations, Arab populations, Slavic etc. etc.

[Philosophos]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I think it's fair enough to say that the empire was greek? Greek was the official language for 800 years and especially towards the end of it's existence, it was mostly ruled by greek-speaking families. It was also commonly referred to as the 'Greek empire' in the West, although this was not accepted by the people of the empire itself who claimed (technically correctly, for sure) to be a continuation of the ancient Roman state and thus the 'Roman Empire'.

In my understanding, while it did contain other nations, some of whose representatives even rose to the imperial purple (a few Armenians for example), those were still not of equal status, for example Bulgaria rose up in nationalist rebellion several times due to the oppression. In any case during the last centuries of it's existence at least, it pretty much only contained the greek-speaking heartlands (then on both sides of the Aegean), and at least then calling it greek seems justified?

All this said, I obviously agree with you that it is lunacy for someone in Greece to claim Istanbul or any other of the former greek regions held by Turkey today, as they have clear turkish majority now after the population exchanges in the 20s etc (Istanbul probably had way before), and the same goes for former Balkans possessions etc.

Yes I agree with you, it was pretty much greek, but not in the sense they claim. We even have the "nickname" (i dont know how to say it otherwise) Romioi (it's prounounced somehow like romji) meaning that I'm greek, but it totally derives from roman. These people that lived there thought of themselves as romans not entirely greek. But still even though Istabul and other regions of Turkey used to have (some still have) greek minorities it doesn't justify their "need" to take back these lands. It has been turkish for many of hundreds of years. If someone came to my place and told me that I should move out I would be extremely furious believe that.

[Philosophos]

Again, you seem to be taking something that was possibly said by one person, presumably an extreme nationalist, as representative of how Macedonians in general think. That's as I said that Greeks think that there are no minorities in Greece (and to be honest, I have heard several Greeks, who probably consider themselves to be quite moderate, say this, whereas I haven't heard many Macedonians say that the Greek Macedonians are all Slavic Macedonians, although most of them will say that some of the Greek-speaking population has been Graecised fairly recently - which is true, as a matter of fact).

Be that as it may, that has nothing to do with the name Macedonians use for themselves. Perhaps it is confusing that the name for the nationality and the region is the same, but consider an example from Croatia. In Istria, we have:

(1) Istrians, that is, people living in Istria;
(2) Istriots, speakers of a Central Romance language; and
(3) Istro-Rumanians, speakers of an East Romance language, who have nothing to do with (Daco-)Rumanians at that.

I don't think any of these groups should change their name.

Also, no one knows for sure how many (Slavic) Macedonians there are in Greece, as the Greek government's position on minorities in Greece is "la la la I can't hear you".


I know these things I'm saying are very vague and seem that they have been said from one nationalist person and can't be taken as the rule, but I don't know what to believe anymore. I try to talk to Macedonians but I can't find any or Bulgarians about the issue and we suddenly end up arguing about stuff that had nothing to do with the manner (no we didn't do that, no we did that etc). That's why I uploaded this here so I could maybe find a Macedonian to clear some things. If I can't get some Macedonian, even a Serbian or a BUlgarian might be of a good help to really point out what are the true beliefs of these people so I can think about it.

[agnixie]

The minority of Macedonians living in Greece is around 15000 people or something.

I'm sure the official narrative is that, but 50000 is a lowball estimate of the likely remaining numbers and the regional split before the Balkan wars was a small majority bulgarian speaking in the country, a small majority jewish in Saloniki, with greeks an effective minority everywhere but the parts closest to Thessaly. All I'm seeing throughout the thread is someone clinging on ridiculous greek chauvinistic views. The amount of ethnic and religious cleansing involved in the construction of the balkan states (especially Serbia and Greece) is fucking staggering considering their loud claims of eternal victimhood.

[Sentinel]

Yes I agree with you, it was pretty much greek, but not in the sense they claim. We even have the "nickname" (i dont know how to say it otherwise) Romioi (it's prounounced somehow like romji) meaning that I'm greek, but it totally derives from roman. These people that lived there thought of themselves as romans not entirely greek. But still even though Istabul and other regions of Turkey used to have (some still have) greek minorities it doesn't justify their "need" to take back these lands. It has been turkish for many of hundreds of years. If someone came to my place and told me that I should move out I would be extremely furious believe that.

Agreed. I have read though (I am some kind of an amateur historian - nerd, if you will - when it comes to the Roman empire :o) that after the reconquest of Constantinople from the Latins, there was some kind of 'hellenistic' spirit reviving in the empire, which now only contained the greek speaking lands, even though the church for example was critical towards the term in itself for it's 'pagan' label.

Btw, anyone interested in the Byzantine empire, please see this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/zealots-thessalonica-t163118/index.html) old thread of mine, revive it if you wish. Those events in Thessalonica in the 1340s were quite interesting from a marxist viewpoint imo.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I know these things I'm saying are very vague and seem that they have been said from one nationalist person and can't be taken as the rule, but I don't know what to believe anymore. I try to talk to Macedonians but I can't find any or Bulgarians about the issue and we suddenly end up arguing about stuff that had nothing to do with the manner (no we didn't do that, no we did that etc). That's why I uploaded this here so I could maybe find a Macedonian to clear some things. If I can't get some Macedonian, even a Serbian or a BUlgarian might be of a good help to really point out what are the true beliefs of these people so I can think about it.

Well, the problem is that you're looking for "beliefs of the Macedonian people". They don't have a hive mind. The ruling class in Macedonia promotes all sorts of nationalist garbage, but it's mainly targeted at Albanians and other minorities in Macedonia. They're not going to invade Aegean Macedonia for god's sake. That would be ridiculous; just as extreme nationalists in Croatia basically claim everything in the immediate region including parts of Serbia, but the bourgeois government in Croatia isn't going to invade Serbia, although it will make life difficult for minorities in the territory they control.

[Philosophos]

I'm sure the official narrative is that, but 50000 is a lowball estimate of the likely remaining numbers and the regional split before the Balkan wars was a small majority bulgarian speaking in the country, a small majority jewish in Saloniki, with greeks an effective minority everywhere but the parts closest to Thessaly. All I'm seeing throughout the thread is someone clinging on ridiculous greek chauvinistic views. The amount of ethnic and religious cleansing involved in the construction of the balkan states (especially Serbia and Greece) is fucking staggering considering their loud claims of eternal victimhood.

I really don't think there are 50000 Macedonians living in Greece, but still I;m not sure. The Bulgarian speaking minority is not exactly bulgarian. They speak their own language yes and I don't know if they consider themselves Greeks or Bulgarians or Bulgarians that live in Greece or Greeks that also have different roots. We call them Pomaki and again I'm not sure about their numbers. I think the government has recognised them as a minority since everyone I know calls them like this and recognises them as a minority.
The jew minority in Thessaloniki is also recognised. I'm not very familiar with the minority subject cause pretty much nobody discusses about it, so I focused on other stuff that had to do with politics.

Again that's why I opened this thread, to see what's the proper thing to believe in. I never claimed that I'm not in a learning stage about many things including sexism. I'm here to learn not to just get pointed out by someone who doesn't even give me something to think about and just telling me that I'm a chauvinist.

You say about Greece being a victim all the time according to greeks. I completely agree with you. As many times as we've been victims so many times we made someone else the victim. I don't have any delusions on that. I'm not very familiar with the Serbian history, but I know many bad things that they have done and since Greece and Serbia call themselves brothers, that makes lots of sense.

[Philosophos]

Well, the problem is that you're looking for "beliefs of the Macedonian people". They don't have a hive mind. The ruling class in Macedonia promotes all sorts of nationalist garbage, but it's mainly targeted at Albanians and other minorities in Macedonia. They're not going to invade Aegean Macedonia for god's sake. That would be ridiculous; just as extreme nationalists in Croatia basically claim everything in the immediate region including parts of Serbia, but the bourgeois government in Croatia isn't going to invade Serbia, although it will make life difficult for minorities in the territory they control.

Well to be honest (talking in general about history and only using the names of the countries that we have here, not actually spreading paranoia) we have seen many times through history that the Big Guys of each time do all sorts of political propaganda and political games. Look Ukraine and Russia for example. Macedonia now has on it's back the USA because Obama and his gang are trying to stop Russia from getting that pipe of gas running through Macedonia. That would "hurt" the USA economy, so any time they can create havoc and start a war and so on.

I know this seems unlike to happen, but many people also thought unlike the Crimea situation would happen. It all depends on what the governments want to do.

I'm looking for a Macedonian that is not a nationalist. I once found a guy here in revleft, but I think both of us were pretty young at the time and I was much more "immature" so to say. Still we both had our minds open and we had a very nice conversation.

I'm also really amazed by the number of similarities the balkan countries share seeing you talk about Croatia. A while ago I had no idea of the history of your country, only some Yugoslavian history and so on.

[Blake's Baby]

Say what now? Seriously that's the first time I hear something like that and I have Albanian friends and we talk quite freely about political stuff, so if there was something like that I think they would have told me. Not trying to call you a liar or something, but that really made me wonder...

Well, I'm not trying to call you a liar either, so we're even.

Go looking on the internet. There's some really stupid and obnoxious stuff out there.

[Dean]

Hi I'm Greek and I currently live in Bulgaria and I have this question wondering around my mind: What is the left point of view on the Macedonian name dispute?
What would their national identity be otherwise? I don't think I've seen a single alternative national identity mentioned here. Of course national claims are illegitimate, like all property, but in the context of Macedonia it is a little absurd to be tearing down their national identity especially when so many others have such tenuous foundations.

This is what the Macedonian Region is according to Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png/250px-Greater_Macedonia.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28region%29

[agnixie]

What would their national identity be otherwise? I don't think I've seen a single alternative national identity mentioned here. Of course national claims are illegitimate, like all property, but in the context of Macedonia it is a little absurd to be tearing down their national identity especially when so many others have such tenuous foundations.

This is what the Macedonian Region is according to Wikipedia:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png/250px-Greater_Macedonia.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28region%29

Probably Bulgarian and Albanian, but that would require the country to disappear. To be honest, while the name dispute is mostly due to Greek chauvinism, Macedonia as distinct from Bulgaria is mostly a Yugoslavian construct; the first bulgarian patriarchal see was even in Macedonia (in a region which is, ironically, mostly Albanian today and was probably mixed Vlach and Albanian before that)